Apt Mgr Now Thinks He Is An Immigration Official

[ballzafire]

Situation:

Earlier this week, my apt manager comes to my door along with one of the receptionists demanding that I hand over my passport so he could "inspect" it. I said no. He persisted, raising his voice a little, saying to the effect that he "just wanted to see if everyting all right, then no poblem, I give back and you can stay."

I politely said no again and that if they had an urgent question about my status (which is current, BTW) that they should call immigration and have them come and check. I told them I would wait there.

Now, this guy is really starting to get agitated and the receptionist started giving me a real mistrustful look. Several more requests to just hand over my passport to these people and then, exasperated, they both leave. Nothing else happens that day.

Two days later, the same scenario plays out, only this time he is agitated from the gitgo, and receptionist is giving me a real dirty look this time. I asked why he did not call immigration. He said he tried but "phone always busy" I then suggested that he simply call the police (that I know how to say in Thai), and again I would wait right there. Some hemming and hawing, more of the same demands, and then they both leave again.

A few more days transpire and now it's time to pay my rent. In the interest of trying to defuse the situation and prevent the all-important "loss of face", I decided to make a copy of my current visa stamp and show that and my passport while I paid my rent -- but still NOT surrender my passport. Instead, I just held open the corresponding page so they could verify the copy.

Receptionist calls middle manager. Middle manager inspects the copy, then calls this prick of a main manager. All three play immigration official, and then, "determine" I'm legit.

Then, instead of an apology, the main manager turns to me before he leaves and says,

"As soon as you get new visa and stamp, you make copy and give to me right away, then you can stay, no poblem."

<deleted>?

For the record, I've been in good standing with them all the time that I've been there. No problems that I can think of.

Some questions (for those that know): what is the legality of the situation here? Is this a "new rule" or something? Can they demand a copy of every current visa and stamp or should I just ignore their requests (and maybe move on)?

Edited November 2, 2008 by ballzafire

[endure]

Hotels and apartments are legally required to report the presence of aliens to Immigration. In order to do that they need to see your passport. Why didn't you just let them have a look at it?

[Crossy]

Whilst I don't believe the apartment manager has any RIGHT to see your passport, I can't for the life of me understand why you didn't let him see it when requested.

Don't forget he is supposed to report your presence to the authorities, for which he needs your passport details.

[Sophon]

Situation:

Earlier this week, my apt manager comes to my door along with one of the receptionists demanding that I hand over my passport so he could "inspect" it. I said no. He persisted, raising his voice a little, saying to the effect that he "just wanted to see if everyting all right, then no poblem, I give back and you can stay."

I politely said no again and that if they had an urgent question about my status (which is current, BTW) that they should call immigration and have them come and check. I told them I would wait there.

Now, this guy is really starting to get agitated and the receptionist started giving me a real mistrustful look. Several more requests to just hand over my passport to these people and then, exasperated, they both leave. Nothing else happens that day.

Two days later, the same scenario plays out, only this time he is agitated from the gitgo, and receptionist is giving me a real dirty look this time. I asked why he did not call immigration. He said he tried but "phone always busy" I then suggested that he simply call the police (that I know how to say in Thai), and again I would wait right there. Some hemming and hawing, more of the same demands, and then they both leave again.

A few more days transpire and now it's time to pay my rent. In the interest of trying to defuse the situation and prevent the all-important "loss of face", I decided to make a copy of my current visa stamp and show that and my passport while I paid my rent -- but still NOT surrender my passport. Instead, I just held open the corresponding page so they could verify the copy.

Receptionist calls middle manager. Middle manager inspects the copy, then calls this prick of a main manager. All three play immigration official, and then, "determine" I'm legit.

Then, instead of an apology, the main manager turns to me before he leaves and says,

"As soon as you get new visa and stamp, you make copy and give to me right away, then you can stay, no poblem."

<deleted>?

For the record, I've been in good standing with them all the time that I've been there. No problems that I can think of.

Some questions (for those that know): what is the legality of the situation here? Is this a "new rule" or something? Can they demand a copy of every current visa and stamp or should I just ignore their requests (and maybe move on)?

The owner of the apartment (or in this case the person managing it) is responsible for reporting to the immigration authorities if a foreigner is living there. He has to do this within 24/48 hours (or something like that, I don't know the exact requirement) each time the foreigner arrives back. I guess that's why the apartment manager wanted to see your passport, so that he knew what date to write on the report.

This is not a new rule, but it generally hasn't been enforced for a while. There have been reports that some immigration offices (notably Chiang Mai) is starting to enforce the rule again.

So the apartment manager wasn't totally out of line asking to see your passport, but it could probably have been handled more amicably.

Sophon

[dotcom]

It is one thing to "see" it.

I don't think he needs to get his grubby mitts on it. You did the correct thing. Some of these mo fo have way too much time on their hands.

[ballzafire]

Hotels and apartments are legally required to report the presence of aliens to Immigration. In order to do that they need to see your passport. Why didn't you just let them have a look at it?

Because I've been there over a year and they already had my passport number from day one.

The issue here appears to be current immigration status, not mere presence on their property...

[elektrified]

What's the problem? Just let him see your passport. I think he has the right.

[endure]

Perhaps, as you've been there more than a year, they are checking as to whether you have a current visa. When I asked why didn't you let them look it was a simple question. Why didn't you just let them have a look at it?

[dotcom]

He can request a photostat copy.

U.S. passports are the property of the Department of State & should only be surrendered to officials who need to see it in the course of their duties.

What if the guy is a psycho & wants to rip it to pieces?

[Jingthing]

I think this is a misunderstanding. I think the manager was within his rights. I wouldn't give my passport to anyone like that to take out of my sight, but I would let them inspect and/or photocopy in my presence. He has obligations to immigration in housing us aliens. Their country, their rules.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Jingthing

[ballzafire]

Sophon,

That sounds reasonable but I think I recall that I did all that when I first moved into this place. In other words, they already had all my "details" to report, and could have simply re-reported them.

This sudden demand to "inspect" my passport for validity was different and struck me as odd, so I played it safe and declined to hand it over (and apparently with all due right to do so, too, since they neither called immigration nor the local police to enforce their demand...)

[ballzafire]

It is one thing to "see" it. I don't think he needs to get his grubby mitts on it. You did the correct thing. Some of these mo fo have way too much time on their hands.

My sentiments, exactly...

[ballzafire]

He can request a photostat copy. U.S. passports are the property of the Department of State & should only be surrendered to officials who need to see it in the course of their duties. What if the guy is a psycho & wants to rip it to pieces?

Well, in this case, there was one thing he was not, and that is a qualified immigration official. He wanted to know if I was legal.

Or maybe it was an opportunity to extort a little dosh out of me to get it back...

[sniffdog]

I don't see why you make such a fuss out of it. Like what others have said, apartments and hotels have a responsibility to make sure their tenants are legal.

In my apartment police check the books regularly. However, surprising, they have never raided the place. Although I suspect many tenants are illegal.

My passport (Dutch) states that I cannot give a third party possession of my passport unless a law or regulation requires so.

[WISteve]

Sophon,

That sounds reasonable but I think I recall that I did all that when I first moved into this place. In other words, they already had all my "details" to report, and could have simply re-reported them.

This sudden demand to "inspect" my passport for validity was different and struck me as odd, so I played it safe and declined to hand it over (and apparently with all due right to do so, too, since they neither called immigration nor the local police to enforce their demand...)

Well they may have the passport number and name if they could find it from over a year ago, but I don't know if they are required to determine if you have a legitimate visa or not? If they are required to do that, they would not know without inspecting your passport if you renewed your visa or not. Your visa may have expired and they would never know. It makes sense since he asked you to inform him of any status changes?

I think I would have asked the lady at the desk if she had a copy machine and have her copy it for the manager. Hand the ill-tempered one the copy with a smile and get on with your life.

~WISteve

[ballzafire]

I don't see why you make such a fuss out of it. Like what others have said, apartments and hotels have a responsibility to make sure their tenants are legal. In my apartment police check the books regularly. However, surprising, they have never raided the place. Although I suspect many tenants are illegal. My passport (Dutch) states that I cannot give a third party possession of my passport unless a law or regulation requires so.

"apartments and hotels have a responsibility to make sure their tenants are legal..."

Really? That's news to me. Where do you get that?

I think rather, if they suspect a problem they should notify the authorities to determine if "your papers are in order", as they say, not take matters into their own hands.

As you stated, at your apt. the police check the books. Last I checked, apt. managers do not have police powers. Hence, the need for immigration police.

[ballzafire]

WISteve,

If you read my initial post, you'll see that I did exactly that: made a copy of the page with the current stamp and handed it to them. That's all that was necessary.

But do they have the right to act as immigration officials in this case? I still say no.

What they did succeed in doing, however, is create a pending vacancy...

[Martian]

Maybe they want a vacancy for one reason or another?????????

Martian

[Felt 35]

Where is the § in the Thai law / Immigration Law stating that apartment managers have the duty and right to inspect anyone’s passport?

They (the managers) have the right to get your details, I.e. usually photocopy of the first page with picture etc,

What kind of messy Police state should this end up as if any hotel, apartment, brothel managers should have the authority to check your recent Visa(s), passport stamps!

Something must at least the Immigration be capable to be in charge of by themselves!

[ubonjoe]

Apartments, hotels and etc owners/managers have a legal requirement to check your passport/TM6 record the details from them and/or make copies. Making copies yourself should be good enough. The following from immigration website.

Notification of residence of foreigners for businesses

According to section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national." If there is no immigration office in the province or locality of the respective house or hotel, the notification is made to the local police station. In Bangkok the notification is made to the Immigration Bureau. The notification of residence of foreign nationals is made by the manager of licensed hotels according to the hotel act, owners of guesthouses, mansions, apartments and rented houses using the form TM. 30.

The notification of residence of foreign nationals within 24 hours can be made in a number of ways to make the notification as convenient as possible:

In person at the respective office, or

Through an authorised person at the respective office, or

By registered mail, or

Via internet.

Link to immigration act: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/do...gration_Act.pdf

Edited November 3, 2008 by ubonjoe

[Felt 35]

Apartments, hotels and etc owners/managers have a legal requirement to check your passport/TM6 record the details from them and/or make copies. Making copies yourself should be good enough. The following from immigration website.

Notification of residence of foreigners for businesses

According to section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national." If there is no immigration office in the province or locality of the respective house or hotel, the notification is made to the local police station. In Bangkok the notification is made to the Immigration Bureau. The notification of residence of foreign nationals is made by the manager of licensed hotels according to the hotel act, owners of guesthouses, mansions, apartments and rented houses using the form TM. 30.

The notification of residence of foreign nationals within 24 hours can be made in a number of ways to make the notification as convenient as possible:

In person at the respective office, or

Through an authorised person at the respective office, or

By registered mail, or

Via internet.

Link to immigration act: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/do...gration_Act.pdf

This is all good and not new.

Section 38 of the 1979 immigration act says notify and legal requirement, not authority as Immigration or Police.

It is a far jump from legal requirement to report foreign nationals on their premises to have Police authority to on a regularly basis check what kind of Visa and stamps a foreign national have in their passport. That would be person persecution as long as the foreign national already have passed through a recognised immigration checkpoint and have reported and live on the address stated on arrival card (T.M. 6.)

[uncletom]

About 2 years ago, after already living in the same place for 6 years, the owners asked for some copies of the particulars in my passport. Well, these owners are very nice and are close friends of the family, but still, I did not like it because they already had had my information from before, and had filed it accordingly before with the proper imigration officials.

Turns out, that they had received notification that it was their sole duty and responsibility to get a current updated list of all the foreigners residing on their premises. In this letter it stated that failure to do so would subject them to a fine and possible punishment. Not a big deal, and better this thatn actually having the imigration showing up at your door saying howdy doody, show me your documents. Which is worse? As for giving my passport for a manger i don't know to walk away with, not likely. but also, when renting a motor bike in some palces, they either require your passport to hold or they require copies of your documents, and this is not law, but we willingly give them something in order to have transport.

Uncletom

[junkofdavid2]

While I do agree that this obsession with passports is extremely annoying, I think the apt manager's request isn't too "far out" considering that even some private OFFICE BUILDINGS security ask foreigners to surrender passport to gain entry...

...they say either "passport or Govt. I.D." and no other type of I.D. is valid. Not all countries issue a Govt. I.D. like Thailand does so that means in that case you'd have to surrender your.... PASSPORT!

[sbk]

Reports to Immigration require current visa type, current TM card number, arrival date and visa expiration date. If you have left the country within that past year then all of your current information would be different than the information the manager had. There is a fine for not reporting, btw.

[cali4995]

I'll go ahead and post a contrarian perspective. I've never had a problem giving landlords

a copy of my passport data page. I'm not really comfortable giving exact and constantly

updated visa information and I'll tell you why. Suppose for example my tourist visa runs-

out on NOV 15 and I just happen to be quite ill for 2-3 days that week and unable to travel?

Do you really want them to be in that position over you? Some of them ARE too nosy.There.

[ballzafire]

Where is the § in the Thai law / Immigration Law stating that apartment managers have the duty and right to inspect anyone's passport? They (the managers) have the right to get your details, I.e. usually photocopy of the first page with picture etc, What kind of messy Police state should this end up as if any hotel, apartment, brothel managers should have the authority to check your recent Visa(s), passport stamps! Something must at least the Immigration be capable to be in charge of by themselves!

Agreed.

The issue is not about simple "notification" that an alien is residing on the premises, as required by Section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, and fully understandable.

Rather, it is about whether every hotel, apt., guesthouse, etc. becomes secondary immigration checkpoints, flipping thru the pages of foreigners' passports, checking to see if "your papers are in order", as if they were some kind of Thai Gestapo.

Or is it really some new, "unofficial" procedure encouraged by the authorities to "get tough on tourists"? After all, they heard there's a worldwide War on Tourism at the moment!

Wouldn't surprise me at all...

Edited November 3, 2008 by ballzafire

[library]

A few years back I was in the process of renting a condo and while they were flipping through the visa pages they noticed I was on a tourist visa and refused to rent to me saying they had trouble with the police earlier with foreigners overstaying their tourist visas. This was out in Pinklao. My current condo checked the visa to make sure I wasn't here illegally but they haven't asked for updates.

[wpcoe]

Apartments, hotels and etc owners/managers have a legal requirement to check your passport/TM6 record the details from them and/or make copies. Making copies yourself should be good enough. The following from immigration website.

Notification of residence of foreigners for businesses

According to section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national." If there is no immigration office in the province or locality of the respective house or hotel, the notification is made to the local police station. In Bangkok the notification is made to the Immigration Bureau. The notification of residence of foreign nationals is made by the manager of licensed hotels according to the hotel act, owners of guesthouses, mansions, apartments and rented houses using the form TM. 30.

The notification of residence of foreign nationals within 24 hours can be made in a number of ways to make the notification as convenient as possible:

In person at the respective office, or

Through an authorised person at the respective office, or

By registered mail, or

Via internet.

Link to immigration act: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/do...gration_Act.pdf

I'm curious about the phrase about accommodating foreign nationals "on a temporary basis." What is temporary? If I'm renting an apartment with a one-year permission to stay, is that temporary? It could be interpreted that Section 38 applies only to transient visitors, no?

[jdinasia]

Apartments, hotels and etc owners/managers have a legal requirement to check your passport/TM6 record the details from them and/or make copies. Making copies yourself should be good enough. The following from immigration website.

Notification of residence of foreigners for businesses

According to section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national." If there is no immigration office in the province or locality of the respective house or hotel, the notification is made to the local police station. In Bangkok the notification is made to the Immigration Bureau. The notification of residence of foreign nationals is made by the manager of licensed hotels according to the hotel act, owners of guesthouses, mansions, apartments and rented houses using the form TM. 30.

The notification of residence of foreign nationals within 24 hours can be made in a number of ways to make the notification as convenient as possible:

In person at the respective office, or

Through an authorised person at the respective office, or

By registered mail, or

Via internet.

Link to immigration act: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/do...gration_Act.pdf

I'm curious about the phrase about accommodating foreign nationals "on a temporary basis." What is temporary? If I'm renting an apartment with a one-year permission to stay, is that temporary? It could be interpreted that Section 38 applies only to transient visitors, no?

Check out the thread in the CNX section regarding immigration enforcing 'old rules' ...

[ubonjoe]

You are temporary until you apply for and get permanent residence (PR). Staying on a 1 year extension is temporary.