Sky Train From The Airport

[otherstuff1957]

My prediction is that 80% or more of the passengers on the Airport link will be commuters, not airline passengers. If you just think of it as a Skytrain/Subway extension that happens to go to the Airport, it starts to make a lot more sense.

[arpita21ind]

I also Want it to Start OPERATING ASAP...

[DFCarlson]

I usually stay near the Thong Lo Skytrain station when I'm in BKK, and I would love to have the abiilty to step onto the train at Swampy and off at Thong Lo.

Changi in Singapore is IMHO the model of what this kind of RT connection to the airport should be. What's the chance that the BKK connection will turn out to be as nice and as easy to use as the Singapore connection...?

[tw25rw]

I usually stay near the Thong Lo Skytrain station when I'm in BKK, and I would love to have the abiilty to step onto the train at Swampy and off at Thong Lo.

Changi in Singapore is IMHO the model of what this kind of RT connection to the airport should be. What's the chance that the BKK connection will turn out to be as nice and as easy to use as the Singapore connection...?

Biggest problem I see is getting from Makkasan to lower Sukhumvit.. It's a short taxi ride that some drivers won't want to bother with, and getting to hotels by skytrain with luggage will be a royal pain in the arse.

For the cost of 2 lady drinks, I'd rather just get a taxi to the door.

[Juzrelax]

I think the sky train & underground system are some of the best city planing ideas Thailand has ever had. It will make life easier when the airport extention is completed, especially when traveling without a lot of luggage.

[Crossy]

I think the sky train & underground system are some of the best city planing ideas Thailand has ever had. It will make life easier when the airport extention is completed, especially when traveling without a lot of luggage.

The problem is that the system is not properly integrated, we will (at least at the start) need different tickets for the ARL, BTS and MRT.

A study into a properly integrated system is being done (again) now, two studies one sponsored by ADB (Asian Development Bank) and the other by OTP (Office of Traffic Mis-planning). A major issue is/will be that the three operating comanies don't seem to trust one another, and for that matter, none of them trust a third-party Clearing House which is necessary to divvy up the cash correctly.

Trouble is this should have been sorted years ago, if it was we would now have a single ticket and seamless paid-area transfers between the three

[pitrevie]

Is there a map of this link anywhere showing the stations en-route?

[dotcom]

I'll be using BTS from Onnut to Suvarapum. Change trains at Ratcha tway.

Edited June 24, 2008 by dotcom

[Zpete]

I usually stay near the Thong Lo Skytrain station when I'm in BKK, and I would love to have the abiilty to step onto the train at Swampy and off at Thong Lo.

Changi in Singapore is IMHO the model of what this kind of RT connection to the airport should be. What's the chance that the BKK connection will turn out to be as nice and as easy to use as the Singapore connection...?

KLIA and Kuala Lumpur Sentral connection, mite even be better.

If yer at Thong Lo, on Sukumvit Rd, use 552 bus, less hassle at the moment, 32 baht...... until BTS fully opened.

I stay at Asoke, public bus is great for the price, no hassles like getting onto Skytrain, runs 24 hours too.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Zpete

[pitrevie]

Is there a map of this link anywhere showing the stations en-route?

I found this:

[Skytrain2hell]

They say that it will be done at the end of this year. Test trains from Germany will be brought in at that point. Then they will test the tracks for three months, hopefully opening up in April.

[weary]

Thank you Skytrain2hell. I like your nick.

[Uros]

I'll be using BTS from Onnut to Suvarapum. Change trains at Ratcha tway.

Taking the long way around. Why not go Onnut all the way?

[Disting]

I arrive on Emirates at 6pm so up til now its been grab 'limo', onto the xpressway and then straight into the traffic jam on the run round to Sukumvit. Always get a limo as the back seat is so much more comfortable for the hour ish kip I have sitting in the traffic. Cant wait til the train opens. All it needs no is some enterprising chap to start a business at the station where they have people you can hire to carry luggage to your hotel whilst you ride on the train. Trouble is, the 'fee' you would have to pay to the airport mafia to set such a thing up would ,I guess, make it unworthwhile.

[tw25rw]

I'll be using BTS from Onnut to Suvarapum. Change trains at Ratcha tway.

Taking the long way around. Why not go Onnut all the way?

What do you mean? The On Nut BTS line doesn't have a direct link to the airport..

[samran]

I note the system is using overhead powerlines. I think it looks kinda swish...

But, what is the benefit of using overhead power rather than a third rail?

[dotcom]

Anyone seen that massive "City terminal" They are building? Whew!!!

The old Hopewell project was a triple decker. Normal train on the ground, Car road in the middle & light rail on top. They are beefing up the old Hopewell stancions.

I'm sure the BTS is powered by a 3rd rail just like the existing one.

[samran]

Anyone seen that massive "City terminal" They are building? Whew!!!

The old Hopewell project was a triple decker. Normal train on the ground, Car road in the middle & light rail on top. They are beefing up the old Hopewell stancions.

I'm sure the BTS is powered by a 3rd rail just like the existing one.

the train to the airport is powered by overhead cables, unlike the BTS which is powered by a third rail which runs parallel down next to the tracks (if that is what they are called)

As for hopewell, this train goes to the new airport - so there is no old hopewell infrastructure being used. The hopewell line went out to Don muang, the old airport....

[dotcom]

O Ok so you never saw those Hopewell stanctions running along Makkasan Road/Kampang Phet7 Road? Remember where NASA used to be?

[Crossy]

O Ok so you never saw those Hopewell stanctions running along Makkasan Road/Kampang Phet7 Road? Remember where NASA used to be?

The airport line is not using any Hopewell structures, one or two were removed (much to the annoyance of the Hopewell company who still owned them).

The ARL extension (to Rangsit and beyond) may well use Hopewell structures if they pass testing for their new purpose (and Hopewell will actually sell them).

Existing Skytrain and Metro are powered by 750V DC third rail, the ARL will be 25kV overhead power.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Crossy

[nothingleftbutfaith]

I note the system is using overhead powerlines. I think it looks kinda swish...

But, what is the benefit of using overhead power rather than a third rail?

The ARL will run at 160 kph. You cannot use a 3rd rail system at such speeds ( max 110 kph).

[CbrLad]

I note the system is using overhead powerlines. I think it looks kinda swish...

But, what is the benefit of using overhead power rather than a third rail?

The ARL will run at 160 kph. You cannot use a 3rd rail system at such speeds ( max 110 kph).

I think the English would disagree. In the South West they have an extensive 3rd rail system with normal cruise speeds well above 110km/h. Indeed the world speed record for 3rd rail is around 170km/h.

[Crossy]

I note the system is using overhead powerlines. I think it looks kinda swish...

But, what is the benefit of using overhead power rather than a third rail?

The ARL will run at 160 kph. You cannot use a 3rd rail system at such speeds ( max 110 kph).

I think the English would disagree. In the South West they have an extensive 3rd rail system with normal cruise speeds well above 110km/h. Indeed the world speed record for 3rd rail is around 170km/h.

It's mainly down to Amps, 3rd rail tends to be used at lower voltages (750V) and with DC as opposed to the 25kV AC usually used on overhead systems. The lower voltage means that to get the required power much higher currents are required with the associated problems when you have sliding contacts, limiting the maximum practical speed to around 120kph.

A huge advantage of using DC is that it is very easy to implement regenerative braking, whereby trains use the motors as generators when slowing down and put power back into the system (rather than wasting it as heat) allowing much greater efficiency where lots of stop-start operations are performed (as in metro systems).

Interesting article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_elect...n_Great_Britain

Edited July 19, 2008 by Crossy

[CbrLad]

I note the system is using overhead powerlines. I think it looks kinda swish...

But, what is the benefit of using overhead power rather than a third rail?

The ARL will run at 160 kph. You cannot use a 3rd rail system at such speeds ( max 110 kph).

I think the English would disagree. In the South West they have an extensive 3rd rail system with normal cruise speeds well above 110km/h. Indeed the world speed record for 3rd rail is around 170km/h.

It's mainly down to Amps, 3rd rail tends to be used at lower voltages (750V) and with DC as opposed to the 25kV AC usually used on overhead systems. The lower voltage means that to get the required power much higher currents are required with the associated problems when you have sliding contacts, limiting the maximum practical speed to around 120kph.

A huge advantage of using DC is that it is very easy to implement regenerative braking, whereby trains use the motors as generators when slowing down and put power back into the system (rather than wasting it as heat) allowing much greater efficiency where lots of stop-start operations are performed (as in metro systems).

Interesting article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_elect...n_Great_Britain

Although the BKK Sky Train unless I am mistaken uses a variation of the bottom contact system. Ie in normal third rail the shoe presses down, in bottom contact the shoe is under the rail and pushes up which allows higher currents and produces less arching. The article you quoted said this about bottom contact systems:

"750 V DC, Third rail (Bottom Contact)

Docklands Light Railway

This system uses a bottom-contact third rail. The third rail uses a composite conductor rail made of an aluminium body with a steel contact surface. The benefit of this is a low-resistance, high current capacity rail that has a durable steel surface for the current collection shoegear of the train."

But yes the difference between third rail and 25KV over head is the amount of current it can pass. Low voltage means larger conductor is needed for the same amount of energy, 25KV needs a much smaller conductor which so happens to be suspended overhead.

[dotcom]

I found this.

http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/MassTrans...0Plan%207.5.pdf

Crossy. I would like to ask you a simple question.

You say there is going to be an express train to Suvarnapum. It is supplied by overhead power lines. My question: Are the tracks on the ground i.e. the surface of the earth?

Do they run under the BTS? or somewhere off to the side of the BTS skytrain right of way?

Thanks.

[Crossy]

I found this.

http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/MassTrans...0Plan%207.5.pdf

Crossy. I would like to ask you a simple question.

You say there is going to be an express train to Suvarnapum. It is supplied by overhead power lines. My question: Are the tracks on the ground i.e. the surface of the earth?

Do they run under the BTS? or somewhere off to the side of the BTS skytrain right of way?

Things have changed a bit since that map (2005)

The BTS itself does not and will not go to the airport. The current construction going on in Makkasan and towards the airport is for the Airport Express Link (ARL) which will be 25kV overhead, elevated all the way. It will be operated by a branch of SRT (State Railways of Thailand) as it uses their right of way.

The ARL will have two services, 'Express' which stop only at Swampy and Makkasan and 'Commuter' which will stop at all stations, the services share the same tracks just like the Airport Link / Tung Chung Metro in Hongkong. There is an interchange with the BTS at Ratchathewi but only the Commuter trains will go that far, Express trains turn round at Makkasan. The timetable is arranged so that the trains do not actually have to overtake, so no provisions have been made for this (an error IMHO).

There is a planned extension of the ARL to Rangsit (actually Chiangraknoi) and a suggestion of a further extension to the east, how far is open to debate at present, possibly to Chachoengsao.

Edited July 22, 2008 by Crossy

[dotcom]

What you are calling Makkasan, is that the Grand Bang Sue massive terminal (under construction) near the old mustering yards of SRT?

How in the hel_l can an express train share tracks with a BTS train that stops at every station?

Man I knew the Thais were messed up but I had no idea.

[Crossy]

What you are calling Makkasan, is that the Grand Bang Sue massive terminal (under construction) near the old mustering yards of SRT?

How in the hel_l can an express train share tracks with a BTS train that stops at every station?

Man I knew the Thais were messed up but I had no idea.

Makkasan is the bloody great structure going up at the end of Asoke road near Phetchaburi metro station, it will be the City Air Terminal with check-in facilities for major airlines.

Grand Bang Sue will (might) be built on the existing marshalling yards at Bang Sue (behind the Mo Chit bus station), it should be a major interchange between Metro and commuter systems.

As to same track operation, theoretically (and much simplified because trains don't stop or start instantly, passengers may get upset) it works something like this:-

Say.

An express train takes 15 minutes Swampy to Makkasan

A commuter train takes 26 minutes Swampy to Makkasan

Both trains run at the same speed, just the commuter stops for 60 seconds at 11 intermediate stations.

1. Commuter train leaves Swampy.
   
2. About 20 minutes later an Express leaves Swampy, and starts catching up with the Commuter in front.
   
3. Get the timing right and they both arrive at Makkasan at the same time (hopefully the express is about 2 minutes behind the commuter).
   
4. Next Commuter leaves Swampy about 10 minutes after the Express
   
5. Repeat from 2.
   

It does actually work, although any hiccup will cause the express trains to become clogged up behind a commuter, that's why it's sensible to allow the trains to overtake (as is done in Hongkong)

EDIT Actually, I don't think there will be the full 11 intermediate stops that are shown on the map so the express won't actually catch the commuter in front.

I believe (I'll have to check) that the plan is to have a train leave Swampy every 15 minutes (alternating express and commuter).

Edited July 22, 2008 by Crossy

[dotcom]

Yeah.

MRT is meaningless to me.

But from the sound of all this - this rail line sounds as if it has nothing whatsoever to do with BTS or the group that financed & built it in the first place.

For newbies. This is how Thai corruption works. Not little bribes to get a marriage lisence.

No massive graft like building a new airport or mass transit links to & from it. Welcome to the latest Thai political party.

[Wanderer_99]

I usually stay near the Thong Lo Skytrain station when I'm in BKK, and I would love to have the abiilty to step onto the train at Swampy and off at Thong Lo.

Changi in Singapore is IMHO the model of what this kind of RT connection to the airport should be. What's the chance that the BKK connection will turn out to be as nice and as easy to use as the Singapore connection...?

Biggest problem I see is getting from Makkasan to lower Sukhumvit.. It's a short taxi ride that some drivers won't want to bother with, and getting to hotels by skytrain with luggage will be a royal pain in the arse.

For the cost of 2 lady drinks, I'd rather just get a taxi to the door.

As a shuttle, the airport train doesn't make any sense except for someone who lives under an airport train station or for a single traveler with no luggage who would rather spend more time jumping onto different forms of mass transit than going direct just to save a few (very few) satangs.

I live across from Thong Lo (soi 38) and it usually takes between 20 - 25 minutes and less than 200 baht to get to or back from the airport. Using the airport train, I would have to use other forms of transportation--taxi, moto, skytrain in combination--have to deal with inner city traffic and switching modes of transport just to get to the station. It would be a royal pain to do all by public transport with luggage. I don't know the proposed cost of the train but I doubt the difference is so large that I would prefer it to door-to-door transport, and if you are traveling with friends/family I am sure it would be more expensive.

Then there is the cost of operation. According to an article in the Nation, the designers of the project anticipate that to be profitable, 25% of passengers arriving at the new airport must use the system. Even in Singapore where the airport train is considered a huge success, it is less that 12%.

I see the motivation for airport train as the same for what has caused so much trouble with the airport to begin with: it is an unnecessary publics works project designed to provide the maximum possibility to skim money.