Why A Non Thai Can Never Integrate In Thailand

[thaiwanderer]

in this respect you do as its thai 'by birth'

[jbowman1993]

in this respect you do as its thai 'by birth'

Being Thai by birth does not mean you have to be born in Thailand. Two Thai nationals living abroad can secure citizenship for a newborn child, and they easily meet that qualification. Again, this thread is complete bs, because the OP's assertion is wrong. Lets let it die a peaceful death.

[geriatrickid]

From the constitution:-

(1) being of Thai nationality by birth;

What is your source? The ability to become part of a foreign country's government, judiciary, executive etc. is not a human right by any stretch of the imagination.

Indeed the same applies to even the ability to visit a foreign contry.

The world is not one country. There is such a thing as national sovereignty and self determination.

Well, I did give my source in the original post. Source: http://www.ipu.org/english/home.htm

However, you also confirm it as per the above. My citation is the Electoral Law as passed October 16, 2007. Your Constitution Act was passed on 20 August 2007. I didn't invent the deaf and dumb part. It is as submitted by Thailand to the International Parliamentary Union as cited.

Your logic is shaky. The issue is not the right to a position, but the right to equal opportunity, to run in an election. Denying someone the right to participate on the basis of National Origin, is an infringement of basic human rights. This isn't about visiting a country, but of the denial of a civil right to a person holding citizenship. Don't you think there is something fundamentally wrong about having two types of citizens, once the nationality requirements are met?

This whole thread is bullsh*t, because the OP's premise is wrong. This is taken from the 2007 Thai Constitution - no deaf or dumb clause. Just a whole lot of hot air from the OP.

I provided my source, the Electoral law of Thailand as shown. Is the Electoral Law ass submitted by Thailand to the IPU wrong? Hot air? Nope. I take it you are all in favour of 2nd class standing.

Also, if you want to work for mI5 in Uk, you must be a national and renounce other citizenships.

Uhh, you didn't make your point. There is no national origin requirement. If someone was born in India and passed the background checks he or she would be in. Although, I think one of the requirements of UK spy agencies was that one had to be a closeted gay male.

Edited February 6, 2009 by geriatrickid

[ukrules]

Thailand; age: at least 25 years old - Thai citizenship by birth

The current Prime Minister of Thailand was born in England.

[kat]

I can't wait for someone to justify the Thai position, keeping in mind that if their home country tried to do that, there would be a human rights case before the homeland national courts.

Is your middle name "knee jerk reaction" perhaps ?

How about this example then from the cornerstone of world democracy.......

An American citizen not born in USA territory(ie: a naturalized citizen) can not run for president. You must be a natural born citizen.

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

I think you are the one having a bit of a knee-jerk here. The United State has historically been a nation of immigrants for much longer and in much broader scope than any other country on the planet. All that is necessary to become a citizen is to be born on its soil, regardless of the birthplace or status of the parents. It is incredibly reasonable and open to require natural born citizenship of even first-generation citizens as such. That is spelled out in our constitution because we have one which governs the process of running for the highest office such as president, as opposed to the UK where your monarchy basically appoints the leader of the majority party. A tad bit superficial to criticize the United States for spelling out a defacto practice everywhere else, don't you think? Oh yeah - except for this guy, no less: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Fujimori

Please show me a developed or semi-developed country that has done otherwise, and then you may have an argument rather than a reactionary diatribe.

edit added: QUOTE: "The current Prime Minister of Thailand was born in England". That is obviously because they are defining Thai citizenship by race and parents, not by where they were born. I believe someone at the highest place in Thai society was born outside of the country as well.

Edited February 6, 2009 by kat

[ClaytonSeymour]

The current Prime Minister of Thailand was born in England.

Even so, he is of Thai nationality by birth.

[David James]

The current Prime Minister of Thailand was born in England.

Even so, he is of Thai nationality by birth.

He is also British Nationality by Birth. Makes me chuckle to see a Brit being PM of Thailand.

[aussiejosh]

Like anyone with any sense would want to be involved in Thai politics anyway.... Although there is a lot to gain from it (Thaksin)

[SmugFarangBore]

Too many undesirable Farangs here already, pray be that they never put any in charge.

Who are you to decide who is "desirable" and who is not?

[Mai Krap]

You aren't Thai. And why would a Thai person even respect you when you have so little respect for your own country? Alpha males tend to dominate in their own environment. Lions don't tend to wander off out of the jungle and into the forest if you know what I mean.

Alpha male humans tent to prosper in whatever environment they live in, pass through, or relocate to as in the cases of the aforementioned Bill, or Jim Thompson, or Adoph Link, etc.

The rest tend to get whatever visa they are required to get, push their carts around Tesco Lotus whilst making sure that the the price of each item doesn't blow their daily "budget," and spend their lives waiting for the scraps/dividends paid to them by the alphas to come in on "pay day."

I don't think any of the whingers or Thailand haters actually want to just get citizenship, or become a member of parliament. What they want, and what they have long been missing IMO is their own dignity and self respect.

Jim Thompson was murdered for his troubles here, not to mention the whole saga of of him being accused of stealing many of his statues by a group of people who would have received them in his will, the ungrateful persons they were. The story of Bill H. has yet to be written and is far from over. There is also the question of his assets if he expires before he hands them off. I can foresee a very large court case there but I am no longer optimistic about this country or its future.

Its my experience that any Expat that stays here long enough will lose out. Statistically speaking your life is much more likely to end horribly here than in America or the U.K. and I'm not sure about non English speaking countries. Medicine is just a bad joke here, horribly done, and they continue to get it wrong. Recently at a brand new hospital the entire place was just a mess, the floor at Starbucks was much cleaner.

My prediction, based on 6 plus years of living here, get out now while the the getting is good. I don't believe Thailand will ever reach its potential in my lifetime and the current set of circumstance is volatile to say the least. Its a sad state of affairs but one must be drunk on alcohol, nationalism, or sex to believe anything else.

[kiakaha]

Its my experience that any Expat that stays here long enough will lose out.

My prediction, based on 6 plus years of living here, get out now while the the getting is good.

only 6 years ? you're just a baby

what are you other thai related qualifications that lead you to this nihilistic point of view, because I have been working here more than twice your tenure and work with other foreigners who've been here 20, 30 years..and are all very much "winning" , so to speak.

[bkkjames]

You aren't Thai. And why would a Thai person even respect you when you have so little respect for your own country? Alpha males tend to dominate in their own environment. Lions don't tend to wander off out of the jungle and into the forest if you know what I mean.

Alpha male humans tent to prosper in whatever environment they live in, pass through, or relocate to as in the cases of the aforementioned Bill, or Jim Thompson, or Adoph Link, etc.

The rest tend to get whatever visa they are required to get, push their carts around Tesco Lotus whilst making sure that the the price of each item doesn't blow their daily "budget," and spend their lives waiting for the scraps/dividends paid to them by the alphas to come in on "pay day."

I don't think any of the whingers or Thailand haters actually want to just get citizenship, or become a member of parliament. What they want, and what they have long been missing IMO is their own dignity and self respect.

Jim Thompson was murdered for his troubles here, not to mention the whole saga of of him being accused of stealing many of his statues by a group of people who would have received them in his will, the ungrateful persons they were. The story of Bill H. has yet to be written and is far from over. There is also the question of his assets if he expires before he hands them off. I can foresee a very large court case there but I am no longer optimistic about this country or its future.

Its my experience that any Expat that stays here long enough will lose out. Statistically speaking your life is much more likely to end horribly here than in America or the U.K. and I'm not sure about non English speaking countries. Medicine is just a bad joke here, horribly done, and they continue to get it wrong. Recently at a brand new hospital the entire place was just a mess, the floor at Starbucks was much cleaner.

My prediction, based on 6 plus years of living here, get out now while the the getting is good. I don't believe Thailand will ever reach its potential in my lifetime and the current set of circumstance is volatile to say the least. Its a sad state of affairs but one must be drunk on alcohol, nationalism, or sex to believe anything else.

That's alot to chew on, but let me take a stab at paragraph two and the horrible death syndrom. To clarify, are you saying we have a better chance of being shot here than in the USA? And how about the good old health insurance situation in the States as well?

Regarding paragraph 3. Your first line is not a prediction but a recommendation. Comparing it once again to the USA, your last sentence rings very true - the land of the free and home of the brave.

Thailand, like all countries, has its issues. Hopefully, more people with your pessimistic outlook on life do run for the nearest exit because the one's that stay and ride out any bumps in the road, will be better off. The world is full of critics and complainers who do nothing but run and hide at the first sign of a river too wide.

For the record, I am not drunk yet, but see me in 3 hours and that may change and I may agree with you.

[Maizefarmer]

I was reading my RSS and was surprised to see a story coming out of Taiwan

TAIPEI (Reuters) – An American-born caucasian is running for Taiwan's parliament next month, a first for the island, to fill a seat. Robin Winkler, a Taipei-based lawyer, environmental activist and Taiwan citizen since 2003, would be the first caucasian to run for parliament in Taiwan, which is 98 percent ethnic Chinese and 2 percent aboriginal. Any Taiwan citizen can run for parliament regardless of birthplace, an election official said. Winkler, a fluent Chinese speaker who has lived in Taiwan since 1977 and became a local citizen in 2003, renouncing his U.S. nationality, said he would run in the March 28 election either with Taiwan's Green Party or on his own.

Ok, that's something, but it shows that if one respects local laws and adapts, one can become part of the process. So I had a look and wondered if a farang that had integrated into Thailand, taking Thai citizenship, could ever aspire to be part of the country and to contribute to the government? After all, the definitive statement of acceptance is if an immigrant is allowed to run for public office. I had a look at the law in Thailand; age: at least 25 years old - Thai citizenship by birth

The law also makes a specific reference to "deaf and dumb persons". In the old days, that ignorant expression referred to the deaf and mute.

Well, isn't that special. One has to be Thai by birth to have a chance at running for the house of Representatives. A flagrant denial of human rights if ever there was one, as it discriminates on the basis of national origin. It also discriminates against those with a disability that can be adapted for. A quick comparison to other countries shows that Thailand is in the minority on this.

Philippines: age: 18 years - Philippine citizenship

Vietnam: age: 21 years - Vietnamese citizenship

Cambodia: age: 25 years - Cambodian citizenship

China: age: 18 years - Chinese citizenship

Laos: - age: 21 years - Lao citizenship

Burma: No representation

Malaysia: age: 21 years - Malaysian citizenship

Source: http://www.ipu.org/english/home.htm

That to me says it all. If you are not born in Thailand or that if you are hearing and voice impaired, you can not belong, nor will you ever be allowed to belong. Such a position then becomes ingrained in everything the government does in respect to foreigners that immigrate. It then trickles down into the attitudes extended to expats.

No matter how much the apologists want to joke it off or say who wants to run for office anyway (I'm also waiting for the deaf and dumb comments about the politicos), this really is an affront. The eligibility law is blatant discrimination. If a foreigner, no matter how fluent in Thai, no matter how long residing in Thailand, no matter how loyal and no matter how adapted, is denied this basic civil right, what does it say about the country? The message I take away, is that in the eyes of Thailand, no matter how good a citizen you are, you are not good enough. To say otherwise is to deny the reality.

I can't wait for someone to justify the Thai position, keeping in mind that if their home country tried to do that, there would be a human rights case before the homeland national courts.

Justify the Thai position? mmmmmm ......... not sure it needs any jusitification, but it easily understood.

Many of the countries you highlight above stand where they do today from a social perspective because of the role colonial influence has had on their development. Not so with Thailand - it was never colonised, and therein lies a large part of the explination to its social attitudes.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[Heng]

You aren't Thai. And why would a Thai person even respect you when you have so little respect for your own country? Alpha males tend to dominate in their own environment. Lions don't tend to wander off out of the jungle and into the forest if you know what I mean.

Alpha male humans tent to prosper in whatever environment they live in, pass through, or relocate to as in the cases of the aforementioned Bill, or Jim Thompson, or Adoph Link, etc.

The rest tend to get whatever visa they are required to get, push their carts around Tesco Lotus whilst making sure that the the price of each item doesn't blow their daily "budget," and spend their lives waiting for the scraps/dividends paid to them by the alphas to come in on "pay day."

I don't think any of the whingers or Thailand haters actually want to just get citizenship, or become a member of parliament. What they want, and what they have long been missing IMO is their own dignity and self respect.

Jim Thompson was murdered for his troubles here, not to mention the whole saga of of him being accused of stealing many of his statues by a group of people who would have received them in his will, the ungrateful persons they were. The story of Bill H. has yet to be written and is far from over. There is also the question of his assets if he expires before he hands them off. I can foresee a very large court case there but I am no longer optimistic about this country or its future.

Its my experience that any Expat that stays here long enough will lose out. Statistically speaking your life is much more likely to end horribly here than in America or the U.K. and I'm not sure about non English speaking countries. Medicine is just a bad joke here, horribly done, and they continue to get it wrong. Recently at a brand new hospital the entire place was just a mess, the floor at Starbucks was much cleaner.

My prediction, based on 6 plus years of living here, get out now while the the getting is good. I don't believe Thailand will ever reach its potential in my lifetime and the current set of circumstance is volatile to say the least. Its a sad state of affairs but one must be drunk on alcohol, nationalism, or sex to believe anything else.

Of course, everyone wants to bring down an alpha because everyone apart from the "I'll settle for this" crowd wants their spot. There's no rule that says alphas are permanently at their relative position on the food chain. Few would argue that the Techapaibuls aren't a family of alphas but they too fell out of ranks of the super elite into the plain jane anonymous elite.

It's completely normal to rationalize that quitting or losing out is a norm. It puts one's mind at ease and makes life's inevitable failures and setbacks more palatable. The same goes for framing one's previous goals (in this case, one might assume it to be living and possibly propering in a particular country on a long term basis) as substandard. It makes one feel better. "It's for the best that you lost the Superbowl, Kurt, because wearing more than one championship ring at a time is soooo pretentious."

As for your prediction, it is in fact an excellent one for many people. As the food chain anywhere is structured, there is only so much room at the top... and in many environments, the space near the bottom can be relatively worse than the bottom in other places.

[geriatrickid]

Justify the Thai position? mmmmmm ......... not sure it needs any jusitification, but it easily understood.

Many of the countries you highlight above stand where they do today from a social perspective because of the role colonial influence has had on their development. Not so with Thailand - it was never colonised, and therein lies a large part of the explination to its social attitudes.

I believe your explanation is overlooks the historical record. For example;

Myth about Thailand: There is a long-standing myth that Thailand was never colonized. Factually speaking, though, Siam was being squeezed from the west by the British and from the east by the French (Barton 58). Siam had to give up large chunks of land in exchange for keeping its territorial integrity. Only the middle core of Siam was unoccupied (Barton 58).

Source: Rey Ty, Center for Southeast Asian Studies,Northern Illinois University

One not be in chains to be in bondage. If one looks at the last century, one sees;

-the French land grabs in Thailand and the willingness to give up land by Thailand.

- the collaboration with the Japanese during WWII. By cooperating, Thailand was allowed to function like Vichy France. Independent in name only.

- Economic influence during the Vietnam war, with the US government pouring in billions to access military bases, staging areas and R&R zones. One could argue the impact of that economic colonization id far more damage than the European land grabs.

Hence, I disagree with the view that the absence of a formal colonial overseer is responsible. However, I do see your point that the need to resist foreign influences is what may have furthered the view to protect "Thailand". Good point and explains some of it, but c'mon, it's 2009 and surely the country can demonstrate a bit less insecurity towards its naturalized citizens. Vietnam had a horrible colonial past including attempts by China to dominate and yet Vietnam has come to grips with that history and has looked to the future.

[wolf5370]

My kids are Thai by Birth - though both born in the UK, both have very white skin, both have English as their first/primary language and both have an English dad. Both my kids and their mum have Thai passports (as well as British ones).

Any of my family, except me, could stand for office.

If I was granted citizenship, then I should have the right to stand too (and so should Arnie for President in the USA) - you are either saying 'this person is welcome to become a National' - and give all the rights and commitments that comes along with it - or you don't. If you don't then they are not a National, a citizen, but some kind of super-resident. Simple as that IMO.

However, Thailand is what Thailand is, and Thailand does what Thailand does. It ain't gonna change 'cos I think its poor form, now is it?

[thaiwanderer]

intergartion can end in tears have a look at Constantine Phaulkon

[thaiwanderer]

Corrado Feroci

[thaiwanderer]

Anna Lenowens

[thaiwanderer]

Bill Heinecke

[thaiwanderer]

William Tilleke

[thaiwanderer]

Dr. Dan Bradley

[thaiwanderer]

General Tan U Yee

Edited February 6, 2009 by thaiwanderer

[thaiwanderer]

Alexander MacDonald

[thaiwanderer]

Tan Sia Sae

[thaiwanderer]

Tan Kae Lim

[Mai Krap]

Its my experience that any Expat that stays here long enough will lose out.

My prediction, based on 6 plus years of living here, get out now while the the getting is good.

only 6 years ? you're just a baby

what are you other thai related qualifications that lead you to this nihilistic point of view, because I have been working here more than twice your tenure and work with other foreigners who've been here 20, 30 years..and are all very much "winning" , so to speak.

What are you calling Winning? Ive had a pretty good adventure over here and always planned to go back to America in a few years. I was in a pretty serious business deal three days before the Airport got over ran with idiots which collapsed the deal and put it back to ground zero after a couple years work getting the people together. The same deal I can do in America in a week it takes two years to do here, is that winning? The paperwork nightmare over here is just ridiculous, try to do anything with honor and keep it legal and your in for a world of mental anguish.

If my goal in life was simple and I was happy to sit and drink beer every evening with a bunch of drunks and I was to stupid to understand how terrible the health care system is here life would be great. I have two places in America, and one house in Thailand. Both places in America have ultimate privacy and security, one offers helicopter flights for emergencies and the other one has first class emergency services with helicopters available if needed, all covered by insurance 100%.

My house in Thailand, a first class home in a exclusive gated community offers idiotic security guards who are to old to fight off a teenage school girl. They spend their days and nights riding bicycles around and drinking cheep whiskey. In case of Emergency a couple truckloads of baffoons will show up, more than likely get into a fight, throw you in the back of a truck and if they can, they will empty your pockets of money and your neck of gold if your silly enough to wear gold. Then half arsed doctors will take wild guesses about your condition and if you live it will be because you were going to live without the hospital anyway and your bill will end up with all kinds of charges for services and medications you never saw or received. The staff at the hospital, to simple to figure out basic paperwork will refuse to accept your insurance forcing you to go to their office in person and pay with cash or a credit card and then do all the paperwork to submit your own bill to insurance and wait a year to get your money refunded.

Dont bother with driving, not to mention the expense of a vehicle, its constantly being pulled over for no paticular reason and having hands go out for payments that becomes a bother. One of my favorite was when the cop reached for money and I stuck my hand out the window and shook his hand, said thanks, and drove off leaving him standing there. If you do have a accident, well, there's a 99% chance you will have to pay and your insurance will do everything they can to get out of doing anything. Having damage done to one of my trucks by teenagers who I caught and got their names and addresses the police offered me this advice, "We never go over there, its a bad neighborhood, the people are very bad there" but the funny thing was, its a beautiful place beside a nice lake but there is a 6 square block slum down a small ally that cannot be seen from where I parked under a beautiful shady tree.

Anyone who enjoys playing a game where the goals are constantly moved and the winner is always predetermined by his ability to influence with illegal payoffs, enjoy the ride. I have had a good run, had some great experiences and will spend the rest of my life looking back to my life in Thailand before the internet when I lived in some pretty wild and untouched by western culture areas. For me its just onto the next adventure as I have done everything I wanted to do here and its time to move on and take care of business. Because I'm leaving with more than I had when I arrived, maybe I'm a winner after all!

Back on topic, Trink said it best, "If you want leave Thailand with a little money, you should bring a lot when you come" or something along those lines. The absolute majority of Farang who fancy themselves as Thai usually end up getting a heck of a wake up call in the end if they don't end up dead from drink, stress, or violence. Personally I don't have anything good to say about what I believe will happen here over the next two years but there will most assuredly be bad times a coming and no Expats will be running for governor anytime soon. Just makes me wonder, how many Thai Americans are in office in the States? Certainly there are plenty of Thai Americans running successful businesses there.

[Svenn]

Why are so many farangs hel_l-bent on integrating with other Thais?? embrace your difference, don't try to hide it.... nothing more lame than a chinese guy who immigrates to a western country and becomes a christian and then a tax accountant right?? wouldn't we all prefer to see him wearing a confucian gown and buidling beautiful buddhist temples? Just so, be the unique farang and be proud of your culture, let the thais be proud of their's... something a bit distasteful and self-deprecating about seeing a farang spouting out fluent thai, playing the khene, or wearing thai costumes at their marriage- but that's just me

[wolf5370]

...Back on topic, Trink said it best, "If you want leave Thailand with a little money, you should bring a lot when you come" or something along those lines. ...

I think its "The only way to leave Thailand with a small fortune is to arrive with a large one!"

Edited February 6, 2009 by wolf5370

[thaiwanderer]

or we could turn our attention to the chinese influence throughout all business and politics in thailand

i still do not accept that the ability to put yourself up for election in a public office (good luck getting votes anyhow!) has anything whatsoever to do with 'human rights' and cannot imagine what else would be considered a 'human right' if that were to be included

perhaps the abuses in the southern war and burmese boat people are of lesser importance than you wanting to feel accepted?

Edited February 6, 2009 by thaiwanderer