Ready To Tear The Country Apart

[Wolfie]

Is it 500 now? Last I heard from someone was they got 300.

Farang rates - we can demand a little higher pay

[plachon]

Is it 500 now? Last I heard from someone was they got 300.

Farang rates - we can demand a little higher pay

If you grabbed some crutches on the way to the demo and said on stage you'd been cured by Thaksin's 30 Baht scheme you could probably double that and get a free meal to boot.

[kurtgruen]

Unfortunately the current leadership doesnt care for the country either, and only out for their own self interests.

Oh c'mon Brit, i took you for an intelligent man There is always going to be a level of 'self interest' in Thai politics, Toxsin ran the country like a business, to make himself (and his family) as much money and possible... He is corrupt to the core, everyone knows that, he will implement some low level schemes to make it look like he is helping the needy, but at the end of the day its just a diversion to allow him to approve land deals for his wife, give insider trading info to his children and allow him to sell off Thai companies to other nations... all the time making himself a tonne of money.

The current government may not be perfect, im certain there is a level of corruption within them, bit nothing on the scale of Toxsin

Its a lesser of two evils my friend

The way I see it, is that we got rid of one very corrupt government serveral times now...Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai, PPP and whatever other name, they want to call themselves.

As other corrupt governments get exposed, we must need to get rid of them, one by one. That is the only way to fight corruption. You don't bring back somebody corrupt to fix the problem.

So far, I think the Democrats are doing o.k. I like the 2000 Baht handout. Canada and the rest of the world could learn a lesson from this. For example, instead of bailing out banks, greedy insurance companies, stock market gamblers and people who borrowed too much money....

give everyone who filed income tax returns for the past 3 years and made less than $30,000 a year a $10,000 US one-time cash gift. They could have done that within week and the economy would be flying high again, without all these stupid,expensive bailouts.

People would have used the money for downpayments on houses, to buy vehicles and other toys, to educate their children, get their teeth fixed, etc.

So yes, I like Abhisit and his 2000 Baht cash handout. It's the best and fairest way to stimilate the economy, by giving low income tax payers money.

Give them all 30,000 Baht and they can go buy houses, cars, etc. and the Thai ecomomy will be flying again ;-)

Anyways, Thaksin is a big joke. Sooner or later, he will get tired of paying people 500 Baht per day to demonstrate and will see that is useless. Then hopefully, he will go away ;-)

[kurtgruen]

Is it 500 now? Last I heard from someone was they got 300.

Farang rates - we can demand a little higher pay

If you grabbed some crutches on the way to the demo and said on stage you'd been cured by Thaksin's 30 Baht scheme you could probably double that and get a free meal to boot.

LOL ROFL

[edwardmoulton]

In the last few decades, why is Thailand ruled by Chinese (pure or almost 100% chinese blood)?

good question....I would also think 80-90 % of the business turnover.....

Because the Thai race cannot manage it's way out of a paper bag? That is why they are so xenophobic... In their hearts they know their shortcomings and well intentioned as many are, they are always on the defensive because of their inabilities... And with the current IQ and education standards dropping, there soon will be no Thais that can compete.

This whole situation with the current state of affairs politically shows how easily they get manipulated. Sure they were manipulated by Thaksin but they were a hel_l of a lot better off than now, I am guessing. They now have a government they did NOT elect (Abhisit has never earned any votes in his time as a party leader), their country is being steared rapidly into disaster by stupid policies (Thaksin is right that now is not the time to spend 2,000 THB for the sake of it and certianly not the time to increase fiscal borrowing to over 60%), for the most part they are being kept in ignorance by the current government ("GDP will not drop, oh well a little bit, we will recover in Q3 this year" - rubbish!) and they see two sets of rules - PAD can do anything, red shirts cannot.

I personally do not blame them at all for being angry and I think under the circumstances they are remarkably controlled - more than the PAD were anyway!

If the government is so sure of it's mandate to lead, let it call an election. But they will not because they know they will lose the way they lost the previous ones...

Whilst this whole turmoil is no good for the nation, it is better to sort itself out now, give power to the duly elected redresentatives and put an end to meedling in politics by those not elected once and for all.

Well I can dream anyway!

[kurtgruen]

[quote

Now..... the people are pissed because their vote was not respected , they were bulldozed by a vocal minority.

they want this to be known , they want a platform for their voice to be heard , and need logistic , financial, leadership, organising help .

I think they have every right to protest.

Look around you and listen to the people in the countryside...

Most people really don't care anymore. They want all these protests to stop...yellow, red, brown, pink, whatever shirts they are wearing. The want to go on with their lives in peace. Most of the ones who are protesting are getting paid 200-500 Baht per day to be there and the ones that don't, mostly have financial interest in Thaksin returning to power.

Yes, there might be a handful of genuinly misguided people, who actually believe that Thaksin was a good guy and should come back, but their numbers are shrinking by the day.

[Oberkommando]

Now we are seeing, and they are realising that the military can't just have coups and interfere in government anymore.

The Thai people aren't as uneducated as they were even in the early 90's.

The times they are a changin'.

Of course some Thais will just not let go and wish to keep the masses as serfs to use as cheap labour under the guise of sufficiency, or whatever other lie it is this month.

Don't blame Thaksin, he is only the wrong man in the right place at the wrong time. It is the military that started all this by staging a coup in 2006, then declaring martial law, destroying the constitution and disrupting democratic process, as flawed as that may have been.

So ye shall sow, so shall ye reap.

And now look what they gone and done, they've turned him into a figurehead for a democratic movement.

Somehow I'm not sure this Government, their supporters, the military and the judiciary are enjoying the irony quite as much as I am.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Oberkommando

[edwardmoulton]

Now we are seeing, and they are realising that the military can't just have coups and interfere in government anymore.

The Thai people aren't as uneducated as they were even in the early 90's.

The times they are a changin'.

Of course some Thais will just not let go and wish to keep the masses as serfs to use as cheap labour under the guise of sufficiency, or whatever other lie it is this month.

Don't blame Thaksin, he is only the wrong man in the right place at the wrong time. It is the military that started all this by staging a coup in 2006, then declaring martial law, destroying the constitution and disrupting democratic process, as flawed as that may have been.

So ye shall sow, so shall ye reap.

And now look what they gone and done, they've turned him into a figurehead for a democratic movement.

Somehow I'm not sure this Government, their supporters, the military and the judiciary are enjoying the irony quite as much as I am.

Totally true. Well said and I am enjoying the irony too...

The problem with all Thais, whether educated at Oxford or in the village, whether westernised or never left the village, is that the fundamental mentality never changes - money, money, money - now, now now. Thai short-termist approach gets them into every single situation they find themselves.

Ask yourself as I just did myself - did you ever meet a Thai with morals? Will turn down money because it's wrong...? Or will do something for nothing? Exactly...

Edited March 30, 2009 by edwardmoulton

[samgrowth]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews

Look at the current breaking news, protest is happening ONLY in the North & NorthEast.

The country is indeed split into 2 now. The Yellowland (Monachy) & the Redland (Thaksin).

[samgrowth]

In the last few decades, why is Thailand ruled by Chinese (pure or almost 100% chinese blood)?

good question....I would also think 80-90 % of the business turnover.....

Ironic isn't it. Why is the Chinese (Mark, Sondhi, et al) fighting with the Chinese (Thaksin et al) over Thailand.

If the fighting is between the Thai and the Chinese, or the Bargirl and the Farang, or the Budisht and the Christian, or the black and the white, or the men and the women; I can understand that. But the flight is between the Chinese and the Chinese over Thailand? I don't understand why?

[WaiWai]

Those attending the Serfs Liberation Day ceremony Friday in Beijing included the man in foreground, whom Chinese officials described as a former serf in Tibet. He is dressed in traditional serf attire.

Photo here: msnbc.msn.com/id/29916827/ (not sure how to paste it here).

"Letters From Thailand" by Botan is a good read .

(Not trying to drag this off-topic. I think the Chinese have faced the realities of the present day quite a bit more cleverly than ... others in the region).

[h90]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews

Look at the current breaking news, protest is happening ONLY in the North & NorthEast.

The country is indeed split into 2 now. The Yellowland (Monachy) & the Redland (Thaksin).

of course I would be very surprised to find any red mob in NakhonSiThammarat or Surat.

[h90]

In the last few decades, why is Thailand ruled by Chinese (pure or almost 100% chinese blood)?

good question....I would also think 80-90 % of the business turnover.....

Ironic isn't it. Why is the Chinese (Mark, Sondhi, et al) fighting with the Chinese (Thaksin et al) over Thailand.

If the fighting is between the Thai and the Chinese, or the Bargirl and the Farang, or the Budisht and the Christian, or the black and the white, or the men and the women; I can understand that. But the flight is between the Chinese and the Chinese over Thailand? I don't understand why?

Chinese:

Abhisit, Samak, Somchai, Sondhi, Chamlong, Chuan and for sure more.....

But most Chinese in Thailand feels as Thais, but are mostly better educated.

[sriracha john]

Red-shirted protesters pushed out of Lopburi provincial hall

Lopburi - Red-shirted protesters were pushed out of the compound of the provincial hall here Monday evening.

Assistant Lopburi Governor Sathaporn Siripakdee asked the protesters to leave the compound because the provincial administration wanted to close the gate of the hall for security reasons.

Initially, the protesters would not move out, but police talked them to leave the compound and rally at a public ground opposite from the hall.

Some crowd-control policemen were deployed to keep security inside the provincial hall.

- The Nation / 2009-03-30

[wayfarer108]

Much too soon to call elections, the country needs time to settle down again

it doesnt look like it is settling down... not even going in that direction.

it would certainly help if a certain convicted on the run criminal stayed well away instead of trying to de-rail what is a difficult period in the recovery of a very disjointed country.

the very same argument (replace criminal with PAD zombie masters) could be said for PAD interference.

Now..... the people are pissed because their vote was not respected , they were bulldozed by a vocal minority.

they want this to be known , they want a platform for their voice to be heard , and need logistic , financial, leadership, organising help .

I think they have every right to protest.

There is only one sensible, and respectful choice for Abhisit to make, that is to call new elections. However I doubt it will happen because the military and so called elites are saying no.

How would elections create a different parliamentary coalition than we see now? Support for the red hero is at its lowest ever.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Cloak-Shield...cy-t253640.html

Actually the term 'zombie' comes to mind when one sees the reds standing their with portraits of Thaksin hung from their necks.

Edited March 30, 2009 by wayfarer108

[Junglejumbo]

I don't think we're going to see elections for a very long time to come. Chidchob's MP group would likely lose big time for switching to the PAD Democrats.

There should be elections though. There's been a significant change in the ruling government (ie the new coalition) and people should decide if Chidchob and friends deserve power with the Democrats.

The problem is that as the previous PPP govt. didn't survive despite no serious corruption allegation and so why would a another Thaksin friendly party be any different?

Probably the only way is a PAD style majority unelected government but including Thaksin as one of its unelected key leaders. This would also mean granting him amnesty, for which there's good reason given evidence that the Privy Council met with top judges to discuss "judicial ways". When Britain signed a peace accord with northern Island it allowed IRA political leaders to take part in real leadership. We sometimes have to work with enemies for the greater good of the country in which both groups are nationals of.

The two privy council members should also resign. They're making fools of themselves. It's obvious they were involved in the coup and still they continue to strongly deny it. They totally underestimate the brains their own people. I seem to remember when the army blocked Youtube, Prem said something like "only a few teenagers look at it--what's the problem?" Again, another underestimation from a very old man.

We have several pics of Prem going around in his military uniform and quotes of him telling the army that they should not be loyal to the government.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Junglejumbo

[britmaveric]

Reds will have their say like the yellows did - that is certain.

[animatic]

In the last few decades, why is Thailand ruled by Chinese (pure or almost 100% chinese blood)?

good question....I would also think 80-90 % of the business turnover.....

Ironic isn't it. Why is the Chinese (Mark, Sondhi, et al) fighting with the Chinese (Thaksin et al) over Thailand.

If the fighting is between the Thai and the Chinese, or the Bargirl and the Farang, or the Budisht and the Christian, or the black and the white, or the men and the women; I can understand that. But the flight is between the Chinese and the Chinese over Thailand? I don't understand why?

The answer was right above you.

Edited March 30, 2009 by animatic

[kenai]

I was at the protest as an observer on Saturday (didnt wear any red). My wife is supportive of the UDD and we stopped by at her request. I didnt see any zombies with thaksin posters on there neck or any lines for cash.

People were wide eyed and involved even late into the night, this is a political movement by people concerned in it. Many of the people there had traveled far mostly from the north and northeast with the intention of staying several days. Anyone there would be moved by their love of country and determination to have a government in place that is freely elected and represented by the people - for the people.

To me thailand will not progress forward until there is a democratically elected party in place. Anyone whom considers this administration democratic should learn the base principals of democracy. I doubt seizing an airport to be appointed will be found in any definition.

The coup in 2006 coup was wrong as was the PAD airport incident. The current government has no democratic foundation and many citizens simply will not stand by. The economy in thailand is likely heading the same direction as every other country on the planet - not a good time to lead a weak and falsely built government I would think.

Just my thoughts

[Old Man River]

Much too soon to call elections, the country needs time to settle down again

it doesnt look like it is settling down... not even going in that direction.

it would certainly help if a certain convicted on the run criminal stayed well away instead of trying to de-rail what is a difficult period in the recovery of a very disjointed country.

the very same argument (replace criminal with PAD zombie masters) could be said for PAD interference.

Now..... the people are pissed because their vote was not respected , they were bulldozed by a vocal minority.

they want this to be known , they want a platform for their voice to be heard , and need logistic , financial, leadership, organising help .

I think they have every right to protest.

There is only one sensible, and respectful choice for Abhisit to make, that is to call new elections. However I doubt it will happen because the military and so called elites are saying no.

Who is this vocal minority you refer to that pissed people off because their vote was not respected and they were bulldozed?

Lest you forget, the previous government broke up when the PPP was dissolved by the Constitutional Court for electoral fraud.

[sriracha john]

Many of the people there had traveled far mostly from the north and northeast with the intention of staying several days.

SEVERAL days only??? But Jatuporn is talking about a month... or even a year... at Government House...

Red Shirts vow prolonged anti-government protest

BANGKOK, March 26 (TNA) - Anti-government protesters of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) on Thursday vowed to continue their protest at Government House for at least one month.

UDD core key leader Jatuporn Prompan, also a member of parliament from the Opposition Puea Thai Party, said that the group’s rally would be prolonged for at least one month, and that the group has sufficient capability and could sustain the protest up to one year if they wish.

[Old Man River]

Time for the current government to resign and call elections.

A contribution worthy of Koo. Wake up BM - you backed a bad 'un - and no amount of whining about the current govt's imperfections will change that. If you can't see the damage that Thaksin wrought during his time in power and is wreaking during his time in exile, then I suggest you get out your red shirt and go and collect your 500 B a day with the rest of them. Might as well profit from your delusion, eh? Build a little bridge and get over it.

Is it 500 now? Last I heard from someone was they got 300.

From what I have been told in previous demonstrations (I am not saying this is the case here), the middleman who rounds people up outside of Bangkok gets THB 200 per person and the demonstrators get THB 300 plus food. Obviously, lodging is not included.

[animatic]

^unfortunately Dems are guilty of electoral fraud too, but of course they have the courts in their pocket so nought will happen to them.

Guilty implies they have passed through the courts and were convicted.

That is not the case.

if you would like to say in you opinion they should be convicted

then that would be accurate.

[Johpa]

Oh c'mon Brit, i took you for an intelligent man There is always going to be a level of 'self interest' in Thai politics, Toxsin ran the country like a business, to make himself (and his family) as much money and possible... He is corrupt to the core, everyone knows that, he will implement some low level schemes to make it look like he is helping the needy, but at the end of the day its just a diversion to allow him to approve land deals for his wife, give insider trading info to his children and allow him to sell off Thai companies to other nations... all the time making himself a tonne of money.

The current government may not be perfect, im certain there is a level of corruption within them, bit nothing on the scale of Toxsin

Its a lesser of two evils my friend

Au contraire, Thaksin is no different than the current ruling elite other than he did not sufficiently share the spoils. And to rub salt into the imagined wounds of the old guard, he even offered the rural poor some crumbs in exchange for their votes, a relatively new twist on the old Thai phrase for politics kin muang. Now this concept of throwing some crumbs to the masses is not copywrited and could easily be taken up by the Yellow Shirted ones, but instead they pander to the ever aspiring middle class with veiled and coded ethnic messages belittling the rural masses and thus belittling the seeds of democracy that even a corrupt demagogue like Thaksin has the ability to sow.

Sort of like I see here in the US where the ruling elite finds a way to co-opt many of the middle classes into believing that they and the elite share some values.

[TAWP]

AsiaMB> Get your facts straight...

[KhaoNiaw]

To me thailand will not progress forward until there is a democratically elected party in place.

That should not be enough.

All the red leadership wants is Thaksin back so that they can distribute their largesse amongst the masses, top-down politics. The career politicians in the PT war-room will determine policy and set the agenda. Rural folk are just meant to turn out and vote for them every few years. That's not really progress. If they want to bring about genuine democratic progress why don't they set up a party of participatory politics, where ordinary members have a say and vote in setting policy? Why not show support for those losing their jobs, or organize cooperatives for farmers to maximize their bargaining power? You still see local people demonstrating over different issues in the news every night - not a red shirt in sight supporting them though. They could be doing this now and establishing a real base for an election when it comes.

[Johpa]

In the last few decades, why is Thailand ruled by Chinese (pure or almost 100% chinese blood)?

good question....I would also think 80-90 % of the business turnover.....

Because the Thai race cannot manage it's way out of a paper bag? That is why they are so xenophobic... In their hearts they know their shortcomings and well intentioned as many are, they are always on the defensive because of their inabilities... And with the current IQ and education standards dropping, there soon will be no Thais that can compete.

Thailand is not ruled by the Chinese but by a coalition of the old Thai aristocracy, the high Sakdina families, and the Sino-Thai elite, both sides now well inter-married. The ecomomy is dominated by the Sino-Thai families, not all of whom are elite, and clearly no longer a completely unified group.

As to why the economy is dominated by the Chinese is a bit complicated, but a few things stand out. Going back a mere 150 years, Thailand was not yet a monetized society. Taxes were paid in the form of corvee labor. Modernization was abrupt and the need for people familiar with the concept of money was great and even the poorest Chinese peasant understood what it was to be in debt. So voila, the immigrant Chinese inherited the newly emerging monetary system, including the crucial role of tax collectors for the government. Another fact that historians have noted, most recently Niall Ferguson (an author worth the effort to read) is that in emerging immature economies, the minority groups had a degree of trust within their groups, a degree of credence, a degree of thus the ability to bestow credit, that did not exist in the larger indigenous society where finance was relatively new. And thus we see today a total domination of the banking in Thailand by the Sino-Thai community.

But I would argue that historically, it has been the Chinese who have had a culture of xenophobia, more so than the ethnic rural Tais who lived for centuries so far removed from the global market that such attitudes never developed.

[animatic]

AsiaMB> Get your facts straight...

Fastest post deletion I have encountered.

Correctly rendered too.

[BigSnake]

From what I have seen the last few days Mr Thaskin's red shirts gangs are not getting very much support in the SHOW of crowds at there Rallies, nothing like what I saw back in Oct/Nov 2008 in this area.

[edwardmoulton]

In the last few decades, why is Thailand ruled by Chinese (pure or almost 100% chinese blood)?

good question....I would also think 80-90 % of the business turnover.....

Because the Thai race cannot manage it's way out of a paper bag? That is why they are so xenophobic... In their hearts they know their shortcomings and well intentioned as many are, they are always on the defensive because of their inabilities... And with the current IQ and education standards dropping, there soon will be no Thais that can compete.

Thailand is not ruled by the Chinese but by a coalition of the old Thai aristocracy, the high Sakdina families, and the Sino-Thai elite, both sides now well inter-married. The economy is dominated by the Sino-Thai families, not all of whom are elite, and clearly no longer a completely unified group.

As to why the economy is dominated by the Chinese is a bit complicated, but a few things stand out. Going back a mere 150 years, Thailand was not yet a monetized society. Taxes were paid in the form of corvee labor. Modernization was abrupt and the need for people familiar with the concept of money was great and even the poorest Chinese peasant understood what it was to be in debt. So voila, the immigrant Chinese inherited the newly emerging monetary system, including the crucial role of tax collectors for the government. Another fact that historians have noted, most recently Niall Ferguson (an author worth the effort to read) is that in emerging immature economies, the minority groups had a degree of trust within their groups, a degree of credence, a degree of thus the ability to bestow credit, that did not exist in the larger indigenous society where finance was relatively new. And thus we see today a total domination of the banking in Thailand by the Sino-Thai community.

But I would argue that historically, it has been the Chinese who have had a culture of xenophobia, more so than the ethnic rural Tais who lived for centuries so far removed from the global market that such attitudes never developed.

Fair points and you are far more appraised historically than me so thanks for the information.

I still disagree with you though on the Thai mentality. I have studied it anecdotally and a little empirically and it is quite unique even in Asia.

Nowhere else do I see such lack of will to learn, improve one's own lot and ultimately move up a social class or at least get richer. Instead the culture is one of suspicion, laziness and apathy (generally). I am very impressed byt he will and determination of the rural poor now to fight for their cause and good luck to them. They will of course win in the end as revolutions never started in the middle classes (ever!).

Nevertheless, once the fight is over it will be back to the mobile phone, soap opera TV and cramming the family into the pick up for the weekend drive. A book will never be opened and no more than a weeks wages will be invested in a new business. This is what holds Thailand back and differentiates it from other countries, even those less developed in Asia.

My explanation is that the core pride of Thais is their downfall - no colonisation and no influx of foreign blood and ideas. By the way, I am NOT pro colonialists NOR am I supporting them EVER before someone jumps on that, BUT the truth is that once the upheaval, rape and pillage is over, the country does have a legacy of a different outlook.

Take Vietnam, ravaged and desecrated by war, but moving forward with no remorse or grudges and now widely predicted to grow fast again because of its 'young hard-working population and stable political system' as I read today in a property report. Sure it is not a democracy but it is stable and the people do read an average of 80 books a year compared to 1 in Thailand...

Thais have a 'tarzan mentality' - fear of outsiders in their country and this holds them back. You have two choices to develop economically in competitive times - rely on your own educated labour or look for outside help. Sure, Taiwan, Korea etc can do so as can Hong Kong if the foreigners left but Thailand would be left with an indigenous population which is in fact practically unemployable in a first world country based on an average IQ of 88/89 and dropping (IQ scales categorize that level IQ as such). Couple that with perhaps the poorest English skills in Asia and they cannot even do as Filipinos do relying on their English to travel extensively for work.

Again, I do not want to be harsh, but there is little left except the oldest profession so maybe that is why Thailand is so famous for that!

Back to the subject of the thread - this protest will tear the country apart but as I said earlier, it has to happen for some sense to set in and pull the locals from their apathy. Maybe then they will try a little bit to embrace some foreign culture and help. I was not here for many of Thaksin's years in power but friends of mine tell me that he was the first outside (as in rest of world) thinking leader which was good for the country and I guess scared the ruling elite as it would disturb the hierarchy of them and us (the slaves)...

Things must change!

Edited March 30, 2009 by edwardmoulton