Samak Will Announce Resignation Thursday Morning?

[Smithson]

Imho the PAD would be better off arguing for stronger, better and more independent check and balance mechanisms particularly in terms of electoral oversight, and a greater transparency in all things political and of course any chnage to the constitituion that allows government to nullify these mechanisms. That is reasonable and part of the debate over freedom of elected government to act versus mechnisms to stop governmental abuse.

I agree, I find the PAD's idea of 'new politics' very scary. I understand why they think the rural majority aren't educated enough to make informed decisions, however returning to appointed officials is a step backwards.

No government has really tried to reform education or make rural ppl aware of their rights. I believe the elite are scared of the prospect of Isan ppl becoming empowered and challenging their grip on power and this is reflected in many of the things being said by PAD supporters.

There's no doubt all this talk about "new politics" is the Achilles Heel of the PAD movement - no wonder the pro-TRT/PPP sides are jumping on it at every opportunity. It doesn't if it's the most amazing idea ever coined, if it's not democratic as the western media understands it you'll only invite scorn.

I can't see any reason for the 'new politics' except for the elite to get a firmer grip on power. Accountability is crucial for fighting corruption, appointed officials will be less accountable.

Corruption is rife in Thailand, it's not unique to politicians. It's a state of mind within the ppl and this is what needs to be tackled.

[Plus]

Proportional representation, I mentioned it at least a couple of times - separate national and local politics altogether.

They'd need to set up stronger local governments and give them bigger budgets, though.

They can't leave the present system as it is - it's completly disfunctional and hopeless.

Yes, parlament oversees the government, but does itin reality? For the past six-seven years it was the most useless political body in Thailand.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

My source confirms that Samak will announce his resignation in the morning.

If he doesn't, I will run naked through the PAD crowd.

Please advise what time you will start your run.

[younghusband]

Imho the PAD would be better off arguing for stronger, better and more independent check and balance mechanisms particularly in terms of electoral oversight, and a greater transparency in all things political and of course any chnage to the constitituion that allows government to nullify these mechanisms. That is reasonable and part of the debate over freedom of elected government to act versus mechnisms to stop governmental abuse.

I agree, I find the PAD's idea of 'new politics' very scary. I understand why they think the rural majority aren't educated enough to make informed decisions, however returning to appointed officials is a step backwards.

No government has really tried to reform education or make rural ppl aware of their rights. I believe the elite are scared of the prospect of Isan ppl becoming empowered and challenging their grip on power and this is reflected in many of the things being said by PAD supporters.

There's no doubt all this talk about "new politics" is the Achilles Heel of the PAD movement - no wonder the pro-TRT/PPP sides are jumping on it at every opportunity. It doesn't if it's the most amazing idea ever coined, if it's not democratic as the western media understands it you'll only invite scorn.

The western media will give you a pass on appointed upper deliberative houses as the west has a plethora of odd ones, but the lower legislative house must be fully elected by some system.

Actually why dont the PAD argue for proportional representation. That is more democratic than what Thailand currently has and makes it pretty damned hard for any party to get an overall majority. It also undermines local power families by getting rid of constituencies. That would be a reasonable addition to the debate.

Good point though perhaps I should that the lower elected house will always ultimately be pre-eminent.The upper house does have the opportunity -indeed the duty- to question and amend legislation including finance bills.But the elected house always has the last word.

[ubonjoe]

My source confirms that Samak will announce his resignation in the morning.

If he doesn't, I will run naked through the PAD crowd.

Please advise what time you will start your run.

I haven't seen any news reports about this so I guess it hasn't happened yet.

[younghusband]

Proportional representation, I mentioned it at least a couple of times - separate national and local politics altogether.

They'd need to set up stronger local governments and give them bigger budgets, though.

They can't leave the present system as it is - it's completly disfunctional and hopeless.

Yes, parlament oversees the government, but does itin reality? For the past six-seven years it was the most useless political body in Thailand.

Hallelujah.I'm in agreement to all of this.PR does seem a sensible way forward.

[ubonjoe]

Proportional representation, I mentioned it at least a couple of times - separate national and local politics altogether.

They'd need to set up stronger local governments and give them bigger budgets, though.

They can't leave the present system as it is - it's completly disfunctional and hopeless.

Yes, parlament oversees the government, but does itin reality? For the past six-seven years it was the most useless political body in Thailand.

Hallelujah.I'm in agreement to all of this.PR does seem a sensible way forward.

In other words.

Decentralization of the government.

[Plus]

PR might work wonders for national politics, and it excludes vote buying from the process altogether - it's the national policies and capabilities that matter, not promises bridges, extra canals, or plain old 100 baht notes. That kind of crap they can pull in their local elections, people will sniff it out in no time.

Proper budgeting is a must, though. Traditionally MPs go to Bangkok to come back with the money, it shouldn't be like that, they should have plenty in local budgets, by law, not on a whim.

[Thai at Heart]

"Should the rural and urban poor, who form the largest block of voters, be returned to feudal times and be made to accept rule by a small group of self-righteous and supposedly benign rulers - leaders that would be appointed by an even a smaller group of "benign" elite?"

Yet again, there's nothing in "new politics" about small groups of self-righteous and supposedly benign rulers. There's "various occupations and associations".

Obviously, the bigger the group or an association, the better chance of getting into parliament it gets.

The difference in crucial.

Another evidence that Pravit has stopped listening to anyone but himself a long time ago. Or maybe he reads a lot of Thai visa.

I implore anyone who wants to understand who Sondhi sees as "his" middle class to read this article. Ironically, it is printed by one of his own paper's, and may be ghosted. But since numerous people have quoted it before I will also.

I do not believe he is championing the rights of the middle class at all. He is proposing disenfranchisement of part of the population on the basis of wealth, which also represents ethnicity. It is not relevant for us to debate the why's and wherefores of various policies when the agenda is so obviously ethnic.

I didn't want to bring ethnicity into the discussion, but this is becoming ridiculous when people are saying that if 70:30 is bad but 50:50 is some benign middle ground. These words came out of this guy's mouth and are truly frightening for the future of this country. This country falls fowl of the most awful ethnic and societal stereotypes and he is proposing an increase in the power of one over all the rest. They are already immensely powerful controlling well over 50% of the wealth of this country.

One can only imagine the shivers that went through so called middle class and elite when Thaksin sold his company to an overseas concern. He wasn't selling the country, he was showing a very powerful group that they may not get as much of the pie in future also.

Quote:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/ID27Ae02.html

Well, because I can command the people. You see I have a different way of looking at things. Politically, I always believe that if I can get the middle classes all across the country to be on my side, the middle classes are the ones who suffer most, whose rights have been infringed upon, who have been taxed to the hilt, who haven't been given a chance or opportunity to get what they deserve.

Then here I came and they all came out because I represent them. Ninety percent of the middle class have Chinese blood. They look up at me and say, he is my man who dares to speak on my behalf. And I sincerely believe and still do that if we can organize this middle class well, arouse their political rights, telling them that they have rights as much as the elite have, it's time to get up and protect our rights, that is a threat.

So there was an ethnic-Chinese component to your anti-government rallies?

Of course. Their biggest mistake after kicking Thaksin out, instead of allying with me and agreeing with me that there is a need to reform the whole country, they look at me as a threat. So they cut me off.

[Plus]

He clearly say he's been cut off by the elites and he's seen as a thread to them.

So, Thai at heart, you can't find any quotes about Sondhi's plan of elites taking over the country, or any disenfranching of voters, and bring "ethnicity" card instead.

Make up your mind.

[Thai at Heart]

He clearly say he's been cut off by the elites and he's seen as a thread to them.

So, Thai at heart, you can't find any quotes about Sondhi's plan of elites taking over the country, or any disenfranching of voters, and bring "ethnicity" card instead.

Make up your mind.

That was quoted after he had completed his initial campaign to oust Thaksin. Now he is well and truly back in the ring. Situations change. Championing the rights of the middle class again, and telling us now that the rural voter should have a lesser say than the so called middle class who as he says happens to be 90% of one group.

[hammered]

Proportional representation, I mentioned it at least a couple of times - separate national and local politics altogether.

They'd need to set up stronger local governments and give them bigger budgets, though.

They can't leave the present system as it is - it's completly disfunctional and hopeless.

Yes, parlament oversees the government, but does itin reality? For the past six-seven years it was the most useless political body in Thailand.

Hallelujah.I'm in agreement to all of this.PR does seem a sensible way forward.

Find myself in agreement with the both of you

[geovalin]

As the Issan people are called Issan people alike a kind of race.

Would you call the PAD members: Sino-Thai, Thai, Siamese or do you think the current problem has NOTHING to do with ethnic groups (if any ethnic groups in Thailand)?

I do not want to be provocative. I just want to understand.

+

You who discuss with PAD people, did you really hear stories about Issan people being... well... not as clever as them? If yes, why: being uneducated or being Issan?

If too provocative, please delete my post.

[Old Man River]

Proportional representation, I mentioned it at least a couple of times - separate national and local politics altogether.

They'd need to set up stronger local governments and give them bigger budgets, though.

They can't leave the present system as it is - it's completly disfunctional and hopeless.

Yes, parlament oversees the government, but does itin reality? For the past six-seven years it was the most useless political body in Thailand.

Hallelujah.I'm in agreement to all of this.PR does seem a sensible way forward.

In other words.

Decentralization of the government.

I really don't know a whole lot about PR, but the current system surely needs an overhaul. What little I have read on it (in the past 5 minutes), it does seem to have a lot of merit for Thailand.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Old Man River

[tomo22]

Have to agree with Ironhut, this thread has become a farce, I have now learnt that falangs here can't see the difference between the US [mainly] and Europe [minority] and the others that are so entrenched into the [Thai] way that constructive debate is a waste of time.

I hoped this forum would give reasoned debate and information, whilst we all disagree with each other, slagging each other off and flaming lends weight to the Thai problem that there is no solution.

Think about it.

Could not agrre with you more on this particular post.

Constructive debate on Thai Visa Vanished a long time ago. Most is the same as this.

[Plus]

I assume PR for Thailand would mean parlament formed on the basis of party list vote only. That sounds good, but there are caveats, too. How the local interests will be represented on the national level? Eventually there will be interest overlaps, like with Southern seaboard or nuclear power station - national projects that affect local people, but how to make their voices heard?

[sabaijai]

As the Issan people are called Issan people alike a kind of race.

Would you call the PAD members: Sino-Thai, Thai, Siamese or do you think the current problem has NOTHING to do with ethnic groups (if any ethnic groups in Thailand)?

I do not want to be provocative. I just want to understand.

+

You who discuss with PAD people, did you really hear stories about Issan people being... well... not as clever as them? If yes, why: being uneducated or being Issan?

If too provocative, please delete my post.

If I understand what you're saying, it's not provocative at all. I don't think ethnic politics play into it. The PAD has supporters from all regions of the country, as any visit to the protest site will reveal. And there are plenty of Thais of all backgrounds who may not be fully pro-PAD but who still want Samak and PPP out. The Democrats received the highest popular vote in the 2007 elections. If Samak had treated the coalition with respect, the PAD wouldn't have come out in the first place.

I haven't heard any Isan or other ethnic slurs from PAD supporters. Most of the leadership on both sides of the conflict is Chinese Thai, but that's nothing new. I believe many Isan MPs are of Chinese descent as well.

[Plus]

Actaully, after the final tally, PPP pipped the Democrats by a few thousand in the party list votes. Democrats led the count until the last minute.

[Thai at Heart]

As the Issan people are called Issan people alike a kind of race.

Would you call the PAD members: Sino-Thai, Thai, Siamese or do you think the current problem has NOTHING to do with ethnic groups (if any ethnic groups in Thailand)?

I do not want to be provocative. I just want to understand.

+

You who discuss with PAD people, did you really hear stories about Issan people being... well... not as clever as them? If yes, why: being uneducated or being Issan?

If too provocative, please delete my post.

If I understand what you're saying, it's not provocative at all. I don't think ethnic politics play into it. The PAD has supporters from all regions of the country, as any visit to the protest site will reveal. And there are plenty of Thais of all backgrounds who may not be fully pro-PAD but who still want Samak and PPP out. The Democrats received the highest popular vote in the 2007 elections. If Samak had treated the coalition with respect, the PAD wouldn't have come out in the first place.

I haven't heard any Isan or other ethnic slurs from PAD supporters. Most of the leadership on both sides of the conflict is Chinese Thai, but that's nothing new. I believe many Isan MPs are of Chinese descent as well.

But Sondhi has said things about this, and in light of his beliefs/suggestions about new politics seems to recognise the differences between middle classes and the rural poor.

"Then here I came and they all came out because I represent them. Ninety percent of the middle class have Chinese blood. They look up at me and say, he is my man who dares to speak on my behalf. And I sincerely believe and still do that if we can organize this middle class well, arouse their political rights, telling them that they have rights as much as the elite have, it's time to get up and protect our rights, that is a threat.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/ID27Ae02.html

I don't believe the majority of PAD supporters think like this, but such a statement as this from a leader is very worrying particularly with the blame for Thailand's problems being partly laid at the rural poor's feet.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

There is much being said about the rights and votes of the Isaan poor. But what about this government's 'you are either for us or against us' mentality? What about the southern poor, the central region poor? They are not being represented by this government and they are just as disenchanted as the so called urban elite. While money is being poured into those who voted for the government, what happens to those Thai citizens who also voted but for - in the gov's eyes - the wrong party?

[sabaijai]

Actaully, after the final tally, PPP pipped the Democrats by a few thousand in the party list votes. Democrats led the count until the last minute.

The Thai government has a website that posts final results, and it showed the Dems ahead by a few thou. I can't find the link now but I browsed through it a couple of days ago. At any rate the PPP filled the seats it needed to put Samak in the PM's seat.

[sabaijai]

Actaully, after the final tally, PPP pipped the Democrats by a few thousand in the party list votes. Democrats led the count until the last minute.

The Thai government has a website that posts final results, and it showed the Dems ahead by a few thou. I can't find the link now but I browsed through it a couple of days ago. Do you have a source?

[Thai at Heart]

There is much being said about the rights and votes of the Isaan poor. But what about this government's 'you are either for us or against us' mentality? What about the southern poor, the central region poor? They are not being represented by this government and they are just as disenchanted as the so called urban elite. While money is being poured into those who voted for the government, what happens to those Thai citizens who also voted but for - in the gov's eyes - the wrong party?

Equally, Thaksin saying if you don't vote for me you don't get any money was one of the most abominable things I have ever heard. The whole system is wrong, but I fear greatly what might happen if the ideas of Sondhi are given real credence. I would love to be proven wrong but who would have thought that Thailand could be in such a mess.

Why would one want to take anything away from the poor of the country? And believe me they are poor.

From the Post today:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/280808_News/28Aug2008_news13.php

"To PAD watchers like Professor Prabhas Pintoptang of Chulalongkorn's faculty of political science, the coalition has been seen as planting structural hatred and division in society on a scale far worse than that ever achieved by the previous government under ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra."

"Just days after Prof Prabhas criticised the PAD through his writings, his name was mentioned on the PAD stage, with the subjective argument that Prof Prabhas had worked for years with the Assembly of the Poor (AOP) as an adviser simply to gain popularity."

Edited September 5, 2008 by Thai at Heart

[Thai at Heart]

Well I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, about ethnicity, but here it is:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=789

During the first 25 days of the rally, the PAD received 26 million baht and paid 24 million, according to the PAD’s coordinator Suriyasai Katasila. During the three months, the PAD has sold 90,000 ‘Patriotic Chinese Descendants’ t-shirts for 25 million baht, according to political scientist and Sondhi Limthongkul’s close associate Chai-Anan Samudavanija. And after the Government House siege, the PAD has 6.6 million baht remaining in its bank accounts, plus gold worth 1,056,000 baht, according to one of the PAD’s leaders, Chamlong Srimuang.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Thai at Heart

[Publicus]

Imho the PAD would be better off arguing for stronger, better and more independent check and balance mechanisms particularly in terms of electoral oversight, and a greater transparency in all things political and of course any chnage to the constitituion that allows government to nullify these mechanisms. That is reasonable and part of the debate over freedom of elected government to act versus mechnisms to stop governmental abuse.

I agree, I find the PAD's idea of 'new politics' very scary. I understand why they think the rural majority aren't educated enough to make informed decisions, however returning to appointed officials is a step backwards.

No government has really tried to reform education or make rural ppl aware of their rights. I believe the elite are scared of the prospect of Isan ppl becoming empowered and challenging their grip on power and this is reflected in many of the things being said by PAD supporters.

If Thais want to begin to discuss democracy, they need to write a constitution that allows voters in their respective province, every province, to elect their own governor, rather than the governor being appointed by the central government in Bangkok. The rural poor thus could govern themselves without the overly great reliance on the central government in Bangkok.

Power in Thailand is too centralized in Bangkok. Thus, the constant bickering among elites to control the entire country from Bangkok.

Voters in each kampang (county) and in each umper (municipality) should have the franchise to elect their own local leaders instead of having the leaders below the provincial level also being appointed from Bangkok.

Let's get to the root causes of the messes Thailand's always in. Let the diverse demographic groups, the various regional groups et al. govern themselves.

Unless democracy happens in Thailand, throughout every level of life and decision making in Thailand, the country will continue to have elites in Bangkok struggling to take complete control of Bangkok itself and the entire country. Substantially and significantly reduce the power of the central government in Bangkok. Begin to change the nature of the game from win-lose to win-win.

It's elemental to successful democracy in Thailand, whether it's called Western style or Thai style democracy.

[Richard W]

Actaully, after the final tally, PPP pipped the Democrats by a few thousand in the party list votes. Democrats led the count until the last minute.

The Thai government has a website that posts final results, and it showed the Dems ahead by a few thou. I can't find the link now but I browsed through it a couple of days ago. Do you have a source?

There's a web site at http://www.ect.go.th/thai/report.html , but I'm not sure what state it's in. When I try to access it I get time out messages and the best I can do is to access snapshots via the Internet Archive Wayback Machine. The pop-down menus only work for me by looking at the source code of the pages. Even then, I can't find any nationwide totals. I was contemplating doing a proper analysis of the constituency votes, but it would be very tedious the way I'm getting access now.

[Plus]

If Thais want to begin to discuss democracy, they need to write a constitution that allows voters in their respective province, every province, to elect their own governor, rather than the governor being appointed by the central government in Bangkok. The rural poor thus could govern themselves without the overly great reliance on the central government in Bangkok.

Good lord, where have you been all these years - they'd already put that in the constution (short of governor elections), there are several layers or local elections, but...

The problem was that Thaksin increased his personal, off books, central fund to 20% of all government budget, and didn't increase local budgets at all (still just above 20%, I think).

Thaksin used that enourmous "cpecial budget" to fund all kind of populist schemes anywhere he fancied, there was no parlament oversight whatsoever.

That fund was a chick magnet to keep all local government bodies under complete control - you don't get any funds for your constituency if you don't brown nose the TRT hierarchy.

Last time the point was raised at the no-confidence debate a couple of months ago. Democrats charged that it was unconsitutional, but who listened?

[owenjones]

Well, it didn't happen.

Did the guy run naked wherever he said he would?

Anyone see him?

Maybe Samak will resign next week, eh?

It's a tough call whom to support, when you have an ultra-right-wing, democratically elected PM and a retro-active PAD in opposition, where the Thai People want them to be.

[waza]

Thai PM vows to fight on despite court threat

Posted 4 hours 22 minutes ago

Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej has vowed not to resign or dissolve parliament ahead of a court ruling that could force him from power in less than 24 hours.

"I declare that I will not dissolve parliament. I will not quit. I will fight on," the 73-year-old told thousands of cheering supporters in the north-eastern town of Udon Thani, stronghold of his ruling People Power Party (PPP).

"This government has done nothing wrong," he said.

Despite his defiance, it could be one of his last speeches as leader.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09...?section=justin

[phupaman]

Hi All.

Samak in a defiant mood in this weeks cabinet meeting in Udon Thani, I wonder where next weeks meeting will be held?Pattani Songkla, Phuket, Anyone know?.

Phupaman