The Avenue Shopping Mall

[libya 115]

I remember the first (and only) time I took a look around the place, I thought; "This is never going to catch on..." . Let's face it, one of the good reasons for going to a shopping mall is for the welcome cool...which makes you feel good and want to purchase something.

This place is probably the biggest flop since 'The Spruce Goose' or 'The Avengers' movie!

What will happen when it closes down and Shenanigans wants to go back....?

[NotNew2You]

What will happen when it closes down and Shenanigans wants to go back....?

Can't imagine Marriott's ohhhh so cooool "Moore" pub is doing any business. Place is so dead, they are advertising Free Magaritas all nite long (on Thursdays I recall) for ladies (in order to draw some guys in the door)! Probably happy to re-lease to the Shenigan boys if the opportunity ever arose

Edited July 10, 2008 by NotNew2You

[libya 115]

What will happen when it closes down and Shenanigans wants to go back....?

Can't imagine Marriott's ohhhh so cooool "Moore" pub is doing any business. Place is so dead, they are advertising Free Magaritas all nite long (on Thursdays I recall) for ladies (in order to draw some guys in the door)! Probably happy to re-lease to the Shenigan boys if the opportunity ever arose

What about the 'Saving Face' aspect?

I wonder if khatoeys are eligible for the free cocktails?

Only McDonalds will flourish.....maybe McDonalds will buy the whole complex and make a McDonalds World........

[NotNew2You]

However, they misjudged the market. Not so many hisos here, farang or Thai. Orangerie is also probably also not a good fit for Pattaya.

I could be totally wrong on this but I have long contended that all this hi-so condo, restaurant, and bar/club development has a very limited market potential in Pattaya. Places like Orangerie, Ice Bar, Moore Pub, Manhattans Steakhouse, Amari's Mantra, and all the rest seem very out of place and character for Pattaya. Bangkok yes, maybe Phuket, even Samui possibly...but Pattaya? No IMHO. Whatever the RE agents like to say, it's still the P4P capitol of the world, has a crappy beach/bay, barely adequate water/power/sewer infrustrucure, and not much natural scenic beauty (save one ).

Sure, there is a market for some nice places to live, eat, and party/relax...and we have always had them...like the Royal Cliff Condos, Brunos, Casa Pascal, Mata Hari, etc.

People with real money to spend at these ho-so type places are very unlikely to come to Pattaya in great numbers and the people who do visit/live in Pattaya are unlikely to spend much time in such places. They can't win with either crowd.

I happen to personally know that one of these fancy restaurants, Gian's Italian, on Pratumnak Hill is not doing very well.

I could be totally wrong and there appears to be a lot of BIG money being invested in all this high-end stuff so they must know something I don't. Another example, the new Woodland Residences serviced suites are beautiful and in a good location...but they rent out for up to almost 100k per month for the larger units. even the small ones are around B 70k. Maybe there is a market for month long or season rentals at these prices to those rich Russians and Chinese we keep hearing about during their winter seasons...what about the rest of the year. And if I was to spend that kind of dough...it wouldn't be for spending a month in Pattaya.

Edited July 10, 2008 by NotNew2You

[Cuban]

I cannot put my finger, specifically, on what I don't like but I just did not get a good feel for the place.

Bug-bears:

1. The uneven spacing on the staircases - in particular to Shenanigans.
   
2. The ticketing 'system' for getting to the multi-storey car park from Second Road.
   
3. The distance from Second Road to the shops lost to garden and rock display.
   
4. The fact that it is smaller that it appears it should be.
   

I wonder if part of the design concept was that at some future date 'zoning' would force the nearby beer-bars to close as the Sois are knocked down to build new the VT27 and Ocean 17 towers on the beach front. Allowing the current businesses to move and be replaced with a selection of open air bars and large indoor Go-Gos.

At first I thought it was because there was nothing Thai, nothing cultural about it - it could have been in any major town/city.

I don't mind the lack of 'Thai' - the lack of defined space makes to too difficult or too bothersome to walk from one shop to another in the heat/rain - compare any other mall that encloses the space to provide an enviroment that makes you want to stay there and spend money.

[whatsoever]

Thats a little unfair I think Shenanagins in the Avenue is ideal for a first date. I like to have a few pints of Guiness and a warming bowl of Irish Stew - at a reasonable price - whilst i can peer over on to second road and see my date as she returns from Soi Post Office after happily consuming her som tom with poison mini crabs at a more reasonable cost.

[expat123]

I like the Shabu Ichi restaurant over Shenanigans. Good value and comfortable buffet. I don't like that some/all(?) the restaurant aren't equipped with toilets so you must use one of the mall's public toilets down the hall somewhere. Sizzler at Royal Garden has the same setup.

[Pattaya_Fox]

Some posts have been deleted for flaming.

One member has been warned.

[Theyreallrubbish]

I agree that a prime location has been ruined by appalling design.

Many of the design mistakes have been mentioned, open air in a tropical climate, the uneven flooring, the terrible entrance, the stairs.

One other factor is that once you get in from the front the stores at the back seem to be shrouded in gloom and darkness as your eyes adjust from the tropical sun. I never walked to the stores towards the back on any floor as they seemed to be in darkness and I wasn't even sure if anything was open back there.

The third floor was a total disaster as the stores were impossible to see and most people probably never even realised there were stores there.

Contrast this with a well designed mall such as the Central Malls were foot traffic is managed up and down escaltors in atriums so you see the maximum of stores as you go through the mall.

In the Avenue you had to go out of your way to explore to find out what stores where there. Again, you're not motivated to wander when you're in the tropical heat.

Possibly the worst designed mall from a retail point of view I've ever seen. Obviously designed by someone with no knowledge of retail or mall desgn whatsoever. If it wasn't for the cineplex it would probably have almost zero foot traffic. Only people killing time waiting for the movie to start are available customers, and even they won't go far from the air conditioned cinema lobby.

[Meg_2003]

Also Please be aware of the double pricing system at the Pet Shop in The Avenue.

We went to look at an American Shorthair cat there. First I went there without a Thai, The cat was 25,000 baht. The girl working in the shop seemed to have a little bit of an attitude like she couldn't be bothered getting the cat out of the cage for us to look at it.

15 minutes ago, my {Thai} Partner went to the same pet shop, to have a look at the same cat (He's looking for an American Shorthair) He asked the price, 12,000 baht.

So, its over double the price for us foreigners. 25,000 baht for us, 12,000 for thai. Huge difference. Plus she would not wake the cat up so that he could see its face and had a terrible attitude.. He walked out.

No wonder the place is deadly quiet

Edit: He also asked to if he could hold the cat or at least have a proper look at it.. She declined, saying "Its sleeping".

Edited July 10, 2008 by Meg_ken2003

[sotsira]

I had a meal at Pizza Pizza once. Tiny bad lasagne for a big price. You have got to offer value for money, even in a luxo mall.

I ordered spaggetti in Pizza Pizza once and coudn't beleive my eyes when the waiter put it in front of me, it was such a small portion it looked like an appetizer not a main coarse, so when i finished and paid my bill i went elsewhere to have my main coarse. I would never go back there again, complete rip off!

[Jingthing]

OK, I see the point about the place being open air. That was a bold choice in the tropics, but this is a beach resort city, so you can imagine what they were thinking. Maybe it was cynical also, the customers will have to walk in the shops and spend money to get the aircon, keep the riff raff out.

I still don't believe the place will fold, at least soon. With anchors like Villa and Cali Wowi and SF Cinemas, there is still potential for this alternative type mall. When the new big one opens just up the street with even more cinemas (and probably a Greyhound), that might be interesting. I do think the right kind of businesses would find success there. The location is still great. Isn't Shenanigans doing OK?

My major complaint about this mall is that most of the businesses there are of no interest to me. Put in different, more alluring businesses, without rip off prices, and the people will come. Maybe.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Jingthing

[britmaveric]

Well not hard to figure out why its not doing business - outside which is a nonstarter for lot people and poor location.

You have Royal Garden right across the bloody street, and even the stores there dont have many customers. Demographics is all wrong. You have 3 malls within a few clicks of each other. This is the problem - not enough westerners to support them.

[Jingthing]

I think they built it with the clear idea that the new big mall was coming soon, and they could not compete with it 1 to 1. They had to do something entirely different. It really would have been crazy to build another small box mall right in the middle of the old box mall (Royal) and the new one super big one coming up. Malls are central to Thai urban life. There is room for a weird one. But they have to be better in the business mix or yes, there is a problem. I get the comparison to Duck Plaza, but that was in a bad location and had little poky local businesses, and was hot and claustrophobic in a way the Avenue will never be.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Jingthing

[philliphn]

I recently had a Mango Ice cream shake at the Coffee shop/Ice Cream store to the left of the main entrance. The Mango Shake was very good. However, the price was a little more than twice what a similar thing at Swensons would cost. It was too expensive for what it was. I am usually a very good tipper. But at that price I felt that it was to expensive to also leave a tip. Sorry!

[JSixpack]

My major complaint about this mall is that most of the businesses there are of no interest to me.

So what bussinesses are of interest to you?

[Meg_2003]

I still don't believe the place will fold, at least soon. With anchors like Villa and Cali Wowi and SF Cinemas,

The cinema in The Avenue is actually Major Cineplex , not SF Cinema... Major Cineplex is a lot better than SF in my opinion, So thats one good thing about the Avenue. I only go there for the Cinema.

[NotNew2You]

OK, I see the point about the place being open air. That was a bold choice in the tropics, but this is a beach resort city, so you can imagine what they were thinking.

Actually, I can't imagine what they were thinking. I mean, if I was a mall developer in a hot, humid (and also often rainy) beach resort, I would think just the opposite. To attract people in my doors, I would provide them with a place to cool off after a day at the beach or wandering around outside in the heat. I mean, RGM, Mike's, Royal Festival (Big C) seemed to have figured this one out.

...keep the riff raff out.

Pattaya is mostly riff-raff...they just lost 90% of their customer base

I still don't believe the place will fold, at least soon. With anchors like Villa and Cali Wowi and SF Cinemas, there is still potential for this alternative type mall.

Probably right...as so much investment has been sunk into the place but you know the Thais. They are certainly not adverse to just tearing something down and starting again. I don't see what they could really do, however, to make the place attractive. Even if they had some interesting shops, you still have to deal with the brutal elements to shop there.

The location is still great. Isn't Shenanigans doing OK?

That would be interesting to know. Very nice place and much BIGGER than original location so hard to tell if doing the same, better, or worse.

My major complaint about this mall is that most of the businesses there are of no interest to me.

Surfer's Paradise, Phuket Mermaid, Puma, Nike, Adidas...who is going to buy this crap (I don't even know what shops are on the uppr levels as I NEVER go there.) Oh yeah, those always reffered to rich Russians and Chinese again [seen a bunch of Indians this year too]. You mean, like the ones in flocks following around their leader with a flag taking their day-trips to Larn island. Yeah, they look like really big spenders...never seen so much double-knit polyester shirts and pants in my life

Edited July 11, 2008 by NotNew2You

[Jingthing]

I still don't believe the place will fold, at least soon. With anchors like Villa and Cali Wowi and SF Cinemas,

The cinema in The Avenue is actually Major Cineplex , not SF Cinema... Major Cineplex is a lot better than SF in my opinion, So thats one good thing about the Avenue. I only go there for the Cinema.

Yes, thanks for the correction. Does anyone know what cinema is going to go in the new mall? It would be nice if Pattaya can start to get more film CONTENT choices like Bangkok as you would find in Siam Square and the House. If you look at the Pattaya film schedules, we now have so many more screens, but almost the exact same PROGRAMMING everywhere.

[Jingthing]

My major complaint about this mall is that most of the businesses there are of no interest to me.

So what bussinesses are of interest to you?

That is a very good question and of course everyone has a different answer to that. I would know it when I see it.

Different malls have different draws for me. For example, I always visit the Export Shop at Big C and the similar stores at the outlet mall near the Tesco on Thepprasit.

However, how many optical shops does one mall need? On the other hand, good well priced unique restaurants are always a draw. There are so many cuisines that are not well covered yet in Pattaya.

How about?

An authentic burrito shop?

An Argentinian steak house?

A Peruvian ceviche place (perfect light food for a beach resort)?

A French creperie?

A Miami style Cuban sandwich joint, with Cubano pork sandwiches, black beans and rice, and Cuban coffee?

A micro Villa, with even more unique, exotic, specialized non-Thai (not only Western) foods than Villa?

An authentic Sichuan restaurant for both the Chinese and sophisticated farang market?

Edited July 11, 2008 by Jingthing

[NotNew2You]

I think they built it with the clear idea that the new big mall was coming soon...old box mall (Royal) and the new one super big one coming up.

Don't forget, a few years after the new Central Mall goes online, the MBK folks are planning to build a new mall/condo/hotel project on the land now occupied by the Montien Hotel (their lease is expiring). This would be a huge development because, like the Central project, it would stretch from Beach road all the way back to 2nd road. Another nail in the Avenue's coffin.

Malls are central to Thai urban life.

Agreed. But Pattaya is not an urban area. It is a beach resort and not a very large one at that. The population density is quite low and the actual population is usually estimated at around 250-300k. Not a very large population to support many higher-end shopping malls. There is also not much of a middle or upper-middle class managerial/professional class of Thai workers who would have the disposable income to spend in these malls. Most of the Thais in Pattaya are lower/working-class economic migrants from other parts of Thailand. I am not referring to the "working girls," though they would be included, but to all the hotel, restaurant, and shop staffs. They are low paid and do not have much (if any) disposable income. What little they do have is mostly sent up-country to help support family and spent there, not in Pattaya. The upper-middle class and rich Thais who visit on week-ends may drop a few baht in the malls, but the bulk of their retail spending will be done in Bangkok. As for the farangs, I don't see why visitors would buy much of the name brand stuff when they can just as easily buy it back home and most of the retired expatriates have little use for such overpriced "status symbols" (we all gave-up the rat race when we came here and now it's just sabai sabai ).

I get the comparison to Duck Plaza...was hot and claustrophobic in a way the Avenue will never be.

Isn't that what most people have be complaining about...that it's hot and badly designed [claustrophobic]?

Edited July 11, 2008 by NotNew2You

[Jingthing]

Anyone who actually visited Duck Plaza when it was actually operating will understand the stark contrast between Duck Plaza and the Avenue Mall. Duck Plaza was like a rat maze. Avenue is very open space, not at all claustrophobic. Also, Pattaya now is indeed an URBAN area. Just open your eyes. I do agree the market for what people will actually buy is different in Pattaya than Bangkok. This goes to the issue of business plan and business concept. However, also remember that many of the tourists in Pattaya do not spend any or much time in Bangkok. So a moneyed visiting Russian for example, may well spend at the malls.

Some of the businesses that have/will fail at Avenue or the other malls just figured they can bring Bangkok to Pattaya. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Smart business people will figure out (by trial and error?) what works in Pattaya. Some things might work in Pattaya that don't work in Bangkok, and vice versa. For example. there are numerous dedicated Iranian restaurants in Pattaya, and only one (bad) one in Bangkok. Pattaya is a city but it is not the same city as Bangkok. Over time, its identity will morph with the times, but I wouldn't bet against its future.

More malls are not necessarily the nails in other mall's coffin. Yes, it makes for a competitive environment. Each mall needs to have a distinct identity to draw in people. Look at Bangkok's shopping mall row from Central World to Paragon to Discovery Center and beyond to get the idea of how more malls actually can help each other create a shopping mega district.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Jingthing

[Heng]

One reason why the Pizza Pizza folks are on the rocks (the main farang-Thai couple... the one where the farang was accused a year or so ago of selling X million in fake gold coins) might be because they are being sued by their partners.

[MsFigure]

I go to California WOW evey other day and I also notice that the shops are almost void of customers. Contrary to so many threads here, I really enjoy WOW. The equipment is top notch, they have turned down the volume of the music, I have a life time membership and no one ever bothers me, tries to solicit, etc. I do a 90 minute work-out every other day and I always see a steady stream of people taking a tour of the gym with a sales person. And I never see the American manager who so many riled against - saw him about 4 months ago - anyway, I think WOW is in no danger - neither is the theater or bowling and a few of the larger eating establishments - but otherwise, Avenue is spookily quiet.

I've also noticed that The Avenue does seem deadly quiet and also wondered how the businesses can stay open. I went there a few days ago and did not see any customers in ANY of the shops. Seems like only the restaurants at the 2nd Road entrance seem to have customers, also Major Cineplex has always been quite busy every time I go..

We visited the Avenue for the first time just a couple of days ago, and if you consider the music coming out of Cali WOW not too loud and that they've turned down the volume, I really hate to hear how loud it was before.

[innovator]

The Whitiard Tea Shop Closed due to bad customer service and high prices. They refused to even turn down the music.

Also, who wants to drink overpriced tea, when there is a Starbucks a few yards away?

Au Bon Pain is doing business, but the last time I went in there and the final time, they refused to turn down the music too. Then, the chef/sandwich maker threatened me with the big knife to get out as he was angry with me because I requested to lower the music.

Starbucks is popular and should do well, along with McD's.

It is so noisy inside the shops and outside when walking around that if you combine that with the heat, it is a losing proposition.

[NotNew2You]

...they refused to turn down the music too. Then, the chef/sandwich maker threatened me with the big knife to get out as he was angry with me because I requested to lower the music.

What a whopper of a story! I patronize ABP regularly and like just about all Thai service staff, they are the nicest and most courteous of people you are likely to find anywhere. If in fact you were "threatened" in any way, I would be curious to know what you did/said to initiate the confrontation. Are you sure he wasn't just lifting his knife to slice a roll to make another customer's sandwich

[popshirt]

...they refused to turn down the music too. Then, the chef/sandwich maker threatened me with the big knife to get out as he was angry with me because I requested to lower the music.

What a whopper of a story! I patronize ABP regularly and like just about all Thai service staff, they are the nicest and most courteous of people you are likely to find anywhere. If in fact you were "threatened" in any way, I would be curious to know what you did/said to initiate the confrontation. Are you sure he wasn't just lifting his knife to slice a roll to make another customer's sandwich

I find this hard to believe also. I am a frequent customer of ABP in several Bangkok outlets as well as in Pattaya. And I have never experienced loud music in any of them. As to the staff, they are always courteous and well-trained in their work. Surely there is more to this than "innovator" is telling us. Or maybe not!

[Humphrey Bear]

Some of the businesses that have/will fail at Avenue or the other malls just figured they can bring Bangkok to Pattaya. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Smart business people will figure out (by trial and error?) what works in Pattaya. Some things might work in Pattaya that don't work in Bangkok, and vice versa. For example. there are numerous dedicated Iranian restaurants in Pattaya, and only one (bad) one in Bangkok. Pattaya is a city but it is not the same city as Bangkok. Over time, its identity will morph with the times, but I wouldn't bet against its future.

Most of your posts on this thread have been saying <more and varied> eateries.

To me this is one of the problems with an open-air place like The Avanue - I get hot and I don't want to eat.

I go in Shenanigans once or twice on each visit home, but I sit for a good 15 minutes cooling-off before I order anything to eat.

And when I leave I get hot again and it ruins the digestion of the meal.

The concept really doesn't work. And for those saying that this is a beach resort, so people want the fresh air - The Avenue is on the wrong side of Second Road for people coming off the beach - Mikes Mall, RGP and so on catch those potential customers. The Avenue only gets car drivers.

[MisterFingers]

Au Bon Pain is doing business, but the last time I went in there and the final time, they refused to turn down the music too. Then, the chef/sandwich maker threatened me with the big knife to get out as he was angry with me because I requested to lower the music.

Bullshit.

[Jingthing]

The Avenue only gets car drivers.

That is absurd. There is all kinds of walk in traffic there. It is a short walk from Royal Garden and on the 2nd Road baht bus route ... obviously. By your logic Big C is also all car arrivals.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Jingthing