Foreign Scholars Sign A Letter To Curb Lm Laws

[pete_r]

[...]

There is simply no case. There's no climate of fear, there's no attempt at any serious discussion, there's no genuine need for discussion either. There's a few enthusiastic revolutionaries using all underhand means to make themselves heard, that's all.

[...]

Considering the replies since the thread re-opened, I'll beg to differ.

See also some of the comments in this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Police-Raid-...-O-t247703.html

[t.s]

Kudos for giving publicity to a letter you apparently dislike.

Now, rather than denigrating the authors and the signatories, could you move on to debating the ideas in the letter and outline what are the points you disagree with?

Thanks,

could you perhaps provide the text of the letter you would like us to debate? i personally have seen nothing here to debate about other than the intent of the signatories.

[adjan jb]

Kudos for giving publicity to a letter you apparently dislike.

Now, rather than denigrating the authors and the signatories, could you move on to debating the ideas in the letter and outline what are the points you disagree with?

Thanks,

could you perhaps provide the text of the letter you would like us to debate? i personally have seen nothing here to debate about other than the intent of the signatories.

His Excellency Abhisit Vejjajiva

Prime Minister

Office of the Prime Minister

Royal Government of Thailand

Bangkok, Thailand Facsimile: XXXXXXXXXXXX

Honorable Prime Minister Abhisit,

As scholars and sympathetic observers of Thailand, we are extremely concerned about the recent legal actions taken against Thai and foreign citizens under the lese majeste law. It is unfortunate that the political crisis in Thailand has led to the deterioration of basic civil liberties.

The frequent abuse of the lese majeste law against political opponents undermines democratic processes. Bringing charges against journalists, academics and other citizens for their views and actions simply because of allegations that they are offensive to the royal family prevents open discussion of important public issues. They illustrate the pitfall of the imprudent claims of loyalty to the monarchy.. Instead of protecting reputations, these lese majeste cases generate heightened criticism of the monarchy and Thailand itself, both inside and outside the country.

Several suggestions have been made for reforms to the lese majeste law. His Majesty himself has said that criticism of the monarchy should be permissible. We are concerned lest, instead of listening to these constructive opinions, your government continue to use the law to suppress civil liberties and freedom of expression. Some members of your government are even calling for harsher punishments under the lese majeste law. All of these are done in the name of protecting the monarchy.

The experiences of many countries have proven that only truth, transparency, civic discussion, and democratic process can turn conflict of ideas into innovative and peaceful change. Suppression of ideas does not solve anything, but such is likely to do more harm than good to the monarchy.

With the greatest respect, we would like to urge you and your government to consider the following.

Please stop seeking more suppressive measures against individuals, web sites, and the peaceful expressions of ideas.

Please consider suggestions to reform the lese majeste law to prevent further abuses and to prevent the possibility of further damage to the international reputation of Thailand and the monarch.

Please consider taking action to withdraw the current lese majeste charges, and working to secure the release of those already convicted under the lese majeste law. They are charged for expressing their ideas. This should not be a crime.

Sincerely yours,

[colibra]

I would add one more area of concern about the LM laws. I have been told to be carefull and anger Thai's because they could easily accuse me of breaking this law even if i didn't and there could be hel_l to pay. I have read about this fear posted on this web site by other people also. So it would seem that it can be used as a form of intimidation for us foreigner in Thailand. Anyone have any experiences along this line?

[pete_r]

I take it's diplomatic language. "With all due respect" and so on.

Thanks adjan jb for providing the text of the letter faster than me.

[sabaijai]

King Prajadhipok's Institute agrees to host reform

The King Prajadhipok's Institute (KPI) of Parliament agreed Monday to host a study aimed at making way for constitutional amendment and political reform.

Monday's meeting of the institute's council, which was chaired by Parliament President Chai Chidchob, resolved to appoint Sujit Bunbongkarn, former drafter of the 1997 Constitution who chairs the Political Development Council, to head a committee charged with conducting the study.

Bowornsak Uwanno, secretary-general of the KPI, told a press conference that the independent committee would include no more than 50 representatives of different sectors in society.

The Sujit panel would collect viewpoints and proposals on how to improve the political system. It was expected to complete the task within eight months, or by the end of November, according to Bowornsak.

The Nation

[TheWalkingMan]

I would add one more area of concern about the LM laws. I have been told to be carefull and anger Thai's because they could easily accuse me of breaking this law even if i didn't and there could be hel_l to pay. I have read about this fear posted on this web site by other people also. So it would seem that it can be used as a form of intimidation for us foreigner in Thailand. Anyone have any experiences along this line?

Bingo! Nail on the head. An accusation without proof and you can be locked up. Maybe the law should be that if you accuse someone of breaking this law, then you should be locked up just as long as the accused in order to show your solidarity with those above. After all, sacrifice can be considered a good thing. That would be an interesting law to have on the books.

TheWalkingMan

[mogoso]

The laws of Thailand should be determined by the people of Thailand, not by a random group of foreigners.

Even though some of the reds are speaking out against the monarchy and Lese Majesty laws, the majority are not.

The majority of the people love the monarchy, whatever side they are on and most likely agree with the current laws.

Foreigners have no right to tell them what is best, that is hypocritical and not true democracy anyway. A democracy is what the people want, even if it happens to contradict what foreigners agree with.

Colour me Thai Visa Orange. I neither agree with the reds entirely or the yellows more than a little bit. I guess that makes me an orange shirt. The people do love their monarch, they do agree with the laws. Its us dang old farangs trying once again to put our ideas into their culture. A good portion of the crying done on Thai Visa is from those who want their "better" ideas to be adopted into the Thai culture. Whether they're good ideas or bad, let the Thais do it themselves or it'll end up another PC country headed down the tubes.

[WeeGB]

From the original posting:

"Fifty international scholars and public figures called on the government yesterday to stop lese majeste charges being laid and suppressive measures being used against people, websites and the peaceful expression of ideas.

Well-known international scholars such as Noam Chomsky, Stuart Hall,"

Is this the same Stuart Hall, the north-west England broadcaster, who commentates on football games?

Previously employed as a link-man on such "educational" shows as "It's a Knock Out".

If my memory serves me correctly, this chap had some sort of legal problems, many years ago in th UK, regarding him threatening old ladies with a gun, apparently because he was a TV "star" and felt he should have more rights than they did.

And he is one of the people trying to tell Thailand about freedom & democracy?

Dear oh dear.

[Roadman]

I signed two petitions on Sunday (seeing it was womens day?) for rights for democratically thinking women. Think Mynamar and look at who they are arresting, detaining and disappearing for speaking what? "Intelligent thought". Its endless. I agree with some of the above posters - if you cannot speak in an intelligent, enquiring, calm manner with any thai authority without fearing the risk ot thai jail time under some 'quaint' law then some minor adjustment is needed.

I would fit myself in also as thai orange. I agree with the petition. It is not telling the thai minister what they should do but pleading that they consider all options. And the English model aside there is the whole European continent to choose from where countries openly discuss but highly cherish their Monarchs. It is not telling the minister any more than what he should already be hearing from his foreign ministers, consulates and bussiness forums. And given that there are already lunch junkets organised they were possibly already on the case.

I think the quick release of the Aussie (?) author (if a handful of sales confirms that status) also shows His Majesty's position to be in line with his previous stance.

The problem is the police and courts are creating the LM situations which then are embrassing Thailand. Hopefully the lunch junket crew will resolve that.

[pete_r]

I would add one more area of concern about the LM laws. I have been told to be carefull and anger Thai's because they could easily accuse me of breaking this law even if i didn't and there could be hel_l to pay. I have read about this fear posted on this web site by other people also. So it would seem that it can be used as a form of intimidation for us foreigner in Thailand. Anyone have any experiences along this line?

Fortunately no experience yet, but the tools are certainly in place. Aside from the LM laws, there's a website set up by this government, where you can report people you don't like online, be they innocent or not. Some communist regimes would have dreamed of that.

Quote from the BBC:

On the site's front page it is described as a means for Thai people to show their loyalty to the king by protecting him from what it calls misunderstandings about him.

It calls on all citizens to inform on anyone suspected of insulting or criticising the monarchy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7871748.stm

[colibra]

Well I guess that says it all. Better start kissing more arse in the future. Oh and don't piss off the Thai posters on this sight unless you want some time in the klink, or anyone else for that matter. Should make for a much nicer dialog though.lol

[plachon]

I think we should clarify who is "they" here.

Fifty foreginers or two organisers?

None of the names or prominent scholars are recongisable as Thai experts. I think they've just signed a paper because it's sounds good, without any deep knowledge of the matter.

Two organisers, on the other hand, are quite popular, with well known views. They, the orginisers/sponsors made it happen. It's not like Chomsky woke up one morning and felt like he should write a letter to Thai government.

Had people like Chomsky spent sometime getting up to speed, they'd realised that they are falling in the same trap they accuse the government of - using LM laws for political purposes, in this case publicity for Walker and co.

Just like Giles a week ago used a weak LM charge against his rather innocent book to stir up a lot of shit with his Red Siam communist manifesto. Just like Nicolaides used LM publicity to promote his book as "uncompromising assault on the patrician values of the monarchy" that actually has only one small reference to royalty.

These people have no integrity whatsoever.

Thongchai, the sponsor, sounds like his whipping up the paranoya with his "climate of fear" references.

I'm afraid Plus you are betraying your ignorance on such matters here. There are many recognised "Thai experts" and prominent academics on Thai and SE Asian affairs amongst the list, if you had taken a little time to overcome your prejudices and look at their bio's. And as for suggesting the signatories "have no integrity whatsoever" reflects more on you, than it does on them. It's a pity that you have allowed your own narrow worldview to cloud a wider vision of Thai politics and processes.

[pete_r]

Just came across a similar letter, from 1977: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/8363

Police Power in Thailand

By David L. Morell

To the Editors:

The following letter was recently sent to Thailand's Prime Minister Thanin Kraivichien by a group of thirty-eight American specialists on Thailand.

David L. Morell

Princeton University

His Excellency Thanin Kraivichien

Prime Minister of Thailand

Thai Ku Fa Building

Bangkok, Thailand

Dear Mr. Prime Minister:

We, scholars who have devoted ourselves to the study of Thai society and culture and individuals who through our experiences have come to have deep attachments to the people of Thailand, are greatly concerned about the protection of civil rights of those who have been arrested on political charges since October 6, 1976. Knowing your commitment to the maintenance of due processes of law and your reputation as a practitioner of the law, we are certain that you will understand our concerns.

We are particularly concerned about the 111 people, including twenty-four still in prison, who were arrested on October 6, 1976 and who, while being charged with political crimes, have yet to be brought to trial. Many of these people are known to us to be former students, former labor and farmer leaders, and former members of political parties who desire only to contribute in any way they can to improving conditions of life in Thailand. We strongly urge that if the charges against these people are found to be insubstantial that they be dropped and that these people be allowed to return to take their places in society. If these charges are deemed to be more substantial, we urge that legal proceedings be instituted. We are certain, knowing your own commitment to justice, that when such legal processes are instituted that they will be conducted openly and with allowance for the presentation of a full and adequate defense.

We are also concerned about the thousands of people who have been arrested since October 6, 1976 on charges of "endangering society" and more serious charges. We know that many of the arrests have been made on the basis of unsubstantiated evidence, often provided by fellow villagers or neighbors. Knowing your desire to create a just society in Thailand, we urge you to bring to an end these indiscriminate arrests, arrange for the release of all those against whom the charges are without solid legal basis, and speed up the legal proceedings for those for whom the charges appear to be more substantial.

Our experience in Thailand makes us acutely aware that the power given to the police to arrest people on the basis of vague charges, such as has been the case since October 6, 1976, provides certain policemen with the strong temptation to use their power to extort money from those who have been charged. We have learned of a number of cases where villagers charged with "endangering society" have had to pay large sums of money to policemen to get these charges dropped. We know that such actions must be as abhorrent to you as they are to us.

We urge you to give your attention to these problems of civil rights and associated corruption which must be so alien to your own sense of justice and to your incorruptibility.

Edit: Fix quotes

Edited March 11, 2009 by pete_r

[aussiejosh]

From the original posting:

"Fifty international scholars and public figures called on the government yesterday to stop lese majeste charges being laid and suppressive measures being used against people, websites and the peaceful expression of ideas.

Well-known international scholars such as Noam Chomsky, Stuart Hall,"

Is this the same Stuart Hall, the north-west England broadcaster, who commentates on football games?

Previously employed as a link-man on such "educational" shows as "It's a Knock Out".

If my memory serves me correctly, this chap had some sort of legal problems, many years ago in th UK, regarding him threatening old ladies with a gun, apparently because he was a TV "star" and felt he should have more rights than they did.

And he is one of the people trying to tell Thailand about freedom & democracy?

Dear oh dear.

You've picked a name, made an assumption and spent 5 minutes witting something useless. Not just that, but should ones actions in the past mean they have no right to voice opinions in the future because you remember some negative publicity about him? Look at the other names and scholars who are involved with this petition and do some research.

I have actually thought about this before and wondered the same, what could stop a Thai person I am having an argument with accusing me of breaking this law? - and if they were to do that, what could the potential repercussions be?

[Gaccha]

From the original posting:

"Fifty international scholars and public figures called on the government yesterday to stop lese majeste charges being laid and suppressive measures being used against people, websites and the peaceful expression of ideas.

Well-known international scholars such as Noam Chomsky, Stuart Hall,"

Is this the same Stuart Hall, the north-west England broadcaster, who commentates on football games?

Previously employed as a link-man on such "educational" shows as "It's a Knock Out".

If my memory serves me correctly, this chap had some sort of legal problems, many years ago in th UK, regarding him threatening old ladies with a gun, apparently because he was a TV "star" and felt he should have more rights than they did.

And he is one of the people trying to tell Thailand about freedom & democracy?

Dear oh dear.

You've picked a name, made an assumption and spent 5 minutes witting something useless. Not just that, but should ones actions in the past mean they have no right to voice opinions in the future because you remember some negative publicity about him? Look at the other names and scholars who are involved with this petition and do some research.

I have actually thought about this before and wondered the same, what could stop a Thai person I am having an argument with accusing me of breaking this law? - and if they were to do that, what could the potential repercussions be?

This is getting very silly; obviously the Stuart Hall is the renowned cultural theorist at Birmingham University, and not the TV presenter. One sometimes feels like one is the only reader of academic materials. Sigh.

[madjbs]

I have actually thought about this before and wondered the same, what could stop a Thai person I am having an argument with accusing me of breaking this law? - and if they were to do that, what could the potential repercussions be?

Probably nothing unless it was someone with some power behind them.

Anyway, just because incorrect accusations can easily be made, doesn't mean we should abolish certain laws.

Teachers lives have been ruined when students have accused them of sexually assaulting them just because they failed the class or had an argument. Does that mean we should abolish child molesting laws because accusations can be thrown around, leading to great damage, even if the accused is innocent?

[pete_r]

I dont' think anyone is considering flatly abolishing the LM laws. The letter to the PM talks only about reforms to make these laws less easy to abuse, a move that might be in the right direction, according to HRH birthday speech in 2005.

Edited March 11, 2009 by pete_r

[spongeman]

I bet they did not HAND DELIVER the letter to the Prime Minister...........

I would suggest they concentrate on more pressing issues such as Sudan or Zimbabwe.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

None of the names or prominent scholars are recongisable as Thai experts. I think they've just signed a paper because it's sounds good, without any deep knowledge of the matter.

They're spot on though.

Edited March 11, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I would add one more area of concern about the LM laws. I have been told to be carefull and anger Thai's because they could easily accuse me of breaking this law even if i didn't and there could be hel_l to pay. I have read about this fear posted on this web site by other people also. So it would seem that it can be used as a form of intimidation for us foreigner in Thailand.

It's much more commonly used as intimidation against other Thais. Foreigners by and large are wise enough to stay out of it, bar the occasional exception. After all most of them didn't come here because of the great political system.

Edited March 11, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Gaccha]

The natural progression of the current state of affairs:

Lese-Majeste Law Expanded To Include Lese-Majeste Accusations

Accusing others of defaming His Majesty now qualifies as defaming His Majesty by implicit suggestion that His Majesty is de-famable

<BANGKOK – In a sweeping new reform that is expected to change forever the status of the Thai monarchy, the government has announced an amendment to the Constitution that further widens the scope of the Kingdom’s long-standing lese-majeste laws prohibiting criticism of the royal family. Under Amendment 10-9982, the list of actions qualifying as lese-majeste now include the accusation of lese-majeste.

“It makes perfect logical sense – anyone can see that,” said a visibly pleased Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej. “The King is utterly above reproach, so anyone who suggests that mere words can defame him has caused serious defamation and must be punished.” The amendment was passed by a unanimous vote of 500-0 with no abstentions, and will be presented to the Palace for royal approval before ratification.

(see: http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=491)

Edited March 11, 2009 by Gaccha

[edgarfriendly]

"if anyone makes thailand cry, ill put them in a bodybag".....

reap what u sow, brave souls.

ef

PS - i accuse U.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Gaccha, that would actually make sense to curb frivolous accusations for personal or political gain.

These are interesting times when the content of Notthenation seems far more sensible than that of TheNation.