Should A Woman Be Allowed to hold the office of President of the USA?

[PeaceBlondie]

This is one devil of a city for giving directions to find a place. Like San Antonio, most main streets do not traverse more than several km before changing name or direction. Furthermore, unlike San Antonio the street signs are neither in English nor Spanish. Almost none of us ever had a trade that required us to give directions carefully, such as...a rally master (I was one, as a teenager).

So, whilst there is no one best way to give instructions on how to get somewhere, we can give each other some clues. Being a klutz with strange orientation and more nerve than brains, I will try to give some clues.

One handy way to give directions is to reference a landmark larger than a plate of apple pie. For example, Doi Suthep and Doi Sahket are hard to miss. So is the moat, which can be referenced by cardinal directions, even though the Thais seem not to use them. The moat roads are inner and outer, like navels. The moat is square. Thailand is full of klongs (canals), but cities like Chiang Mai and Lamphun only have one moat. Chiang Mai only has one Ping River, which still flows south.

There is one real superhighway, which on the north side of town is mistaken as a ring road, curving from Neimanhymen, Neemunheiaiamun, or whatever, at the Rincome Intersection with Huay Kaew. Then it speeds beneath overpasses that took 700 years to build, going toward and then over the Ping River. Then it curves south to Lamphun, Krungthep, and Singapore.

Mahidol Road is not a ring road, IMHO, and is pronounced Maheedon, of course. It heads straight south from the SW corner of the moat, arrives at Airport Central Plaza, and continues east to the superhighway as a divided highway. The first ring road starts at Canal Road (Klongchonprathan) south of the airport, continues past the ruins of Global House, crosses the river and the superhighway, curves north and continues north and curves again and heads west. The first ring road now runs maybe 25 km without a stop light or stop sign.

The second ring road actually makes a full circle of the city as highway 121, including the entire canal or klong road. It is not fully developed as of late 2008, varying from four lanes divided to two narrow lanes.

When you give directions, orient yourself. Say whether you have your back to the city, or are facing the river or a mountain, etc. In using a well known street like Moon Muang, it is still polite to say it is the inner moat road that passes by Tha Pae Gate, northbound.

Why do I still blank out when I hear directions to some place, in this big city where I have lived for many years? Because like most folks, I am directionally challenged. Because most folks could not direct their mother to the hong nam if Mum has the runs. Because even when the road signs are in Thailish, they are spelled differently from one sign to the next. Because you cannot read signs in the dark.

Don't worry. If you get lost, just go right past the wat, down the second or third soi after the dirty little klong, and turn left where the dog died.

[chiangmaibruce]

I don't know what it is about this place, but of all the places I have lived this is the one where I have the most difficulty navigating around - is anyone else in the same 'boat'? Unlike PB above I normally have an excellent sense of where is north/south and can navigate on this basis alone. But here, even after a few years driving around, this sense has all but abandoned me.

Perhaps it was because when I arrived here I was forever u-turning (because of building underpasses and roadworks), perhaps it's because of northern hemisphere instead of south, lack of English street names, or perhaps it's because I have to always focus so hard on what the crazy in the next lane is about to do (that I can't properly 'orient' myself???

As a CNX local my wife seems to know every obscure rat-run about the place, and my ongoing navigational failures are driving both of us crazy. Is GPS the solution? use a helicopter instead? anyone? .... helppppp

[bunta71]

Cracks me up about your reference to the streets of San Antonio. I spent three months there being trained by crazy sentry dogs.Actually loved the place, especially compared to the rest of the void called Texas.Speaking of a void....there is a village in Texas that is missing it's idiot and will soon get the genius back!

Now they used to say the streets in San Antonio were laid out by a blind,drunken, Mexican riding backwards on a burro. What does this have to do with Chiang Mai you ask? Same guy laid out the streets here!

[bunta71]

I don't know what it is about this place, but of all the places I have lived this is the one where I have the most difficulty navigating around - is anyone else in the same 'boat'? Unlike PB above I normally have an excellent sense of where is north/south and can navigate on this basis alone. But here, even after a few years driving around, this sense has all but abandoned me.

Perhaps it was because when I arrived here I was forever u-turning (because of building underpasses and roadworks), perhaps it's because of northern hemisphere instead of south, lack of English street names, or perhaps it's because I have to always focus so hard on what the crazy in the next lane is about to do (that I can't properly 'orient' myself???

As a CNX local my wife seems to know every obscure rat-run about the place, and my ongoing navigational failures are driving both of us crazy. Is GPS the solution? use a helicopter instead? anyone? .... helppppp

Same with me. All my life I could find my way in the foggiest of conditions. Any way you read into that would be accurate.Since the first moment in CNX I have been directionally challenged. No actually full blown retarded. Only place in the world that affects me like this. I am getting to know my way around the house though and that's a good sign

[Tywais]

Glad to see it's not just me. Usually I have no problems back home, but here I've managed on more then one occasion to get lost. This includes within Chiangmai University where I've worked for 15 years. No grid pattern, just dog legs and roundabouts that causes disorientation at CMU.

[harrry]

Glad to see it's not just me. Usually I have no problems back home, but here I've managed on more then one occasion to get lost. This includes within Chiangmai University where I've worked for 15 years. No grid pattern, just dog legs and roundabouts that causes disorientation at CMU.

It's not the dog's legs that worry me it is their mouths when they chase my wheelchair....hope there aren't too many there.

Edited November 23, 2008 by harrry

[mrsouza]

As a newcomer, I bought a GPS. That was the best investment I have done in a long time. You can get the Garmin 200 for 9,900 baht at Pantip Plaza.

Highly recommended, guides me correctly to my destinations in 99% of the cases, even though the maps are a year old or so.

[Greenside]

I agree. It's extraordinary how bad people are about directions and it's not confined to any particular group, nationality or sex. Recently we had to find a shop selling special water pump spares and my girlfriend called for directions. "By Big C and Makro on the Hang Dong Road, by the XXX restaurant." came the answer so off we went. Clear and concise - how difficult could that be, right? Twenty frustrating minutes and three calls after arriving at Makro we find that it's about a kilometer up the road on the other side to Makro opposite a restaurant with no name posted outside in any language. It was also exactly underneath the giant SONY sign that you can see for miles in either direction. Unbelievable. I was so pi**ed off that I forced my g/f to ask the shop lady why she hadn't mentioned the huge sign looming over the store but of course a shy smile and a shrug was the only result.

The best way to get around the city and surroundings is to get a copy of the Big Map! Not only does it have all the soi names (even in the Old City) but it shows hundreds of shops and other useful landmarks along with a useful and simple grid reference so you can impart the location of that unmissable 16 baht spaghetti warehouse buffet thing to others smart enough to have bought one. I'm a fan.

I'm lucky enough to have a sense of direction even a homing pigeon would kill for but while on the subject of directions, why is it that Americans in particular assume that we all know which way north is? "Come out of the west exit at Airport Plaza and go east on Mahidol Road until you see the Mazda Dealer on the south side of the street." Excuse me? What's wrong with right and left? It doesn't seem to occur that maybe I can't see the sun inside the building, don't have a watch or haven't looked at a map of the city to see where Doi Suthep lies in relation to everything.

I often used to come to big highway intersections in the States and they'd just be signed something like I305 East which assumes you know where you are and therefore which way your destination lies. Go on, give me a hint - I305 East (Denver) or I305 West (The Pacific) at least tells you roughly where you are. There, I've said it. It's been irritating me for years.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Greenside

[Blinky Bill]

Without wanting to sound like a complete wangker, I do know the streets of Chiang Mai very well and have never been lost or failed to find the place I'm looking for.

Mind you, when I came to Chiang Mai many years ago the town was much small than it is today and of course, less traffic.

Having the town grow around you certainly makes it easier to know your way around. Also having an internal compass (that works) helps and you always have a great reference in the shape of Doi Suthep. It is visible from almost any point in town and a great means of getting your bearings.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Blinky Bill

[elektrified]

I am usually very good at finding places and getting to know my way around a city. I lived in Prague for 3 1/2 years and there was not a cobblestone alley that I didn't know. I could get somewhere four different ways coming from different directions without ever having to look at a map. If you have ever spent any time in Prague, you always see tourists looking at their maps trying to find that tiny little cobblestone street. Street names change often even when you are on the same street. There are also numerous bridges crossing the river which flows through the city like a horse shoe. I never had a problem knowing which side of the river I was on, or needed to get to.

Here, I am always getting my bearings mixed up. I have difficulty figuring out which side of the Mae Ping I am on or need to get to. I get confused at intersections. I am always referring to my map for directions and even then I get lost sometimes.

I am glad to see that I am not alone!

[PeaceBlondie]

I thought this thread might be long overdue. Other cities need it, too.

Texas used to have very bad instructional signs. First time I ever rode from San Antonio to Austin, my Cushman motor scooter's headlight at 50 miles per hour barely read the sign approaching Austin. Major interstate highway, and only one yellow road sign, pointing to AUSTIN in two directions. Chiang Mai is worse, 47 years later.

The Big Map is indispensable. It nearly covers the moobahns in Doi Sakhet, and Hang Dong. On sale at the main office of Gecko Books. Wherefore is that, you ask? Well, approaching Tha Pae Gate on Tha Pae Road, it is the last soi before the gate, to the left. Coming down the outer moat road (Chiayapoom) toward Tha Pae Gate, turn to the left in front of the traffic circle/roundabout at the gate, and a sharp left immediate turn.

Another problem: almost everybody pronounces the Thai words wrong, except Joe Cummings, and maybe Blinky Bill.

[Drew Aitch]

It never ceases to amaze me how the North Americans living outside of the States give directions using things like ‘Head North 2 blocks’, or, ‘It’s on the South East corner of the city. They assume that everyone who asks for directions has either been here a while or that a compass is something as common on their person as a wristwatch!

Thailand, like many older countries around the world, has not built its towns and cities into a neat grid of blocks which create navigational columns and rows. The main roads merge into sois, merge into sub sois, merge into dead end alleys. There are lots of nooks and crannies here which twist and bend and disappear, then reappear, along with many short cuts and long cuts for those who care to dig them out.

If you really want to get to know the ole place, then spend some time walking around on a regular basis, or better still, get on y’ bicycle, as it is then, and only then, that you will become familiar with the city and its layout.

Telling a stranger, or even a non-American who’s been here for a while, to walk East for ‘about’ 3 blocks, or that somewhere is adjacent to the East facing wall, will do little or nothing to help them on their merry way. It might work for New York, but not in the Ancient world!

Landmarks Rule! ‘It’s opposite the Big Blue School’. ‘It’s right in front of the Pink Painted Apartment Building’, or ‘Walk past the Honda Dealer for about 100M’, and so on, is not only a logical way to direct, but such directions are memorable, making landmarks the best method to plot a route for pedestrians, cyclists, or motorists alike.

Get rid of your blocks (which don’t exist), and your compass points (which nobody relates to), and you will surely find that your knowledge of the old city will grow in no time at all.

Aitch

[Bill97]

The Big Map is indispensable. It nearly covers the moobahns in Doi Sakhet, and Hang Dong. On sale at the main office of Gecko Books. Wherefore is that, you ask? Well, approaching Tha Pae Gate on Tha Pae Road, it is the last soi before the gate, to the left.

Did Geko main office move recently? If not, shouldn't it be the last soi to the right? For Greenside, turn at the Boots Pharmacy going around the side of it to the North which is to the right as you come up Thapae Rd going the correct way with the traffic which is West toward the mountains, Doi Suthep.

Please do let me know if I got it wrong because I really want to get this famous Big Map which seems as though it should be a required reference for everyone except BB.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Bill97

[cm das]

Is it really only Americans (and Blinky Bill) who know that north is 'up' on a map, and that Chiang Mai's number one landmark, Doi Suthep, is west of the city?

[Drew Aitch]

Is it really only Americans (and Blinky Bill) who know that north is 'up' on a map, and that Chiang Mai's number one landmark, Doi Suthep, is west of the city?

Lost Pedestian: Excuse me! Can you tell me how to get to Joe’s Fish & Chip shop from here? I wouldn’t ask, but I haven’t got a local map on me

Friendly American: Sure. Just head south for 2 and a half blocks then veer in and South Easterly direction and you can’t miss it!

Ha ha lol C’mon fellas, get a grip of yourselves and learn how to direct outside of the US of A It really is the only real way to direct and find destinations. This thread probably wouldn’t even exist if you removed the concept of blocks and compass points from your navigational train of thought! And most folks (other than tourists) don’t generally walk around with maps in their back pockets, yet many long term residents here tend to find themselves getting lost years after settling in to the city.

Aitch

[harrry]

Direction s always depend on who you ask. I remember asking direcctions off a loverly girl in Perth. She told me to go down the street to the Wedding dress shop, turn right then go past the hairdresser and left at the handbag shop. Now if she could have been sensible and said go down to the electonics shop then turn and go towards the camera shop I might have got there.

[cm das]

I think the way you give directions depends an awful lot on the context. If someone stops me on the street, I'll point and use visible landmarks over cardinal directions any day (never used blocks much anyway). But on an internet forum it's different. Also north, south etc. are obviously no good for a warren of winding sois, but is it so bad to use them when referring to a major road that travels only in a straight line?

Anyway, here's a hint for those of you who run into compass-minded Americans on the street in Chiang Mai: The main gates of Buddhist temples and the doors to the viharn face to the east.

[iainiain101]

This must be a US type problem. The streets of Chiang Mai are no different to the streets of central London, with the main difference being that in Chiang Mai is a lot smaller and you have a bloody great squre moat and river to get bearings off. This is an easy city to find your way around, the only problem is if you are going to take notice of the one way streets!

I do agree that most people here seem to be crap at giving directions though.

It was also last week that I was complaining to the missus that the majority of Tuk Tuk drivers were totally useless at finding there way around town. They seem to have no concept of the quickest or shortest routes, and allways try to find their ways from main roads. They could do with introducing 'The Knowledge' style exam here.

Iain

[rijb]

This must be a US type problem. The streets of Chiang Mai are no different to the streets of central London, with the main difference being that in Chiang Mai is a lot smaller and you have a bloody great squre moat and river to get bearings off. This is an easy city to find your way around, the only problem is if you are going to take notice of the one way streets!

I do agree that most people here seem to be crap at giving directions though.

It was also last week that I was complaining to the missus that the majority of Tuk Tuk drivers were totally useless at finding there way around town. They seem to have no concept of the quickest or shortest routes, and allways try to find their ways from main roads. They could do with introducing 'The Knowledge' style exam here.

Iain

Give it a break! How is giving bad directions and getting lost a US problem? A number of studies suggest that women tend to refer more often than men to landmarks, whereas men refer more often than women to the cardinal directions. Maybe you and Drew A. are just more in touch with your feminine side than a typical US male…

[whiterussian]

Don't worry. If you get lost, just go right past the wat, down the second or third soi after the dirty little klong, and turn left where the dog died.

Haha classic post!, glad im not the only one with directional dyslexia.

Tip for newbies: keep driving round the moat till you recognise something!

problem for me is all the bloody U-Turns. Dont have em in the UK. I think my internal compass has become worn out..

200 meters SOUTH, ▼ then retrace your route 100 meters NORTH, ▲

Then due EAST to the 7-11, ► then retrace your route U turn DUE WEST ◄

until you pass where you just u-turned.

[db1tau]

I almost never got lost in CNX and I think it is really easy to navigate here, unlike BKK where I always get lost if I'm not near the river or the skytrain. I even lose my way regularly in phitsanoloke and other smaller cities.

But the Doi Suthep in the west and the square of the inner city and also the three ring roads (if you count Superhighway and Mahidol Road as they make about 3/4 of a ring) are making it really easy to find home.

I'm not from the US, but I always use compass directions and know where north is, when I go around in the city. Most Thais however don't even know that chang phuak gate is at the north- and chiang mai gate at the southside of the moat.

Look at the maps at the bus stops... the airport is left, so North is to the right. Most Maps for restaurants or moo baans arent better.

The free city maps in most magazines are ok though.

[john b good]

I think the way you give directions depends an awful lot on the context. If someone stops me on the street, I'll point and use visible landmarks over cardinal directions any day (never used blocks much anyway). But on an internet forum it's different. Also north, south etc. are obviously no good for a warren of winding sois, but is it so bad to use them when referring to a major road that travels only in a straight line?

Anyway, here's a hint for those of you who run into compass-minded Americans on the street in Chiang Mai: The main gates of Buddhist temples and the doors to the viharn face to the east.

That is not always correct (the main gates of Buddhist temples facing east)

The main gates of Wat Chai Mong Khon for example face west.

The main gates of Wat Haripunchai (Lamphun) face more to the south and the north.

So you cannot use the gates of a temple as an accurate reference

[PeaceBlondie]

The Big Map is indispensable. It nearly covers the moobahns in Doi Sakhet, and Hang Dong. On sale at the main office of Gecko Books. Wherefore is that, you ask? Well, approaching Tha Pae Gate on Tha Pae Road, it is the last soi before the gate, to the left.

Did Gecko main office move recently? If not, shouldn't it be the last soi to the right? For Greenside, turn at the Boots Pharmacy going around the side of it to the North which is to the right as you come up Thapae Rd going the correct way with the traffic which is West toward the mountains, Doi Suthep.

Please do let me know if I got it wrong because I really want to get this famous Big Map which seems as though it should be a required reference for everyone except BB.

Pardon me for making my instruction like, "turn left where the dog died." I referred to the main office of Gecko Books, having arrived here long after Mr. Gecko himself. Maybe I gave directions to Gecko branch number 321. Your directions including the Boots Pharmacy (the one opposite Art Cafe) are correct. As for Greenside, I thought he stayed at the Wyndham (private joke).

For those of you non-North Americans who lost your compass at the Battle of Agincourt, you are right. Forget compass directions which the Mayas and Aztecas memorized. Landmarks work fine, so long as the listener knows Wat Aung Sahn Kyi from Wat Udom Muk. When in doubt, turn back at the 8th 7-11 store.

[PeaceBlondie]

C'mon you folks - is this more fun than still yet another Chiang Mai restaurant thread?

[Asmerom]

The Big Map is indispensable. It nearly covers the moobahns in Doi Sakhet, and Hang Dong. On sale at the main office of Gecko Books. Wherefore is that, you ask? Well, approaching Tha Pae Gate on Tha Pae Road, it is the last soi before the gate, to the left.

Did Geko main office move recently? If not, shouldn't it be the last soi to the right? For Greenside, turn at the Boots Pharmacy going around the side of it to the North which is to the right as you come up Thapae Rd going the correct way with the traffic which is West toward the mountains, Doi Suthep.

Please do let me know if I got it wrong because I really want to get this famous Big Map which seems as though it should be a required reference for everyone except BB.

I'm with you on this one. The man who started it all gets his directions wrong or not at all clear! "Approaching Thappae Gate", he says. Well, from which direction? From Thappae Road, he might say. But the lost traveller doesn't know whether he's on Thappae Road or not. And it might take a good quarter hour to discover which road he's on.

Peaceblondie might have said, approaching Thappae Gate from "outside the moat", or "with the traffic" (its one way) or "from the East" ( compass supplied) and then he says, quite wrongly, its to the left, whereas, as you point out ,its to the Right. What a howler!! He will be crying into his cornflakes tomorrow. He certainly needs that Big Map and so do I. Is that what we ask for , "THE BIG MAP"?

Edited November 23, 2008 by Asmerom

[Ulysses G.]

Peaceblondie might have said, approaching Thappae Gate from "outside the moat", or "with the traffic" (its one way) or "from the East" ( compass supplied) and then he says, quite wrongly, its to the left, whereas, as you point out ,its to the Right. What a howler!! He will be crying into his cornflakes tomorrow.

As is a Supermoderator and can bounce anyone who is rude to him, he might have some company crying in the cornflakes!

[PeaceBlondie]

Peaceblondie might have said, approaching Thappae Gate from "outside the moat", or "with the traffic" (its one way) or "from the East" ( compass supplied) and then he says, quite wrongly, its to the left, whereas, as you point out ,its to the Right. What a howler!! He will be crying into his cornflakes tomorrow.

As is a Supermoderator and can bounce anyone who is rude to him, he might have some company crying in the cornflakes!

But if the real Mr. Gecko did not have 322 branches, I might have known which store is on that soi across from Art Cafe and behind that Boots Chemist! And maybe there is no roundabout or traffic circle there, because traffic cannot go roundabout it. Having only seen 3 roundabouts in all of Texas I get confused.

Oh, and you need to learn your landmarks. I am not sure if I have really seen the three kings monument, which is like living in Lamphun and not seeing the Queen Jamatary statue.

[amexpat]

The "Big Map" is from Hobo Maps. It's a must-have for everyone I know. Get the big one, the small one, and a 30 baht compass and go in peace.

I bought mine at Suriwong bookstore. The small one covers the inner city to just outside the moat in large size detail and has an index of landmarks. The big one covers a wide area and has an index of the street names.

Did you know you can find an index of landmarks on the big map, too?

www.hobomaps.com says it all.

[NancyL]

Wow, this thread has been a real eye-opener. I thought it was just a Thai problem that they don't seem to use cardinal directions and don't understand that North should always be "up" on a map. I had no idea that only us North Americans knew how to use a map and compass. I guess that's because our ancestors had to find their way across a big ocean to North America and cross a continent while everyone else stayed in Europe where landmark knowledge like "where the big chestnut tree was before it was hit by lightening" was passed thru the generations!

[iainiain101]

Wow, this thread has been a real eye-opener. I thought it was just a Thai problem that they don't seem to use cardinal directions and don't understand that North should always be "up" on a map. I had no idea that only us North Americans knew how to use a map and compass. I guess that's because our ancestors had to find their way across a big ocean to North America and cross a continent while everyone else stayed in Europe where landmark knowledge like "where the big chestnut tree was before it was hit by lightening" was passed thru the generations!

Does that make you of Scandinavian or Chinese decent?