Farang Murdered In Chiang Mai

[freitag1]

Of course there will be speculations about what happened to the victim. What mailmagican said is all fine and fancy but then these threads here would be just full of messages that express compassion. It's a tragic event but let people talk what they want. If you don't like it, ignore it.

[WaiWai]

Posts referring vaguely to "consequences of actions" and "taking people home" began circa Post #3.

Such posts do little more than make insinuations about individuals (or particular groups) under the veil of warnings to the foreign community.

I would repeat that, as yet, we have very few facts.

At present, I believe we can all do without speculation of any kind. Allow the people who knew David to share their grief and tributes on this thread. Many may still be learning of his death.

If you are absolutely incapable of refraining from posting in any of the variety of less enobling ways demonstated here, perhaps you could start another thread on this general topic.

Edited January 23, 2009 by WaiWai

[Loaded]

Nobody deserves to die in this manner.

RIP

[PhuketRam]

There is alot of disrespect on here for David's friends and Family whom may and are reading this.

A man has been murdered in whatever circumstances you wish to comment on, but do so with respect to the family and friends in mind.

[Canadianvisitor]

I have been reading this thread, ...............................

I didn't know the guy, but I will offer what so many other of you should be doing, instead of your mindless drivel . A simple message, RIP.

Phil

This is all too too frequent on the whole everywhere on the net and "Thank you" Phil.

I hope this is not the beginning of a witchhunt for hill Tribes.

To the friends and family, to all of us who read this, my respectful condolences.

[easybullet3]

Well i guess if you want to throw police off your trail in Chiang Mai smash a light and instantly they think its these tribes...

I don't like stereotyping but it seems the Thai police always know exactly what's going on. Ask them about any crime and they will have an answer ready - even if they just discovered the body.

if thai police know exactly whats going on, why dont they ever catch anyone?!!! and why are they so unhelpful to follow through crimes when you report them?

i agree, if anyone smashes a light after doing a crime, then it puts the police off their trail!!

and also, 'tribal ritual'. HARDLY!!! i thought tribal ritual involved more than smashing a light (which could have broken in a flight or smashed to create darkness). cutting a throat and smothering someone with a cloth, (although very nasty and evil) is a horrible way to be killed, but not at all ritualisticly performed.

so the Smashing of the Light has beocme the reason for the headline!! now criminal in chang mai reading this story will smash a light after any crime to deter the police!!!

Edited January 23, 2009 by easybullet3

[Jai Dee]

There is alot of disrespect on here for David's friends and Family whom may and are reading this.

A man has been murdered in whatever circumstances you wish to comment on, but do so with respect to the family and friends in mind.

Absolutely.

Way too much speculation and off-topic drivel in this thread.

Posters are reminded to heed earlier moderator's warnings.

[red devil]

First of all, my sympathy to the victim's family.

Secondly, a point raised earlier about Thai TV. I seldom watch the Thai soaps but every time I flick through the channels you can guarantee that either fighting or some silly woman screaming at the top of her voice will be seen. This is from a country whose people apparently abhor violence. Constantly seeeing behaviour like this will influence people to act in the same way. If Thailand is getting more violent, maybe blame the soap operas.

As for the clown Yeeowww, to label all farangs like you have, suggests to me that you are a little jealous as you feel that other people are on your cloud. Not only you are allowed to reside in this country, get over it you self-righteous, sad individual.

[Steve2UK]

May I suggest that members here don't respond to some of the obviously sick posts that are appearing - or, at least, don't quote them. IMO better to use the "Report" button at bottom left of the offending posts (when you're logged in). You'll find that the Mods are very alert to such posts and will delete them very quickly - but you make it more difficult for them if the original posts are also quoted in your own response to them.

RIP David and my condolences to his family and friends.

[MaryJane]

Really a very sad end to what sounds like a wonderful man...no matter what his gender preference was.

This can be a very horrifying place to come and read comments about your loved one that are taken so far off the path of truth.

I know this from experience when my brother Dale was murdered in Ranong.

It is extremely difficult to go a day without thinking about the violent means they left this world.

Nobody deserves this...R.I.P. David

Sincere condolences to his family and friends.

[bubba]

The tribal ritual story, I think should be taken with a pinch of salt and didn't see it mentioned in the Thai article.

Has anyone honestly heard of Shan smashing lights after robberies to avoid capture.

I suppose simple robbery would be too boring for reporters.

The Sun is famous for following the journalists motto: "never let the truth stand in the way of a good story". What is sad is that's the tag line that's now been picked up in all the other reports.

The ritualistic killing bit is pure tabloid hype. Was just talking to some Shan friends and they were saying its not just a Shan thing but several other hill tribes, such as Musa (Spelling?) who believe in this and most don't take it too seriously.

The comments about the Shan (AKA Tai Yai) are also wrong, they are not a Hill tribe but the indigenous population from the Shan State in Myanmar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shan. Of course, many of the villages there still don't have electricity, despite what the Sun says!

So I have a friend who owns a resort up north and most of his staff are of Shan ethnicity. He asked his staff whether they had ever heard of:

Before the killer left the murder scene he smashed the ceiling light in Mr Crisp's office at his home, a custom which Shan tribesmen believe would put the police off their trail.

The Shan staff replied: "we have never heard of any [custom] like that, ever". I have to say that a headline with a reference to a "ritual tribal murder" certainly grabs one's attention more that "expat reportedly murdered in a lover's quarrel"

Also, thanks for clarifying that the Shan are not hilltribe or "tribal". Shan have a long and distinguished cultural history, including a royal family. They are truly indigenous in some areas of Thailand, such as along the border in Mae Hong Son, where they have lived for centuries. For example, architecture of the old temples in Mae Hong Son town is Shan, as is most of the culture there.

[Samuian]

Very sad news indeed.

I do think however that folk need to be more aware of the consequences of their actions.

BB made reference (in another post) to something along the lines of situation awareness.

Sad so sad!

Sorry, how exactly one is going to implement this awareness?

No one can foresee his murders, especially it is your lover or such!

[redscouse]

I have been reading this thread, and feel sickened.

Does Thailand really have this sort of percentage of sick, inconsiderate, narrow minded, bigoted, childish Ex-Pat morons such as are posting on this thread?

well it's a little narrow minded to expect everyone to fit in with what you find acceptable, now I would ask you the same question, would you call me a sick, inconsiderate, narrow minded, bigoted, childish Ex-Pat moron in a bar or are you happiest doing it through the anonymity of a forum.

We are all adults on here and we all have views that may not fit in with yours, feel free to give your views without abusing others views.

Any death is tragic, all you can do is try and minimise the risks you take

[wpbr]

I was with great dismay that I heard of the recent tragic death of David Crisp. I'm currently outside Thailand.

Although not a personal friend, I was one of those to whom he offered his wonderful teaching and musical talents.

As a rank outsider in the singing stakes, he accepted me into his Madrigal singing group, offering his patient encouragement and help. I don't think this opportunity could have been had elsewhere or with anyone else of his calibre.

Thank you.

Vale David Crisp, a gentleman.

[barky]

Well i guess if you want to throw police off your trail in Chiang Mai smash a light and instantly they think its these tribes...

I don't like stereotyping but it seems the Thai police always know exactly what's going on. Ask them about any crime and they will have an answer ready - even if they just discovered the body.

That's probably because in the vast majority of cases it's actually been the cops who did the killing in the first place and had a prepared reason. Their reasons often never make sensce to anyone with half a brain, but you see they think that everyone has lower intellegence than them, and, being in Thailand that is also often true.

Edited January 23, 2009 by barky

[Nienke]

Rest in Peace, David. What a horrific way to go. I hope you have found peace, now.

My deepest sympathies to his family, the many friends he has made here in Chiang Mai and elsewhere and all those he has helped.

Nienke

[mallmagician]

I have been reading this thread, and feel sickened.

Does Thailand really have this sort of percentage of sick, inconsiderate, narrow minded, bigoted, childish Ex-Pat morons such as are posting on this thread?

well it's a little narrow minded to expect everyone to fit in with what you find acceptable, now I would ask you the same question, would you call me a sick, inconsiderate, narrow minded, bigoted, childish Ex-Pat moron in a bar or are you happiest doing it through the anonymity of a forum.

We are all adults on here and we all have views that may not fit in with yours, feel free to give your views without abusing others views.

Any death is tragic, all you can do is try and minimise the risks you take

I think you may have not taken my comments as intended. I cannot see one of your posts on this thread aside from this one.

But to answer your question, Yes. If you were taking part in a group discussion about this tragic event, and you came out with something I find sick, inconsiderate, narrow minded, bigoted or childish, then sure, I would make my opinion known. Especially if I can see the hurt it will cause those that knew him.

If you still think its ok, read all the posts from people who KNEW him. Spare a thought for them, (And from what I can see, they tend to agree with me).

I'm saying nothing more on the matter. Looks like the mods have got it all in hand.

[edwinclapham]

Well it worked out. The murderer is harder to catch. If the police sincerely thinks that smashing the light is a Shan thing than the Thai murderer can take his time to get away. Shan are not really animists anyhow if they ar animists the majority of the Thai are animists too, after all they they have all kinds of witch doctors (moh doo) who perform outrageous rites too. It looks a bit like the mas murderer that was creating havoc on the streets of bangkok, every time when a body was found in the trash the police said that it could not be a Thai as they would never do such a thing. Police incompetence in this country is appalling. By the way I smash my light now and than too but I am not a Shan, but I did take some piano lessons. It could also have been a muslim murder, they use to slash throats quite often. I would love to know how many innocent people there are in Thai jails because of the presumptuous way the police and courts handle their cases.

MALLMAGICIAN, so well said.... I can't think of anything worse if I was murdered then these disgusting self opinioned unedcuated B****ds commenting on my death. May this poor Music Teacher RIP, what a waste of talent and a good life. No one is able to express an opinion unless you knew him personally. At one time these forums were frequented by some really great guys but unfortunately the scum of humanity seem to have been let out of the west and letting the side down overseas!. Whether he was gay, straight etc is it so relevent to you so called macho scum???? I used to come into the forum before until the poor english girl Kirtsty Jones was murdered in CM, and to see some of the ex pat comments was stomach turning. If you cant say anything nice then dont say it!

[Naaling]

Scientists do not discuss theory, they argue it. If you can't take the heat, don't, for arguing a case is not for everybody.

Scientists base their arguments on empirical facts derived from careful research, not mindless conjecture.

Please don't suggest that the ignorant drivel presented by some people in this thread is in any way scientific

[ASHTONITE]

As I said in my first post... THE TRUTH MAY NEVER BE KNOWN! In any event this situation is unfortunate... no matter his sexual orientation.

[orchis]

My condolences to David's family and friends.

I am disgusted by the lies and innuendo by some posters around this sad case

[elektrified]

Anyone know how dangerous a lady-boy could be?

I mean violently dangerous.

Just asking.

This is sad. Sorry man.

Yes, they can be quite a DANGER. Especially that they often operate in groups and some of them are very big and quite strong. The crimes they do often go unreported for sake of rather obvious reasons. I once checked a lady-boys bag and discorever a torch and a swiss knife in it. They usually just steal but I've heard about bashings and killings as well.

My advise is that if you are to use "their services" do it in a hotel room and make sure your mobile phone, digi-cam and cash are still with you before they leave. NEVER bring them home or alow them to invite their friends to your place.

Just stay clear of them.

[Paagai]

I have been reading this thread, and feel sickened.

Does Thailand really have this sort of percentage of sick, inconsiderate, narrow minded, bigoted, childish Ex-Pat morons such as are posting on this thread?

So many inappropriate comments here. Too many to pick on any particular one. But I would state this:-

If you were sat in a bar discussing this horrific murder, and there were a number of people present who know the victim present, would you really say these things in their presence?

You can answer one of two ways I guess:-

(1) Yes you would - In which case I regard you with contempt, because you are a sad excuse for a human being, with no compassion.

or

(2) No you wouldn't - In which case I regard you as a gutless coward that hides behind the anonymity of the internet.

Please people. I used to really like Thai Visa, and I have had a lot of useful information from people who are on the whole (Or on the surface?), nice people. However, reading threads like this where everybody is throwing in their 2cents worth, with no foundation, basis, or thought for those that knew this guy, really makes me begin to dislike this forum.

I didn't know the guy, but I will offer what so many other of you should be doing, instead of your mindless drivel . A simple message, RIP.

Phil

Well said, Phil. You've saved me a lot of writing because you expressed my thoughts so clearly.

All I would add is that I spent most of yesterday with the Police at David's house and can say that 90% of what I read in the press so far is pure fantasy.

I can't divulge details, but I can say the police have quite capably been able to discern motive, opportunity, means and identity. Some of the identity work they did was really quite astounding considering the time frame. My hats off to them. The hunt is on.

(As an example of the drivel in the articles, one mentions David was a restauranteur. Those of us who knew him would tell you that he's as likely a restauranteur as General Chavalit is a ski instructor.)

Since retiring to Chiang Mai, David was a tireless fundraiser and humanitarian, complementing his gift for music teaching, performance and composition. He used his choral group to regularly raise funds for a number of charities, including the Fund for Education of Rural Children which supports rural schools (yes, Tai Yai and Shan) near the Burmese border.

David will be sorely missed, both by those who knew him, and by those who didn't know him but who benefited from his generosity and hard work.

Goodbye, David. We loved you.

The two most sensible posts on this thread so far. As Peekint has stated above, the reality is always far different from the rumour mill, let alone the crap spouted by the tabloid press. It is clear that both the BIB and the Tai Yai community in Chiang Mai have good knowledge of what happened and already have a name for the main purpertrator. Please everyone else shut up and let justice take its course.

There are better places on the internet for people who new David to post tributes. Personally, I am embarrased to have started this thread given the number of bigoted hompophobes from Chinag Mai's ex-pat communit who've crawled out of the woodwork to denigrate David's lifestyle and post their poison and speculation.

Moderators: CLOSE IT PLEASE!

P.S. As one final comment to refute allegations made here: AFAIK David was not a chaser of underage boys. The term "Boy" is often used by the ex-pat Gay community to mean hadnsome young men over 18 years of age and in no way implies involvement of anyone who is a minor.

[PeaceBlondie]

The late David L. Crisp was my nearest farang neighbor in Chiang Mai Lakeland, and a friend I had recently met through a local group of respectable gay adult men, Thai and farang. I was at the party that David held on Saturday night, maybe my sixth or eighth visit to his fine home, where he was always a gracious host. Paagai and peekint's posts are the best informed; they may have known him far better than I did. May he rest in peace.

The guards at our moobahn, like most guarded moobahns, do not stop people. I moved from there this morning, and never showed an ID nor does anybody else.

David had lots of friends and visitors, all above the age of consent, as far as I knew. I have known farang and Thais who brought young men back to their home, all over Thailand, with nothing like this transpiring. It is a most unfortunate wake-up call for all of us, straight or gay, Thai or foreigner.

More posts will be deleted, and the thread may soon be closed.

Poor David. Such a gentleman.

[NinjaGladiator]

At the end of the day a forum is to enlighten and inform people.

Although some could be a little more selective and less aggressive in their tone, I think this thread is doing exactly what it should. It may wake some people up to the fact that this stuff does go on, and if we just keep saying "Oh these thai people are terrible" then it'll just keep happening. What about saying "falang are stupid, if they didn't play the field and act like millionaire slags, they wouldn't get into these circumstances"

When I was young and foolish I took a bar-girl back to my pad, my laptop was out so I showed her all me pics b4 getting down to business. The next night I went to see her again, but she hadn't turned up for work. When I arrived home at 1am the door had been jimmyed and the laptop and camera had been stolen, nothing else was touched. That girl never returned to the bar, 2+2=4 in my eyes.

I settled down with the wife and never looked back.

Come-on guys it's not the size of your pr!cX, it's the size of your wallet (or safe in this instance) that they are interested in. Wake-up and smell the coffee, and stop degrading these poor soles.

Here's a nice rule of thumb, IF YOU HAVE TO FLASH THE CASH TO GET WHAT YOU WANT - WALK AWAY

[Ijustwannateach]

I have helpfully removed some off-topic inflammatory material, with a rather heavy hand for the initial offender- such a pity. I recommend that those who wish to make evil and unfounded insinuations against the dead, murdered victim do so elsewhere.

[sriracha john]

Before the thread is closed, could someone please post a photo of Mr. Crisp? I'd do it myself, but I've not found any at all in all of the news reports and for completeness of the thread I think it would appropriate.

Edited January 23, 2009 by sriracha john

[neema]

I just don't understand what kind of gated community it is. There is a quardian, right? He was on duty and saw the poor man's car driven by a Thai boy plus another Thai inside. And what? He couldn't stop the car and ask why there were taking it and where the owner was? What is actually the guardian's responsibility? For what he is there, at the gate, - to watch and that's all? It seems nobody cares of anything in this country. All they want is just farangs' money. As one Thai man said to me:"Oooh, Thai people need money..." As if nobody else does, only them...

You're right - in a perfect world the guard would have at least attempted to foil the guy's getaway. However, I've rarely seen a security guard care about who's coming in and out. Occasionally, one will ask questions, but usually they just wave you on through.

[Ijustwannateach]

It seems pretty clear from the reported news that the victim at least occasionally brought home male sex workers. I think a certain amount of reflection on the part of those who indulge in this side of the gay scene is in order based on the reported events; even if one of his 'visitors' of this type did not in fact kill him, their presence in his home certainly amounted to a security risk in terms of knowledge of his valuables, home, etc. which could have contributed to the actions of those who actually did kill him. Or, one of them might have indeed been the murderer; it's not unknown to happen.

I don't think we should obsess about it on this thread- and the thread certainly shouldn't turn into a wide-ranging discussion of pros and cons of prostitution, by any means (that's a big hint to NinjaGladiator and others)- but it is worth our members, gay or straight, thinking about how such things might likely have contributed to this terrible event.

[whiterussian]

Before the thread is closed, could someone please post a photo of Mr. Crisp?

r.i.p