How Do Bar Owners Get A Visa And Wp ?

[paul1970]

I am in Thailand on a non-imm B visa and WP due to a skilled job with medical lasers but have often wondered of ways of staying in Thailand should my company decide that I was no longer needed in Thailand.

I could not see myself working for a Thai company and certainly not as an English teacher so that would probably limit me to becoming a bar/restaurant/shop owner.

Now I've often wondered how is it possible to have a visa and WP as a bar owner, so I was wondering if anybody could enlighten me as to what type of visa one would get to run a bar and how could you obtain a WP to it as I see it any Thai person could run a bar so I would have thought it would have been on the list of careers that falangs don't need to do ?

Hopefully somebody will be able to enlighten me, TIA.

[midasthailand]

I am in Thailand on a non-imm B visa and WP due to a skilled job with medical lasers but have often wondered of ways of staying in Thailand should my company decide that I was no longer needed in Thailand.

I could not see myself working for a Thai company and certainly not as an English teacher so that would probably limit me to becoming a bar/restaurant/shop owner.

Now I've often wondered how is it possible to have a visa and WP as a bar owner, so I was wondering if anybody could enlighten me as to what type of visa one would get to run a bar and how could you obtain a WP to it as I see it any Thai person could run a bar so I would have thought it would have been on the list of careers that falangs don't need to do ?

Hopefully somebody will be able to enlighten me, TIA.

Good question, well asked Paul. I too would like to know the answer to that question. Perhaps Pattayapete may have an answer, since he is in the process of opening a "beer garden" at the start of walking street in Pattaya. Hopefully some well informed TV member will illuminate us with a comprehensive answer.

[farangmal]

I am in Thailand on a non-imm B visa and WP due to a skilled job with medical lasers but have often wondered of ways of staying in Thailand should my company decide that I was no longer needed in Thailand.

I could not see myself working for a Thai company and certainly not as an English teacher so that would probably limit me to becoming a bar/restaurant/shop owner.

Now I've often wondered how is it possible to have a visa and WP as a bar owner, so I was wondering if anybody could enlighten me as to what type of visa one would get to run a bar and how could you obtain a WP to it as I see it any Thai person could run a bar so I would have thought it would have been on the list of careers that falangs don't need to do ?

Hopefully somebody will be able to enlighten me, TIA.

Good question, well asked Paul. I too would like to know the answer to that question. Perhaps Pattayapete may have an answer, since he is in the process of opening a "beer garden" at the start of walking street in Pattaya. Hopefully some well informed TV member will illuminate us with a comprehensive answer.

What even confuses and puzzles me more is how all the Indian tailors get work permits and visas. Most are younger guys under 50 and they stand all day touting for business.

[Naam]

What even confuses and puzzles me more is how all the Indian tailors get work permits and visas. Most are younger guys under 50 and they stand all day touting for business.

most of these touting ethnic Indians are thai citizens. they don't need work permits and of course they don't need visas. as simple as that.

[Guest]

Bar owners are subject to the same rules as anyone else in getting WP. I know two guys who own bars as working managing directors, with quite a decent number (30+) of salaried staff in each. I've no idea how anyone can get a WP for a beer bar.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Bar owners are subject to the same rules as anyone else in getting WP. I know two guys who own bars as working managing directors, with quite a decent number (30+) of salaried staff in each. I've no idea how anyone can get a WP for a beer bar.

There'd be little chance. The Government ( for some reason ) don't view bar ownership as a worthwhile profession,.

[jbaldwin]

A large number of bars are owned and run by Thai ladies married to falang. Legally the husband's involvement is limited to sitting at the bar and drinking

[paul1970]

Bar owners are subject to the same rules as anyone else in getting WP. I know two guys who own bars as working managing directors, with quite a decent number (30+) of salaried staff in each. I've no idea how anyone can get a WP for a beer bar.

There'd be little chance. The Government ( for some reason ) don't view bar ownership as a worthwhile profession,.

Hence the reason for my question ? There are so many falang here running bars etc, so how do they do it, what Visa and how do they get a WP as I assume they all pay tax etc ? Surely there must be someone who knows ?

[aazA]

Bar owners are subject to the same rules as anyone else in getting WP. I know two guys who own bars as working managing directors, with quite a decent number (30+) of salaried staff in each. I've no idea how anyone can get a WP for a beer bar.

There'd be little chance. The Government ( for some reason ) don't view bar ownership as a worthwhile profession,.

Hence the reason for my question ? There are so many falang here running bars etc, so how do they do it, what Visa and how do they get a WP as I assume they all pay tax etc ? Surely there must be someone who knows ?

uu

How old are u paul,50 or older one year extension of stay,which i had when i had a bar in pattaya in my wife,s name.

[paul1970]

Bar owners are subject to the same rules as anyone else in getting WP. I know two guys who own bars as working managing directors, with quite a decent number (30+) of salaried staff in each. I've no idea how anyone can get a WP for a beer bar.

There'd be little chance. The Government ( for some reason ) don't view bar ownership as a worthwhile profession,.

Hence the reason for my question ? There are so many falang here running bars etc, so how do they do it, what Visa and how do they get a WP as I assume they all pay tax etc ? Surely there must be someone who knows ?

uu

How old are u paul,50 or older one year extension of stay,which i had when i had a bar in pattaya in my wife,s name.

37, so is that it, most of the bar owners are over 50's and the business in the wife's name, sounds risky.

[sweetchariot]

Paul's not 50.....yet.

The vast majority of bar owners do as previously mentioned, the wife owns the bar, and officially they are not involved. They can stay here any number of ways - Non imm O which I have, 3 monthly border runs and a trip back to the UK every 15 months. If they are married they can get a married extension if they can prove joint taxed income of 40k per month, retirement extension for over 50's 800k in the bank or 65k per month, or a combination of the 2. Alot of them are surviving on tourist visas.

Now there are some that have the full non-b visa with work permit. They have done this by setting up a Ltd Company with 2m baht, and at least 4 staff. They then declare themselves as 'development manager' or some meaningless title to baffle the authorities into believing they have an important role to play that a Thai can't do.

I know several guys who have done it this way, but there are much easier ways to get a visa and stay here legitimately.

[Sunbelt Asia]

I am in Thailand on a non-imm B visa and WP due to a skilled job with medical lasers but have often wondered of ways of staying in Thailand should my company decide that I was no longer needed in Thailand.

I could not see myself working for a Thai company and certainly not as an English teacher so that would probably limit me to becoming a bar/restaurant/shop owner.

Now I've often wondered how is it possible to have a visa and WP as a bar owner, so I was wondering if anybody could enlighten me as to what type of visa one would get to run a bar and how could you obtain a WP to it as I see it any Thai person could run a bar so I would have thought it would have been on the list of careers that falangs don't need to do ?

Hopefully somebody will be able to enlighten me, TIA.

It is straight forward. We have done many of these for owners. A owner/ shareholder or even a foreign employee of a bar can be the Manging Director of a Thai Limited Company or a General Manager or Manager of the business. You can get a work permit to manage your investment or oversee the investment for someone else. The extension of stay permit based on business has the same requirements if you are the MD,GM or manager of a factory or hotel, etc. Nothing is dodging or have to know someone. If you are an American you can own it 100% in your name with a sole proprietorship or 99.99 % with a Thai Limited Co.

Where people get in trouble is putting it in the gf's name or not getting a work permit.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Indo-Siam]

In the world of small bars, here is the real issue: VAT (Value Added Tax)

In the world of small bars, all the food-chain suppliers (beverages, ice. etc) are Thai-owned businesses that operate on a cash basis. Regardless of how much income they really make, they declare less than 1.8 million baht per year in revenue - and thus do not have to register for VAT, nor collect VAT.

If a company that operates a bar wishes to sponsor a foreigner for a work permit, then the company MUST register for VAT - because that is a requirement of the Labor Ministry. That means that the company MUST charge and collect VAT on all revenues it earns - meaning, on all sales. So - whatever the income it reports, it must divide this amount by 1.07, then subtract the result from 1.0 - and then must pay the difference to the Revenue Department. The key point here is that because all suppliers to the bar do NOT collect VAT, the company has no "VAT paid out" to subtract from the VAT collected on revenue - so the company must basically donate 6.55% of its top-line income to the tax authorities.

So - figure out what kind of gross profit a bar earns on gross sales - come up with a percentage - let's say 35%. Now- subtract 6.54% from that amount. You've just given away 18.7& of your profit, compared to the Thai managed bar next door, that sells at the same prices you do.

So - it is almost unheard of for a company that sponsors a work permit to also be the entity operating a bar. There is a fairly simple strategy (business structure/approach) to work around this problem. We're happy to assist clients to do just that.

Steve Sykes

Indo-Siam Group

thaistartup.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

If a company that operates a bar wishes to sponsor a foreigner for a work permit, then the company MUST register for VAT - because that is a requirement of the Labor Ministry.

If you are a sole proprietorship as a foreigner, you do not need to register for Vat until your sales reach 1.8 million Baht just like a Thai businessman.

The key point here is that because all suppliers to the bar do NOT collect VAT, the company has no "VAT paid out" to subtract from the VAT collected on revenue - so the company must basically donate 6.55% of its top-line income to the tax authorities.

May of been the case a number of years ago but all of our alcohol distributors charges Vat which they are required to do.

So - figure out what kind of gross profit a bar earns on gross sales - come up with a percentage - let's say 35%. Now- subtract 6.54% from that amount. You've just given away 18.7& of your profit, compared to the Thai managed bar next door, that sells at the same prices you do.

Its hard to generalise like this as I can show you Thai bars or restaurants that charge Vat and I can show you foreign bars or foreign restaurants that are in the Vat system as well. The same as some Thai bars don't charge and some foreign bars don't collect Vat as well. Its simply not black or white.

But I understand your point with SOME outlets . At the end of the day its up to the businessman, how he wants to conduct himself.

If you use vendors that collect Vat and you do not collect Vat from your customers. You are giving up around 4 %. No reason if you are a legitimate businessman not to charge Vat if you are in the VAT system and give this 4% up. IMHO, If you have a better atmosphere than other places, people won't stop coming to your place over 70 Baht on a 1,000 Baht Bill.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Indo-Siam]

Greg -

I think you are talking about places like Subway, or Hard Rock, or Gullivers - where all the workers are registered employees, and prices are set up specifically for that venue, employees are not "bar fine-able" and the "check bin" is a machine-printed receipt - and your Sole Proprietor comments apply only to Americans..

I'm talking about the 10,000 small bars where "bar fines" are a revenue generator, and none of the bar-girls are on the books, and the fifty bars in a row all charge the exact same price for a Singha - and none of the suppliers charge VAT. Perhaps 3% or 4% of those have American involvement.

It is my impression (possibly mistaken) that the OP wasn't asking about Gullivers, or The Londoner - he was asking about all the "shotgun" beer bars crammed into every corner, appearing to have farang managers.

Your answers are appropriate for the level of establishment that sells food, and doesn't collect bar fines.

Cheers!

Steve

[Sunbelt Asia]

Greg -

I think you are talking about places like Subway, or Hard Rock, or Gullivers - where all the workers are registered employees, and prices are set up specifically for that venue, employees are not "bar fine-able" and the "check bin" is a machine-printed receipt - and your Sole Proprietor comments apply only to Americans..

I'm talking about the 10,000 small bars where "bar fines" are a revenue generator, and none of the bar-girls are on the books, and the fifty bars in a row all charge the exact same price for a Singha - and none of the suppliers charge VAT. Perhaps 3% or 4% of those have American involvement.

It is my impression (possibly mistaken) that the OP wasn't asking about Gullivers, or The Londoner - he was asking about all the "shotgun" beer bars crammed into every corner, appearing to have farang managers.

Your answers are appropriate for the level of establishment that sells food, and doesn't collect bar fines.

Cheers!

Steve

We do have several Go Go bar owners who are our clients. They have work permits and are in the Vat system. Granted they are bigger bars but they are in the system. For the little guy who has a small beer bar, you have a valid point.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[sunny747]

What even confuses and puzzles me more is how all the Indian tailors get work permits and visas. Most are younger guys under 50 and they stand all day touting for business.

most of these touting ethnic Indians are thai citizens. they don't need work permits and of course they don't need visas. as simple as that.

WRONG!

how many of them are thai citizens? ......i'm bangladeshi and i have seen many of them at khao-san road tailor shops. All of them has their WP. You guys are mistaken them as indians. I still wonder how they get their WP as they never told me clearly, i make my suit and shirts done in very cheap price from these friendly guys.

yes, many indians in silom road who are broker for gems and jewelry. who hardly can speak a single word of english and has no education what so ever. How do they get WP?

Or perhaps, it's easy for bangladeshi and indians to get visa/wp as these countries doesn't make big fuss for thai citizen to enter their country.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

What even confuses and puzzles me more is how all the Indian tailors get work permits and visas. Most are younger guys under 50 and they stand all day touting for business.

most of these touting ethnic Indians are thai citizens. they don't need work permits and of course they don't need visas. as simple as that.

WRONG!

how many of them are thai citizens? ......i'm bangladeshi and i have seen many of them at khao-san road tailor shops. All of them has their WP. You guys are mistaken them as indians. I still wonder how they get their WP as they never told me clearly, i make my suit and shirts done in very cheap price from these friendly guys.

yes, many indians in silom road who are broker for gems and jewelry. who hardly can speak a single word of english and has no education what so ever. How do they get WP?

Or perhaps, it's easy for bangladeshi and indians to get visa/wp as these countries doesn't make big fuss for thai citizen to enter their country.

A dreamer.

[Strap]

What even confuses and puzzles me more is how all the Indian tailors get work permits and visas. Most are younger guys under 50 and they stand all day touting for business.

most of these touting ethnic Indians are thai citizens. they don't need work permits and of course they don't need visas. as simple as that.

WRONG!

how many of them are thai citizens? ......i'm bangladeshi and i have seen many of them at khao-san road tailor shops. All of them has their WP. You guys are mistaken them as indians. I still wonder how they get their WP as they never told me clearly, i make my suit and shirts done in very cheap price from these friendly guys.

yes, many indians in silom road who are broker for gems and jewelry. who hardly can speak a single word of english and has no education what so ever. How do they get WP?

Or perhaps, it's easy for bangladeshi and indians to get visa/wp as these countries doesn't make big fuss for thai citizen to enter their country.

A dreamer.

That is the funniest thing I have read all day, thanks for the laugh .

the other is sunbelt spelling there web address wrong.. www.sunbrltasiagroup.com

Edited March 26, 2008 by Strap

[Mentors]

A large number of bars are owned and run by Thai ladies married to falang. Legally the husband's involvement is limited to sitting at the bar and drinking

exactly, most of them doing so and some are their own best guest.

[fishhooks]

"the other is sunbelt spelling.......... ''''there''''.......... web address wrong.. www.sunbrltasiagroup.com"

And yet another "FUNNY"

[Sunny Valentine]

I have a work permit for managing a medium sized bar in Pattaya. I am Manager of the company I own 49% of the shares, and have a WP to conduct my Manager duties, oversee the business, train staff, am allowed to perform quality control in the kitchen (Yes, we have a kitchen also, that was also the point where it got easier to obtain the WP in the first place).

We are registered for VAT, and I have to say I have yet to find one alcohol supplier that is not registered for VAT in this town. Other areas might be different. Of course there are lots of small shops and market sellers we use that don't have VAT registered.

I am married to a Thai wife, and I use my legal income as a Manager for the One Year extension. I am on an O Visa now with three annual extensions, as well as WP extensions, granted.

Sunny

[davethailand]

I have a work permit for managing a medium sized bar in Pattaya. I am Manager of the company I own 49% of the shares, and have a WP to conduct my Manager duties, oversee the business, train staff, am allowed to perform quality control in the kitchen (Yes, we have a kitchen also, that was also the point where it got easier to obtain the WP in the first place).

We are registered for VAT, and I have to say I have yet to find one alcohol supplier that is not registered for VAT in this town. Other areas might be different. Of course there are lots of small shops and market sellers we use that don't have VAT registered.

I am married to a Thai wife, and I use my legal income as a Manager for the One Year extension. I am on an O Visa now with three annual extensions, as well as WP extensions, granted.

Sunny

Same here, I've held my permit for 6 years now although I have always kept my Business visa and not gone over to a marriage one.

[astral]

You may get better advice in the Business section.

Topic moved.

[siam2007]

Greg -

I think you are talking about places like Subway, or Hard Rock, or Gullivers - where all the workers are registered employees, and prices are set up specifically for that venue, employees are not "bar fine-able" and the "check bin" is a machine-printed receipt - and your Sole Proprietor comments apply only to Americans..

I'm talking about the 10,000 small bars where "bar fines" are a revenue generator, and none of the bar-girls are on the books, and the fifty bars in a row all charge the exact same price for a Singha - and none of the suppliers charge VAT. Perhaps 3% or 4% of those have American involvement.

It is my impression (possibly mistaken) that the OP wasn't asking about Gullivers, or The Londoner - he was asking about all the "shotgun" beer bars crammed into every corner, appearing to have farang managers.

Your answers are appropriate for the level of establishment that sells food, and doesn't collect bar fines.

Cheers!

Steve

i know its a bit Off-topic, just wanted to say its nice to see Khun Steve Indo-Siam contributing to the board again after such a long time of silence (which as far as I know was due to a business-dispute with the owners of this board....)