I Will Return To Post Of Prime Minister: Thaksin

[Siripon]

lol .. right .. sorry but Giles is not the "first since" the 70's ---- you are leaving out many from the 80's and 90's (but then again you'd have to know a bit about it to understand that!)

Sulak fled into exile in the 90's. But he is a special case.

Who else are the other "many" academics who fled in the 90's (i included the 80's in my post)?

I think it was when Thailand hosted an Apec meeting that Giles publicly advocated the Thai authorities arrest George W Bush and prosecute him for the war in Iraq!

And then he said no to a coup and no to Thaksin.

Nice sentiments Giles, but hopelessly unrealistic. Life and politics is full of limited choices, for sure with no coup Thaksin would still be pillaging the country.

[hammered]

You can read up on what Giles has to say from the UK on his blog. Im in Thailand and can get through all right, so the authorities have given his site the green light. Very interesting.

OMG - taken that link to his wdpress blog down, just read his recent article! That's one angry man!

The red shirt leadership must be trying to work out how to distance themselves from this very rapidly.

[sriracha john]

You can read up on what Giles has to say from the UK on his blog. Im in Thailand and can get through all right, so the authorities have given his site the green light. Very interesting.

OMG - taken that link to his wdpress blog down, just read his recent article! That's one angry man!

The red shirt leadership must be trying to work out how to distance themselves from this very rapidly.

No easy task for them to do as he was one of their recent headliners at the rally just 10 days ago... and joined their wonderful cause with their bigwigs.... just before fleeing the country....

Jakrapob Penkair (left) meets Giles Ji Ungpakorn (right)

Professor Giles Ji Ungpakorn turned up as well, wearing a black T-shirt with a red baseball cap. He had joined the reds, he said. I followed Prof Giles up on to the stage and took a picture of him greeting Jakrapob Penkair. To me that moment was one of many symbolic ones of the last three years of political turmoil in Thailand

- Straits Times / 2009-02-01

Will the Red Shirts support his 9-point platform????

http://asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=c...mp;limitstart=1

[hammered]

You can read up on what Giles has to say from the UK on his blog. Im in Thailand and can get through all right, so the authorities have given his site the green light. Very interesting.

OMG - taken that link to his wdpress blog down, just read his recent article! That's one angry man!

The red shirt leadership must be trying to work out how to distance themselves from this very rapidly.

No easy task for them to do as he was one of their recent headliners at the rally just 10 days ago... and joined their wonderful cause with their bigwigs.... just before fleeing the country....

Jakrapob Penkair (left) meets Giles Ji Ungpakorn (right)

Professor Giles Ji Ungpakorn turned up as well, wearing a black T-shirt with a red baseball cap. He had joined the reds, he said. I followed Prof Giles up on to the stage and took a picture of him greeting Jakrapob Penkair. To me that moment was one of many symbolic ones of the last three years of political turmoil in Thailand

- Straits Times / 2009-02-01

Will the Red Shirts support his 9-point platform????

http://asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=c...mp;limitstart=1

If they truly support what Giles is saying then I am not surprised that many of the upcountry red shirt groups have split from the Bangkok based ideological group. It is also rather odd that he flees and says it all from safetly while leaving his compatriots in Thailand. Considering depth of feeling on this issue throughout Thailand he is placing them at considerable risk and not just from authorities. It seems a bit irresponsible and I cant see him wanting to encourage a violent act against the red shirts.

[SmugFarangBore]

You can read up on what Giles has to say from the UK on his blog. Im in Thailand and can get through all right, so the authorities have given his site the green light. Very interesting.

OMG - taken that link to his wdpress blog down, just read his recent article! That's one angry man!

That's one stupid man!

I'm surprised you have the audacity to say that.

Either way, he is entitled to his opinion and he should be allowed to express himself IMO.

It appears his blog has now been blocked by MICT.

How many websites is that blocked this week now? 10,000? 15,000?

[hammered]

You can read up on what Giles has to say from the UK on his blog. Im in Thailand and can get through all right, so the authorities have given his site the green light. Very interesting.

OMG - taken that link to his wdpress blog down, just read his recent article! That's one angry man!

That's one stupid man!

I'm surprised you have the audacity to say that.

Either way, he is entitled to his opinion and he should be allowed to express himself IMO.

It appears his blog has now been blocked by MICT.

How many websites is that blocked this week now? 10,000? 15,000?

As with all these things a gossip version will go round. Probably not exactly what Giles said but ....

As to expressing himself. I can honestly say that if he were to say some of that that in any of the villages I go to, he would have been given a beating pretty quickly, so I doubt he would express it in Thailand not even in a poor village.

In the meantime, what do the red shirts do now? They have just been labelled as a republican movement or at least the ones organised by the Bangkok based ideologues have. Do they denounce old Giles or do they say nothing or do they stick with him or do they split even further?

[SmugFarangBore]

As with all these things a gossip version will go round. Probably not exactly what Giles said but ....

As to expressing himself. I can honestly say that if he were to say some of that that in any of the villages I go to, he would have been given a beating pretty quickly, so I doubt he would express it in Thailand not even in a poor village.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean his right to express it should be restricted. IMO, of course.

[hammered]

As with all these things a gossip version will go round. Probably not exactly what Giles said but ....

As to expressing himself. I can honestly say that if he were to say some of that that in any of the villages I go to, he would have been given a beating pretty quickly, so I doubt he would express it in Thailand not even in a poor village.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean his right to express it should be restricted. IMO, of course.

The question is though will the red shirts amplify it, ignore it, denounce it or split over it.

[jdinasia]

As with all these things a gossip version will go round. Probably not exactly what Giles said but ....

As to expressing himself. I can honestly say that if he were to say some of that that in any of the villages I go to, he would have been given a beating pretty quickly, so I doubt he would express it in Thailand not even in a poor village.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean his right to express it should be restricted. IMO, of course.

The question is though will the red shirts amplify it, ignore it, denounce it or split over it.

You mean split MORE, don't you?

[hammered]

As with all these things a gossip version will go round. Probably not exactly what Giles said but ....

As to expressing himself. I can honestly say that if he were to say some of that that in any of the villages I go to, he would have been given a beating pretty quickly, so I doubt he would express it in Thailand not even in a poor village.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean his right to express it should be restricted. IMO, of course.

The question is though will the red shirts amplify it, ignore it, denounce it or split over it.

You mean split MORE, don't you?

I stand corrected. Yes of course a number of red provincial groups have already split form center

[TAWP]

Thaksin over Abhisit for me, but out of choice i would like to see a Prime Minister who focuses on bridging the huge poverty gap here. It is absolutely criminal. You need someone in power who is from a working mans background so to speak, he/she must appreciate the lives of those who work 14 hr days for 5-7 thousand baht per month trying to support a wife and kid.

I want to see a leader that slows down the country's quest for hurried globalisation and realises that taking care of the poverty problem (low minimum wage etc) is fundamental to future stability when achieving world integration and globalised economic ideals.

I have not heard Abhisit talk of any policy that will help the 10% of people living below the poverty line.

cheers

Pischposh, we are on the other side of the looking glass here. The more globalization Thailand can align itself to the better. Only backwards isolationists would argue that globalization doesn't help the poor in a receiving country if done right.

[Plus]

Giles has no idea, or doesn't care, how his republican agenda can really split the country. He has no idea how he would deal with tens of millions of people who won't even listen to his arguments. What's he going to do? Purge them in the name of freedom?

He is an idiot with no foresight whatsoever.

His manifest is political, not academic one, he uses very strong, offensive language, offensive to millions of Thais, offensive to their deepest and most profound feelings. Provocations like this have no place in Thai society as we know it.

[jumnien]

Giles has no idea, or doesn't care, how his republican agenda can really split the country. He has no idea how he would deal with tens of millions of people who won't even listen to his arguments. What's he going to do? Purge them in the name of freedom?

He is an idiot with no foresight whatsoever.

His manifest is political, not academic one, he uses very strong, offensive language, offensive to millions of Thais, offensive to their deepest and most profound feelings. Provocations like this have no place in Thai society as we know it.

You mean Thai society as we used to know it; all evolves, all changes... impermanence, it's actually a concept deeply ingrained in the Siamese spirit.

[sriracha john]

Giles has no idea, or doesn't care, how his republican agenda can really split the country. He has no idea how he would deal with tens of millions of people who won't even listen to his arguments. What's he going to do? Purge them in the name of freedom?

He is an idiot with no foresight whatsoever.

His manifest is political, not academic one, he uses very strong, offensive language, offensive to millions of Thais, offensive to their deepest and most profound feelings. Provocations like this have no place in Thai society as we know it.

The manifesto is a very significant ratcheting up of the words from his book and as hammered says would be met with extreme prejudice (eg violence) by a huge number of Thais.

He has succinctly cut off all hopes of ever returning physically to Thailand for the foreseeable future. He has "burnt a huge bridge" to his homeland. If that is what he intended, then go for it...afterall he is a British citizen as well apparently. I just hope he's content with not returning and staying for a long, long, long time in UK. The pitiful handful of Thais that agree with him will have absolutely no chance of fulfilling his platform.

[ballpoint]

Giles has no idea, or doesn't care, how his republican agenda can really split the country. He has no idea how he would deal with tens of millions of people who won't even listen to his arguments. What's he going to do? Purge them in the name of freedom?

He is an idiot with no foresight whatsoever.

His manifest is political, not academic one, he uses very strong, offensive language, offensive to millions of Thais, offensive to their deepest and most profound feelings. Provocations like this have no place in Thai society as we know it.

The manifesto is a very significant ratcheting up of the words from his book and as hammered says would be met with extreme prejudice (eg violence) by a huge number of Thais.

He has succinctly cut off all hopes of ever returning physically to Thailand for the foreseeable future. He has "burnt a huge bridge" to his homeland. If that is what he intended, then go for it...afterall he is a British citizen as well apparently. I just hope he's content with not returning and staying for a long, long, long time in UK. The pitiful handful of Thais that agree with him will have absolutely no chance of fulfilling his platform.

Add to that the even more pitiful farangs who also agree with him.

[jdinasia]

Giles has no idea, or doesn't care, how his republican agenda can really split the country. He has no idea how he would deal with tens of millions of people who won't even listen to his arguments. What's he going to do? Purge them in the name of freedom?

He is an idiot with no foresight whatsoever.

His manifest is political, not academic one, he uses very strong, offensive language, offensive to millions of Thais, offensive to their deepest and most profound feelings. Provocations like this have no place in Thai society as we know it.

The manifesto is a very significant ratcheting up of the words from his book and as hammered says would be met with extreme prejudice (eg violence) by a huge number of Thais.

He has succinctly cut off all hopes of ever returning physically to Thailand for the foreseeable future. He has "burnt a huge bridge" to his homeland. If that is what he intended, then go for it...afterall he is a British citizen as well apparently. I just hope he's content with not returning and staying for a long, long, long time in UK. The pitiful handful of Thais that agree with him will have absolutely no chance of fulfilling his platform.

Add to that the even more pitiful farangs who also agree with him.

It would appear that Giles IS indeed through with Thailand for the foreseeable future. I would guess he is hoping to land some lecturer spot at some liberal Uni in the UK or US where they know nothing about Thailand and only look at a coup that was timely and well done but doesn't fit their model of democracy.

[geriatrickid]

Giles has no idea, or doesn't care, how his republican agenda can really split the country. He has no idea how he would deal with tens of millions of people who won't even listen to his arguments. What's he going to do? Purge them in the name of freedom?

He is an idiot with no foresight whatsoever.

His manifest is political, not academic one, he uses very strong, offensive language, offensive to millions of Thais, offensive to their deepest and most profound feelings. Provocations like this have no place in Thai society as we know it.

Millions disagree with whatever positions any government has. One need only witness the red shirts vs. the yellow shirts in Thailand to see that. Neither red shirt nor yellow shirt has much interest in listening. The same can be said about any country when there are views that are opposed by a segment of the population. It has played out in the USA, the UK, Russia etc. However, that is no reason to force someone into exile or to crush a dissenting opinion. If one believes in the legitimacy of one's political position, there should not be any fear in having an exchange on the subject with those that disagree. It seems to me that there are a great many insecure people in power that are reacting in fear.

Obviously you do not agree with the professor. Super, but that's your opinion. Unlike those that engage in profiteering or bribery, he is trying to contribute, and yet he is condemned. When you deny the avenue of expression of views, you force people into alternative modes that are often violent. He has not advocated violence and his language reflects the growing frustration of many. The implications of this combined with the ongoing saga of Thaksin is going to come back and bite the elite on their plump posteriors. You cannot keep a lid on people's frustrations.Sooner or later they bubble up in unpleasant ways. This is certainly going to be interesting to watch to see how the academic world reacts. I anticipate that the professor's cause will be taken up by various political and student groups around the world. The situation has been mishandled and plays into Thaksin's hand. The military and its lackeys have raised Giles into martyr status.

[SmugFarangBore]

The pitiful handful of Thais that agree with him will have absolutely no chance of fulfilling his platform.

Disagree.

It almost happened in the 30's.

Could easily swing that way again in the future.

Nothing pitiful about having a brain and using it to have your own opinion either.

Edited February 10, 2009 by SmugFarangBore

[sriracha john]

The pitiful handful of Thais that agree with him will have absolutely no chance of fulfilling his platform.

Disagree.

It almost happened in the 30's.

Could easily swing that way again in the future.

In 2009, it means going against the steadfast beliefs of easily 95% of the population (if not even significantly higher).

This far, far transcends any red shirt versus yellow shirt. This goes to the very core of the Thai psyche...

Giles grossly inappropriate and horrendously insulting words deeply offends all but the aforementioned pitiful handful of Thais.

Edited February 10, 2009 by sriracha john

[SmugFarangBore]

In 2009, it means going against the steadfast beliefs of easily 95% of the population (if not even significantly higher).

This far, far transcends any red shirt versus yellow shirt. This goes to the very core of the Thai psyche...

Giles grossly inappropriate and horrendously insulting words deeply offends all but the aforementioned pitiful handful of Thais. There are no "millions who agree" with it... far, far from it.

As I alluded to, those "steadfast beliefs" didn't exist 70 years ago and probably won't in the future.

If there aren't many people who agree with his views, or even could agree with those views, and those beliefs are so steadfast as you put it, amongst so many of the population, then why the need for all these draconian laws and media censorship?

[ballpoint]

The pitiful handful of Thais that agree with him will have absolutely no chance of fulfilling his platform.

Disagree.

It almost happened in the 30's.

Could easily swing that way again in the future.

Nothing pitiful about having a brain and using it to have your own opinion either.

Unfortunately, I can also see a time when it could happen again. That's no reason to look forward to it though, as you seem to be so gleefully doing so. Do you really think that with a weakened "master" the military will simply fade away and allow the people to take control of the country? You need to wake up. Sure, a lot of people will protest, in any colour shirt they want, but a lot of people will then be killed. Something's rotten in the state of Thai politics, but you only need to look to our neighbours in the west to see that things could get a whole lot more so.

[sriracha john]

In 2009, it means going against the steadfast beliefs of easily 95% of the population (if not even significantly higher).

This far, far transcends any red shirt versus yellow shirt. This goes to the very core of the Thai psyche...

Giles grossly inappropriate and horrendously insulting words deeply offends all but the aforementioned pitiful handful of Thais. There are no "millions who agree" with it... far, far from it.

As I alluded to, those "steadfast beliefs" didn't exist 70 years ago and probably won't in the future.

If there aren't many people who agree with his views, or even could agree with those views, and those beliefs are so steadfast as you put it, amongst so many of the population, then why the need for all these draconian laws and media censorship?

Because the words he uses are so repugnant, offensive, and shockingly repulsive to the vast majority of the population and stoke such a vehement and deeply emotional response. It's not unlike why pedophile threads are closed on here.

[animatic]

Makes no difference if this attitude existed more than 70 years ago,

it exists now and that is 3 generations on. It is installed completely.

Starting as an artificial construct or not, it is now an edifice.

His words, may have some basis in theoretical fact, but in on the ground fact,

he is pissing on too many average Thai's shoe laces by HOW he states it.

Not that he doesn't want things better for them, his methods are just way over the top.

Abuse of certain laws for power politics is nothing new world wide,

but this instance is not useful for the better ends of the country.

Some seem to state it is Abhisit behind all this, or even others of higher stature,

but I doubt that in EITHER case. Not plausible.

There are more than enough upwardly mobile players looking to make a name,

and a notch up the kow tow rungs by using the law to harass any dissenting voices.

Makes no difference if the voice is a real danger or not, these 'functionaries',

need a scapegoat and stepping stone to their own personal greatness,

and so use the law to push down others to raise themselves.

There is no doubt a nice warm and oily corner of hel_l for these types.

K. Giles latest posts do actually sound dangerously provocative in these troubled times;

wasn't so long ago here that arch-socialists and those to the left of them were just 'disappeared'...

Whether there is a veritas in his speech or not, too much sounds fueled by

vino filled nights of ill considered argument and philosophical resentment.

His anger is palatable like rancid butter on stale bread.

From anger is not the place to write philosophy to heal lives and nations

Edited February 11, 2009 by animatic

[Plus]

Obviously you do not agree with the professor. Super, but that's your opinion. Unlike those that engage in profiteering or bribery, he is trying to contribute, and yet he is condemned. When you deny the avenue of expression of views, you force people into alternative modes that are often violent. He has not advocated violence and his language reflects the growing frustration of many.

So far I'm not interested in what exactly he is trying to say, I'm just saying that his manifesto is deeply offensive to tens of millions of Thais. That's just stupid way of presenting your cause.

And think a bit about growing "frustration of many". It's frustration with tens of millions of their fellow citizens and their way of life, their way of life that they are not going to change just to please a few dissidents.

he is trying to contribute

With his latest salvo he is only trying to offend.

If there aren't many people who agree with his views, or even could agree with those views, and those beliefs are so steadfast as you put it, amongst so many of the population, then why the need for all these draconian laws and media censorship?

Two reasons - it's a sensitive issue that is really disturbing to vast majority of Thais. Remember the guy who destroyed Erawan Shrine - he was lynched on the spot and that was basically the end of it. Idiots like Giles might provoke exactly the same reactions.

Second reason is country's identity. Like it or not, but it's the reality that cannot be replaced. Generations of people have grown that way, it can't be undone by publishing stupid, provocative manifestos. It can't (and won't) be replaced by Giles communism. He accuses the "elites" for perpetuating this artificially constructed national identity (like people said, it didn't exist a century ago, Thailand was very different then), but has no qualms about converting people to his utopia instead. Thanks but no thanks.

Eventually Thailand will change, again, and it will happen naturally, hopefully without bloodshed and communist or Khmer Rouge style re-education.

Thailand has never had French style revolutions or civil wars, and I hope it stays that way, and if raving lunatics like Giles need to be kept out of a picture for a while, it's a small price to pay. There's no freedom to offend certain persons and institutions here, that's they way this country lives, that's the way it is, like it or not.

[Xangsamhua]

Many westerners would find Giles Ungpakorn's manifesto a legitimate expression of his personal views, whether they agree with them or not and whether or not they think they are rooted in in a considered analysis of and prognosis for Thai society or, rather, in Giles's personal angst as a member of a privileged family seeking validation through advocacy of grassroots democracy combined with centrist state welfarism. However, I doubt that they will be met with the same tolerance by most Thai people.

It is evident that many Thai people are aware of the fault lines in Thai society and its institutions, but I suspect few will go very far with Giles Ungpakorn in his two- or three-stage platform: (1) democratic and transparent political and judicial structures; (2) republican form of government; (3) welfarism and socialism. He laces these desired outcomes with traces of grassroots democracy and perhaps a touch of anarchism. The manifesto is not so much a platform as a dream. It reminded me a little of the famous one written by Marx and Engels in 1848, beginning with "A spectre is haunting Europe, the spectre of ..."

In Giles's vision it seems to be a spectre of ... Giles (!!).

[Journalist]

Two reasons - it's a sensitive issue that is really disturbing to vast majority of Thais.

Thats right. There are issues that societies can't handle collectively. Even if one could discuss it comfortably one-on-one with a person, once thrown into the public arena, the crowd finds the taboo very powerful and compelling.

Eg: just try going on to the Daily Mail website and arguing in favour of Garry Glitter being allowed to live his life in peace. Your comment would get lots of red arrows (that Forum's way of signalling disapproval)

[geriatrickid]

Because the words he uses are so repugnant, offensive, and shockingly repulsive to the vast majority of the population and stoke such a vehement and deeply emotional response. It's not unlike why pedophile threads are closed on here.

Alluding to a pedophile thread is a cheap shot. You disagree with his words, fine, that's your view but don't even try to drag the fellow into the mud. You do not speak for the majority of Thais, particularly those under the age of 30. If you know anything about Thais, then you know that what they think and what they say is often vastly different.

Rather than relying on your interpretation, I recommend that people read the document for themselves and make their own conclusions. I saw no preaching of hatred or violence. No call to political unrest, just a request for the respect of others. I'd say the treatise reflects a great deal of sentiment often stated on the TV boards. Galileo was condemned as a heretic in his day. So was Martin Luther. Look where their ideas ended up.

You would do well to learn the lessons of SE Asia. When you repress the people, ban ideas and free speech and condemn legitimate questions, you sow the seeds of unrest.

Edited February 11, 2009 by geriatrickid

[stumonster]

now there is a medium which can allow most to see things that are published - things are not so easy to suppress as in the past.

many will read this to find out what the fuss is about

[davejonesbkk]

In 2009, it means going against the steadfast beliefs of easily 95% of the population (if not even significantly higher).

This far, far transcends any red shirt versus yellow shirt. This goes to the very core of the Thai psyche...

Giles grossly inappropriate and horrendously insulting words deeply offends all but the aforementioned pitiful handful of Thais. There are no "millions who agree" with it... far, far from it.

As I alluded to, those "steadfast beliefs" didn't exist 70 years ago and probably won't in the future.

If there aren't many people who agree with his views, or even could agree with those views, and those beliefs are so steadfast as you put it, amongst so many of the population, then why the need for all these draconian laws and media censorship?

Because the words he uses are so repugnant, offensive, and shockingly repulsive to the vast majority of the population and stoke such a vehement and deeply emotional response. It's not unlike why pedophile threads are closed on here.

Good. It's about time someone came out and said these things. Thai people are constantly trying to hide away from the truth, so what if it's not pretty, stand up and take it like a real strong nation does. If 95% of the people are against what he says then fine, but I have a feeling that a manifesto like this will actually get some people THINKING (yes that's right thinking) and that is why the gov, courts etc are so worried by this guy....

[jdinasia]

If you feel so strongly about it Geriatrikid --- feel free to print up hundreds of copies and distribute them. May I suggest starting at the police station in Phuket?