An Act Of God?

[Darknight]

An act of God?

The sweeping devastation and intense horror wrought by the south Asia tsunami will shake the faith of many "believers". How could a God, or some other force for good, have orchestrated a natural disaster with such dreadful consequences?

Here, believers from the Hindu, Christian, Muslim and Buddhist faiths, and an atheist, explain how they have come to terms with the events in south Asia.

HINDU - RANI MOORTHY

The tsunami brings into question both personal and collective destinies for Hindus. In terms of the latter, we are born in an age of destruction, known as Kali Yuga, an age that lasts for perhaps 1,000 years. This says that we must go through a series of set-backs, obstacles, suffering, eg Aids, and a propensity for natural disasters as nature shows its malevolent side. Mankind goes through this to be renewed.

As for my personal destiny, there is no central text in Hinduism as there is in other religions so it's up to each of us to formulate our own understanding, based on the Brahman - the divine - and the belief that all of us will one day escape the endless cycle of birth and death and be returned to our maker. My belief is that I am connected to all humans and so while I grieve for those that have died in the tsunami, I don't feel sorry for them because they are part of me and part of the divine. Their deaths are a manifestation of karma, the debits and credits you amass through your series of lives.

CHRISTIAN - PAUL CHITNESS

In this litigious age we are always looking for someone to blame and in the absence of anyone else we look to blame God because it is a "natural" event. It's quite clear the world is riddled with inequality but I don't accept the idea that God is sitting up there mischievously tweaking the strings. In the case of the tsunami, we as Christians are challenged to live out our response. We know that Jesus is among us, living through this reality because he said whatever you do to your brothers and sisters, you do to me. By the same token, what you fail to do to them, you fail to do to Jesus. Until now at least, we have not been found wanting in our response. Christian churches have been among those at the forefront of the relief effort.

BUDDHIST - LAMA OLE NYDAHL

The scale of the tragedy has caused some to question their faith

We all die, sooner or later. Some have conditions for living long lives and some for short lives. That is your karma - the total effect of one's actions and conduct. What might have precipitated the tsunami was a lot of people coming together who had the karma for a short life and, to an extent, this is perhaps a reflection that these areas were over-populated.

The shifting of tectonic plates is inevitable, but fewer people in the areas affected would have led to a much smaller loss of life. When watching the TV news, reading the papers or thinking about the tsunami, we are thinking about the Buddha we like the best - perhaps the Red Buddha, the Buddha of limitless light. We do this so that when those who died in the disaster wake up from the shock of dying - we believe it takes about three days to do so - they will be sent up to the Buddha we have in mind. Buddhists think the mind is indestructible so, after a while, if one wants to and is able, they will have the choice to take rebirth in society as beings who help others.

MUSLIM - IQBAL SACRANIE

It is the teaching of Islam that it is through the will of God Almighty that this has happened but then the positive side is the way mankind has reacted. People will question why it is taking place, why the enormity of loss of human life, but it is that aspect which is beyond us and it is our firm belief that any such disaster, anything of that nature happening, is through the will of God Almighty. Allah knows best.

We certainly have the right to question. It's a time for us to really think of ourselves, our deeds, our acts, and we need to ponder over this. It's a sign that none of us are going to live for an indefinite period, therefore it is a sign for us to do something very positive. Death always takes place. When a person is born one thing guaranteed is death but what form it takes is always beyond us. People of faith need to have a very firm belief in God Almighty, that at the end of the day it is through his will and it is for the betterment of mankind at large.

ATHEIST - HANNE STINSON

Religion cannot provide an explanation for the tsunami, and while prayer for the victims may comfort those who pray, it will not provide practical help to the people whose lives have been devastated by this appalling disaster. Science can explain earthquakes and tsunamis, even if we are still unable to predict where and when they will happen. Our response to this and other disasters, as compassionate human beings and regardless of our religious or non-religious beliefs, must be to provide whatever help we can.

Faith in god does not protect people from disasters or give the victims what they need to survive and rebuild their lives. We need to accept responsibility for our fellow human beings. We need to put our efforts into practical ways of preventing disasters when we can, preparing for disasters that cannot be prevented, including investing in early warning systems for tsunamis, and helping those affected by disasters. We cannot rely on any god to solve the world's problems. We - the people of the world - are humanity's only hope.

[The_Moog]

Ravisher is touching (perhaps inadvertantly) on the 'watch on a beach' ontological theory.

Its metaphorical, (the watch playing the role of our Planet Earth). It goes something like this....

... you walk along a beach and find a watch lying on the sand. There are two explanations for it being there

The first is that it was made somewhere by a 'creator' - and placed/dropped there.

The second is that all the silica molecules in the sand somehow formed randomly to create this intricate thing.

Believers in a deity consider Number 1 to be a far more logical explanation.

There is a way of disproving this philosophical hypothesis, but i've forgotten it.

[aaaaaa]

my wife is christian, although Thai.

last night while listening to some representatives of different faith on TV , she siad they speak good and right - even though she has firm convinction that other religions than Christian are wrong because they lead not to proper goal.

however she made a good point: although some, like one muslim imam, are right in explaining such events as act of God, it is not proper to make such statements public, for the broad mass of people, like on TV. such statements should be made in front of appropriate auditory of people who shares similar opinion.

this is one of the wrongs of modern mass media - "free and democratic sharing of info to anyone"..... should discriminate ! otherwise - why censor movies etc. for violence scenes and sex etc ?

furthermore, I think the article above is wrong in its the very purpose as well as style and tone: to shaken the believes of people who has faith. it is at least disrespectfull to say those victims who do believe in some faith.

and also - except the Buddshist version, others seems to be the opinions of normal people, not any specialists of particular faith or religion. that is big wrong modern media usually does - using PROVES BY SELECTED EVIDENCES and opinions of incompetent, and if examined closely, perhaps even not so firm in their own faith people if not totally ignorant. most of people in moderned world so overwhelmed by outslaught of atheistic propaganda that even while claiming themselves as followers of particular religion, they have very vague idea , often far from real genuine deep understanding of their own faith. so it is wrong to quote them and the again - interprete their words in the style and language of mass media who ever since long time has a doubtfull reputation often compared of prostitute's reputations.

last point, my own opinion - no need to critisize people who have beliefs and neither any religion or God. those who are atheists (by the way - just another kind of belief ! in this sense not much different from others) or simply ignorant of other sort of knowledge apart from what is called "scientific knowledge" - no need to impose their opinions upon others who DO have some spiritual experience and knowledge and belief.

well, yeah - this is a huge separate subject only a little bit related here and a bit out of point of this thread....

so here I adjust my point: no need to impose one's believes/ disbelieves upon others - be it relisious or not.

if faith and religion helps some people who grieves - why not? not only money and food and other things immidietly perceived by our external senses are needed by people who suffered such disasters!

last night on English program of local TV they mentioned something like - many victims have psycological trauma and need competent mental treatment. such thing can hardly be measured in amounts of money or other material values. care and love and may be counselling - yes. and if some people get some solace in prayers and methaphisical wisdom - why try to discourage them by some dissiduations and irresponsible remarks ? let them get that solace !

and if you don't believe and feel like you can get phisically , mentally and emotionally well on your own, or by some other than religion means - say by reading scientific explanations of tsunami - - well, yes, I'd say same: why not? whatever works for you. main thing - let people have what gives them relief - within acceptable limits of course, like not causing harm to others by such their own "relief" ....

[Darknight]

well, yeah - this is a huge separate subject only a little bit related here and a bit out of point of this thread....

so here I adjust my point: no need to impose one's believes/ disbelieves upon others - be it relisious or not.

Mmm Don't see where you read the impose your religion /thoughts in this thing.

It's merely a personal explanations by members of different faiths/religions

Many people of the same religions wil have different explanations as well.

You might even find that two people of different religion have the same explanation

These are no Dogma's or theories to be underwritten or rejected ?

They are merely personal comments on the disaster, just treat them like that.

[aaaaaa]

These are no Dogma's or theories to be underwritten or rejected ?

They are merely personal comments on the disaster, just treat them like that.

good if it is so - let's keep it this way

[aaaaaa]

An act of God?

The sweeping devastation and intense horror wrought by the south Asia tsunami will shake the faith of many "believers". How could a God, or some other force for good, have orchestrated a natural disaster with such dreadful consequences?

Here, believers from the Hindu, Christian, Muslim and Buddhist faiths, and an atheist, explain how they have come to terms with the events in south Asia........

speaking of religions - interesting article below. perhpas there are some scientific or whatever explanations of described below fact, but people in need do get solace in their faith from such evidences :

------------------------------------------------------------

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...803599&sec=asia

Tsunami-defying mosques ‘prove divine intervention’

BANDA ACEH: In Indonesia's tsunami wastelands on the northern tip of Sumatra island, little remains of whole towns lost to the colossal forces that came thundering in from the ocean.

But across these battered shores, dozens of mosques still stand, their minarets glinting defiantly in the sun – a phenomenon survivors in the deeply Islamic region credit as much to divine intervention as robust architecture.

“God's invisible hands prevents the mosque's destruction,” said Mukhlis Khaeran, who saw the sea sweep away his home village of Baet near here, but leave the neighbourhood mosque relatively intact.

Mosques are an everyday sight in most of Indonesia, but especially in Aceh, credited with being one of Islam's main gateways into the archipelago of islands.

But while some spoke of “God's wrath”, hundreds turned to their mosques, in panic for shelter from the advancing tides and later for spiritual comfort in a time of desperate need.

In the village of Kaju, hundreds of homes were annihilated while the local mosque suffered only a few cracks in the walls.

“There is a saying among Acehnese that a mosque is God's house and no one can destroy it but God Himself,” said Ismail Ishak, 42, who was digging rubble from his crumbled house while searching for seven of his relatives.

In Pasi Lhok, 100 frightened people sheltering inside their mosque were spared while almost every house in the surrounding five villages was pulverised, according to chief cleric Teungku Kaoy Ali.

In Meubolah, a town which bore the full force of the tsunami, leaving at least 10,000 dead, mosques stand sentinel over a vanished town centre.

Another, less divine, explanation for the survival of the mosques is that many are built much more sturdily than most of the other structures in Aceh.

However, one mosque in Sigli was made only of wood but still survived unscathed despite all the other buildings around it being destroyed. – AFP

[britmaveric]

I don't think God has anything to do with this! It's simply nature's cyclic events that occur time to time. The earth has been around alot longer than people... just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong moment. A warning would have saved many lives - this is what we should be concentrating on in order to minimize loss of live in future natural disasters.

[aaaaaa]

here is some opinion from CHURCH OF GOD - can't say thought how much it is reliable, such prophesy....

actually provided PDF format files as well as other articles contain decent amount of scientific data as well!

Earthquakes in Prophecy

The Greatest Period of Earthquake Activity Lies Just Ahead of Us

http://www.thercg.org/google/earthquakes.html

Tsunamis – and the Message They Bring ! TSUNAMIS and the Message They Bring

Tens of thousands died in an instant—caught with little or no warning! Could this tragedy have been avoided? And will mankind heed the warning of the greatest “tsunami” yet to come?

another article:

WAVES OF DEVASTATION

What is a tsunami (pronounced soo-nah-mee)? A tsunami is a series of waves that are generated in the ocean by a sudden disturbance that vertically relocates the water column. The word tsunami is a Japanese word meaning “harbor wave.” Tsunamis have sometimes been referred to as “tidal waves,” which they are not. The tidal level is a factor in the impact that a tsunami has on a coastline. However, they are unrelated to the tide.

Another name commonly used for tsunamis is “seismic sea wave.” This can be misleading. Some tsunamis are generated from an earthquake out at sea, which would cause seismic sea waves. However, tsunamis can also be generated by undersea landslides, meteorite impact, explosions and volcanic eruptions.

What does a tsunami look like? Picture what happens when you throw a stone into a pond. It creates a series of ripples. This is what a tsunami looks like, except on a much larger scale. The waves that form can travel for thousands of miles and have enough impact to flatten a small town. The sizes of the waves are determined by the depth of the water. The wavelengths or width can be 60 to 120 miles long and travel at speeds of about 450 to 500 miles per hour.

As the tsunami approaches land, the waves slow down due to the shallow water; however, they increase in height to 50 feet or higher. Even though the waves have slowed down, they still have extraordinary energy due to the large volume of water affected.

Most tsunamis originate in the Pacific Ocean around a region of volcanoes and seismic activity that encircles a 24,000-mile area called the “Ring of Fire.” Several states and countries have been affected by tsunamis. In 1960, a tsunami was generated by an earthquake off the coast of Chile, killing 150 people in Japan. The tsunami traveled 10,000 miles in 22 hours.

Another tsunami struck Japan in 1999, with the waves ranging from 50 to 65 feet. One wave reached a height of 90 feet. Approximately 40 tsunamis have struck the Hawaiian Islands since 1819. Other states affected by tsunamis are California and Alaska. Other countries affected by them include the Philippines, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Papua-New Guinea, Indonesia, New Zealand, Peru and several other islands.

Tsunamis can take on different forms based upon the angles of the seafloor. One could be where the sea empties the harbors and looks withdrawn. Then the tsunami’s walls of water come toward the shore. Other tsunamis give no warning, and flood suddenly. Any way that a tsunami strikes is devastating. The walls of water flood the coast, collapse lighthouses, break trees like twigs and demolish homes. Many people have been killed in tsunamis. For example, in 1883, a volcano erupted in Indonesia, causing tsunamis. Approximately 36,000 people were killed, the majority of these deaths resulting from the tsunamis.

So, the next time you throw a rock in a pond and see the ripples, realize that you have just created your own mini-tsunami.

[Lioneric]

We do not blame the GOD for this ,why don't we think it 's human error.

We planet earth is a living planet,spinning everyday and active volcano,earth movement,tidal wave,wind,fire- IN Chinese I-Ching we called it Mineral,wood,water,fire and earth. These are natural movement of the planet earth but we know it but we try cover it afraid tourist ($) will go away .http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23935

we know it will come one day but we ignore it, when it already happen we strat talking to set up warning system,it's too late because many lives have been lost and it will struck only few hundred years one time. We better get the ready for next disaster which hit by metior from space which will end our civilisation, the astrology already say it will come just when?

Global warming is also a big treat, that day a big chulk of ice already break off from the south pole, it's time of all of us to be more aware to enviroment after this incident.

[Petesear]

.. "I think that god's got a sick sense of humour" .. Depeche mode

[aaaaaa]

interesting story - although can't say and don't know is it an Act of God or who....

=================================

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/stor...4723145,00.html

Indonesia Tsunami Miracle Survivor Rescued

Monday January 10, 2005 5:31 AM

AP Photo XIN203

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) - An Indonesian tsunami victim was plucked out of choppy waters by a passing cargo ship after surviving nearly two weeks at sea, officials said Monday.

Ari Afrizal, 22, was rescued late last week by the United Arab Emirates-registered AL Yamamah, which was heading to Malaysia from Muscat in Oman, said Sasheila Paramsothy, a spokeswoman for the shipping harbor Westport Malaysia.

Ari was swept out to sea when the Dec. 26 tsunami hit his home in Aceh on Sumatra island, Paramsothy said, adding that the ship crew has not provided other details or an exact date of the rescue.

He was slated to land Monday night in Westport, 25 miles west of Kuala Lumpur.

It was the third such case of an Indonesian tsunami survivor brought to Malaysia.

A Malaysian tuna ship on Dec. 30 rescued a pregnant Indonesian woman who clung to a palm tree for five days in the Indian Ocean. She was badly sun burned and bitten by fish, but her baby remained safe and she has recovered steadily in Malaysian hospital.

Another Indonesian man drifted for eight days before being spotted by a Japanese owned cargo ship. Malaysian authorities have allowed him to stay and work in Malaysia after he said the tragedy left him with ``nothing'' in his hometown.

[meom]

Ravisher is touching (perhaps inadvertantly) on the 'watch on a beach' ontological theory.

Its metaphorical, (the watch playing the role of our Planet Earth). It goes something like this....

... you walk along a beach and find a watch lying on the sand. There are two explanations for it being there

The first is that it was made somewhere by a 'creator'  - and placed/dropped there.

The second is that all the silica molecules in the sand somehow formed randomly to create this intricate thing.

Food for thought. Wonder how 'it' knew what time it was.

[meom]

Easy... when the sun is at it's highest point in the sky, it is 12 noon. 

Yes, it is a very interesting concept. In Stephen Hawkin's book 'The Blind Watchmaker' he shows how easy it is to create a Universe... If you take the shape of 'Y' and put it into a random generating program that adds new Y's all the time, you soon end up with the complex shapes of birds, trees, spiders ect. If those Y's are protines etc you soon end up with single cell animals, then multi-cell animals and so on.... My argument with Stephen Hawkin is... Without the program and without the programer... the Y would do nothing at all. This would 'seem' to prove a programer, but then the argument is, who or what made/programed the programer? We end up with an argument similar to, "Wich came first, the chicken or the egg?" 

Unless the program programed the programer and vice versa simultaneously.That probably depends the time; without time there is no first or second.

[Erwin1011]

All religious systems are "believe"-systems. Science is a believe system. Believe systems are a way to explain, to understand the complexity of our existance.

The problem with believe systems starts when they become "Rigid", Canonized and don't accept other possible explanations. Then they no longer serve to explain but to impose.

{Sofar science has to some extent avoided the pitfall of rigidity ( In most cases)}

The process of "Canonizing" is a social process. I stems from the need of safety, security, seeking support with similiar inclined others. From that moment on it becomes subject to, and infused with, other social processes. Power play etc.

Does a "creator entity" exist? I don't know, I can only work from what I understand, with the only guidance that what I understand may be proven wrong at some point of time. If we can live with that uncertainty then there may be a chance we reach a stage of civilization. If not, individually we go crazy, collectively we distroy each other.

[gburns57au]

It was an act of nature

It killed people from many religions and lifestyles. A lot of whom didnt believe in God.

BTW.....Acts of God are a favourite for insurance companies....they dont have to pay out.

[aaaaaa]

I do not see that ANY God would need to kill some 200,000 people and injure hundreds of thousands more, in a Tsunami, and destroy millions of homes, in order to save half a dozen people just to "prove" His/Her/It's power of Miracle Making. This is just pathetic sensationalism by the Church of God.

I'm not a member of any church BTW

but your statment here is also doubtfull : it implies that it was God who killed them... what if it wasn't Him ? and then - why if He doesn't need to prove anything to anyone? because if he is God - he is already God, without getting any recognition or approval or acceptance.

even people don't want to prove anything what they feel as pointless. like I don't like to prove that I'm not a camel like that rabbit in the story:

"rabbit was running in the forest and was stopped by some other animal (let's say - fox or wolfe).

- rabbit - why are you running, what's the matter !

- there is a dragon out there and it castrates all camels !

- so what? you are rabbit - not a camel !

- yeah, but I better run away, coz I don't want trying to prove that I'm not a camel ! "

I never like to prove that too. and I guess God if he exists definetely won't want to prove anything to anybody - be it his existence or his position or whatever...

I just posted that article as something interesting - some people died instantly, but some as this guy survived without any food and help alone in the open ocean ....

[aaaaaa]

All religious systems are "believe"-systems.  Science is a believe system.  Believe systems are a way to explain, to understand the complexity of our existance.

The problem with believe systems starts when they become "Rigid", Canonized and don't accept other possible explanations. Then they no longer serve to explain but to impose.

I like these few points very much.

so far I consider in this thread these are best points....

someone believes in one thing, others in other things....

even while typing post, each person participating in this discussion BELIEVES that this post will appear among others here. otherwise - won't do that at all.

and can continue the endless list of other things which one BELIEVES in daily life...

so the point is: believes based upon certain knowledge of things and personal experience. these two things also depends on one's immidiate sensory perception and acquired thru these sense experience. senses are never perfect - even be it Stephen Hawkin or Albert Einstein ... so, most of things which we can't proove by our immidiate perseption of senses we believe - and these believe we base upon other facts... like I never been to USA - but have met people who have been there or lives there.... I believe them that they not bull***ing me that USA exists....

and many many other things in this life and world....

so, some experience can be explained in scientific terms and formulas, others can't ..... for example practically most of birghtest minds even of modern science including Nobel prize winners in Biology, Physics , Chemistry etc etc till today can't come to clear explanation of one obviously existing thing: consciousness. it can't be simply explained or described in "scientific" terms

and there are many other things....

few centuries back some things were considered "methapycisical" and were mostly subjects of philosophical studies and other esoteric disciplines. somehow mostly the developments in this sort of knowledge, in contrast to what is known as physical or more precisely empiric knowledge (acquired thru immidiate sense perception) was done or at least associated with some religious institution.....

nowdays "science" dominates the sphere of human knowledge. that's all.... and it expertly covers up its many frauds for some certain reasons....

but for example here in Thailand most of books about insects, like Butterflies, beetles, moths - were written by a monk known as Bro. Amnuay Pinratana, member of some chirstian monestry here (he could be not christian - doesn't matter realy). so even though he beileves in God's existence - nevertheless he is perhaps one of main, if not only authorities in this particular area in biology here, he is a member of many scientific societies around the world, his works are used, quaoted, refered to, and even THE ONLY ever publisehd in English language on this particular subject - I mean in complete version.

so, he happens to be th only peson hwo has doen amazing work of collecting, processing and publishing this huge amount of scientific data..... his religeous believes didn't prevent him from becoming an expert in knowledge which seemingly threatens the very fact of existence of God, the central point of his religeous believes !

and I'm sure there might be many other facts given about other similar people around the world - real scholars in both science or conventional knowledge and spiritual knowledge....

that is why I like this statement: "when they become "Rigid", Canonized and don't accept other possible explanations. Then they no longer serve to explain but to impose."

very nice!

unfortunately science started to play such a role nowdays and perhaps in last couple of centuries: canonize the knowledge and impose.... sad .... this is the very same thing which earlier reliogeous members has burned Copernicus and others for - triyn to have an alternative way of believes and way of presenting and explaining knowledge ! that time religeous knowledge was considered the only true one and compulsory in education system and other kinds of knowledge - anathema. and now - most of modern education systems in the world expell sipritual knowledge in the same way - because scientific knowledge is accepted as the only real and true one.

will ever human beings learn balance and stop going from one extreme into another? why not take the best from all sorts of knowledge and wisdom? Indian authorities mentioned that they might try to learn the ways of warning system used by primitive aborigenes of Nicobar islands who shot arrows at choppers which brought them aid - because according to these authorities there might be a lot of usefull knowledge there. otherwise - how did they manage to survive while more developed humans perished ?

[aaaaaa]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4164915.stm

Tuesday, 11 January, 2005, 14:49 GMT

Temple sold to raise tsunami cash

A small Canadian Buddhist congregation has sold one of its temples to raise money for Asian tsunami victims.

The abbot of the temple in Mission, east of Vancouver, handed a cheque for 500,000 Canadian dollars (US $405,000, £219,000) to the Canadian Red Cross.

A Tibetan group will now take over the temple after purchasing it from its Vietnamese congregation.

The temple had been on the market in the hope to raise funds for building a bigger temple in Mission.

Abbot Thick Nguyen Thao told the congregation on New Year's Day that he wanted to donate the proceeds from the sale to tsunami relief.

"When the abbot made his announcement, a lot of people dropped their jaws, but after a day went by everybody began supporting him wholeheartedly," temple board member Vi Liet Nguyen told the Vancouver Sun.

The abbot said this was a gesture of gratitude to the people of Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines for receiving Vietnamese refugees, when they fled persecution by the communist regime in the 1970s.

Red Cross spokeswoman Carmen Mackenzie called this donation "phenomenal".

The group retains its main temple in the suburbs of Vancouver.

Local media report that Christian, Muslim, Jewish and aboriginal communities in the Vancouver area have also made large donations to tsunami relief funds.

[hughden]

Just a small correction, The Blind Watchmaker was written by Richard Dawkins not Stephen Hawkins. Whatever your beliefs, it is an elegant and beautifully written book which will amaze and challenge you.

[sabaijai]

Dawkins's book is itself a response to a book written in 1802 by Rev. William Paley, entitled Natural Theology, which argued that just as finding a watch would lead you to conclude that a watchmaker must exist, the complexity of living organisms proves that a Creator exists.

Not so, says Dawkins: "All appearances to the contrary, the only watchmaker in nature is the blind forces of physics, albeit deployed in a very special way... it is the blind watchmaker." [paraphrased from the Amazon description of the book]

Also contrary to the statement in the original post, not all Buddhists believe in an indestructible/eternal/infinite mind. Theravada Buddhists believe that all conditioned phenomena, including mind, are impermanent and in fact are in a constant state of flux.

[Erwin1011]

unfortunately science started to play such a role nowdays and perhaps in last couple of centuries: canonize the knowledge and impose.... sad .... this is the very same thing which earlier reliogeous members has burned Copernicus and others for - triyn to have an alternative way of believes and way of presenting and explaining knowledge ! that time religeous knowledge was considered the only true one and compulsory in education system and other kinds of knowledge - anathema. and now - most of modern education systems in the world expell sipritual knowledge in the same way - because scientific knowledge is accepted as the only real and true one.

Like I said : science has avoided the trap of canonizing to some extend. The large advantage science as a believe system has, that it has a build in defence against rigidity and therefore remains to a large degree more flexible and adaptable to new information. The difficulty is that it is becoming now so specialized and fractionalized, that for the average person it becomes extremely difficult to track and incorporate all the new elements. Scientific interpretations can become rigid when they high-jacked by more rigid believe systems to prove their case.

An additional difficulty is that because of the fragmentation, we need to rely on "summarizers", who bring the findings into perspective. that can lead to canonization too.

[Erwin1011]

The only problem is, human beings do not like to live with uncertainty. Human beings always search for 'reasons' and for a 'purpose' in Life... as if there must be a reason and a purpose... when there may be no reason or purpose at all... Life may well exist purely for it's own sake.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tend to agree with the last sentence. As for dealing with the uncertainty, I accept that each individual finds it's own reason and purpose as long he refrains from FORCING it upon me. The form this forcing takes can be very unintentional, ( i.e. a parent being cornered by the constant Why? / Why not? questions of a child) or very intentional (i.e. the insertion of religion in educational processes)

The "frame work of values / belieifs " we grow up and how strongly they were forced upon us, will largely define to what extend we will develop an "independant" mind.

Many non-religious frame works and philosophers have tried to come to grips with this (Buddhism, Lao-Tse, they just jump to my mind, but there are countless others)

That is maybe what was meant by the Pandora box of the ancient Greeks.

[igotworms]

"If God controls the land and disease,

keeps a watchful eye on me,

If he's really so dam mighty,

my problem is I can't see,

well who would wanna be?

Who would wanna be such a control freak?"

-Isaac Brock of Modest Mouse-

This whole God business is bullshit. This is an act of nature, and human kind's inability to control it. I'm sure poverty is a big factor as well. India, Sri Lanka and Indonesia are plagued by poverty. Shanty-towns built on or near a beach are not going to survive tsunamis. If similar tsunamis approached a richer region I'm sure the death toll wouldn't reach such heights.

Edited January 15, 2005 by igotworms

[penzman]

Act of God...

If God was to act, don't you think it would be to save innocent people from disasters before they happen? That would save him from listening to millions of prayers afterwards and save a whole lot of grief, misery and tears, hence more spare time to take care of the next disaster...If indeed he does exist, he is then the greatest procrastinator there ever was.

God was and is often a tool to control and manipulate the masses. Many religions were the cause of countless deaths. God is also big busine$$.

A friend died when I was in 5th grade. The teacher told me God came to get her. My reply was: "Maybe, but did he have to drive the schoolbus over her head to do so?"

[sabaijai]

The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

[aaaaaa]

....An additional difficulty is that because of the fragmentation, we need to rely on "summarizers", who bring the findings into perspective. that can lead to canonization too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

many similarities to religions ! fragmentations - similar to sectarianism in different religions (shiites and sunis in islam, GOd only knows how many branches of Christians, at leat 2 main kinds mahayana and theravada Buddhism and truly pantheonic viriety of sect in Hinduism ....)

and "Summirizers" - interpretors and commentators of main religious teachings as Bible, Qoran etc. especially modern media plays huge role in adopting the info to the end-consumer. and they've started to play a role of an authority, not only transperent device which deliveres info / knowledge. it amazes me often to see how reporters on TV speak with such an authority and confidence, and even judge and argue with real specialist in particular area. so funny!

it reminds me "Satanic verses" by Salman Rushdie when that sribe guy who was

writing down all the revelations of Mohhammad when he decided to change the message and write his own concoctions...

you've hit the point , man ! nice term : "summerizers"

there is a saying: "some simplification is worse than stealing"

[aaaaaa]

some interesting relevent to this thread videos:

Monks Ease Fear of Tsunami Ghosts in Phuket

Rituals To Make Peace With Tsunami

Studying Tsunami Elephants

[aaaaaa]

If there is a God.... Show me?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the reason of provided links wasn't neither to prove nor deny existense of God but merely to add some more information - to show the variety of opinions of multitude of people in this regard. and I think this thread as well wasn't started as a 'battlefield' of believers and atheists, but merely to show how different people cope with shock after such disaster - that some find solace in religion... and if they get such a relief in their faith - then why not let them have it? why try to discourage them by trying to prove something them won't belive anyway - that God doesn't exist ?

but such an old and trivial challenge can be defeated easily: if to follow your own logic of "if I can't see something - it doesn't exist" then same trcik can be applied here: I don't see you, that means you don't exist either. or : "if you exist - show me"..... well, perhaps you'll manage to do so.... then can be found many other things which you can't show, but they exist nevertheless...

anyways, it wasn't and isn't my intention to argue here, but as I said - simply to show difference of opinions.

and here is one such example:

Tsunami: Believers defend their religions

The scale and the horror of December's tsunami has led some atheists to argue that it provides further proof that there is no God.

If there were, the argument goes, He would not have allowed such suffering to happen.

But many in the worst-affected areas say their faith is unshaken.....

few opinions are given by followers of different religions, one is christian:

Meanwhile, Edgar Ruddock, of the Christian organisation United Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, stressed that Christians should not lose their faith.

"My own Archbishop Rowan Williams has made the point that we would be less than human if we didn't at least have a question going through our mind - 'how do we make sense of all this?'" he said.

"But in terms of natural disaster, I think it's important to bear in mind that actually, it's the moving of tectonic plates that has allowed earth to rise out of the sea and human life to exist in the first place.

"So there is an element in which we are part of a process, part of something bigger" .........

so, id doesn't matter - who will win in this "debate" , you or me , although once again, I never tried to proove something. the thing is - independent of result here - other people in the world, both believers and non-believers, including those who suffered because of tsunami, will continue to maintain their beliefs or disbeliefs. they don't even know that there is such a Forum and such a thread and such a challenge you dare me to accept, and even if they knew - for them it won't matter anyway, would it?

then what for you want me to argue about - for your own sake or for mine? I don't try to convert you or anyone into religeous zealot neither into an atheist, although I've studied sufficiently both subjects of "scientific atheism" as it was literally called in our school program and in my University days and later on different religeous teachings. I let you win - be at peace of mind and remain with your opinion. as for me - no amount of challenges will make me to change my opinion. mind you, s far I didn't even mention it here, becasue again, I didn't try to prove that my opinion is right and other's are wrong, because it isn't my intention.

and BTW - since they don't know that you have challenged me here and can't see this thread (I doubt that you have the ability to SHOW it to all of them !) , and about this thread - perhaps it doesn't exist ? so why not drop it?

Edited January 24, 2005 by aaaaaa

[aaaaaa]

God's existence was already discussed here - how about Ghosts?

Ghosts stalk Thai tsunami survivors

Lek looks nervously at the Patong sea shore as he describes the passengers who climbed into his tuk tuk minivan late at night on 6 January.....

He had had what he thinks was an encounter with the ghosts that many say are haunting the beaches and resorts on Thailand's Andaman coast.

And the religious charms he wears around his neck are not helping him overcome his fears...

Lek's experiences are by no means unique.

seems like this article it is related to religion or some sort of believes and won't be out of topic here :

"At such times religion is very important because there is nothing else. The service the monks provide is just to listen, to be there, and to let them know that there is someone more grounded to listen."

Other religions are offering more direct help, and Patong beach has seen several "exorcisms" performed by Chinese spiritualists in the last few weeks.

In one, white robed monks from the Pu Ta Gong sect chanted prayers and offered sacrifices of food to the spirits.

Special offerings of pizza were included for foreign 'spirits', and paper clothes and money were burned to help in the passage to the after world.

As clouds of incense drifted down the white sand and over the calm blue waters, the troubled spirits of the dead and missing were urged to return home, for the sake of the peace of mind of the living.

[francois]

hi'

Indians would say "Mother Earth is angry, very angry"

it looks like this, doesn't it?

francois