Samak Sundaravej was elected

[sriracha john]

"Killing Is Normal".... Murdering Monks is Normal....

Suppression of activists in Burma normal: Samak

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej Sunday described Burmese leader Senior General Than Shwe as being religious person and killings and suppressions in the neighboring country were "normal' things.

Speaking during his Samak's Talk program broadcast live on Channel 11, Samak said Burma is a Buddhist country.

"Killings and suppressions are normal there but we have to know the fact," Samak said.

"And Senior Than Shwe practices meditation. He said he prays in the morning … and the country has been in peace and order."

- The Nation

==========================================

A lunatic is running the asylum...

[Plus]

In another thread we talked about possible reception Thailand's Foreign Minister will get in the UK and the US. Will the status of being democratically elected override statements like the above?

[jasreeve17]

Just when you think that his big mouth has reached its pinnacle he comes out with more.

How embarrassing is this guy to everyday Thais and the countries credability. Unbelievable.

[Tony Clifton]

[sriracha john]

PM Comments on Burma’s Suppression Activities

Speaking after his return from an official visit to Burma, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej complimented Burmese junta leader General Than Shwe for being a religious person, claiming that his orders into the killings and suppressions of activists in the country was normal.

Speaking during his live program on Channel 11 Sunday, the premier claimed that Burma is a Buddhist country similar to Thailand, adding that killings and suppressions in the country are considered normal. Samak claims the international community seems to be uninformed on the facts behind such moves.

The Prime Minister traveled to Burma on Friday morning to discuss potential collaboration between Thailand and Burma in the government’s engagement policies, hoping that such a move would help revive national conciliation and democracy for the troubled nation.

During the official visit, the premier met with Burmese junta leader General Than Shwe and Burmese Prime Minister Thein Sein to discuss the strengthening bilateral relations.

Samak asserted that Senior General Than Shwe said he normally practices meditation and frequently prays in the morning.

The Burmese junta leader claimed that his country has been in peace and order. Furthermore, the Prime Minister compared democratic rules between the two nations, saying that Burma is similar to Thailand in the sense that democracy has not been fully developed.

The premier said the Constitution of Burma is quite similar to that of Thailand, which is seen as “half-baked.”

- Thailand Outlook

[plachon]

PM Comments on Burma’s Suppression Activities

Speaking after his return from an official visit to Burma, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej complimented Burmese junta leader General Than Shwe for being a religious person, claiming that his orders into the killings and suppressions of activists in the country was normal.

Speaking during his live program on Channel 11 Sunday, the premier claimed that Burma is a Buddhist country similar to Thailand, adding that killings and suppressions in the country are considered normal. Samak claims the international community seems to be uninformed on the facts behind such moves.

The Prime Minister traveled to Burma on Friday morning to discuss potential collaboration between Thailand and Burma in the government’s engagement policies, hoping that such a move would help revive national conciliation and democracy for the troubled nation.

During the official visit, the premier met with Burmese junta leader General Than Shwe and Burmese Prime Minister Thein Sein to discuss the strengthening bilateral relations.

Samak asserted that Senior General Than Shwe said he normally practices meditation and frequently prays in the morning.

The Burmese junta leader claimed that his country has been in peace and order. Furthermore, the Prime Minister compared democratic rules between the two nations, saying that Burma is similar to Thailand in the sense that democracy has not been fully developed.

The premier said the Constitution of Burma is quite similar to that of Thailand, which is seen as “half-baked.”

- Thailand Outlook

Let's see the "democracy at all costs", Thaksinophiles and Samak-excusers, try to rationalise and find a glint of reason in this "slip of the tongue" from the esteemed PM.

C'mon Younghusband et al., do yourselves proud and justify this one!

[younghusband]

C'mon Younghusband et al., do yourselves proud and justify this one!

Do me the courtesy of actually reading what I have said on Burma.

[plachon]

C'mon Younghusband et al., do yourselves proud and justify this one!

Do me the courtesy of actually reading what I have said on Burma.

It's what you say about Samak and Toxin that concerns me, to tell the truth.

OK, I accept that you are not a big fan of Samak, but the lengths you have gone to excuse Toxin, leave me mystified and mortified.

Edited March 17, 2008 by plachon

[younghusband]

C'mon Younghusband et al., do yourselves proud and justify this one!

Do me the courtesy of actually reading what I have said on Burma.

It's what you say about Samak and Toxin that concerns me, to tell the truth.

OK, I accept that you are not a big fan of Samak, but the lengths you have gone to excuse Toxin, leave me mystified and mortified.

If my comments on Thaksin have left you mystified I apologise.Actually I'm not much more of a fan of Thaksin than I am of Samak.I do think however Thaksin is a significant figure in the evolution of Thai politics and the fury with which tired but angry old men representing certain interests (let's call them the Bangkok elite) belabour him says as much about their own self serving and selfish agenda as it does about Thaksin.I think Thaksin is a substantially gifted but flawed personality whom history will judge more as a catalyst for change than someone who imposed his own mark.In a sense I think he is already irrelevant.Thai politics has changed forever.

[Plus]

You are forgetting that "angry old men" was not all opposition Thaksin faced, and eventually about half of his party turned back on him and it's not certain they'll ever patch up their differences.

The country is moving on, true, but your promised changes are nowhere to be seen, cos you are looking in the wrong places.

[sriracha john]

He's quite a progressive criminal justice advocate with his innovative ideas....

With a distinctive Thaksin-like micromanagement style...

PM warns of public shaming of offenders

People who steal public property and plunder the nation's forests deserve the harshest penalties PM Samak said yesterday. If he could, he would cage and shame offenders by putting them on public display at Sanam Luang.

He urged the public to report directly to him :D any damage to national resources and public utilities, such as the theft of nuts and bolts from power pylons, illegal logging and encroachment. He would handle the problems himself and push for an eye for an eye.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/19Mar2008_news08.php

[younghusband]

The country is moving on, true, but your promised changes are nowhere to be seen, cos you are looking in the wrong places.

As any student of history knows fundamental changes don't happen overnight.I wouldn't even rule out another effort by the feudal/military/corporate elite to hang on to their entrenched position.But events in Thailand in the last year or so have acted as a catalyst.Slowly and sometimes imperceptibly Thailand is becoming a more equitable society.It's as remorseless as gravity itself.

The huge flaw with your thinking is that you believe that somehow Thailand is not as other countries, and that special rules apply in terms of political and social developments.Wrong on both counts.

[sriracha john]

EDITORIAL

Burma policy needs rethink

PM Samak's remarks last Sunday on his weekly television talk show were ill-considered, even for one who has made it something of a trademark to leave his listeners scratching their heads.

In justifying expanding economic ties with Burma, Samak dismissed that country's horrible record on human rights by saying: "Burma is a Buddhist country. Burma's leaders meditate. They say the country lives in peace." Coming just 6 months after the ruling junta ordered the brutal suppression of peacefully protesting Buddhist monks and their followers, Samak's statement is an affront not only to Buddhists, but to all people of conscience. While Samak's words on the talk show may not have been well thought out, clearly that is not the case with this government's policy on Burma, which is pretty much a resumption of the one under deposed PM Thaksin, although Thaksin at least had the good sense to keep it very low profile. The new out-in-the-open relationship will put the country squarely at odds with the European Union and United States, two of Thailand's most important strategic and trading partners. Japan also has begun to take a tougher stance on Burma since the September crackdown, which left a 50-year-old Japanese journalist dead.

Editorial continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/19Mar2008_news21.php

[Plus]

The country is moving on, true, but your promised changes are nowhere to be seen, cos you are looking in the wrong places.

As any student of history knows fundamental changes don't happen overnight.I wouldn't even rule out another effort by the feudal/military/corporate elite to hang on to their entrenched position.

Another effort? They haven't paused for a second. The junta tried to stop Thailand being taken over by corporations and low life scumbags but they obviously haven't succeeded.

But events in Thailand in the last year or so have acted as a catalyst.Slowly and sometimes imperceptibly Thailand is becoming a more equitable society.It's as remorseless as gravity itself.

Are you really one of those half wits from the left who think that Thaksin brought democracy to Thailand?

The huge flaw with your thinking is that you believe that somehow Thailand is not as other countries, and that special rules apply in terms of political and social developments.Wrong on both counts.

Yes, it is inevitable from all historic precedents that Thailand will be ruled by big business interests acting through subservient politicians on their payroll, turning equitable society into a pipe dream.

[younghusband]

The country is moving on, true, but your promised changes are nowhere to be seen, cos you are looking in the wrong places.

As any student of history knows fundamental changes don't happen overnight.I wouldn't even rule out another effort by the feudal/military/corporate elite to hang on to their entrenched position.

Another effort? They haven't paused for a second. The junta tried to stop Thailand being taken over by corporations and low life scumbags but they obviously haven't succeeded.

But events in Thailand in the last year or so have acted as a catalyst.Slowly and sometimes imperceptibly Thailand is becoming a more equitable society.It's as remorseless as gravity itself.

Are you really one of those half wits from the left who think that Thaksin brought democracy to Thailand?

The huge flaw with your thinking is that you believe that somehow Thailand is not as other countries, and that special rules apply in terms of political and social developments.Wrong on both counts.

Yes, it is inevitable from all historic precedents that Thailand will be ruled by big business interests acting through subservient politicians on their payroll, turning equitable society into a pipe dream.

Not much here to comment on as Plus is in rant mode.Anyway just a quick reminder a propos Thaksin - catalyst rather than harbinger of democracy.

[traveller5000]

"Killings and suppressions are normal there but we have to know the fact," Samak said.

Killing monks 'normal' ? <deleted>. That is disgraceful.

So are the voters that voted this tyrant into power, they have to accept responsibility too.

[Plus]

... just a quick reminder a propos Thaksin - catalyst rather than harbinger of democracy.

He has proven that it's possible to run Thailand like some kind of a fascist state and call it a democracy at the same time, the idea has taken life of its own now. You can say Thaksin was a catalyst because no one believed it would be possible given to Thailand's vibrant liberal traditions.

Right now his supporters, as natural fascists would do, are ready to crash any opposition in the name of unity and stability. Can you explain how that would lead to democracy?

"Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole." - from wikipedia.

[traveller5000]

just a quick reminder a propos Thaksin - catalyst rather than harbinger of democracy.

Yes I too fail to understand your choice of words, unless you mean in the sense of destroying (through corruption) the old systems of governance to make room for a new, presumably more mature democratic system of governance to emerge.

[plachon]

The country is moving on, true, but your promised changes are nowhere to be seen, cos you are looking in the wrong places.

As any student of history knows fundamental changes don't happen overnight.I wouldn't even rule out another effort by the feudal/military/corporate elite to hang on to their entrenched position.

Another effort? They haven't paused for a second. The junta tried to stop Thailand being taken over by corporations and low life scumbags but they obviously haven't succeeded.

But events in Thailand in the last year or so have acted as a catalyst.Slowly and sometimes imperceptibly Thailand is becoming a more equitable society.It's as remorseless as gravity itself.

Are you really one of those half wits from the left who think that Thaksin brought democracy to Thailand?

The huge flaw with your thinking is that you believe that somehow Thailand is not as other countries, and that special rules apply in terms of political and social developments.Wrong on both counts.

Yes, it is inevitable from all historic precedents that Thailand will be ruled by big business interests acting through subservient politicians on their payroll, turning equitable society into a pipe dream.

Not much here to comment on as Plus is in rant mode.Anyway just a quick reminder a propos Thaksin - catalyst rather than harbinger of democracy.

Pull the other one YH! Toxin ripped democracy to shreds, trampled on the remains and then tried to bury it, before he was diverted (not stopped - the tragedy!) from his task. Now he is back on the job, and it is only PAD that are making anything like a concerted public stand.

How many times did we hear during the 18 months exile "don't worry about Thaksin, he's spent, he's irrelevant, out of the picture, move on, etc."? The credibility of those people is in tatters, yet still they persist on pretending that Thaksin is not a threat to the wider democratic progression in Thailand. "Catalyst of democracy" - about as much as Phibun or Sarit were ever "catalysts of democracy".

[steveromagnino]

The country is moving on, true, but your promised changes are nowhere to be seen, cos you are looking in the wrong places.

As any student of history knows fundamental changes don't happen overnight.I wouldn't even rule out another effort by the feudal/military/corporate elite to hang on to their entrenched position.But events in Thailand in the last year or so have acted as a catalyst.Slowly and sometimes imperceptibly Thailand is becoming a more equitable society.It's as remorseless as gravity itself.

The huge flaw with your thinking is that you believe that somehow Thailand is not as other countries, and that special rules apply in terms of political and social developments.Wrong on both counts.

Most of the same families who supported the key governments since Prem are still in the same positions, whether it was the Dems or TRT or now PPP.

The main difference has been the distribution of the wealth between those families; under TRT with more concentrated power thanks to an absolute majority and a PM who was actually one of those families rather than a frontman the degree of enrichment was perhaps a little different, but I cannot really think of hardly any policies that changed this so called entrenched position for the families concerned. Sure maybe ItalThai got more work, Chorgunchung got less, but that has been the swing/roundabout for a while. CP as always supports everyone; Seea Charoen is non-political and just drifts along fine.

Proof of this upcountry - the same political families are in power now that were in power in the mid 90s for the most part. no real change in other words to the faces.

The only force for change is in the politicians realising that the poor can be purchased with government policy rather than with handouts every few years; hence why every party proposed handouts at this last election.

That in itself is a bad thing as it isn't what the poor need, but if that is the catalyst to bring on a true statesman who can give them what they need, then so be it. The best thing perhaps from this is that the poor now have a realisation that they actually have some power to cause change; sadly they don't really know what they want yet. But they will soon enough when (IMHO) a statesman who is representative of the rural sector emerges as a 2nd tier party as part of a pro business coalition, and together the country moves forward.

The only major forces for change in the corporate sector have been the major deregulation and opening of the economy under the Dems, and various FTAs and compliance with WTO/other regulations since - the rest has been a series of smaller changes in response to globalisation, competition and other forces despite the inept handling of the economy by a series of blowhards from Somkid to J Ming as he is now known. Unless controlling the price of pork or fiddling with selling state owned assets to yourself is something you see as a true catalyst for change ;-)

The biggest change in Thailand could be one of three - that the country goes corporate, in which case we see a bigger income gap than we do now as Bangkok continues to streak ahead....(not that the income disparity is similar to USA) - that the country develops some sort of welfare state and improves the plight of the poor funded by increased taxes on the ever suffering middle class (who basically fund much of the entire rural economy now via taxes and donations) and a resulting lacklustre business growth...or we see a genuine economic miracle - massive efficiency increases via state owned asset sell offs, education improvements, infrastructure improvements, mind set changes on the part of SMEs and exporters, deregulation.

I've seen the last one in NZ which caused 6 years of ups and downs (mostly downs) then a 2 year recession with farmers walking off their land. And there has been little looking back ever since.

With the TRT/PPP approach, that 3rd option seems further away than ever before. more likely THailand is mired in the 2nd option to keep in power, coupled with major trough feeding by the same families who have been successful for the last 20 years.

Oh joy.

[younghusband]

Pull the other one YH! Toxin ripped democracy to shreds, trampled on the remains and then tried to bury it, before he was diverted (not stopped - the tragedy!) from his task. Now he is back on the job, and it is only PAD that are making anything like a concerted public stand.

Leaving aside the very debatable reference to PAD's current role , I think the position on Thaksin and democracy is as follows.Before Thaksin the rural majority was patronised, ignored or exploited.Thaksin changed all that, and now the views of the majority cannot be ignored in the same way.

None of this means Thaksin is a good man or a visionary or a statesman.It simply means he was a catalyst.Thai politics have changed forever.

[traveller5000]

I think he was more like a catalyst for an electocracy than a democracy.

[sriracha john]

Samak is practically a pauper...

Abhisit richer than Samak

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej and his wife have assets worth Bt25.9 million while opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva and his wife have assets worth Bt50.83 million.

The Office of the National Counter Corruption Commission Thursday announced assets statements of new MPs.

According to the announcement, Samak has Bt9.08 million worth of assets while his wife has Bt16.98 million worth of assets.

Abhisit has Bt36.19 million worth of assets while his wife has Bt14.64 million.

- The Nation (today)

[Plus]

...Before Thaksin the rural majority was patronised, ignored or exploited.Thaksin changed all that....

Are you saying that Thaksin and TRT haven't become rural majority's biggest patrons in living memory in all practical aspects? Or that they haven't exploited the poor (or poors' votes) to enrich themselves?

A few days ago people accused you or being pro-Thaksin. I don't believe you are, but your faith in his system of government is at least suspicious.

[younghusband]

Samak is practically a pauper...

Abhisit richer than Samak

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej and his wife have assets worth Bt25.9 million while opposition leader Abhisit Vejjajiva and his wife have assets worth Bt50.83 million.

The Office of the National Counter Corruption Commission Thursday announced assets statements of new MPs.

According to the announcement, Samak has Bt9.08 million worth of assets while his wife has Bt16.98 million worth of assets.

Abhisit has Bt36.19 million worth of assets while his wife has Bt14.64 million.

- The Nation (today)

It's like an itch that won't go away, ie the wealth of prominent Thais.Forget Samak but I'm assuming the figure of Baht 50 million for Abhisit is correct.Off the top of my head that seems about right for a Thai of his level although I don't know of course how much he inherited.It contrasts with the multi millions of dollars owned by generals and civil servants who all their lives have only earned small salaries.I think one has to accept that these people are disgustingly corrupt:it's the only explanation notwithstanding the attempts of some on this forum to explain this away for the likes of Surayud etc.

[sriracha john]

A perspective of things...

100 asset declarations of the Thaksin Cabinet (listed from the most to the least).

It wouldn't be surprising if these politicians' combined wealth, albeit under-reported, represents the single biggest chunk of Thailand's resources... than any other group of 100 individuals in the country.

bn= billion, m=million

1. Thaksin Shinawatra 506,000,000

Pinthongta (daughter) 29,419,000,000

Panthongtae (son) 22,415,000,000

Bonnapot Damapong

(brother-in-law) 19,761,000,000

Podjaman (wife) 8,800,000,000

Phaethongthan (daughter) 3,300,000,000

Yingluk Shinwatra (sister) 978,000,000

Busaba Damapong

(sister-in-law) 7,330,000

2. Kantati Supamongkol Bt4.5 bn

Sopawan (wife) Bt35 m

3. Anutin Charnveerakul Bt2.13 bn

Sanongnuch (wife) Bt2.3 bn

Kids Bt8.2 m

4. Pongthep Thepkanjana Bt231 m

Panida (wife) Bt2.6 bn

Kids Bt19.5 m

5. Suriya Jeungrungreungkij Bt751 m

Surisa (wife) Bt460 m

6. Sudarat Keyurapan Bt862 m

Somyos (husband) Bt36 m

7. Newin Chidchob Bt143 m

Karuna (wife) Bt761 m

8. Pongsak Raktapongpaisarn Bt101 m

Kids Bt761 m

9. Surakiat Satienthai Bt461 m

Sutawarn (wife) Bt235 m

10. Suwat Liptapanlop Bt45.2 m

Poonpirom (wife) Bt513 m

11. Suriya Larpsuthisin Bt545 m

12. Pracha Maleenont Bt386 m

Patricia Mary (wife) Bt52 m

13. Somchai Suntornwat Bt160 m

Wannipa (wife) Bt167 m

14. Purachai Piemsomboon Bt252 m

Somsri (wife) Bt54 m

15. Adisai Potaramik Bt212 m

Pichanee (wife) Bt12 m

16. Uraiwan Tientong Bt154 m

Sanoh (husband) Bt67 m

17. Viset Joopibarn Bt84.5 m

Supanee (wife) Bt98 m

18. Tanong Bhidhya Bt169 m

Maturos (wife) Bt16.7 m

19. Surapong Seubwonglee Bt30 m

Pranee (wife) Bt137 m

20. Chaiyos Sasomsup Bt3.6 m

Chonchinee (wife) Bt154 m

21. Sora-at Klinpratum Bt110 m

Pornrat (wife) Bt8 m

Kids Bt14 m

22. Jaturon Chaisaeng Bt19 m

Jiraporn (wife) Bt90 m

23. Pokin Polakul Bt22 m

Rungrawee (wife) Bt80 m

24. Suchai Jaroenrattanakul Bt113 m

25. Chaovalit Yongjaiyud Bt11.3 m

Pankreu (wife) Bt81 m

26. Sontaya Kunpleum Bt67 m

Sukumol (wife) Bt12.7 m

27. Chidchai Wannasatit Bt27.1 m

? (wife) Bt60 m

28. Somkid Jatusripitak Bt19 m

Anurachanee (wife) Bt64 m

29. Anurak Jureemas Bt73 m

30. Preecha Laohapongchana Bt58 m

31. Chaiyanan Jaroensiri Bt55 m

Titima (wife) Bt1.6 m

32. Kongsak Wantana Bt33.6 m

Salinlawan (wife) Bt20.5 m

33. Suwit Khunkitti Bt39.3 m

Lawan (wife) Bt13.5 m

34. Korn Dabbaransi Bt38.5 m

Rapeepun (wife) Bt74.5 m

35. Prommin Lertsuriyadej Bt18.6 m

Mataya (wife) Bt11 m

36. Thammarak Israngkura

Na Ayudhya Bt17 m

Wanida (wife) Bt10.5 m

37. Wattana Meungsuk Bt23.5 m

38. Vissanu Kreungam Bt17 m

Watcharaporn (wife) Bt15 m

39. Sermsak Pongpanij Bt12 m

Rabiebrat (wife) Bt14 m

40. Poontham Vejayachai Bt9 m

Apinya (wife) Bt16 m

41. Somsak Thepsutin Bt13 m

Anongwan (wife) Bt10 m

42. Pravit Rattanapien Bt14 m

Pacharaporn (wife) Bt5 m

43. Wan Muhammad Nor

Maha Bt17.2 m

44. Adisorn Piengkate Bt1 m

Yaowanij (wife) Bt12 m

45. Suranand Vejjajiva Bt6.4 m

Nuchanart (wife) Bt5.4 m

46. Warathep Rattanakorn Bt4.3 m

Ornuma (wife) Bt4.7 m

47. Yongyud Tiyapairat Bt3.8 m

Salukjit (wife) Bt3.3 m

48. Pinij Jarusombat Bt7 m

49. Rung Kaewdang Bt923,000

Pongsai (wife) Bt4.6 m

Edited March 20, 2008 by sriracha john

[younghusband]

Useful list of asset declarations from SRJ.What's interesting to me is that apart from the top 3, the rest are more or less what one might expect.As to Thaksin's huge wealth (which I asume was the point of the post) there's no real mystery how that was aquired, ie legally in business albeit in a monopolistic and less than transparent market.

Still leaves the mystery of exactly how senior generals ,policemen and civil servants become so rich.

[Old Man River]

Useful list of asset declarations from SRJ.What's interesting to me is that apart from the top 3, the rest are more or less what one might expect.As to Thaksin's huge wealth (which I asume was the point of the post) there's no real mystery how that was aquired, ie legally in business albeit in a monopolistic and less than transparent market.

Still leaves the mystery of exactly how senior generals ,policemen and civil servants become so rich.

For some, property was purchased many years ago very cheaply by their families and over the years has appreciated greatly in value. For others, well, you know.

[sriracha john]

Still leaves the mystery of exactly how policemen become so rich.

Today:

Interior Minister Police Captain Chalerm Yubamrung declared his assets at 109,630,507 baht

[Tony Clifton]

Useful list of asset declarations from SRJ.What's interesting to me is that apart from the top 3, the rest are more or less what one might expect.As to Thaksin's huge wealth (which I asume was the point of the post) there's no real mystery how that was aquired, ie legally in business albeit in a monopolistic and less than transparent market.

Still leaves the mystery of exactly how senior generals ,policemen and civil servants become so rich.

Hmm, starting from #2 all the way down to 49, none mention brother/sister. brother in law/sister in law/uncle/aunt/gardener/maid/ etc. Surely each each family has it's own little pyramid.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Tony Clifton