Patong Becoming Too Expensive?

[logbags]

I just looked at the Phuketwan website and read the various articles about how bad the tourist season is going etc, but is anyone really surprised given how fast things have become overdone in places like Patong.

People are talking about the political strife and airport close down but nobody mentions the fact that many currencies are going bad against the baht and this makes things seem expensive. I feel this is the main reason along with the expectation of next year being very tough economically. Anyone who spends more than 5 minutes in Thailand knows political strife is just the norm and most people I know never worry about it.

I was in Phuket for 5 weeks until last week. In July I was getting 31 baht a dollar. It is about 22 baht a dollar now. So a 30% decrease in the value of my dollar made Patong in particular seem expensive. I live on about 1500 baht a day which I would consider as cheap as a person can during the high season.

I have a number of friends from Europe who failed to show this year but I don't keep check of currencies so don't know how hard they have been hit. I think Patong is becoming extremely overpriced and will be hardest hit if things get any worse.

I just did a quick mental costing for a single guy

For example a decent room may cost 1000 baht a night in high season.

If you eat 3 meals a day maybe another 750 to 1000 baht depending on where you eat and if you drink beer, wine etc.

If a drinker a few beers in the room followed by another say 5 in a bar or club may cost another 750 baht or more

If you wanted the company of a girl if would be at least 1000 baht, if that requires a tuk tuk we are looking at 4000 baht a day before any other expenses like beach chairs or shopping. The girl could be 2000 baht if a bar fine or drinks are involved.

So this can be 4000 to 5000 baht a day very easily if you are a big drinker and this is without any extras like jet skis or side trips to Phi Phi etc. This can hardly be considered cheap given most Thai's earn as little as 100 baht a day. Most maids get something like 6000 a month, office staff 6-8 at the place I stay.

The high prices relate directly to the overblown rents charged. I was told the 2nd floor over the corner of Soi Eric and Soi Katoey was rented at 24 million for 3 years which I think must be bullshit. I remember Andrew who built the Kangaroo bar offered me his share for 200,000 baht and I laughed at him!!

There was an article in the Bangkok Post recently waffling on about the value of investing in high end real estate in Phuket, in small letters at the bottom of the article it said it was written by the general manager of Raimon land who just happen to be a high end villa building company. Two letters followed suggesting this guy was talking crap and from what I've seen this is where the big drop will happen. A very nice two bedroom apartment in Australia by the beach in most areas would cost 8-10 million baht.

30 to 40 million baht would get you a mansion with a pool and tennis court in many areas and you own it yourself. Who is paying 50-80 million for what in most cases is a glorified apartment in which you don't own the land?? If this real estate is walking of the plan why has every place got a giant board out front advertising places for sale?

I suspect many of these places have been bought by speculators who have paid a cheaper price for buying off the plan and are are trying to resell to make a quick killing. I have seen some places advertised for years. I think they aren't selling because they are simply not worth the price being asked.

I recently spoke to a Swedish guy who paid 7 million for an apartment in Surin. He said it was more expensive than Sweden and we both agreed the cost of building in Thailand is probably at least 50% cheaper. We both thought things would crash considerably.

My point, Phuket is a great place, but not that great I would spend more than it costs to live in my own country to stay there. I had a good look at the demographic of where I was staying in Patong. It was basically older farang guy, 55-70 with younger Isarn girlfriend or wife. At 46 I don't actually feel too old while in Patong............

[CroBiker]

Well stated logbags, I agree with you about foreign speculators.

Some prices are just outrageous. Here in California I live in condo where Schwarzenegger, Demi Moore and Oprah Winfrey own few units and current prices are between 500k to 1,2 mil dollars. Fantastic seaview, tennis courts, gym, winter and summer pool, bowling alley, sauna, you name it....

20-30 million baht condos in Phuket....give me a break! I love this island but property prices are unjustified.

[Ping]

I just about know all the words to this song now...

[logbags]

One of the things that I did notice was the Tuk Tuks. Since Patong has become one way it can be deadly trying to cross the road at night as tuk tuk drivers speed to get back to the queue in Bangla. I have heard for years about these guys but never used them.

I saw first hand one night when I saw a guy wanting a tuk tuk from about 50 metres up from Bangla. He wanted to go to Graceland which was about 400 metres from where this guy was standing, the guy demanded 200 baht and I was shocked and watched to see if this guy actually knew where he was.

My question is how much do these guys ask to go to Kata, Karon or even Surin?

[jdinasia]

Your currency loses value and you blame Patong?

You think that TukTuks haven't been an issue for YEARS?

I just don't get it. There are many places to go on the Island other than Patong .. but since you mention Bangla Rd I guess we all understand

[stevenl]

People are talking about the political strife and airport close down but nobody mentions the fact that many currencies are going bad against the baht and this makes things seem expensive

Judging from the fact that from the moment the airport was occupied booking requests were down to almost zilch and before that the number of requests was about the same as last year: the political problems are the cause.

[logbags]

smile.gif Your currency loses value and you blame Patong?

Blame Patong? What post are you reading? I was talking about Patong being expensive if you compare it to the relative cost of everywhere else in Thailand and I am saying what you have is overpriced real estate and when reality comes knocking things will nosedive. The 20 year boom has to end sooner or later.

I spend a lot of time in Nakhon Sri Thammarart. A nice hotel with cable TV, aircon and a bath is 450 baht a night. A nice meal from room service for 2 about 200 baht. Nice khowman gai or khowmok gai 25 baht on the street a plate. You go to a bar with bands, 60 baht a large beer, 10-15 a softdrink. Some bars in Patong ask 60 baht a softdrink. 5 to six times more expensive. Why? they are paying 5 times more rent than anywhere else in Thailand.

I recently saw two very nice shophouses sold in the main street for 2.9 million for both. This is a sensitive topic as so many farangs in Phuket are now involved in the real estate business or have vested interests. My Thai niece just built a pretty large 2 level house in Krabi for 300,000 baht on her own land. The so called high end stuff in Phuket is not that much better in quality, a brick is a brick and concrete is concrete.

A guy I know bought a villa for 30 million in a controversial site just near Patong on the hill just past Kamala. Nice place but he pointed out a number of serious problems with drainage and the roof and it's brand new. Sooner or later there is going to be a serious land slide or building disaster in Phuket and I bet the developer will be nowhere to be found.

I remember asking an old guy who was born and bred in Phuket why nobody ever built of the side of the hills around Patong. He basically said people over the years tried but in the end the weather and rain won, maybe modern building can overcome this.

I just got an email from a guy who said Phuket is a mirror of Spain and he reckons there is empty condos all over the place there. I always knew development would come but these walled off or gated places blocking access to beaches are a pain in the arse.

[Ulysses G.]

Many things in Phuket are almost Western prices and they do not have Western quality. I stopped going there years ago as Pattaya is about 25% of the price for hotels,food and transport. You can't swim in the ocean, but a hotel with swimming pool goes for around 500 baht!

[LivinginKata]

1. The 20 year boom has to end sooner or later.

2. I spend a lot of time in Nakhon Sri Thammarart. Some bars in Patong ask 60 baht a softdrink. 5 to six times more expensive. Why? they are paying 5 times more rent than anywhere else in Thailand.

3. My Thai niece just built a pretty large 2 level house in Krabi for 300,000 baht on her own land.

4. I just got an email from a guy who said Phuket is a mirror of Spain and he reckons there is empty condos all over the place there.

1. I've been here over 12 years and each year I hea 'bubble going to burst'. Never happened yet, but next year it might actually happen.. at last.

2. Plenty of bars in Patong sell beer at 60 baht or less, just have to look about.

3. 2 floor house for 300,000 baht. I really don't think that's possible, and I speak with building experience here in Patong over 10 years. Maybe 10 years ago, but in 2008 I would think that 700,000 baht for a basic building would be a really minimal cost.

4. Yep.. agree. Ever before the financial downturn and Thai government problems I've been declaring far too many new build condos coming on stream early 2009 = big surplus of rental units and second market sales units. Hard to see who is going to take up the slack.

I can see real hardship after end of Jan/Feb 2009 for business owners, and I include myself in that group. Those people renting/leasing business properties will soon be leaving Phuket. And the incredible thing is that Thai owners are actually INCREASING rents to make up for rental income losses.

[thaigerd]

Many things in Phuket are almost Western prices and they do not have Western quality. I stopped going there years ago as Pattaya is about 25% of the price for hotels,food and transport. You can't swim in the ocean, but a hotel with swimming pool goes for around 500 baht!

1000% agree with your statements!

Gerd

[logbags]

1. I've been here over 12 years and each year I hea 'bubble going to burst'. Never happened yet, but next year it might actually happen.. at last.

Well it was always a matter of when not if, most of Thailand has developed at a reasonable level but Phuket has been quite ridiculous. In our recent history has there ever been a boom followed by another one? I dunno? I spoke to an old time Aussie builder and he said a slow down usually came roughly every 12 years since world war 2. I know guys who are pretty savvy on economics and they are all saying we are in uncharted waters, unfortunately I think the wheels are going to fall off in many sectors in Thailand, simply because they have been built on dodgy foundations. Like in the tourist industry and the "farang will always come splurging cash mentality" you often see, the day may come when us farangs don't have the dosh. On the plus side I think it may force a lot of people back onto the land and inspire people to become more self sufficient because they'll have to be. In the west most of us would be stuffed if the local supermarket closed.

2. Plenty of bars in Patong sell beer at 60 baht or less, just have to look about.

Well yes, lack of customers and more and more bars opening are driving prices down rather than up. I walk around Patong at night and it is only really busy in that area in Bangla from Tiger up to the Kangaroo. I ride to my mates house in Cherng Talay daily and often don't ride back to Patong until very late. Kamala is basically a ghost town at night, there is nothing in Surin, Bang Tao or Cherng Talay so I get very surprised when I see agents talking this area up as millionaires mile etc. I mean you'll be a lonely millionaire in most of these areas except for a few places on the hills where you cannot get into anyway. (Amanpuri)

3. 2 floor house for 300,000 baht. I really don't think that's possible, and I speak with building experience here in Patong over 10 years. Maybe 10 years ago, but in 2008 I would think that 700,000 baht for a basic building would be a really minimal cost.

That was a few years ago with family labour. Ok lets say 700,000 plus land cost, certainly seems like a fat profit being made on most places sold to farangs. I not against a fair earn by any means. It is just market forces but in the last 5 years it is mainly overseas developers who are doing the upscale developments. I have heard many rumours over the years of money laundering by certain well known farangs, I have no idea but certain people do seem to have an endless supply of cash.

4. Yep.. agree. Ever before the financial downturn and Thai government problems I've been declaring far too many new build condos coming on stream early 2009 = big surplus of rental units and second market sales units. Hard to see who is going to take up the slack.

Well infrastructure and water will be a future problem no doubt, as well as waste management. This and the ongoing environmental destruction are what I'd be worried about. Far too many "high end places" being built destroying the hillsides and mountains. How many of us could afford a 20 million baht house anyway? In a country where you have virtually no protection from the law if your conflict is with someone of influence and where you cannot ever own the land. There is a certain mentality from cashed up farang people on Phuket and that is if you cannot afford a 20 million dollar house, then don't come here. They are the same people who want 200 million baht houses built next to private boat moorings etc. The same types who then want to pay their maid 4000 baht a month.

I can see real hardship after end of Jan/Feb 2009 for business owners, and I include myself in that group. Those people renting/leasing business properties will soon be leaving Phuket. And the incredible thing is that Thai owners are actually INCREASING rents to make up for rental income losses.

Well most of the landlords are Chinese not Thai, just watch people at Chinese new year to see how many people in Phuket town consider themselves Thai. I know a Chinese guy who owns half of Patong, he used to own most of Bangla and I guess his family still would. I fought a 10 year court battle against a Chinese guy from Phuket town over some property, 3 appeals and we won after he was shot dead. His brother flew in from America and was also shot dead, his son flew in from London where he was studying. Shot dead as well. 3 family members dead until his daughter finally gave up the properties. Never really found out who was behind it, he had enemies all over Phuket and had burnt many people before us. One thing I do know is Thais have long memories if they have a beef with you and find out you have a beef with someone else they use that as a cover to take you out. Old but effective strategy?

I guess I just get filthy when I see so many beautiful places plundered because you can see the bloody beach from a bedroom window. This "sea view" thing is pure farang, most Thais I know hate the beach.

[logbags]

Many things in Phuket are almost Western prices and they do not have Western quality. I stopped going there years ago as Pattaya is about 25% of the price for hotels,food and transport. You can't swim in the ocean, but a hotel with swimming pool goes for around 500 baht!

I see this in Patong sooner rather than later. I was paying 450 a night at a place in Patong with pool which is ok for December.

The rising inequality really hit me at Laypang beach where my mate has opened a small tattoo shop. A few of my Thai friends work there selling drinks and trying to make an earn on the beach. They come back with 100 or 200 baht after a day at the beach at the moment as it is very quiet.

Behind my mates shack he rents as a tattoo shop is a development. It is inside the Laguna and nearly finished. Too me it is like an overly crowded block of high end units. I was told they are up to 40 million!! That's nearly 2 million Aust. $$/ Staggering where people are making $10 a day.

Even more sinister is the importing of cheap Burmese labour to build a lot of these developments. I'm told some Burmese are on 60 baht some 80 baht a day!! Building high end homes worth millions. In front of these high end units is a road unfit to drive on and beach hut type restaurants run by locals. Saw this type of social inequality in the Philippines under Marcos

Sooner rather than later people who buy these high end places will want to move these poorer people off the beaches so they can have a clear sea view. They have already done this successfully in places but are facing opposition at other places.

[pothai]

Phuket holds strong in my heart because of the Tsunami but now it is nothing more than an expensive Pattaya.......

[LivinLOS]

Your currency loses value and you blame Patong?

You think that TukTuks haven't been an issue for YEARS?

I just don't get it. There are many places to go on the Island other than Patong .. but since you mention Bangla Rd I guess we all understand

No I dont.. But can you name anywhere else in Thailand where a beer bar charges 180 baht for a normal drink and 250 baht for a LD ??

Or anywhere else where tuktuks charge remotely like this ??

Phuket doesnt have the organisation or infrastructure for genuine high end visitors, and its now pricing itself out of the lower end party travellers. Doesnt effect me much but I am watching numbers crash, businesses suffer etc.

[LivinLOS]

People are talking about the political strife and airport close down but nobody mentions the fact that many currencies are going bad against the baht and this makes things seem expensive

Judging from the fact that from the moment the airport was occupied booking requests were down to almost zilch and before that the number of requests was about the same as last year: the political problems are the cause.

The numbers were already is hard decline before the airport closures..

Of course that was the cherry on the cake for booking but I suspect the real effect of that will be next year.

[logbags]

Phuket doesnt have the organisation or infrastructure for genuine high end visitors, and its now pricing itself out of the lower end party travellers. Doesnt effect me much but I am watching numbers crash, businesses suffer etc.

Well this sentence sums it all up perfectly.

I just spoke to my niece who is in Prai Phaya in Krabi. Everyone knows the price of rubber and palm oil have crashed very badly and she told me a lot of people bought new cars on finance when the price was up and now they cannot afford them.

Some people have tried to return them but the car company is so spooked it won't let people do it and the finance companies are trying to tell people to hang on for 6 months to see if things get better.

Krabi is a pretty wealthy area in terms of agriculture but she tells me nobody will drive and people are just eating at home to save money. I can't imagine how things must be in Isarn.

On the other hand when you have nothing you have nothing to lose.

[canadianmonkey]

Even if the buildings had close to western quality(meaning not everything made from cheap concrete by clueless people) this is a third world country and prices should still be at least a little lower.

LivingKata, i have a question.

Why do home builders not rent @ 5000 baht cheaper or 10 000baht cheaper for 4-6months rental types. i know theres a HUGE ammount of people who'd love to rent a house for 2-3-4-5months only and not have to pay insane ammounts for a cheap built house+ cheap furniture(most of what is available for rentals) but people seem to ask for 2-3x their monthly bank payment so tourists end up staying in hotels for 9-10k baht a month outside of patong

it doesnt take a 3rd grader to figure out that renting 5-10kbaht cheaper to short term tourists all year long is better than waiting 1 year to rent it with a little more profit.

I ask you because you must know a lot of people with many houses for rent

[LivinLOS]

Short term renters are a lot of work !!

Ideally you rent to someone, they take care of 90% of the things outside major maintenance, they pay the UBC and utilities etc etc etc.

Plenty of people will rent to them, but the prices are of course with some extra to cover the additional workload.

[phomsanuk]

I just looked at the Phuketwan website and read the various articles about how bad the tourist season is going etc, but is anyone really surprised given how fast things have become overdone in places like Patong.

People are talking about the political strife and airport close down but nobody mentions the fact that many currencies are going bad against the baht and this makes things seem expensive. I feel this is the main reason along with the expectation of next year being very tough economically. Anyone who spends more than 5 minutes in Thailand knows political strife is just the norm and most people I know never worry about it.

I was in Phuket for 5 weeks until last week. In July I was getting 31 baht a dollar. It is about 22 baht a dollar now. So a 30% decrease in the value of my dollar made Patong in particular seem expensive. I live on about 1500 baht a day which I would consider as cheap as a person can during the high season.

I have a number of friends from Europe who failed to show this year but I don't keep check of currencies so don't know how hard they have been hit. I think Patong is becoming extremely overpriced and will be hardest hit if things get any worse.

I just did a quick mental costing for a single guy

For example a decent room may cost 1000 baht a night in high season.

If you eat 3 meals a day maybe another 750 to 1000 baht depending on where you eat and if you drink beer, wine etc.

If a drinker a few beers in the room followed by another say 5 in a bar or club may cost another 750 baht or more

If you wanted the company of a girl if would be at least 1000 baht, if that requires a tuk tuk we are looking at 4000 baht a day before any other expenses like beach chairs or shopping. The girl could be 2000 baht if a bar fine or drinks are involved.

So this can be 4000 to 5000 baht a day very easily if you are a big drinker and this is without any extras like jet skis or side trips to Phi Phi etc. This can hardly be considered cheap given most Thai's earn as little as 100 baht a day. Most maids get something like 6000 a month, office staff 6-8 at the place I stay.

The high prices relate directly to the overblown rents charged. I was told the 2nd floor over the corner of Soi Eric and Soi Katoey was rented at 24 million for 3 years which I think must be bullshit. I remember Andrew who built the Kangaroo bar offered me his share for 200,000 baht and I laughed at him!!

There was an article in the Bangkok Post recently waffling on about the value of investing in high end real estate in Phuket, in small letters at the bottom of the article it said it was written by the general manager of Raimon land who just happen to be a high end villa building company. Two letters followed suggesting this guy was talking crap and from what I've seen this is where the big drop will happen. A very nice two bedroom apartment in Australia by the beach in most areas would cost 8-10 million baht.

30 to 40 million baht would get you a mansion with a pool and tennis court in many areas and you own it yourself. Who is paying 50-80 million for what in most cases is a glorified apartment in which you don't own the land?? If this real estate is walking of the plan why has every place got a giant board out front advertising places for sale?

I suspect many of these places have been bought by speculators who have paid a cheaper price for buying off the plan and are are trying to resell to make a quick killing. I have seen some places advertised for years. I think they aren't selling because they are simply not worth the price being asked.

I recently spoke to a Swedish guy who paid 7 million for an apartment in Surin. He said it was more expensive than Sweden and we both agreed the cost of building in Thailand is probably at least 50% cheaper. We both thought things would crash considerably.

My point, Phuket is a great place, but not that great I would spend more than it costs to live in my own country to stay there. I had a good look at the demographic of where I was staying in Patong. It was basically older farang guy, 55-70 with younger Isarn girlfriend or wife. At 46 I don't actually feel too old while in Patong............

22 BHT. to the $$$$ ??

[geriatrickid]

Like all situations where locations are overpriced, the markets acts to correct that distortion. It will happen in Patong and I won't feel bad for some of the big property owners that get roasted. When times were booming, they didn't think twice when it came to screwing folks. Now some of them will feel what it's like to be on the other end of the deal.

[starkey_rich]

dry.gif 22 BHT. to the $$$$ ??

Ozzie Dollar I suppose.

Not only the US use dollars

[greenwater]

Australian dollar?

Edited December 23, 2008 by greenwater

[wensiensheng]

IMHO, there are always rising property prices in Phuket, and I think Thailand in general, because in the good times prices go up, and in the bad times....nobody sells. Certainly the locals will never sell for lower than the last price they had in mind. So there is never a down turn, just a period with no transactions.

[Old Croc]

Some Americans should realise that they didn't invent the "dollar" as a unit of currency, and that there are something like 25-30 others countries using the term dollar for their money.

While the Op should have specified what currency he was talking about, the more astute were able to work it out from the value quoted.

If Americans want something original, perhaps Wampum could be the new official name for their dollar .

As someone who has travelled to Phuket 2-3 times a year for some time now, I also, am finding increased prices hard to take even allowing for the imbalance of the exchange rates. Hotels I once stayed in are now twice the price of a couple of years ago. And I'm talking in terms of the baht, not how many of them my dollar buys.

Drinks, food, tuktuks, etc, are all similarly much higher.

I'm now seriously considering alternatives for my planned retirement. As much as I love Phuket the idea is to live cheaper than I can do at home.

[canadianmonkey]

Short term renters are a lot of work !!

Ideally you rent to someone, they take care of 90% of the things outside major maintenance, they pay the UBC and utilities etc etc etc.

Plenty of people will rent to them, but the prices are of course with some extra to cover the additional workload.

Maybe for a nice house, but theres a million house as on houseinphuket dot com, which are no way worth over 2.5mil asking for 20-35k per month + they are not in good shape and have really REALLY terrible furniture..

There's no extra cost to them, they just let their house rot there and wont rent it for cheaper when no sensible person will pay their demanded price unless they're a total brainless sheep

Anyways Phuket is the summun of stupidity.. The point condos: 25k baht for rental, like 2.5mil minimum for a small condo with lots of outside noise 24/7 and far from beach.

when in bangkok u can buy a brand new condo 5mins from the new bts for 2mil with AWESOME furniture, and no outside noise(view on park+lake) + about 1.5x the size of the cheapest one at the point.

i laughed my ass off when the point said she'd rent her smallest rooms at 25k when even on houseinphuket her rooms go for 15k

Edited December 23, 2008 by canadianmonkey

[Samuian]

.....In July I was getting 31 baht a dollar. It is about 22 baht a dollar now.

For example a decent room may cost 1000 baht a night in high season.

If you eat 3 meals a day maybe another 750 to 1000 baht depending on where you eat and if you drink beer, wine etc.

If a drinker a few beers in the room followed by another say 5 in a bar or club may cost another 750 baht or more

Which Exchange Booth did you got to, the one I've been, payed me 33.45 to 34.73 ThB to the US$ depending on the denomination.

And that is compared to pre 1998 still approx. 10 ThB more than ever before this time!

There are rather inexpensive Thai dishes ranging from some very reasonable 40 ThB for Chicken on Rice and the like of stir fried dishes, to yes Lobster or Seafood basket 1500 and up in to the sky... same with wine, ANYWHERE on the WORLD can have a decent Bottle for 10-15 US$ or pay 84.700 US$ for a Bottle of 1959 Vintage Dom Perignon.

If you can't afford it, sorry mate, try and make it first, then come back and make the girlz, the bar owners, the restaurateurs and the hotel owners, happy!

It's still, dirt cheap, compared to Europe...when did you have Lobster in Europe, or just a humble Steak? Even Pizza, is cheaper here then in Italy!

Edited December 23, 2008 by Samuian

[Jingthing]

If Americans want something original, perhaps Wampum could be the new official name for their dollar tongue..

I like me some wampum!

Actually, saying generic DOLLAR anywhere in the world other than in a country with their own dollars is generally understood to mean US dollars as the US dollar is still the primary world reserve currency. As this is a Thai related board, dollar without qualification does mean US dollar. I agree I knew from the rate he wasn't talking yankee sawbucks.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Jingthing

[LivinLOS]

22 BHT. to the $$$$ ??

There other dollars outside of the American one you know ??

in fact if I need to point that out I should probably mention there are places outside of America too ??

[LivinLOS]

IMHO, there are always rising property prices in Phuket, and I think Thailand in general, because in the good times prices go up, and in the bad times....nobody sells. Certainly the locals will never sell for lower than the last price they had in mind. So there is never a down turn, just a period with no transactions.

But due to global credit fueled booms they have never had a real downturn.. Even the 97 currency crisis just made it cheaper to come here.

[LivinLOS]

Which Exchange Booth did you got to, the one I've been, payed me 33.45 to 34.73 ThB to the US$ depending on the denomination.

sigh.. Another one..

same with wine, ANYWHERE on the WORLD can have a decent Bottle for 10-15 US$

Except Thailand.. 'decent' wine at 350 - 500 baht.. I wish.

It's still, dirt cheap, compared to Europe...when did you have Lobster in Europe, or just a humble Steak? Even Pizza, is cheaper here then in Italy!

Its dirt cheap if you live a fairly low quality existence, if your prepared to cut out the nice stuff of the west and trade for just the climate here.. But try living with just a few of lifes luxuries, say a nice sports car, high end home electronics, the kind of things that would barely register as middle class lifestyle items and you rapidly get life becoming MORE expensive here than the west. It takes an awful lot of somtam and 40 baht chicken and rice dinners to save the 10+ million baht difference on the price of a merc.

Thailand doesnt provide the rich of the world, a 'quality tourist' type retiree, a cheaper lifestyle... I honestly spend about the same here and dont have my toys that I had, my old man just bought a house in the south of france with acres of land with skiing and beaches close by (plus roads, free hospitals, rule of law etc) for a fraction of what the same could be bought for in Thailand.

Thailand is cheap if you life in a condo that measures in double digit M3 or a 25k thai bungalow, drive a el cheapo asian shopping cart or some modifed pickup for a car, and eat rice.. Otherwise the savings you make on cheap labour and food are rapidly taken in stupid import dutys and laws designed to give you zero security.