Samak Found Guilty By Court, Must Resign

[mdechgan]

So it took a cooking show what thousands of protesters took months to do.

What are the chances PPP will just re-elect Samak?

[animatic]

has parallized

any checks and balances in the country.

There were never checks and balances under any govt. I can't believe posters are trying to have an intelligent discussion about who is right or wrong in Thai politics. The whole thing is rotten with shamelessness, conflicts of interest, corruption...

It's all about pigs at the trough, don't you realize?

Certainly is,

and that doesn't mean you can roll even 1% of that back.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't TRY to clean things a bit.

The people of Issan will benefit from this in the end

rather than JUST be abused by it as always,

but with a patina of help for them. that ends up

ruining many of their lives anyway.

How? Sure they won't be subjected to future PMs hosting cooking shows, however I can't see a pattern emerging that will lead to politicians being honest.

If enough go to jail or are banned from politics,

EVENTUALLY they will catch on it is

more profitable to play a cleaner game.

[Radius]

So it took a cooking show what thousands of protesters took months to do.

What are the chances PPP will just re-elect Samak?

100%

[Smithson]

has parallized

any checks and balances in the country.

There were never checks and balances under any govt. I can't believe posters are trying to have an intelligent discussion about who is right or wrong in Thai politics. The whole thing is rotten with shamelessness, conflicts of interest, corruption...

It's all about pigs at the trough, don't you realize?

Certainly is,

and that doesn't mean you can roll even 1% of that back.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't TRY to clean things a bit.

The people of Issan will benefit from this in the end

rather than JUST be abused by it as always,

but with a patina of help for them. that ends up

ruining many of their lives anyway.

How? Sure they won't be subjected to future PMs hosting cooking shows, however I can't see a pattern emerging that will lead to politicians being honest.

If enough go to jail or are banned from politics,

EVENTUALLY they will catch on it is

more profitable to play a cleaner game.

You can't be serious, it's more profitable to be dirty any fool can see that! What Thai politician has ever gone to jail or even been convicted of corruption?

[steveromagnino]

I think Andrew Walker over at New Mandala says it best:

Hosting a cooking show = GUILTY

Launching a coup and tearing up the constitution = NO PROBLEM

Actually, the current constitution, let us not forget, has been supported by an absolute majority of voters in the referendum. Or should we discount that and instead base our decision on the views of the PPP elected by a minority of Thais (i.e. a significantly smaller number) and the subsequent coalition formed since then now representing the majority of voters but not elected in on the basis of changing the constitution?

Certainly we all know that PPP feel this way, if not for any other reason than their own survival.

As for conflict of interest and the flipancy which people dismiss this as 'hosting a cooking show', I can safely assume many people here don't work for the media. If they did, they would be well aware of the unprecedented level of behind the scenes deals being done at NBT, primarily to acheive 3 things:

- to remove all anti government content and replace with pro government content or at least neutral content and to remove and punish any pro coup reporters

- to reallocate airtime to favoured suppliers

- to remove the advertising revenue deals from being directly controlled by the PRD and instead introduce a middle man process similar to the deals done at Channel 5 to effectively give away the airtime contract cheaply by the state (or in the case of Channel 5, the military) and then resell it at a profit via the middle man i.e. to profit from the sale of airtime personally; also to engage in a rebranding of the station at a cost of 150m baht for basically one day of work's event and a few fancy fireworks

Obviously this can be easily seen as what happened in the Shin ITV deal, when the exact same mechanic was used. Instead of a cooking show back then, this was a reward for all favoured TV producers and related parties; e.g. How Come Entertainment.

Links via this show stretch quite a bit deeper than you might imagine; and it is not unreasonable to assume that the cooking show is one aspect of a larger deal where the PM gets airtime or editorial for free that is far from the Fox ideal of a fair and balanced view. Again, no surprise; the media have operated under this scenario for many channels and media outlets already since 2001 with some respite in 2006/7.

There is thus little doubt that there are major conflicts in allowing a PM to be involved in personal profit and work in the media (aside from the obvious illegality of breaking the law). Certainly the multitude of times that the law was broken or mocked under the TRT years starting right from the asset declaration; the foreign media for the most part chose to turn a blind eye, willing to enjoy the wonderful hospitality, nice pens, phone cards and nice work permits provided by TRT and that fat ad budget from AIS - well other than a couple of FEER journalists who were chucked out of the country for reporting the truth. A few threatened with lawsuits also might disagree.

sjaak327

You can explain this all you want, fact is that in a normal democracy, such a rule doesn't exist. Do you really believe that someone like George W Bush, doesn't have any additional income one way or another. What about holding shares of companies for instance, not a problem in a western democracies. Whoever drafted this rule, hasn't been thinking. If he was, then surely a clear conflict of interest should have been shown by the courts. Of course there isn't a clear confilict of interest, hence the conviction is a joke.

Actually, as I understand, USA politicians are in some way controlled from this conflict of interest in some way, an American can probably elaborate. Obviously as in the case here, you cannot stop politicians from doing dodgy deals anywhere, whether Bectel, Halliburton or closer to home firetrucks, airport duty free monopolies, Samut Prakan water treatment, soft credit to foreign dictators for sattellite, illegal sale of 96% of a company that is by law supposed to be 49% Thai or so on. However, with checks and balances such as a free media the ability to do so is at least somewhat curtailed.

The law is quite clear; similarly the law was quite clear regarding asset declarations in 2001; but since TRT and Thaksin had no respect for that one back then and alledgedly paid off and won, I guess you could consider this to be a swings and roundabouts kind of thing; enforcing the law especially when it is so clear, is to everyone's benefit.

And incidentally, no it should not be selectively enforced. This part i really worry about; it is starting to 'appear' like a witchhunt, and with that come martyrs.

There is not a single thing worthy from either Samak or Thaksin that should ever give them this sort of status. Perhaps being a Lord of the Dunghill would be a more deserving title.

They even make Banharn look good.

[h90]

has parallized

any checks and balances in the country.

There were never checks and balances under any govt. I can't believe posters are trying to have an intelligent discussion about who is right or wrong in Thai politics. The whole thing is rotten with shamelessness, conflicts of interest, corruption...

It's all about pigs at the trough, don't you realize?

Certainly is,

and that doesn't mean you can roll even 1% of that back.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't TRY to clean things a bit.

The people of Issan will benefit from this in the end

rather than JUST be abused by it as always,

but with a patina of help for them. that ends up

ruining many of their lives anyway.

How? Sure they won't be subjected to future PMs hosting cooking shows, however I can't see a pattern emerging that will lead to politicians being honest.

If enough go to jail or are banned from politics,

EVENTUALLY they will catch on it is

more profitable to play a cleaner game.

You can't be serious, it's more profitable to be dirty any fool can see that! What Thai politician has ever gone to jail or even been convicted of corruption?

just the last few month 2 rats left the country....seams it gets better.

The 3 lawyer with the money are in jail also something new for Thailand.

It looks like it get better.

[Smithson]

The law is quite clear; similarly the law was quite clear regarding asset declarations in 2001; but since TRT and Thaksin had no respect for that one back then and alledgedly paid off and won, I guess you could consider this to be a swings and roundabouts kind of thing; enforcing the law especially when it is so clear, is to everyone's benefit.

And incidentally, no it should not be selectively enforced. This part i really worry about; it is starting to 'appear' like a witchhunt, and with that come martyrs.

This is what worries me also, I think the dismissal is fair enough, but can see a witchhunt taking place.

[ando]

impartial application of the law by the courts is the only way for a civilized democracy to progress.

thailand is hardly a true democracy , and the courts are anything but impartial.

is there any other country on earth that would remove a prime minister for cooking on tv , the surreal absurdity of this is astounding.

i'm surprised that they dont settle all court cases and government business here by penalty shoot outs.

it would fit in perfectly with the thai way of governance.

they dont want the world laughing at them do they.

Agreed.

..Impartial law....I wish the families of murdered tourists/people, farang and Thai, would have a fair trial instead of letting the suspects/murderer(s) out and/or the run.

LaoPo

I stand by my personal opinion that the only way for any form of true democracy in Thailand to prevail is for the courts to apply the law in a fair and impartial way to stamp out the rampant corruption that is eating the heart out of the country and holding it back.

If it is true that the judiciary is corrupt themselves and make rulings based on political bias (not talking about racial prejudice against Farangs here), then the country is doomed to not only decades of social injustice but inhibitions to economic growth. Sort of like trying to run a business with half the employees with their fingers in the till.

I really think the courts are the key link in making or breaking the country. I guess we shall see if the courts are impartial and do in fact deliver blind justice when the PAD leaders face their day in court.

Perhaps I am an optimist, but as I see it the only way for justice to prevail in Thailand is through the justice system. If the justice system is corrupt then all we end up with is a virtual dictatorship masquerading under the guise of a pseudo democracy with the courts as their henchmen..

[Smithson]

Perhaps I am an optimist, but as I see it the only way for justice to prevail in Thailand is through the justice system. If the justice system is corrupt then all we end up with is a virtual dictatorship masquerading under the guise of a pseudo democracy with the courts as their henchmen..

It's not up to the judicial system alone, it's everyone's responsibility not to tolerate or take part in corruption.

[younghusband]

I think Andrew Walker over at New Mandala says it best:

Hosting a cooking show = GUILTY

Launching a coup and tearing up the constitution = NO PROBLEM

Actually, the current constitution, let us not forget, has been supported by an absolute majority of voters in the referendum. Or should we discount that and instead base our decision on the views of the PPP elected by a minority of Thais (i.e. a significantly smaller number) and the subsequent coalition formed since then now representing the majority of voters but not elected in on the basis of changing the constitution?

The junta's constitution was a take it or leave it document with the clear warning that if it was not approved it would be enforced anyway and that furthermore rejection would delay elections and the return of democracy.Even with this classic totalitarian tactic the consitution only just got through against the background of a state campaign for an in favour note.Most analysts regarded the outcome as a massive slap in the face for the CNS.

You seem to be an intelligent guy and I don't really believe you are suggesting the PPP and coalition partners doesn't have a democratic mandate.Apart from one or two geniuses on this forum I don't think anyone -even Sondhi- believes that.As a democratic test general elections win hands down over the junta's constitution referendum.

[PeaceBlondie]

Excuse me if this has been covered, but how can they reelect a man who has already been barred from being PM? Is he no longer guilty, so long as he does not work a second job again?

[Smithson]

What percentage of Thais actually understand what a 'constitution' is for? Neither do they understand about separation of powers or conflict of interest. I'm not talking about just Isaan ppl, but also uni educated Thais.

In this context talk about democracy is a joke.

[Smithson]

Excuse me if this has been covered, but how can they reelect a man who has already been barred from being PM? Is he no longer guilty, so long as he does not work a second job again?

He wasn't barred, just sacked. The constitution allows cabinet to vote for him again (I think they were in a bit of a hurry when they wrote it).

[hammered]

impartial application of the law by the courts is the only way for a civilized democracy to progress.

thailand is hardly a true democracy , and the courts are anything but impartial.

is there any other country on earth that would remove a prime minister for cooking on tv , the surreal absurdity of this is astounding.

i'm surprised that they dont settle all court cases and government business here by penalty shoot outs.

it would fit in perfectly with the thai way of governance.

they dont want the world laughing at them do they.

Agreed.

..Impartial law....I wish the families of murdered tourists/people, farang and Thai, would have a fair trial instead of letting the suspects/murderer(s) out and/or the run.

LaoPo

I stand by my personal opinion that the only way for any form of true democracy in Thailand to prevail is for the courts to apply the law in a fair and impartial way to stamp out the rampant corruption that is eating the heart out of the country and holding it back.

If it is true that the judiciary is corrupt themselves and make rulings based on political bias (not talking about racial prejudice against Farangs here), then the country is doomed to not only decades of social injustice but inhibitions to economic growth. Sort of like trying to run a business with half the employees with their fingers in the till.

I really think the courts are the key link in making or breaking the country. I guess we shall see if the courts are impartial and do in fact deliver blind justice when the PAD leaders face their day in court.

Perhaps I am an optimist, but as I see it the only way for justice to prevail in Thailand is through the justice system. If the justice system is corrupt then all we end up with is a virtual dictatorship masquerading under the guise of a pseudo democracy with the courts as their henchmen..

Yesterday the courts upheld an appeal against Prasong - hardly a government friend, and rumoured to be on the PAD side. The EC although not a court cleared Chai Chidchob. It does seem that the courts are not standing for anything from anyone. That could be good for Thailand. I dont dout the PAD leadership face a tough time in court when they get there. There are rumours that Sondhi has joked he may have to spend the rest of his life as a monk after this to avoid a worse event.

One problem is that after the courts ahve taken out all politicians and parties where will the country stand? It could be a new beginning. Or new politcs? But maybe not exactly the kind currently talked about

[Siripon]

It's a matter of principle.

You can't be a PM and hold a second job, there no modalities - "it's an innocent cooking show", "I'm a part time employee only", "the money is honorarium" (more like honorerium for Samak), "the money goes to charities", "I'm not obliged to do it EVERY week" and so on.

Yes, cooking sounds innocent, but who is to decide what is innocent and what is not, and at what point - when they apply for a job? Should the courts check every job application and every contract and if everybody strictly follows the contract? Or shoud they check when someone brings up the complaint?

There's a reason the law is firm on this - it would be a bloody mess otherwise.

All five hundred lawmakers might start making money on the side tomorrow and all would claim it's all innocent, and every fuc_ker would get three appeals all the way to the Supreme Court.

When you start expressing even the slightest criticism for 1. the gang of criminals that launched an illegal coup and tore up an excellent constitution and 2.The lawlessness of the PAD rabble, it might be possible to take your post seriously.(but even then perhaps not because the offence is so trivial).

Seriously, do you not recognise even the tiniest bit of hypocrisy in what you say?If you were to say that it was your belief that Samak needs for the country's sake to be removed and if it takes a piece of nonsense to do this so be it,I could respect that.(In fact I thought this is wwhat you were saying in an earlier post)

The constitutional wasn't excellent, if it had been Thaksin wouldn't have been able to get away with emasculating all the checks and balances- do you still dispute that the coup was not supported by a large section of the middle class?

The tyranny of the majority, in fact the tyranny of Thaksin.

The PAD run a sophisticated operation, media savvy and charismatic, a lot of middle aged middle class support Sonthi's drive against corrupt politics- the occupation tactics have been reprehensible but his target is supported by many.

For rabble you only have to look at the PPP supported hooligans at Sanam Luang.

I think in the end Samak, Sonthi, Chamlong, etc, will all spend some time in jail, perhaps Samak before the end of this month.

[Smithson]

The constitutional wasn't excellent, if it had been Thaksin wouldn't have been able to get away with emasculating all the checks and balances-

I think he got away with so much because everyone ignored it, especially the media. At one time he had tremendous support of the middle class in Bangkok.

[ubonjoe]

So it took a cooking show what thousands of protesters took months to do.

What are the chances PPP will just re-elect Samak?

Answer who knows. A lot of stories about topic follows,

If I was to venture a guess I would say not Samak.

Bangkok Post

Abhisit suggests setting up "special govt"

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=130558

Surapong, coalition parties discuss new PM

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=130552

Uraiwan: Pracharaj remains in coalition

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=130555

The Nation

PPP insists its coalition intact

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/09/10/politics/politics_30083090.php

Certain PPP MPs reluctant to reinstate Samak

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30083095

Sompong leads the race

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/09/10/politics/politics_30083062.php

Name of next PM might have the initial S

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30083101

Samak stays home: aide

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30083116

[h90]

Excuse me if this has been covered, but how can they reelect a man who has already been barred from being PM? Is he no longer guilty, so long as he does not work a second job again?

he is just kicked out. With normal human beings there would be so much regard to the courts and constitution that they won't try to get elected again a few days later. I think therefore it was forgotten to write in the constitution "and he shall not be reelected in the same week".

If you write a constitution would you think for that? I wouldn't

[Smithson]

Excuse me if this has been covered, but how can they reelect a man who has already been barred from being PM? Is he no longer guilty, so long as he does not work a second job again?

he is just kicked out. With normal human beings there would be so much regard to the courts and constitution that they won't try to get elected again a few days later. I think therefore it was forgotten to write in the constitution "and he shall not be reelected in the same week".

If you write a constitution would you think for that? I wouldn't

Probably not, but I don't write constitutions. Do you? I thought the idea was not to leave loopholes?

[innovator]

Maybe the PPP and PAD could sit down and create a special menu for future PM's to follow in order to stay out of trouble?

They could list the key ingredients for success, along with any sour or stale items to discard.

Then, they could train the PM on how to prepare the meals to satisfy everyones tastes. It seems like only a 6 star chef will find acceptance here.

I think they will need a world class chef for the next PM. They should be looking at the famous cooking schools in Thailand for the new PM.

[bangkokrick]

I found this article on the yahoo Uk website which discusses the many options as to how the Thai political scene will play out.

Thailand politics

I think that its a good unbiased article.

Cheers, Rick

[younghusband]

I think Andrew Walker over at New Mandala says it best:

Hosting a cooking show = GUILTY

Launching a coup and tearing up the constitution = NO PROBLEM

what an over simplification

that idiot should have his fake degree and fake credentials stripped

I think it was meant to be simplistic so that a rather graphic point could be made.

I was going to give some background on Andrew's academic background and tenure at ANU, one of Australia's foremost South Eastern Asia scholars.Then I took a quick look at your posts...enough said.

[Uros]

Looks more like it's heading towards a political system called Absolute Anarchy.

[Artisi]

"anharn said yesterday he would not accept the premier-ship, but government sources said Banharn is also a candidate reportedly favoured by ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra as Samak's successor." Nation.

Will they never learn - or more of the same.

[Smithson]

Maybe the PPP and PAD could sit down and create a special menu for future PM's to follow in order to stay out of trouble?

Would it have PAD Thai?

They could list the key ingredients for success, along with any sour or stale items to discard.

I think one of the items is a bit sour and has just passed it's use by date.

[innovator]

Maybe the PPP and PAD could sit down and create a special menu for future PM's to follow in order to stay out of trouble?

Would it have PAD Thai?

[steveromagnino]

The junta's constitution was a take it or leave it document with the clear warning that if it was not approved it would be enforced anyway and that furthermore rejection would delay elections and the return of democracy.Even with this classic totalitarian tactic the consitution only just got through against the background of a state campaign for an in favour note.Most analysts regarded the outcome as a massive slap in the face for the CNS.

You seem to be an intelligent guy and I don't really believe you are suggesting the PPP and coalition partners doesn't have a democratic mandate.Apart from one or two geniuses on this forum I don't think anyone -even Sondhi- believes that.As a democratic test general elections win hands down over the junta's constitution referendum.

They have a democratic mandate to screw around with things like policy just like TRT, Democrats and the craziness of Banharn and Chavalit did. That I don't deny. They do not, however, have a mandate to break the law. Using the 'I have a mandate'

Bush mentality is a rather dangerous one once it starts not just being stupid (telco lack of reform, southern insurgents, drug war, etc) but ends up actually breaking the law as has occured so far with the red card for Yongyuth, Lese Majeste in one of the single most clear cut cases seen (if you have seen the video of the speech delivered in Thai in LA, or the speech more recently from the now disgraced Thammasaht lecturer I think she was) and now conflict of interest. If we were to take the legal precedent set from no action for this, it would therefore be ok to declare a state of emergency and thus permanently delay elections as occurred in the Philipines with Marcos.....surely stating a party has a mandate can extend only a certain distance.

With regards to changing the constitution, my own feeling is had PPP actually handled things responsibly, they would have easily been able to change it; however the speed at which they focused on getting their backer and his family off the charges as well as their own survival undid any moral high ground they might have previously claimed.

While the precedent might have been set with the glee in which TRT sought to destroy the meaning/intent of the 1997 Constitution (and personally I still feel that there wasn't much wrong with the intent of the document, certainly some major issues and weaknesses got exploited within it but much of that was due to complicity/payoffs/major threats from the so called checks and balances), it is fairly undesireable to have the current situation where a government break the rules of the constitution, get elected, claim a mandate to change it, and then fiddle things; this could set up a cycle of new mandates and tilted constitutions for the foreseeable future.

And incidentally, the reason the new constitution was blocked had little to do with fear or otherwise; it was pro TRT rejecting and anti TRT supporting; you can see the lines fall quite clearly by block. I am not sure who your most analysts comment refers to, but a majority is still a majority. the true majority are the people who had no idea what a constitution is, which is probably most of the voters on both sides!

If the amount of outside funding drops from one particular family PLUS the degree of judicial independence and oversight continues in the electoral process, you will, I predict, see a very different election result. As stated several times, the exact same majority of people will continue to get in as they always have (and in that respect, everytime I read that TRT changed the way the poor vote, I roll my eyes with dispair) BUT the factions they vote for will align themselves differently, once the massive payoff to join a TRT/PPP coalition is not appearing from thin air/UK/Hong Kong.

From these ashes, just possibly a decent PM may emerge, because goodness knows what we will ever do with people like Samak and Banharn running the show. We've tried both and it is patently obvious neither knows a thing about governing a country.

As for missing 111 politicians, most of them were totally hopeless, the rest we have their family in power now and they are doing a c&*p job too.

[ubonjoe]

Khun Samak is good and straight forward but ... : Yongyuth

A meeting of some 100 MPs of People Power Party hinted on Wednesday that it may not be suitable to nominate Samak Sundaravej as prime minister again.

The meeting was chaired by former PPP deputy leader and ex-House Speaker Yongyuth Tirapairat. The MPs who attended the meeting represented about half of the party which has 223 MPs.

Yongyuth told reporters after the meeting that they discussed the country's situation particularly who should be the prime minister of the country after the Constitution Court disqualified Samak Sundaravej from the post on Tuesday.

"We, as members of the party, think that if we are in power traps, we will not be able to clearly see the real problems. The country will plunge into deeper problems if we continue to be rivals," Yongyuth said.

The meeting assigned Yongyuth to convey this message to Samak.

"We believe that Khun Samak is good and straight forward. However we could not take it as personal matter as the country's problems have to be settled urgently."

He insisted that next prime minister has to be from PPP.

Yongyuth added that to nominate new premier on Friday is too soon. The parliament session for the matter should be delayed to next week.

He said PPP will meet on Thursday to discuss who the party will nominate to be prime minister

[cmsally]

Saw someone speaking on ASTV today (don't know his name but he was wearing a neck brace), according to him PAD will be staying at Govt House for the next 2 years.

I noticed with the Samak rhetoric now useless, the basis of the speech was very much on New Politics.

[Smithson]

If the amount of outside funding drops from one particular family PLUS the degree of judicial independence and oversight continues in the electoral process, you will, I predict, see a very different election result. As stated several times, the exact same majority of people will continue to get in as they always have (and in that respect, everytime I read that TRT changed the way the poor vote, I roll my eyes with dispair) BUT the factions they vote for will align themselves differently, once the massive payoff to join a TRT/PPP coalition is not appearing from thin air/UK/Hong Kong.

From these ashes, just possibly a decent PM may emerge, because goodness knows what we will ever do with people like Samak and Banharn running the show. We've tried both and it is patently obvious neither knows a thing about governing a country.

As for missing 111 politicians, most of them were totally hopeless, the rest we have their family in power now and they are doing a c&*p job too.

A good observation, although I can't see much chance of improvement. Maybe the family stops paying, but someone else will so the money politics and associated problems continue.