The New Central Shopping Complex Is A Waste Of Space

[PattayaParent]

Wasn't it a concrete framed structure? not a steel structure with concrete casing?

it would have steel reinforcing in it but obviously the building inspectors forgot to check it or were paid not too, on a building like that the steel should have all been photographed before being concreted

It's just that your previous post mentioned welding steel and you wouldn't (at least shouldn't) be welding rebar.

[LennyW]

That is A M A Z I N G those things are bracing if not trying to hold the floor above in place.

Remember the New World Hotel Singapore? The blame for that collapse was put on quote: Under-design, shoddy workmanship and cost-cutting by the contractors were found to be responsible for the collapse.

The Sampoong shopping mall collapse in Seoul in 1995 was due to them dragging air con compressors across an already overloaded roof. In both cases the building 'warned' people that it was ready to collapse by shuddering and cracking.

But neither of those events could apply here right?

One has to wonder....

1)Were these brackets added as a result of a problem appearing? and if so, have they cured the problem?,

or,

2)Were these brackets added to prevent a problem from occurring? and again, if so, are they sufficient?

Edited May 21, 2009 by LennyW

[morrobay]

I sent the good photos by Phil Conners into a science , math and engineering forum asking the engineers to evaluate the after

construction braces addition.

So far I have only one reply from a physicist:

( quote from part of the reply ) "How long are the lag bolts ? we dont know. In any case this places the concrete surface elements

under the braces under additional shear upon vertical loading "

I have two more replies:

(selected exact word quotes)

"If this is a newer structure unbraced and unsupported columns MAY (and I stress MAY) be subject to punch through. "

"If those bolts dont go all the way through (e.g. they're drilled in part way and then epoxied in place) It just puts the concrete

( at the top of the pillar) in tension unless there is sufficient rebar."

"So contact a civil engineering academic and do it ASAP"

"This is beginning to sound much like retrofitting in response to the building breaking up- as they are strengthening the floor-column connections. Its likely this is where cracks have been found on other columns."

"Has there been any addional loading on the roof ?"

[syd barrett]

This sort of news does NOT surprise me. I for one and Mrs. Barrett will not be visiting this Mall in the near future.

Remember the flooding of water into the basement?

This whole Mall went up so fast and it is no surprise that re-bar or concrete-curing has been short-cutted. Can you really imagine a QA/QC taking concrete samples back to a laboratory here in Pattaya? No. They had a deadline (no pun intended) and they meant to keep it.

The structure of the building (the height and length) required serious architectural assesment. Remember long stick, weak stick. Short stick, strong stick.

I hope that there is no serious collapse, but now is the time for national, international and local press agencies to investigate. If they have to shut the Mall down for a week while Britsh 'experts' make a professional assessment, all well and good.

[MeetJohnDoe]

One has to wonder....

1)Were these brackets added as a result of a problem appearing? and if so, have they cured the problem?,

or,

2)Were these brackets added to prevent a problem from occurring? and again, if so, are they sufficient?

Maybe they were part of the original design...

[jellymeister]

Interesting how my initial rant on this place has turned into a concern about the structure...while I do now find some positives about the place, I still think it will have trouble surviving commerically.

I wouldn't expect the ambulance chaser Pattaya english media types to do any stories on this as they are not known for investigative journalism(maybe no budget?)

Re the structure, Thailand has a history of building collapses, including I believe a shopping complex up in Sri Racha a few years back for which an engineer faced some criminal charges...I am too lazy to google the actual case, maybe some other kind soul can find it..

There have also be building collapses during construction, usually during cement pouring like the one in Bangkok 2 weeks ago and in Pattaya park around 6 months ago.

If this building is unsound it can be for several reasons

-Improper structural design and load calculations

-Modifications to the original structure which affect and therefore invalidate the original calculations

-Inferior materials not to spec

-Poor workmanship and sub-contractors cutting corners to save money(in Korea some builders put telephone books in columns rather than concrete to save cash)

-Lack of construction supervision

-Unforeseen Seismic event

etcetc

What is most important to know is

-Who designed the place

-Which engineering firm signed off on the design

-who was the main contractor and accepted the works

Maybe they could provide answers to all questions

The rest is all speculation by we laymen...

[thaimate]

went in today ,they are now charging 30baht an hour after i hour to park ,however we were given a voucher that said that if we spent over 500 baht you can stay for three hours if you go to customer services. this is only sat and sun rest of week free .

the place was busy but as far as i could see no one was buying much ,my son was after a pair of nikki basketball shoes ,knowing the prices he wants to get them in bkk as he reckons they are about 1000 baht cheaper there,as my basketball days have long gone i bow to his knowledge.

the structure seemed ok just the usuall bits of masonary falling off every now and again ,but hey T.I.T

[MeetJohnDoe]

If this building is unsound it can be for several reasons

-Improper structural design and load calculations

-Modifications to the original structure which affect and therefore invalidate the original calculations

-Inferior materials not to spec

-Poor workmanship and sub-contractors cutting corners to save money(in Korea some builders put telephone books in columns rather than concrete to save cash)

-Lack of construction supervision

-Unforeseen Seismic event

I am sure this is a great comfort to all the folks who have "invested" in all the new high-rise condos that have been built over the past few years in Patters. At least I know where all my "recycled" newspapers have been going over the years.

[hotdeals]

I have no idea about such things,because i always use to buy from Online shopping center

[Ohio]

I have no idea about such things but here are the images in a more useful format:

OMFG.

Well, that's all I need to see to stay out of that place. I felt it shake (a little) too once but dismissed it foolishly.

We will not be returning either having seen those photos. I have sent them on to an acquaintance of mine in the Engineering faculty of a Uni for an opinion. Don't know if a definitive answer can be supplied just from a couple of photos though.

[thaibeachlovers]

those add ons are interesting, I would guess they have been added because the above structure has started moving, I couldnt imagine any other reason, which means the steel inside was in sufficient or not wielded properly, weather those add ons solve the problem I dont know but its certainly a sign that the building is substandard, there anyway, who knows where else and weather its the result of shoddy inspection or cost cutting

My 5 cents-

I can't see the point of flanges like that unless the floor above had given signs ( cracking around the concrete column? ) of collapsing down around the columns. If the problem was the column itself, they would have reinforced the pillar from floor to ceiling. However, by ( I presume ) drilling bolt holes through the column, they have just weakened it, which will lead to other, obvious complications.

As for the "shuddering", are they not still constructing an hotel above the mall?

[Ohio]

Had an answer already from a PhD Engineering Teacher from a Uni & he states:- "As there is no other information on the detail of this building & its construction background & requirements it would be difficult to say much on this."

But he did say that the Pillars with the plating is "Unusual"

Fingers crossed folks.

[rafval]

which part of the building are those photos taken? the car park Im guessing?

[gk10002000]

I have no idea about such things but here are the images in a more useful format:

Well, here is my two cents. I am a mechanical engineer. I have done structural stress calculations in a shipyard for submarine vessels and test pressure vessels and bolts and wires. My building construction experience is pretty small.

I can say that add ons like this are usually frowned upon and are often not that sound. In Los Angeles they went in and modified hundreds of buildings by welding on plates and flanges. They found out later that due to bad workmanship, lousy design calculations, poor loading estimates, most of the structural retrofits would have little effect in a modest earthquake.

In the USA a few years ago, a parking garage collapsed just as it was nearing completion. I can't remember the city. Thought it was the midwest somewhere. It turns out the concret slabs literally slid off their mountings. They were hanging on by their lips and literally just slipped off as the building flexed a bit. In that case, it really wasn't a structural failure, the darn things just moved off their supports and one floor crashed down onto the next and so on. Not sure what the final design for anchoring the slabs in place was.

These flanges, while looking robust, may not do much. Their purpose may be to help support the upper slabs and help anchor them in place. Those bolts, may be go all the way through and be one piece. I can't tell from the photos. Bolts can fail in several ways, shear, thread cross sections failing, bolt root failing. It is not too hard to estimate size of bolts given bolt material design strenght, dimensions and weights they are to hold. There is PC software that cans all those basic calcs for you, or you pull out a stress mechanics book and do it manually for understanding.

I have to assume the floors slabs were poured around some pretty solid steel cross members and grids. But, watching the way they build some things piecemeal over there on some of the hotels I watched them put together, I am less than convinced the framework was done right. As scarey as that sounds, that should have been the easiest and first thing to do. The constrction mentality I observed on my trips there, was just keep adding on bit by bit. Not sure the all in, build it right and solid is followed. Just putting a square foot of support area under the concrete may not be doing much. What is inside that concrete? Is there a framework? Were they preformed slabs lowered and just laid out to form a floor? No idea.

[thaimate]

Talking about central shopping mall,just went to the one that has just opened in Chonburi its a lot cheaper there than the Pattaya one ,mostly the same stores and smaller lower ground food mall but very good,seemed to be full of schoolgirls walking around in gangs and gigaling a lot ,my wife spoke to an assistant who had just been transfered from the Pattaya store ,she thought Pattaya was better, more tourists to practice her english on.

the main bonus was that as a Farang nobody botherd me as i looked around ,as most only spoke Thai so able to browse at leisure.

[moo9]

Interesting how my initial rant on this place has turned into a concern about the structure...while I do now find some positives about the place, I still think it will have trouble surviving commerically.

I wouldn't expect the ambulance chaser Pattaya english media types to do any stories on this as they are not known for investigative journalism(maybe no budget?)

Re the structure, Thailand has a history of building collapses, including I believe a shopping complex up in Sri Racha a few years back for which an engineer faced some criminal charges...I am too lazy to google the actual case, maybe some other kind soul can find it..

There have also be building collapses during construction, usually during cement pouring like the one in Bangkok 2 weeks ago and in Pattaya park around 6 months ago.

If this building is unsound it can be for several reasons

-Improper structural design and load calculations

-Modifications to the original structure which affect and therefore invalidate the original calculations

-Inferior materials not to spec

-Poor workmanship and sub-contractors cutting corners to save money(in Korea some builders put telephone books in columns rather than concrete to save cash)

-Lack of construction supervision

-Unforeseen Seismic event

etcetc

What is most important to know is

-Who designed the place

-Which engineering firm signed off on the design

-who was the main contractor and accepted the works

Maybe they could provide answers to all questions

The rest is all speculation by we laymen...

A whole bunch of civil engineers here...

Back to the Topic, I think it is a nice addition to Pattaya, it saves a few trips to BKK for shopping and I wonder why the majority of posters is that negative here....

[PattayaParent]

Talking about central shopping mall,just went to the one that has just opened in Chonburi its a lot cheaper there than the Pattaya one ,<snip>

I beleive the new one in Chonburi is Robinson's?

Central is a more upmarket store than Robinson's.

[Soutpeel]

I have no idea about such things but here are the images in a more useful format:

Well, here is my two cents. I am a mechanical engineer. I have done structural stress calculations in a shipyard for submarine vessels and test pressure vessels and bolts and wires. My building construction experience is pretty small.

I can say that add ons like this are usually frowned upon and are often not that sound. In Los Angeles they went in and modified hundreds of buildings by welding on plates and flanges. They found out later that due to bad workmanship, lousy design calculations, poor loading estimates, most of the structural retrofits would have little effect in a modest earthquake.

In the USA a few years ago, a parking garage collapsed just as it was nearing completion. I can't remember the city. Thought it was the midwest somewhere. It turns out the concret slabs literally slid off their mountings. They were hanging on by their lips and literally just slipped off as the building flexed a bit. In that case, it really wasn't a structural failure, the darn things just moved off their supports and one floor crashed down onto the next and so on. Not sure what the final design for anchoring the slabs in place was.

These flanges, while looking robust, may not do much. Their purpose may be to help support the upper slabs and help anchor them in place. Those bolts, may be go all the way through and be one piece. I can't tell from the photos. Bolts can fail in several ways, shear, thread cross sections failing, bolt root failing. It is not too hard to estimate size of bolts given bolt material design strenght, dimensions and weights they are to hold. There is PC software that cans all those basic calcs for you, or you pull out a stress mechanics book and do it manually for understanding.

I have to assume the floors slabs were poured around some pretty solid steel cross members and grids. But, watching the way they build some things piecemeal over there on some of the hotels I watched them put together, I am less than convinced the framework was done right. As scarey as that sounds, that should have been the easiest and first thing to do. The constrction mentality I observed on my trips there, was just keep adding on bit by bit. Not sure the all in, build it right and solid is followed. Just putting a square foot of support area under the concrete may not be doing much. What is inside that concrete? Is there a framework? Were they preformed slabs lowered and just laid out to form a floor? No idea.

My 2 pence worth, these look like a retro-fit in an attempt to solve an existing problem - possible punch through ? ie inadequate reinforcement to tie the column and slab together? Welding on the structural sections appears very shabby (I am a welding engineer).

Very usual to install structural steel sections like this on a RC framed construction..!!!

As regards how adequate the structural sections are...these are pretty thick individual sections, however not knowing the loads involved or the grade of steel used, very difficult to comment any further, other than to say in that they would need to be designed in accordance with something like AWS D1.1, have fully penetrated welds and subjected to full NDT.

My worry would not be the structual sections themselves, but the worry would be in the integrity of the bolts and method of grouting, as all these bolts are in shear

[Mobi]

I have sent details, including the pics, of this matter to the Editor-in-Chief and News Editor of the Bangkok post, with the suggestion that they have a journalist look into it.

I would never sleep easy if there was terrible accident, and I failed to do my bit to bring this to the attention of someone who could take some action. (I have absolutely no faith in the local authorities, all of whom must have received backhanders - al la the Santika fire tragedy in Bangkok, and indeed several fires with fatalities in Pattaya over the past few years.)

Let's see if anything happens.

[MickA]

Was in yesterday and the doors on the disabled toilet and the one for nappy changing are now out of line...the bolts will not engage in the holes to lock unless you pull the door out

[TheWalkingMan]

Was in yesterday and the doors on the disabled toilet and the one for nappy changing are now out of line...the bolts will not engage in the holes to lock unless you pull the door out

Let's home that the out-of-alignment is not related to the overall structure of the building and is just poorly hung doors.

[BSJ]

Holy sheet! How many of the support columns are wearing those reinforcing plates? From the number of holes that have been drilled into the concrete of the original column I'd be worried! Even if the threaded rods have been anchored in with epoxy or high strength grout it reduces the integrity of the whole. And with the vibration coming from the road and the hotel construction any small fault will accelerate into a big fault fairly quickly!

It would worry me if I had to go into the building. Anyone remember Kobe, 1995

[Mobi]

Was in yesterday and the doors on the disabled toilet and the one for nappy changing are now out of line...the bolts will not engage in the holes to lock unless you pull the door out

Let's hope that the out-of-alignment is not related to the overall structure of the building and is just poorly hung doors.

Maybe some brave soul could go around checking how many doors seem to have shifted and whether any recent cracks have appeared in the walls?

[thaimate]

Talking about central shopping mall,just went to the one that has just opened in Chonburi its a lot cheaper there than the Pattaya one ,<snip>

I beleive the new one in Chonburi is Robinson's?

Central is a more upmarket store than Robinson's.

nope its a central ,robinsons have a store in the complex.

[Mobi]

Talking about central shopping mall,just went to the one that has just opened in Chonburi its a lot cheaper there than the Pattaya one ,<snip>

I beleive the new one in Chonburi is Robinson's?

Central is a more upmarket store than Robinson's.

nope its a central ,robinsons have a store in the complex.

Yes, that's what I read.

As I posted earlier, I think they got things ass about face. The upmarket, posh store should probably be in Chonburi, as it is nearer for the Bangkok Hoi Polloi, and also for the many wealthy residents of Chonburi (The richest province in Thailand outside of Bangkok), both of which target groups wouldn't be seen dead in 'sin City'.

And the Robinson's store would do much better in Pattaya with the lower end tourists, and all us Cheap Charlies!

Maybe they'll figure it out one day, assuming the Pattaya store doesn't collapse in the meantime.

[PattayaParent]

[quote

I beleive the new one in Chonburi is Robinson's?

Central is a more upmarket store than Robinson's.

nope its a central ,robinsons have a store in the complex.

BOTH in one place.

Sounds like it'd be worth a trip for a look see.

How does it compare to the Robinson's in Sri Racha?

[SNGLIFE]

-lousy design...too much walking distances like suvarnbhumi

-escalators are inconvenient..the old scam of making you walk the long way around rather than being able to go straight up

-to get to the cinemas is a major expedition

On the whole much prefer tescos, big c royal garden, the avenue, or even central bang na

Co-sign the above.

A redeeming feature is that it is a nice place to go when you have time to kill (mostly trying to get from shop-shop on different levels). Purely a tourist mall IMHO. No way any local ex-pat would pay those prices over a Tesco or Big C...

[thaimate]

[quote

I beleive the new one in Chonburi is Robinson's?

Central is a more upmarket store than Robinson's.

nope its a central ,robinsons have a store in the complex.

BOTH in one place.

Sounds like it'd be worth a trip for a look see.

How does it compare to the Robinson's in Sri Racha?

its worth a drive to see it ,but even 4 days after opening their car park was full and had to park in an overspill one . the thing is though once you have been there you might as well stick with the Pattaya one.

as for Robinsons in Sri Racha ,i prefere it to both of them

[tropo]

Talking about central shopping mall,just went to the one that has just opened in Chonburi its a lot cheaper there than the Pattaya one ,<snip>

I beleive the new one in Chonburi is Robinson's?

Central is a more upmarket store than Robinson's.

nope its a central ,robinsons have a store in the complex.

Yes, that's what I read.

As I posted earlier, I think they got things ass about face. The upmarket, posh store should probably be in Chonburi, as it is nearer for the Bangkok Hoi Polloi, and also for the many wealthy residents of Chonburi (The richest province in Thailand outside of Bangkok), both of which target groups wouldn't be seen dead in 'sin City'.

And the Robinson's store would do much better in Pattaya with the lower end tourists, and all us Cheap Charlies!

Maybe they'll figure it out one day, assuming the Pattaya store doesn't collapse in the meantime.

As far as I know, there was no real department store in Pattaya until Central came to town. Previously where could one purchase higher quality clothing and shoes (for example)?

I've purchased quite a few more expensive quality items from the department store. Stuff unavailable anywhere else in Pattaya.

Central has its place in town. It completes the town. Not everyone likes to shop at markets and K-Mart type stores.

Even cheap charlies can get a deal in there if they scout around for the items on sale.

Edited June 4, 2009 by tropo

[MeetJohnDoe]

I've purchased quite a few more expensive quality items from the department store. Stuff unavailable anywhere else in Pattaya.

Central has its place in town. It completes the town. Not everyone likes to shop at markets and K-Mart type stores.

Even cheap charlies can get a deal in there if they scout around for the items on sale.