Inbound Usa Travelers

[NotNew2You]

The US Department of Homeland Security (and its related Customs and Border control agencies) has confirmed that notebook computers (and any other electronic device capable of storing information in digital or analog form, e.g., phones, PDAs, cameras, iPods, etc.) may be seized, held, and searched from person entering the United States, whether a citizen of the U.S. or not. These devices may be seized without cause and without suspicion of a crime being committed. They may be held for a "reasonable" time by Homeland Security (read days/months here, not hours at the airport) and the data sent for examination to other government agencies and outside contractors. "Reasonable" efforts are to be made to protect confidential business and personal information...but you know that means sh!t...and that data is to be destroyed after an examination is complete...again right!

"They're saying they can rifle through all the information in a traveler's laptop without having a smidgen of evidence that the traveler is breaking the law," said Greg Nojeim, senior counsel at the Center for Democracy and Technology. Notably, he said, the policies "don't establish any criteria for whose computer can be searched."

So welcome to the land of the Free and home of the Brave...NOT!

Here is the full story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ml?hpid=topnews

[Jingthing]

Yes, we have talked about this here before. Another symptom of not-so-friendly fascism caused by hysteria.

[NotNew2You]

Yes, we have talked about this here before.

Yes this is true. However, the details of the policy provided in the article fill-out the picture. Also, the fact that your data may be examined by many government agencies AND outside contractors is additional cause for concern. The more people who have access to your data the greater the possibility for innocent or malicious data theft. The disclosure that there is no mandate that the government's analysis (i.e., their written notes/reports) of the content of your notebook be destroyed, only their copy of the actual date itself, is also problematic.

[huggybear]

Yes, we have talked about this here before. Another symptom of not-so-friendly fascism caused by hysteria.

Spot on.

Moral of the story, if you have questionable material on your laptop, or financial info you don't want the government to see, don't go through customs with the unit. Consider having two, one to travel with, one to leave home.

[Crossy]

I'm not sure exactly what they expect to achieve by this draconian action, apart from reducing the number of business travellers arriving in the US.

I am totally sure that Bin Liner et-al have far better ways of getting their data into the country than by carrying it through airports.

A few gigs of 'gentlemans files' would also be safer being transferred via a secure server and link or even a non-secure server (there are loads of free online storage facilities now), the traffic would get lost in the general mele of the internet so unless they're tracking your traffic already.....

[mgjackson69]

This is not unique to USA. Any Customs in any country could confiscate your laptop on entry...what would you be able to do about it?

Regarding content...other than some potential embarrassment, if the "gentlemen's files" did not include child pornography, I doubt it would be any trouble.

I would be interested to know how many times this has happened, and what the specific circumstances were when it happened.

[Crossy]

This is not unique to USA. Any Customs in any country could confiscate your laptop on entry...what would you be able to do about it?

Whilst this is undoubtably true, customs in most western countries have to provide a REASON to confiscate your property (they can examine it of course and if they find something iffy then confiscate). It seems that US customs can relieve you of your property without reason and then rip it apart with no guarantee that you'll ever get it back, (sounds awfully like Thai customs and motor vehicles).

I had my laptop checked flying into Paris CDG and got ticked off for having a data encryption program (Truecrypt) installed. Apparently it is illegal in France to have data encryption software, something I didn't know, I do now. They didn't ask to open my encrypted files, just make sure it wasn't installed next time.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Crossy

[Farma]

It was only a couple of months ago that a chief executive of a major company was detained and his personal computer and blackberry inspected on arrival in the US.

I believe more than a few companies have since issued new guidelines for employees travelling into the US. The US situation opens up all possibilities including industrial espionage.

The Australian news also carried a report earlier this week of a leaked discussion paper relating to a treaty the federal government was negotiating that would allow customs to search travelers IPods and laptops for pirated music.

It suggests criminal sanctions for infringements on a commercial scale. Questions were raised on just how many songs would be classed as a commercial quantity.

[NotNew2You]

I think the main beef people have is there is no "probable cause" required to search and/or seize one's notebook or other electronic device, as there is with other types of searches. Of course, there is also the practical inconvience of being without one's notebook for days/weeks while traveling and the mechanics of getting it returned if you have already left the US.

[mgjackson69]

Crossy > ...customs in most western countries have to provide a REASON to confiscate your property...

Sure, that sounds good...but, again, if it happens, what are you going to do about it? You are in the customs line, they are tearing your kit apart, and somebody walks away with your laptop...what are you going to do? Chase the guy down and take it back? Good luck with that. I have never been body-slammed to the floor by a LEO, but I am sure it is similar to being slammed face-down onto the hood of a Crown Vic, which I have had the privilege of experiencing...not fun.

Granted, you could sort this all in court later, but I am talking about "at the time"...we really do not have many options.

Up until about 4 years ago I was not the clean-cut, suave guy I am now Trust me, I have run the gamut of "random" spot-checks, missing baggage that shows up at my hotel later and the seams have been opened and re-sewn, etc etc.

I cannot even imagine traveling with that sort of grooming now.

[pampal]

another proud moment for the US of A

Edited August 1, 2008 by pampal

[Jingthing]

another proud moment for the US of A

Freedom isn't free, wink wink nod nod.

[tezzainoz]

A friend entering the USA after a 1 month holiday in Thailand last week had his laptop siezed

He was given a paper stating that as of July 16 2008, US federal agents now have the power to seize travelers' laptops and other electronic devices when they return home to the US and hold them for however long they want,

When he complained he was told seizures do not require a suspicion of wrongdoing, and are aimed to counter child pornography and terrorism.

As he had many files on his laptop that where encrypted and could not be read by the customs officer, the laptop was immediatly siezed.

He was told contents of the laptop would not be returned until curtom officers could see the true articles and information and they could send the laptop to a private outside company to be decrypted. All single males over 40 returning from a Thai holiday are looked at seriously

If after all was done and he wanted the the laptop back he would have to pay all costs

This is no April Fools Joke, My freind swers this happened and is really upset

The US Government has not taken over policing US citizens holidaying in Thailand and many other countries where sex is cheap and easy

You have been warned

[Jingthing]

Yes, it is real, and seriously effed up. What do you expect from a hysterical country that elected a man like Bush two times? Land of free, not anymore. They can also seize and examine camera cards and all papers on you, including books, paper files, everything written including scraps of paper in your wallet. Stalin would be proud.

The terrorists have won. We have lost our freedom.

Remember the good old days when they just wanted to know how many bottles of booze you were bringing in?

Edited August 2, 2008 by Jingthing

[tezzainoz]

Just searched the et and found the following

US Federal agents can now sieze hard drives, flash drives, Cameras, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers dvds and video or audio tapes, as well as books and any written materials from any person entering the USA, US citizens included.

They can do this purely on suspicion

Oops

what happens if you met a nice young 18 year old girl in Pattaya who does not look a day over 14 and after a night of bliss you took a dozen pics to show your mates as they would never believe you. how will you explain this crossing the border

Are the great holidays in Thailand now at an end, the threat of returning home is no longer just about drugs, wodden articles you bought in a Thai Market, but all your memories that your taking home with you

[Jingthing]

Absolutely do not have any images on your laptop or camera card of anyone who looks under 30, including your children or relatives. The USA is now a kind of police state. Ignore at your own peril.

[mgjackson69]

It is on the 'net, it must be true.

[Jingthing]

It is on the 'net, it must be true.

I read it yesterday in the Washington Post. Good enough source for you? Seizures WITHOUT CAUSE!

[mgjackson69]

I never said it is not true...the part about the "unwarranted" seizures anyway. I read the same article as you cited.

I agree, it is screwed up.

But funny how, now, we have a post crops up, "It happened to my friend". And then a post from the same person which begins "Just searched the et [sic]..."

My comment was directed towards *that* mentality...

[tezzainoz]

simple answer MR. 69

While writing the post I started to wonder if this could be true or my friend was pulling my leg

Because I was unsure I decided to see if there was anything on the net as this is a serious act against freedom

I must say I was very surprised to learn that the above is true.

As I live in Australia I have no other way of checking out his story

Hope this answers your question and lets get back to what he thread refers to

Loss of Freedom and not diverted to "On the Net"

[mgjackson69]

simple answer MR. 69

While writing the post I started to wonder if this could be true or my friend was pulling my leg

Because I was unsure I decided to see if there was anything on the net as this is a serious act against freedom

I must say I was very surprised to learn that the above is true.

As I live in Australia I have no other way of checking out his story

Hope this answers your question and lets get back to what he thread refers to

Loss of Freedom and not diverted to "On the Net"

Agreed.

There was another topic on this yesterday.

In fairness to USA, this same thing could happen to us travelers anywhere.

Going through Customs into New Berzerkestan, for example, and you get waved over into the "Red Lane". As they are rifling through your gear, one of the uniforms takes your laptop and walks off with it...what are you going to do?

"Wait a minute," you say, "They have to give me a reason..."

Oh, really...if they simply say, "We are confiscating this", what are you going to do? Sure, there are procedures, ways to lodge complaints, etc...but at that time, there is not much you can do about it.

[ukrules]

All single males over 40 returning from a Thai holiday are looked at seriously

If this is official policy then I imagine it will be applied in a robotic manner like many other laws in the US and they will be confiscating hundreds of laptops each week as a matter of course, especially as it appears to be funded by the traveller.

I can quite assuredly say that this will never affect me in any way and that's not because I dont carry a laptop with me every time I travel.

[surface]

I think the key here that most people are missing is "encrypted files" which is an easy thing to avoid. Since everyone here has access to the net, and anyone who can encrypt business or personal data in case their laptop was stolen should be able to upload the encrypted files to the net somewhere then retrieve them once back it the states, it really shouldn't be that big of a deal. It's not rocket science. Sure, you may be inconvenienced when going through customs by having to wait for them to look through your laptop, but there's not much you can do about it until they change this ridiculous law, aside from leaving your laptop behind if you're an expat or not bringing one if you're a tourist.

[onnut]

Just searched the et and found the following

US Federal agents can now sieze hard drives, flash drives, Cameras, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers dvds and video or audio tapes, as well as books and any written materials from any person entering the USA, US citizens included.

They can do this purely on suspicion

Oops

what happens if you met a nice young 18 year old girl in Pattaya who does not look a day over 14 and after a night of bliss you took a dozen pics to show your mates as they would never believe you. how will you explain this crossing the border

Are the great holidays in Thailand now at an end, the threat of returning home is no longer just about drugs, wodden articles you bought in a Thai Market, but all your memories that your taking home with you

if you are banging an 18 year old and she does not look a day over 14, dont you think you are a sick puppy? if you want a girl like that, then it is because you are a PEADOPHILE

[chiang mai]

Just searched the et and found the following

US Federal agents can now sieze hard drives, flash drives, Cameras, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers dvds and video or audio tapes, as well as books and any written materials from any person entering the USA, US citizens included.

They can do this purely on suspicion

Oops

what happens if you met a nice young 18 year old girl in Pattaya who does not look a day over 14 and after a night of bliss you took a dozen pics to show your mates as they would never believe you. how will you explain this crossing the border

Are the great holidays in Thailand now at an end, the threat of returning home is no longer just about drugs, wodden articles you bought in a Thai Market, but all your memories that your taking home with you

if you are banging an 18 year old and she does not look a day over 14, dont you think you are a sick puppy? if you want a girl like that, then it is because you are a PEADOPHILE

So your definition of a pedophile is someone who has sex with a person who appears to be under 18, regardless of her actual age? OK, got it now.

[britmaveric]

Well nothing new and this happens to be the case the world over.

[Farma]

Travelers to US should leave their laptops at home

Ellen Nakashima | The Washington Post

WASHINGTON: US federal agents may take a traveler’s laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing as part of border search policies, the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed.

Also, officials may share copies of the laptop’s contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies — US Customs and Border Protection and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

“The policies... are truly alarming,” said Sen. Russell Feingold, D-Wis., who is probing the government’s border search practices. He said he intended to introduce legislation soon that would require reasonable suspicion for border searches, as well as prohibit profiling on race, religion or national origin.

DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies — which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens — are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism. Officials said such procedures have long been in place but were disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter.

Civil liberties and business travel groups have pressed the government to disclose its procedures as an increasing number of international travelers have reported that their laptops, cell phones and other digital devices have been taken — for months, in at least one case — and their contents examined.

The policies state that officers can “review and analyze information” in the traveler’s laptop and that the laptops and other devices are to be returned “in a reasonable period of time.”

The policies cover “any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,” including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover “all papers and other written documentation,” including books, pamphlets and “written materials commonly referred to as ‘pocket trash’ or ‘pocket litter’.”

Reasonable measures must be taken to protect business information and attorney-client privileged material, the policies say, but there is no specific mention of the handling of personal data such as medical and financial records. When a review is completed and no probable cause exists to keep the information, any copies of the data must be destroyed. Copies sent to nonfederal entities must be returned to DHS. But the documents specify that there is no limitation on authorities keeping written notes or reports about the materials.

“They’re saying they can rifle through all the information in a traveler’s laptop without having a smidgeon of evidence that the traveler is breaking the law,” said Greg Nojeim, senior counsel at the Center for Democracy and Technology. Notably, he said, the policies “don’t establish any criteria for whose computer can be searched.”

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff wrote in an opinion piece published last month in USA Today that “the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices.” Searches have uncovered “violent jihadist materials” as well as images of child pornography, he wrote.

With about 400 million travelers entering the United States each year, “as a practical matter, travelers only go to secondary (for a more thorough examination) when there is some level of suspicion,” Chertoff wrote. “Yet legislation locking in a particular standard for searches would have a dangerous, chilling effect as officers’ often split-second assessments are second-guessed.”

In April, the Ninth Circuit US Court of Appeals in San Francisco upheld the government’s power to conduct searches of an international traveler’s laptop without suspicion of wrongdoing.

Source http://arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&...;category=World

[Altos]

The US Department of Homeland Security (and its related Customs and Border control agencies) has confirmed that notebook computers (and any other electronic device capable of storing information in digital or analog form, e.g., phones, PDAs, cameras, iPods, etc.) may be seized, held, and searched from person entering the United States, whether a citizen of the U.S. or not.

So welcome to the land of the Free and home of the Brave...NOT!

Hey Guys - There is a German encryption system which is not obvious. The computer starts up and all looks normal but - it is only a front. One now needs coded access to get to a password protected entry to get to the real contents. Looks to me to be designed for just such a situation.

Find them at http://www.securstar.com/products_drivecrypt.php it may not be the total solution I can't remember ALL details but I am sure this will go a long way.

I have to look at this now as I travel with two laptops a 1 T external drive and an 80 G external. I am heavy into music, which is all legal, heavy into video - mostly P2P and family photos. No porn or such crap but how do you prove your music is legal in ten minutes in a foriegn country with no access to home resources. F*** amussia

Edited August 3, 2008 by Altos

[NotNew2You]

The issue has nothing to do with encryption...there are plenty of free and commercial programs for securing the data on one's notebook. The threads discussion is about the apparent power of US (maybe others too) border authorities to seize notebooks without cause and riff through their contents. Sure, one can encrypt the data and refuse to provide the password to decrypt it. However, it's likely you can kiss that notebook goodbye and you are unlikey to ever get it back and end up on some travel watch-list or blacklist if you are a non-citizen.

Maybe the best thing to do would be to by one of those new sub-notebooks for travel use or a 20-40 gig "travel" drive to use in the notebook when traveling.

[OriginalPoster]

The issue has nothing to do with encryption...there are plenty of free and commercial programs for securing the data on one's notebook. The threads discussion is about the apparent power of US (maybe others too) border authorities to seize notebooks without cause and riff through their contents. Sure, one can encrypt the data and refuse to provide the password to decrypt it. However, it's likely you can kiss that notebook goodbye and you are unlikey to ever get it back and end up on some travel watch-list or blacklist if you are a non-citizen.

Maybe the best thing to do would be to by one of those new sub-notebooks for travel use or a 20-40 gig "travel" drive to use in the notebook when traveling.

I don't know if US Customs previously had the power to confiscate laptops before, but didn't they always have the power to rifle through them without probable cause? I don't actually recall Customs Inspections as ever having been a democratic process. I had customs officials search through my luggage several times long before 911 and never once did they have "probable cause", I don't really see the diiference between them rifling through my luggage and them rifling through my laptop except that the latter might take more time.

Edited August 3, 2008 by OriginalPoster