Uk State Pensions In Thailand

[GuestHouse]

Retirement for me is a long way off yet, but the rules against UK Pensioners in certain countries not receiving Annual Cost of Living Increases is something I feel strongly about.

Well and election is not far off, now is the time to influence party policy.

I've written to both the Conservative and the Liberal Parties as follows:

Nu-Laour have refused to remove clauses in the Pension rules that prevent overseas British Pensioners in certain countries from receiving cost of living increases. This has the direct impact of driving many overseas British Pensioners into poverty.

It is also an injustice deserving of being put right.

Some important points:

Retiring overseas is an aspiration of a very large percentage of Britons.

The Overseas vote is significant and growing

People do not trust Nu-Labour on Pensions

I ask the ****** Party to consider removing this 'spite and envy' clause from the pension rules, to remove very many overseas British Pensioners out of poverty and to offer the ******* Party's support to British Pensioners being allowed to follow their dreams without being penalized for doing so.

Let the ******* Party stand for Fair State Pensions for all British Pensioners.

Come on guys, get writing - you've got a chance now of doing something about this unfair treatment of pensioners.

Edited August 1, 2008 by GuestHouse

[Chaimai]

Looks like an Early Day Motion to me ?

[patongpanda]

What's a ******* party?

Is is taking place in Patong?

[chiang mai]

Who will join Lionheart, or is it Quixote.

[Maizefarmer]

Yes - it does seem unjust - does anyone know what the reasoning is?

The issue is raised every year with MP's up and down the UK - to date the Treasury has being immovable.

If you have your own house and a younger family member to stay in it (and to discreetly "represent" you) - who's to notice your absense and a monthly standing order from your UK account to your Thai account (to forward pensions and benefits) - any reason why that should be noticed? The problem is really for retirees reliant on social housing (your "absence" is sure to be noticed (and reported) by a nosey neighbour)).

[apetley]

Thanks for starting this topic GH.

Very good idea to start the writing campaign imo.

So long as the issue is kept 'in their face' then they cannot just ignore it.

I would urge anyone who is interested to have a look at and join

http://www.britishpensions.org.au/

It is not just for those in Aus as the link suggests but is fighting for fair pensions abroad for all British expats.

[TBWG]

Hi

This point should be taken seriously by all UK passport holders after all baring unfortunate circumstances we will all be pensioners at some stage.

To me it seems petty minded and spiteful to selectively punish anyone who choses to live out their retirement overseas. However New Labour has been encouraging us to take responsibility for our own pensions and at the same time stealthily pillaging pension funds so is it any wonder we are treated badly.

So maybe a letter or 2 would not go amiss, at least when crying in ones occasional treat of a beer a few years down the line at least you did try to do something positive rather than just criticize the original post.

Another point which has crossed my mind is that should the govt departments ever get there act together and liaise, with the new biometric passports which everyone will have to have within under 10 years then the pensions dept would have access to all your overseas movements and know who was where and for how long! Big Brother huh!

TBWG

[billd766]

I finally left the UK back in 1999 and apart from my son, my exwife and I few friends I have no connections there.

How would I find the MP who would be my representative?

[phusingpete]

Hi

This point should be taken seriously by all UK passport holders after all baring unfortunate circumstances we will all be pensioners at some stage.

To me it seems petty minded and spiteful to selectively punish anyone who choses to live out their retirement overseas. However New Labour has been encouraging us to take responsibility for our own pensions and at the same time stealthily pillaging pension funds so is it any wonder we are treated badly.

So maybe a letter or 2 would not go amiss, at least when crying in ones occasional treat of a beer a few years down the line at least you did try to do something positive rather than just criticize the original post.

Another point which has crossed my mind is that should the govt departments ever get there act together and liaise, with the new biometric passports which everyone will have to have within under 10 years then the pensions dept would have access to all your overseas movements and know who was where and for how long! Big Brother huh!

TBWG

Hi,

I am just now going through the process of claiming my state pension,been going on since november. It is the principle involved here the irks me, I have never had any state benefit, worked all my life and paid my dues, now they work diligently to give me the minimum possible. However at the other end of the machine they take as much tax from me as possible, even though I am not living there or using their amenities.

Is it true that if I return to uk they make up the difference in my pension. I usually do a trip now and then.

cheers Phusing

[Soutpeel]

Gents...FYI

This type of case has been fought and lost already...

Frozen PensionsState pensions to UK residents in South Africa are not increased annually in line with inflation. Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later. Some pensioners living overseas do receive increases that keep their pensions in line with inflation, but only in those countries where the UK has reciprocal social security agreements. This is not the case in South Africa.

The issue of index-linking state pensions was the subject of a landmark Court of Appeal decision in the Annette Carson (UK resident in South Africa) case. This confirmed that the Government has no duty to up-rate state pensions to those living abroad where there is no legal requirement to do so, or where there is no reciprocal arrangement in place. An appeal lodged by Ms Carson was rejected by the House of Lords in May 2005.

[prakhonchai nick]

2 points to consider.

1) The Human rights Court are due to consider frozen pensions sometime later this year. They MAY find against the UK government, but the result is apparently not legally binding.

2) For anyone living in Thailand, married or with a permanent partner, it is possible to claim an additional pension (worth some £50+ a week!), provided you reach 65 BEFORE 5th April 2010. After that the additional pension is not claimable, but those already receiving it will continue to receive it until April 2020, unless their wives/partners either die or can claim a pension in their own right.

Another point worth noting is that for any time spent in the UK (holiday or otherwise) after receipt of the frozen pension, you may claim the increase for the time spent in the UK. Best to notify them of the dates before you start your journey.

[rixalex]

Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later.

Can anyone confirm that this is definitely the case? I always thought the freezing occured from when you first started receiving the pension, but if it's from the date you left the UK, it would make the pension pretty worthless for someone like me who left the UK in their 20s.

[coxhoedave]

In a few years time my wife and I are going to retire in the LOS so this is more than a little annoying!

As Soutpeel has already said the case has already been fought and lost but it will not stop me contacting every Tom, Dick and Harry about it to make them aware of this grossly unfair rule.

If anyone else is of the same mind go to

http://www.writetothem.com/

If you write in a UK postcode in the bod that appears it will allow you to contact your MP, Euro MPs. a member of the House Of Lords or even local councillors.

So calling all Brits get emailing and moan and whinge as only we can to make sure thay all aware of this idiotic rule!

[Kevin17]

Yes - it does seem unjust - does anyone know what the reasoning is?

The issue is raised every year with MP's up and down the UK - to date the Treasury has being immovable.

If you have your own house and a younger family member to stay in it (and to discreetly "represent" you) - who's to notice your absense and a monthly standing order from your UK account to your Thai account (to forward pensions and benefits) - any reason why that should be noticed? The problem is really for retirees reliant on social housing (your "absence" is sure to be noticed (and reported) by a nosey neighbour)).

I would have thought that another reason to keep an address in the UK is to maintain entitlement to the NHS. That is lost if you are not resident in the UK. I suppose the down side is that you would still be liable for UK tax.

[rixalex]

Yes - it does seem unjust - does anyone know what the reasoning is?

The issue is raised every year with MP's up and down the UK - to date the Treasury has being immovable.

If you have your own house and a younger family member to stay in it (and to discreetly "represent" you) - who's to notice your absense and a monthly standing order from your UK account to your Thai account (to forward pensions and benefits) - any reason why that should be noticed? The problem is really for retirees reliant on social housing (your "absence" is sure to be noticed (and reported) by a nosey neighbour)).

I would have thought that another reason to keep an address in the UK is to maintain entitlement to the NHS. That is lost if you are not resident in the UK. I suppose the down side is that you would still be liable for UK tax.

Keeping an address is one thing, declaring that you a UK resident when you aren't is another. All i'm saying is, don't take the UK authorities for fools. They've seen it all before.

To Guesthouse and anyone else who knows: this matter of freezing pensions always seemed to me to be something of a non-issue. I mean, if as a man you start receiving your pension at 68 and it's frozen from this point on, chances are that you won't lose a lot, assuming you pass away at an average sort of age like 75. In seven years i don't suppose there will have been much of an increase. If you live to a ripe old age i admit it becomes more of a concern, but how many of us are lucky enough to do this?

But have i completely misunderstood? Does, as another poster suggested, the freezing happen the moment you declare yourself non-resident? This would make a massive difference for all us non-residents who have a way to go before retirement. The 90 pounds a week as i believe it currently stands, is not likely to be worth much in 30 odd years time now is it.

[prakhonchai nick]

Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later.

Can anyone confirm that this is definitely the case? I always thought the freezing occured from when you first started receiving the pension, but if it's from the date you left the UK, it would make the pension pretty worthless for someone like me who left the UK in their 20s.

Your info is not correct.

Regardless of the date you left the UK, you are entitled to the full pension at age 65 (but this is dependent on your NI contributions) If you are aged 65 before April 6th 2010, you need 44 contributions to obtain the full pension. (minimum 10 contributions) If you are 65 on or after 6th April 2010, you need only 30 NI contributions to receive a full pension, (For each contribution you will receive 1/30th of the pension.

Once you receive the pension, irrespective of how much, it is currently frozen if you live in Thailand. But for any time spent in the UK* you can ask to receive the higher amount.

* This would probably also be the case if you were to spend any time in the EEC or any other country where the pension is not frozen.

If you do not have enough contributions you can make voluntary contributions. Class 3 NI contributions cost around £380 a year.

Hope this helps

[Dave the Dude]

Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later.

Can anyone confirm that this is definitely the case? I always thought the freezing occured from when you first started receiving the pension, but if it's from the date you left the UK, it would make the pension pretty worthless for someone like me who left the UK in their 20s.

Did you all know that the guys who make these decisions (Civil Servants) DO NOT GET THEIR PENSIONS FROZEN. One rule for the rich, or what!

It has been deemed that they have done the country a public service (Worked for pay ) so are exempt. The campaigner mentioned previously successfully won her case and got the FREEZE LIFTED due to the fact she was a council employee (teacher, I think). I recollect she has now passed away.

Dave (Mr Angry of Surin)

[rixalex]

Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later.

Can anyone confirm that this is definitely the case? I always thought the freezing occured from when you first started receiving the pension, but if it's from the date you left the UK, it would make the pension pretty worthless for someone like me who left the UK in their 20s.

Your info is not correct.

Regardless of the date you left the UK, you are entitled to the full pension at age 65 (but this is dependent on your NI contributions) If you are aged 65 before April 6th 2010, you need 44 contributions to obtain the full pension. (minimum 10 contributions) If you are 65 on or after 6th April 2010, you need only 30 NI contributions to receive a full pension, (For each contribution you will receive 1/30th of the pension.

Once you receive the pension, irrespective of how much, it is currently frozen if you live in Thailand. But for any time spent in the UK* you can ask to receive the higher amount.

* This would probably also be the case if you were to spend any time in the EEC or any other country where the pension is not frozen.

If you do not have enough contributions you can make voluntary contributions. Class 3 NI contributions cost around £380 a year.

Hope this helps

Yes that does - thanks Nick.

It wasn't actually my info, but something that the poster soutpeel mentioned in this thread, but perhaps it was only concerning those in South Africa???

As far as the age of pension for men is concerned, i'm sure i read on something official looking recently that it will go up from 65 to 68 in 20 years or so. Or did i misunderstand?

[prakhonchai nick]

As far as the age of pension for men is concerned, i'm sure i read on something official looking recently that it will go up from 65 to 68 in 20 years or so. Or did i misunderstand?

It will rise gradually from age 65 to 68, but I don't know when it will start - doesn't concern me as I get mine at 65

www.thepensionservice.gov.uk This web site has all the relevant info

[Soutpeel]

Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later.

Can anyone confirm that this is definitely the case? I always thought the freezing occured from when you first started receiving the pension, but if it's from the date you left the UK, it would make the pension pretty worthless for someone like me who left the UK in their 20s.

Your info is not correct.

Regardless of the date you left the UK, you are entitled to the full pension at age 65 (but this is dependent on your NI contributions) If you are aged 65 before April 6th 2010, you need 44 contributions to obtain the full pension. (minimum 10 contributions) If you are 65 on or after 6th April 2010, you need only 30 NI contributions to receive a full pension, (For each contribution you will receive 1/30th of the pension.

Once you receive the pension, irrespective of how much, it is currently frozen if you live in Thailand. But for any time spent in the UK* you can ask to receive the higher amount.

* This would probably also be the case if you were to spend any time in the EEC or any other country where the pension is not frozen.

If you do not have enough contributions you can make voluntary contributions. Class 3 NI contributions cost around £380 a year.

Hope this helps

Yes that does - thanks Nick.

It wasn't actually my info, but something that the poster soutpeel mentioned in this thread, but perhaps it was only concerning those in South Africa???

As far as the age of pension for men is concerned, i'm sure i read on something official looking recently that it will go up from 65 to 68 in 20 years or so. Or did i misunderstand?

Nick, South Africa was mentioned as there are about 250,000 people living there drawing UK pensions and do not get the increases, This saga has been going on for years and know a bit about it as my parents are UK pensioners living in SA and have signed the petitions, letter etc.

If these people lived in Austrialia they would get the increases as believe the reciprocal agreements are in place. If Thailand does not have a similar agreements in place.....People "officially" retired in Thailand will not receive the increases either....think the whole issue around this is the feeling is people are being discriminated against based on the country they are retired/resident in (rightly so, I might add)

If two sets of people make the same contributions in the UK and one set retire to SA - No increase

Other set retire to Aussie - Get the increases

Obviously not a fair arrangement.

[Andrew Hicks]

Yes - it does seem unjust - does anyone know what the reasoning is?

The issue is raised every year with MP's up and down the UK - to date the Treasury has being immovable.

If you have your own house and a younger family member to stay in it (and to discreetly "represent" you) - who's to notice your absense and a monthly standing order from your UK account to your Thai account (to forward pensions and benefits) - any reason why that should be noticed? The problem is really for retirees reliant on social housing (your "absence" is sure to be noticed (and reported) by a nosey neighbour)).

I think that at 65 you have to fill a form to apply for your pension and you have to say where you're resident. The onus is therefore on you to tell a porkie if you want the annual increases.

Even though they tax your pension you may still be refused the increases.

While writing to your MP why not mention the rule that removes you from NHS entitlement if you are out of the country for three months. If your doctor is sharp on this point you could get a fat bill, while thousands of medical tourists turn up at Heathrow for the purpose and are given free treatment.

There seem to be no mechanisms for preventing this or establishing the total cost. Yet expats who have paid taxes all their lives and continue to do so on their pensions are penalised.

[apetley]

Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later.

Can anyone confirm that this is definitely the case? I always thought the freezing occured from when you first started receiving the pension, but if it's from the date you left the UK, it would make the pension pretty worthless for someone like me who left the UK in their 20s.

Did you all know that the guys who make these decisions (Civil Servants) DO NOT GET THEIR PENSIONS FROZEN. One rule for the rich, or what!

It has been deemed that they have done the country a public service (Worked for pay ) so are exempt. The campaigner mentioned previously successfully won her case and got the FREEZE LIFTED due to the fact she was a council employee (teacher, I think). I recollect she has now passed away.

Dave (Mr Angry of Surin)

Dave, the Civil Servants who made this decision are a tiny tiny proportion of the majority of UK Civil Servants so please do not tar them all with the same brush.

I am very proud of the time I worked as a UK Civil Servant. I worked for Ordnance Survey, maker of the best maps in the world but did not get rich doing so. I just loved the job I did.

My Civil Service Pension will not be frozen, however my State Pension will be.

I believe it is right that any pension I receive is indexed and will continue to lobby the UK Government until they grant that right or I am unable to do so.

[Sophon]

Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later.

Can anyone confirm that this is definitely the case? I always thought the freezing occured from when you first started receiving the pension, but if it's from the date you left the UK, it would make the pension pretty worthless for someone like me who left the UK in their 20s.

I don't understand your argument. It does say "which ever is later" so for you it would be frozen when you start receiving the pension (which is like you thought it would be), it doesn't matter that you left in your 20'es. But for someone who was already receiving a pension when leaving the U.K., the pension would be frozen at the level it stood when he left - not at the original level when he started receiving the pension.

Sophon

[prakhonchai nick]

Nick, South Africa was mentioned as there are about 250,000 people living there drawing UK pensions and do not get the increases, This saga has been going on for years and know a bit about it as my parents are UK pensioners living in SA and have signed the petitions, letter etc.

If these people lived in Austrialia they would get the increases as believe the reciprocal agreements are in place. If Thailand does not have a similar agreements in place.....People "officially" retired in Thailand will not receive the increases either....think the whole issue around this is the feeling is people are being discriminated against based on the country they are retired/resident in (rightly so, I might add)

If two sets of people make the same contributions in the UK and one set retire to SA - No increase

Other set retire to Aussie - Get the increases

Obviously not a fair arrangement.

I think Brits living in Australia also have frozen pensions, although the Aus gov't do help out. Canada is another country where the pensions are frozen, but if you go to the Phillipines, you get the increases. Have a look here

http://youle.info/bpia/

With regard to some other postings where it is suggested that you do not disclose that you are in Thailand - I would strongly advise against.

The claim form asks very clearly whether you live or have ever lived overseas and requires detailed info. If you lie this is fraud. All government depts (even at a local level) have their computers interlinked, and it will only be a matter of time before you are found out. (Why for example are you not on the electoral register; if you have children why don;t you claim child benefit (and if you do and they want to see birth certs, they may find the kids were born in Thailand and likely still there) They will eventually catch up with you and then you will be in big trouble!

DON'T DO IT!

[prakhonchai nick]

Gents...FYI

This type of case has been fought and lost already...

Frozen PensionsState pensions to UK residents in South Africa are not increased annually in line with inflation. Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later. Some pensioners living overseas do receive increases that keep their pensions in line with inflation, but only in those countries where the UK has reciprocal social security agreements. This is not the case in South Africa.

The issue of index-linking state pensions was the subject of a landmark Court of Appeal decision in the Annette Carson (UK resident in South Africa) case. This confirmed that the Government has no duty to up-rate state pensions to those living abroad where there is no legal requirement to do so, or where there is no reciprocal arrangement in place. An appeal lodged by Ms Carson was rejected by the House of Lords in May 2005.

This is correct, BUT the matter has now been referred to the Court of Human Rights, and is likely to be heard later this year. So there is still hope!

[rixalex]

Instead, they are frozen, either from the date the person first became entitled to a state pension, or from the date that they left the UK, depending on which is the later.

Can anyone confirm that this is definitely the case? I always thought the freezing occured from when you first started receiving the pension, but if it's from the date you left the UK, it would make the pension pretty worthless for someone like me who left the UK in their 20s.

I don't understand your argument. It does say "which ever is later" so for you it would be frozen when you start receiving the pension (which is like you thought it would be), it doesn't matter that you left in your 20'es. But for someone who was already receiving a pension when leaving the U.K., the pension would be frozen at the level it stood when he left - not at the original level when he started receiving the pension.

Sophon

Thank you Sophon. I didn't actually have an argument that needed to be understood, but a question regarding someone else's comment. I now see my question was flawed as i had misunderstood the wording. I took "later" to mean "the longest time" rather than "the latest", as it's obviously supposed to mean. My apologies.

Edited August 16, 2008 by rixalex

[Patriciachas]

Yes - it does seem unjust - does anyone know what the reasoning is?

The issue is raised every year with MP's up and down the UK - to date the Treasury has being immovable.

If you have your own house and a younger family member to stay in it (and to discreetly "represent" you) - who's to notice your absense and a monthly standing order from your UK account to your Thai account (to forward pensions and benefits) - any reason why that should be noticed? The problem is really for retirees reliant on social housing (your "absence" is sure to be noticed (and reported) by a nosey neighbour)).

Your pension is frozen from the day that it payable from.not from the day you leave the uk.

I would have thought that another reason to keep an address in the UK is to maintain entitlement to the NHS. That is lost if you are not resident in the UK. I suppose the down side is that you would still be liable for UK tax.

Keeping an address is one thing, declaring that you a UK resident when you aren't is another. All i'm saying is, don't take the UK authorities for fools. They've seen it all before.

To Guesthouse and anyone else who knows: this matter of freezing pensions always seemed to me to be something of a non-issue. I mean, if as a man you start receiving your pension at 68 and it's frozen from this point on, chances are that you won't lose a lot, assuming you pass away at an average sort of age like 75. In seven years i don't suppose there will have been much of an increase. If you live to a ripe old age i admit it becomes more of a concern, but how many of us are lucky enough to do this?

But have i completely misunderstood? Does, as another poster suggested, the freezing happen the moment you declare yourself non-resident? This would make a massive difference for all us non-residents who have a way to go before retirement. The 90 pounds a week as i believe it currently stands, is not likely to be worth much in 30 odd years time now is it.

[CRUNCHER]

As stated, this case is now before the European Court of Human Rights. For a number of varying reasons it has dragged on for ages and is not expected to be determined before the autumn at the earliest.

The case is being broughts by members of the Canadian Alliance of British Pensioners. For anyone who wants to monitor progress they can bookmark their website which is as follows:-

http://www.britishpensions.com/media.html

[rixalex]

Apologies for slightly deviating from the topic, but i have a question regarding the UK state pension, and having already received some great advice from GuestHouse, wondered if i might trouble for some more...

I've just received my pension forecast which tells me that i have 10 years of qualifying contributions, and with the new law, this means i require just 20 more to get a full pension.

Now i had previously been preparing myself to pay voluntary contributions for the last ten years i have missed living in Thailand, but it has dawned on me that perhaps this might not be necessary. I'm in my 30s now. Would it not be ok to wait until i'm about 45 years old, and then start to make voluntary contributions on a year by year basis, this way giving me the extra 20 years required for the full pension. Or does there come a point when you have not been contributing so long that it's not possible to pick up where you left off?

Is there any argument to get the 30 full years on contributions paid as quickly as possible?

[GuestHouse]

I think it is a good idea to make contributions when you can, there is not guarantee that at some later date the right to make contributions shall not be removed.