Converting A House/condo Electrics For Ground/earth

[thaigene2]

This has worried me for some time, but don't know where to start.

More and more appliances here have the ground/earth prong, but the wiring in the house isn't set up for that. Is there an easy way to eartt/ground all the sockets by buying a dozen special sockets at HomePro, etc? Or is it more complicated? If the latter, I rent - so it would mean going to the landlord - but if it is something I can do easily myself I would give it a go..

Thanks in advance.

[Naam]

This has worried me for some time, but don't know where to start.

More and more appliances here have the ground/earth prong, but the wiring in the house isn't set up for that. Is there an easy way to eartt/ground all the sockets by buying a dozen special sockets at HomePro, etc? Or is it more complicated? If the latter, I rent - so it would mean going to the landlord - but if it is something I can do easily myself I would give it a go..

Thanks in advance.

sockets alone won't ground your appliances. you need to feed a ground wire to each socket (and of course connect it).

[junkofdavid2]

This has worried me for some time, but don't know where to start.

More and more appliances here have the ground/earth prong, but the wiring in the house isn't set up for that. Is there an easy way to eartt/ground all the sockets by buying a dozen special sockets at HomePro, etc? Or is it more complicated? If the latter, I rent - so it would mean going to the landlord - but if it is something I can do easily myself I would give it a go..

Thanks in advance.

In my case it seems to be the opposite... my apartment building's sockets have a 3rd hole (presumably for a ground plug?) but my brand new cooking stove has only 2 round plugs with an extra metal hole for a ground plug... in other words, the appliance's plug has no third "dick" (sorry but i can't think of a better description) to plug into what appears to be the wall socket's ground hole.

What would you do in my case?

Edited April 14, 2008 by junkofdavid2

[thaihome]

Nothing. Your cooking stove is probably double insulated so there is no need for the grounding plug.

Appliance classes

TH

[longball53098]

Based on your limited description my guess is your appliance has what is known as a Schuko plug on the end of the cord.

Does it look like the one in this link? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko

If so and your house has the proper earthed socket you can purchase an adapter at Home Pro for about 80 baht that will allow using the earthed connection

Home Pro sells this adapter in electrical packaged goods.

I have at least 6 of these for various appliances

Of course it only works properly if your sockets are truly earthed correctly to complete the earth connection

Edited April 14, 2008 by longball53098

[junkofdavid2]

Based on your limited description my guess is your appliance has what is known as a Schuko plug on the end of the cord.

Does it look like the one in this link? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko

If so and your house has the proper earthed socket you can purchase an adapter at Home Pro for about 80 baht that will allow using the earthed connection

Home Pro sells this adapter in electrical packaged goods.

I have at least 6 of these for various appliances

Of course it only works properly if your sockets are truly earthed correctly to complete the earth connection

Very helpful! Will look for that at Home Pro. I wonder if they're open during Songkran...

[Rimmer]

An RCD/ELCB/GFI will work with no earth wire. Simply put it measures the amount of current going out and the amount coming back, any in-balance will trip the device before it stops the heart.

a 30ma trip will protect you, your wife and your children

a 60ma trip will protect you and your wife

a 100 ma trip will protect you maybe

A 300 ma trip is suitable only in industrial applications

Anyway that was the storey when I was involved with the electrical industry in UK a 100 years ago..

[thaigene2]

I'm the OP - thanks but I'm already doing all of that - including the guy with the bad stove-top that popped a fuse.

MY QUESTION> is there away t EASILY re-GROUND/EARTH a house with only TWO-PLUG leads?

[elkangorito]

I'm the OP - thanks but I'm already doing all of that - including the guy with the bad stove-top that popped a fuse.

MY QUESTION> is there away t EASILY re-GROUND/EARTH a house with only TWO-PLUG leads?

Well, unless you're an electrician or you know a fair bit about domestic electrical wiring, the answer is "no".

[lopburi3]

I agree it is not that easy as it will require new electric runs and outlets (for three prong). But it is really not that expensive to do and for those with homes would highly advise converting. Today most 'electricians' do know what it is about (but a double check is highly advised as quick/sloppy work is often performed) - a short time ago most did not have a clue.

[Crossy]

Pretty well all the points have been covered.

This site http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/ is worth a look for an idiots guide without becoming over technical.

BUT as has been mentioned previously, mucking around the the electrics is most definately not a DIY exercise or it could become DIE

[junkofdavid2]

Crossy... Your site is indeed VERY HELPFUL and what's even better is that it's EASY TO UNDERSTAND for electrical idiots like me.

[Crossy]

Crossy... Your site is indeed VERY HELPFUL and what's even better is that it's EASY TO UNDERSTAND for electrical idiots like me.

Cheers Unfortunately I'm not having time to keep the site maintained and updated I want to add some stuff on backup generators and more on lightning protection when I get the odd microsecond.

I spend an awful lot of time explaining highly technical systems to senior managers of non-technical companies (bus and rail operators) and occasionally government representatives (one of the few times I wear a tie). It's incredibly difficult to dumb-down sufficiently to make it understandable to these chaps without appearing patronising. I must be doing something right, they keep asking me to come back

[junkofdavid2]

Suggested inclusion on your site...

(But in the meantime you can add it here.)

How to put out an electrical fire? I heard water is a definite no-no!

So what to use (albeit temporarily) in cases where no ABC fire extinguisher is available and before firefighters/elec.co. personnel arrive?

[Crossy]

How to put out an electrical fire? I heard water is a definite no-no!

So what to use (albeit temporarily) in cases where no ABC fire extinguisher is available and before firefighters/elec.co. personnel arrive

Actually a good idea, there is some excellent advice on this site http://www.home-security-action.co.uk/fire-safety.html

IME purely electrical fires in a domestic situation are rare although one one occasion we had a TV catch fire, it went out by itself once we'd pulled the plug. It's much more likely that an electrical fault starts what is, in essence, a conventional fire, cut off the power (always advisable) and use conventional techniques (water). Unfortunately this type of fire tends to get started in hidden inaccessible locations and are often too big to fight by the time they are discovered, in this case close the doors and get everyone out before calling the fire brigade.

If you are present when a fire starts you are much more likely to be able to extinguish it, pull the plug on any electrical equipment then use water or your ABC (you do have one, don't you?). We have an ABC in the kitchen although our few kitchen 'incidents' have succumbed to the classic 'damp cloth' technique.

Edited April 15, 2008 by Crossy

[Cuban]

I spend an awful lot of time explaining highly technical systems to senior managers of non-technical companies....

I once used the following as a way of communicating the gravity of a situation to another manager.

"Did you do everything in your power to ensure that the system was safe after the earier incident? Please direct your answer to the jury."

Back on subject.

Post #4 - I don't think it is 'safe' to assume this - and in fact I doubt it is the case.

Dear OP, post #8 I concur that there is little that you can really do in your situation: electrical skill set & rented accommodation. Other threads cover installing an electrical earth and domestic wiring.

Back to post #1 what you can do?

Take a look at the electrical powered stuff you have around your house. Things that are "double insulated" (techie term in short means that there must be two failures of the insulation to cause a live wire to be exposed that you could touch), most will be marked with this symbol - TV sets etc. These things will be fitted with power cables that only have two conductors (two core cables or two core leads), these will not require an earth. *

Kitchens are the places were people have accidents with electric appliances, water and electrickery join forces to trap those people who's focus is food alone.

A Pattaya women was killed after getting a shock from a faulty rice cooker a few months ago (link some where), the lesson is to check appliances for faults. Now as a non-techie you will not have a Clare tester with you, but you can unplug equipment and inspect the cables for breaks and tears or build up of dirt around switches etc.

Anything you find wrong get repaired or replaced - don't use the old trick of cutting the plug off to stop it being used as some bright spark will just strip the wire bare and poke it in the hole and use it regardless. (5-star hotel in Kenya.)

Any applicance with a metal case (in general) should be used with an earthed power source, computers, cookers, water chillers and water heaters. These need more attention when considering their safety in an enviroment where there is no electrical earth that you can rely on. You are likely to get the tingling buzz when you touch unearthed cases like this, what you are feeling is the mains electricity through a high resistance path (your body) back to earth. Kids find this fun when they discover it - but best to cure the problem as I would not want any children in my house experimenting with elecricity.

Home HiFi set ups these days is another great area where people interconnect different appliances and get to experiance earthing.

* That said I have found equipment (big international brand) sold in Thailand does not meet the safety standards of the west on this subject - use with care is a wise motto here.

As other threads detail - good electrical earthing needs to be built into the house.

The only thing you can praticallty do is good housekeeping and read up on the subject for your next house.

HTH

[Sakeopete]

I had my wiring done in my house by a so called proffesional, while it looks like it was done well they did make some "Somchai" mistakes. Is there any device I could get that would prove if my ground was done properly?

[lopburi3]

If you are talking about outlets actually having a ground they do have testers made for that but have never seen for sale here. If you have any doubts have the electrician use his multi-meter (a cheap unit only costs 200 baht) and have him check voltage hot to neutral and hot to ground. They should both read the same and hopefully no voltage between ground and neutral.

I believe the electric service will provide an inspection for no or low cost. They may also make mistakes but would probably be a worthwhile second check.

[astral]

A simple light bulb and socket connected between the live and earth pins of

a 3 pin plug will show if the earth is working.

If the lamp lights all is OK.

[m02]

This has worried me for some time, but don't know where to start.

More and more appliances here have the ground/earth prong, but the wiring in the house isn't set up for that. Is there an easy way to eartt/ground all the sockets by buying a dozen special sockets at HomePro, etc? Or is it more complicated? If the latter, I rent - so it would mean going to the landlord - but if it is something I can do easily myself I would give it a go..

Thanks in advance.

Rewiring the whole house to provide a ground for all your plug ins in one thing, but if you simply need to provide a ground for certain items, such as your computer or the electric hot water unit for your shower (a must), it is pretty straight forward.

The term 'ground' or 'earthed' means exactly that: an electrical pathway to the ground. Years ago in the States when all water lines were galvanized iron they generally served as the electrical ground connection. However, now with the use of plastic water pipes grounding rods are used. If you look at the little junction box on most homes for the phone wire, you will see a single wire, generally with black plastic insulation, going from it to the ground. This wire is connected to a grounding stake, generally a galvanized spike maybe 20 cm long which is driven into the ground. This is the ground for your phone connection. The ground for your electrical system is basically no different, except if you go to the hardware store and ask for a ground spike you can select from galvanized to copper sheathed spikes from 20 cm to two meters. You can also just use a piece of rebar, which is soft iron and perfectly adequate. It is best to select a location for the ground spike which is kept somewhat moist as that aids in completing the circuit. You can use just about any conductive wire as this isn't a circuit for operating electrical equipment - it simply serves as a bleed off mechanism; however, the wire described above the phone company uses for a ground is available anywhere electrical wire is sold. Since the ground wire is thin you might be able to simply run it into the house through the holes the existing wires use, or if not, through a window or door. If your house is wired in the traditional Thai manner, and runs along the outside of the walls, then the ground wire can follow and be fastened to the phone line or the electrical wires.

To ground your computer or water heat is just a matter of determining whether there is a specific grounding connection, in which case you simply attach the ground wire there; or if not just hook the wire to the frame (not the case). For computers an alligator clip works well; you may need to sand paper the place where you fasten the clip to ensure a proper connection. For hot water units the ground connection is generally inside the case, so you need to first kill the power to the unit. This is best done by going to the mains and throwing the breaker that controls that circuit.

[wangsuda]

First off, I would like to thank all the posters who have provided advice is grounding electricity. I am in the process of purchasing a condo that has UNGROUNDED electricity, and now I know what I am in for when I rewire it. But my big question is this: with the safety of grounding known for decades, how come it isn't done on a regular basis here in Thailand? It isn't complicated to wire a house/condo with properly grounded circuits. So why?

[lopburi3]

I believe most current construction does include ground. It is more expensive to pay for three wires than for two and ground outlets/plugs are also more expensive. Until very recently no plugs used here ever required a grounded outlet (computers can probably be thanked for bringing in the age of grounding to Thailand).

[lopburi3]

A simple light bulb and socket connected between the live and earth pins of

a 3 pin plug will show if the earth is working.

If the lamp lights all is OK.

I suspect the supermarket testers are probably an updated version of that method (which I last used 50 years ago - when some tested for hot wire with wet finger). A multi meter provides a much better indication of ground/quality and is almost as cheap as a light these days and is probably safer than fabricating a lamp.

[longball53098]

This has worried me for some time, but don't know where to start.

More and more appliances here have the ground/earth prong, but the wiring in the house isn't set up for that. Is there an easy way to eartt/ground all the sockets by buying a dozen special sockets at HomePro, etc? Or is it more complicated? If the latter, I rent - so it would mean going to the landlord - but if it is something I can do easily myself I would give it a go..

Thanks in advance.

Rewiring the whole house to provide a ground for all your plug ins in one thing, but if you simply need to provide a ground for certain items, such as your computer or the electric hot water unit for your shower (a must), it is pretty straight forward.

The term 'ground' or 'earthed' means exactly that: an electrical pathway to the ground. Years ago in the States when all water lines were galvanized iron they generally served as the electrical ground connection. However, now with the use of plastic water pipes grounding rods are used. If you look at the little junction box on most homes for the phone wire, you will see a single wire, generally with black plastic insulation, going from it to the ground. This wire is connected to a grounding stake, generally a galvanized spike maybe 20 cm long which is driven into the ground. This is the ground for your phone connection. The ground for your electrical system is basically no different, except if you go to the hardware store and ask for a ground spike you can select from galvanized to copper sheathed spikes from 20 cm to two meters. You can also just use a piece of rebar, which is soft iron and perfectly adequate. It is best to select a location for the ground spike which is kept somewhat moist as that aids in completing the circuit. You can use just about any conductive wire as this isn't a circuit for operating electrical equipment - it simply serves as a bleed off mechanism; however, the wire described above the phone company uses for a ground is available anywhere electrical wire is sold. Since the ground wire is thin you might be able to simply run it into the house through the holes the existing wires use, or if not, through a window or door. If your house is wired in the traditional Thai manner, and runs along the outside of the walls, then the ground wire can follow and be fastened to the phone line or the electrical wires.

To ground your computer or water heat is just a matter of determining whether there is a specific grounding connection, in which case you simply attach the ground wire there; or if not just hook the wire to the frame (not the case). For computers an alligator clip works well; you may need to sand paper the place where you fasten the clip to ensure a proper connection. For hot water units the ground connection is generally inside the case, so you need to first kill the power to the unit. This is best done by going to the mains and throwing the breaker that controls that circuit.

I guess I don't agree 100 percent with all of your statements here about how simple it is to run a ground wire for a specific piece of hardware,,,,,,,,,,,,,the wire to use as a ground is not a "thin" wire as you state. It should be at least as heavy a gauge as the supply wire to the device. The ground stake is not just a 20 cm piece of re-bar but should be copper or galvanized copper at least one and a half meters into the earth. Will what you suggest work for the poster? Probably. Is it the correct and safest method? I choose to say no to that.

This person is a novice and not an electrician,,,,,,,,,,,,,they are asking questions related to safety and health not what color to paint a wall,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they really need to locate a qualified electrician of some sort in their area to get it done properly or even better to learn about what is the right way to do it.

I would not recommend for them to "attach" and alligator clip to a computer case and run a "thin" wire to a stake in the ground or open the case of a water heater to locate the ground lug and attach a wire and run this to a stake somewhere,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this sounds as scary as no ground.

[junkofdavid2]

Crossy... Your site is indeed VERY HELPFUL and what's even better is that it's EASY TO UNDERSTAND for electrical idiots like me.

Cheers Unfortunately I'm not having time to keep the site maintained and updated I want to add some stuff on backup generators and more on lightning protection when I get the odd microsecond.

I spend an awful lot of time explaining highly technical systems to senior managers of non-technical companies (bus and rail operators) and occasionally government representatives (one of the few times I wear a tie). It's incredibly difficult to dumb-down sufficiently to make it understandable to these chaps without appearing patronising. I must be doing something right, they keep asking me to come back

Just realized... my stove has a Schuko Plug, yes, and so I got a Schuko adapter as suggested on your site.

However, the power cable of the appliance has 2 connections... one which connects to the wall and one which connects to the appliance. (i.e. it's detachable from the appliance).

The strange thing is... the part attached to appliance is only a 2 hole but the part to attach to the wall is Schuko style.

1) Will I still benefit from the Schuko adapter at all?

2) Does this mean it's 'double insulated'? (Note: There is NOT any double insulated symbol on the appliance or on the box).

3) If it is double insulated, is it dangerous to still use it with the Schuko adapter?

Edited April 24, 2008 by junkofdavid2

[Crossy]

Just realized... my stove has a Schuko Plug, yes, and so I got a Schuko adapter as suggested on your site.

However, the power cable of the appliance has 2 connections... one which connects to the wall and one which connects to the appliance. (i.e. it's detachable from the appliance).

The strange thing is... the part attached to appliance is only a 2 hole but the part to attach to the wall is Schuko style.

1) Will I still benefit from the Schuko adapter at all?

2) Does this mean it's 'double insulated'? (Note: There is NOT any double insulated symbol on the appliance or on the box).

3) If it is double insulated, is it dangerous to still use it with the Schuko adapter?

If it IS double-insulated the adaptor will make no difference, it certainly won't make it dangerous

Those apparently two-hole connectors often have a side contact for the ground (like the Schuko), I've never seen an appliance with a Schuko plug that did not require a ground. Actually that's not quite true, our vacuum has a sort of all-plastic Schuko that has none of the metal grounding gubbins, it's double insulated, I'll add a picture to the site in future for additional clarity.

If in doubt leave the adaptor connected

Edited April 24, 2008 by Crossy

[elkangorito]

My comments in blue.

Rewiring the whole house to provide a ground for all your plug ins in one thing, but if you simply need to provide a ground for certain items, such as your computer or the electric hot water unit for your shower (a must), it is pretty straight forward.

No, it is not "straight forward".

The term 'ground' or 'earthed' means exactly that: an electrical pathway to the ground. Years ago in the States when all water lines were galvanized iron they generally served as the electrical ground connection. However, now with the use of plastic water pipes grounding rods are used. If you look at the little junction box on most homes for the phone wire, you will see a single wire, generally with black plastic insulation, going from it to the ground.

This is called a "functional earth" & not a "protective earth".

This wire is connected to a grounding stake, generally a galvanized spike maybe 20 cm long which is driven into the ground. This is the ground for your phone connection. And only for the phone. The ground for your electrical system is basically no different, (it is very different) except if you go to the hardware store and ask for a ground spike you can select from galvanized to copper sheathed spikes from 20 cm to two meters. You can also just use a piece of rebar, which is soft iron and perfectly adequate.

Rebar as you would call it, is totally unacceptable as a protective earth.

It is best to select a location for the ground spike which is kept somewhat moist as that aids in completing the circuit. You can use just about any conductive wire as this isn't a circuit for operating electrical equipment - it simply serves as a bleed off mechanism; (this is complete rubbish). however, the wire described above the phone company uses for a ground is available anywhere electrical wire is sold. Since the ground wire is thin you might be able to simply run it into the house through the holes the existing wires use, or if not, through a window or door. If your house is wired in the traditional Thai manner, and runs along the outside of the walls, then the ground wire can follow and be fastened to the phone line or the electrical wires.

An "earth wire" from the earth stake to the consumer unit is not "thin". It must be at least 4mm squared in cross sectional area. It is better to have a larger cable than this.

To ground your computer or water heat is just a matter of determining whether there is a specific grounding connection, in which case you simply attach the ground wire there; or if not just hook the wire to the frame (not the case). For computers an alligator clip works well; you may need to sand paper the place where you fasten the clip to ensure a proper connection. For hot water units the ground connection is generally inside the case, so you need to first kill the power to the unit. This is best done by going to the mains and throwing the breaker that controls that circuit.

Some people wonder why I get a bit peeved about posts like these. The same people probably wonder why I no longer "freely" give detailed information.

The person who posted this above rubbish has no idea of electrical anything & is to be ignored if you value your life.