Thai Banks To Start Charging For Atm Withdrawals ...

[JimGant]

Odd, the Bank of Ayudhya at Century Mall (Victory Mon) has been charging the 150 since last Monday. You would think it would be system wide.

Was that on Nationwide's Cash Card (Cirrus), or their Visa ATM card?

I've gotten a little confused here -- I thought I'd spotted that, because the Cash Card rides MasterCard's Cirrus network, and because it's denominated in GBPs, it will neither be subject to DCC nor to the 150bt fee, which I thought only associated with Visa cards. I.e., the Cash Card neatly falls in a crack at Bank of Ayudhaya, where the machines are programmed to equate Visa with 150bt, MasterCard/Cirrus with DCC, and MasterCard/Cirrus from Britain with a pass.

However, if the card you used was the Cirrus branded Cash Card, then obviously I've missed something.....

[relayer]

That, and in Ayudhya's case, they're also doing Dynamic Currency Conversion (translate as bad exchange rates) on MasterCard logo cards denominated in U.S. $ or Euros. (Not sure how they treat Cirrus cards that aren't MasterCard logo).

So, if you have a Nationwide Cash Card, and use a Bank of Ayudhaya ATM machine, you won't be subject to DCC -- because the card is denominated in GBPs. Hear Hear. At some level, somebody in Great Britain took a stand against DCC with ATM machines -- as has Visa Worldwide. But, I'd love to know the actual gouge from a DCC ATM transaction...... JC?

re: example of "DCC hit"

Bank: Ayudhaya

Time: Today (approx. 3pm)

Type of card: "Mastercard" Debit

Market Exchange Rate: 34.11 Baht/ USD

Ayudhaya Exchange Rate: 32.93 Baht/ USD

Fee: none

I declined the transaction...

ref: http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/fds/hi/...78/intraday.stm

[SurfRider]

"I've gotten a little confused here -- I thought I'd spotted that . . ."

You think that's confusing! -- Maybe this new silly little quirk is not all that confusing-- but hopefully at least a bit amusing-- to Expats who marvel at the endless parade of Thai boondoggles that confront the wary intrepid traveler attempting to survive in this bizarre wayward corner of world-- detached from the reality of the civilized world. . .

The News: "Immigration crackdown on border runners --- BANGKOK (thaivisa.com) -- Thai Immigration Bureau has issued a new regulation to be enforced from today, June 1, 2009. --- A foreigner who has entered the kingdom four (4) consecutive times on 15 days tourist exemption stamps, will not be allowed to leave the country and re-enter Thailand. The only option is to exit Thailand and re-enter via an international airport.

What's next? -- 4 consecutive foreign account ATM withdrawals and they'll force us to do the 5th withdrawal in Zimbabwe?

Then attempt another return "home" to Siam, assuming it's still worth the ridiculous hassle ??? ( Don't forget to buy your re-entry permit before you depart for your 5th ATM withdrawal escapade )

.

[JimGant]

re: example of "DCC hit"

Bank: Ayudhaya

Time: Today (approx. 3pm)

Type of card: "Mastercard" Debit

Market Exchange Rate: 34.11 Baht/ USD

Ayudhaya Exchange Rate: 32.93 Baht/ USD

Fee: none

Thanx, relayer.

So, assuming we ever get to only having a choice between DCC and the 150bt flat fee....

If you only get 4186bt, or less, per trip to the ATM, DCC beats the 150bt flat fee (at the above rates, anyway).

Ain't math fun.

[jfchandler]

But, I'd love to know the actual gouge from a DCC ATM transaction...... JC?

Don't look at me!!!! I've taken a firm stand AGAINST throwing away my hard-earned money to gouging Thai banks...

[jfchandler]

I've gotten a little confused here -- I thought I'd spotted that, because the Cash Card rides MasterCard's Cirrus network, and because it's denominated in GBPs, it will neither be subject to DCC nor to the 150bt fee, which I thought only associated with Visa cards. I.e., the Cash Card neatly falls in a crack at Bank of Ayudhaya, where the machines are programmed to equate Visa with 150bt, MasterCard/Cirrus with DCC, and MasterCard/Cirrus from Britain with a pass.

However, if the card you used was the Cirrus branded Cash Card, then obviously I've missed something.....

Jim, I think you did miss something. To my best recollection, the Thai Bankers Assn. resolution was broad and multi-layered regarding those cards covered by the 150 baht fee. The language included foreign VISA, MasterCard and other ATM cards not part of the Thai ATM pool. So by the way they crafted it, as long as the card is foreign, it would be subject to the 150 baht ATM fee at a charging bank. Folks like Amer. Express, Discovery, JCB and straight non-VISA/MC ATM cards don't get exempted from this. And I haven't heard any TV member reports to the contrary.

That is a separate policy, of course, from Bank of Ayudhya's DCC policy, which supposedly does just apply to MasterCard logo cards denominated in U.S $ or Euros.

I don't believe I've seen any clear reports from people using Great Britain pounds denominated MasterCards at Ayudhya, and whether they avoided DCC, or likewise, whether non-MasterCard Cirrus cards were tried and with what result regarding DCC. And of course, at least until lately, Ayudhya had not actually begun charging the 150 baht fee.

Now, you do raise an interesting question. Ayudhya is the only major Thai bank we know of using DCC for MasterCard ATM withdrawals (for U.S. $ and Euro accounts). Since they obviously have to program their own system, is it possible they have adopted a two-tier system:

--U.S. $ and Euro MasterCard withdrawals get DCC, but no 150 baht fee.

--All other foreign cards (or all VISA and non MC cards) get the 150 baht fee.

My guess is they have not done that. My guess is, the DCC policy for MC cards was a separate and prior action by the bank. And then when the 150 baht foreign card fee came along, they likely will have just laid that fee on top of everything else, applying it equally to both VISA, MC and all other foreign cards when used in their ATMS. But for right now, it's just my guess.

[jfchandler]

Relayer, had you done that ATM transaction, you obviously would have been STUNG by a really BAD exchange rate. Best move was to walk away. For now, you can use a UOB ATM instead. They take MC card and no 150 baht fee. Same with AEON ATMs... And both UOB and AEON will give you the full market exchange rate, no DCC with them...

By the way, re the above discussion here, what currency is that MC you use denominated in?

re: example of "DCC hit"

Bank: Ayudhaya

Time: Today (approx. 3pm)

Type of card: "Mastercard" Debit

Market Exchange Rate: 34.11 Baht/ USD

Ayudhaya Exchange Rate: 32.93 Baht/ USD

Fee: none

Thanx, relayer.

So, assuming we ever get to only having a choice between DCC and the 150bt flat fee....

If you only get 4186bt, or less, per trip to the ATM, DCC beats the 150bt flat fee (at the above rates, anyway).

Ain't math fun.

Edited June 2, 2009 by jfchandler

[JimGant]

JC, thanx for the reply. I guess we'll need to let the dust settle before we know what's really going on at the Bank of Ayudhaya.

Relayer's data shows DCC hits you with a 3.5% charge -- even before your issuing bank and network charges kick in. Wow, who'd ever go that route.....

Would really like to see what the Islamic bank is doing about all of this, knowing that usury is akin to eating pork in their world........... Decapitation anyone? Yeah!!

[jfchandler]

Jim, I assume you're joking a bit about the Islamic bank...

But just for the record, the other day at Mochit Bus Station, I tried my US MC and Visa debit cards in both the BAAC (Bank of Agriculture and Commerce) and Islamic Bank ATMs I found there.

Got "communication error" on both ATMs with both U.S. cards. Closely examined both ATM machines, and found no signage or stickers anywhere showing acceptance of Visa, MC, or any of the international card networks. Just Thai ATM pool.

[andyc2006]

Somebody said that an AEON ATM machine limited them to a 7000 THB withdrawal, another said that their machines aren't well-marked.

On Saturday I used the AEON machine in the basement of Siam Paragorn (near the flower shop): well-marked, and allowed me to withdraw 15000 baht (didn't try a larger amount).

[Briggsy]

"stop useing the atm go inside with your passport to withdraw ... from my uk bank there is no fee at all"

This subject has been covered many times in these threads.

If you go inside to do the withdrawal, you're being charged MUCH MORE than an ATM withdrawal because they give you a very inferior exchange rate compared to an ATM.

Please check and post the amount of Baht that you received from the bank and the amount of cash that your UK account was debited, and what date you did the transaction.

.

actually that is not correct ,look up my previous post on the subject ,at first i thaught that i had been given a bad rate but later when the"actuall" charge came through i got the going nationwide rate . this was at the bangkok bank branch in naglua.

I totally agree with Thaimate. SurfTrader's post is incorrect.

For Nationwide users, an ATM withdrawal gets the rate at that instant. A counter withdrawal gets the rate the following day. So you can "win" or "lose" by doing a counter withdrawal depending on fluctuations in the exchange rate. I actually 'won' both times I did it as the pound was strengthening day by day.

[hackerthai]

Ok

Thank you all for helping save money.

All banks now appear to have the 150 baht fee in Phuket. I can't find the few remaining ATMS that are mentioned. (USB and AEON)

So I went into K bank and they took a Visa Debit and let me get cash that way and no fee. My question:

Am I getting the best exchange rate possible with this method? or is an ATM machine a better exchange rate in which I would pay the 150 baht.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[jfchandler]

Hacker, sorry you can't find the AEON and GSB ATMs in Phuket. I posted the locations for them earlier in this thread. At least for now, you also can use UOB (United Overseas Bank) ATMs without getting hit with the 150 baht ATM fee, but not sure how long that will last.

As to exchange rates, there has been conflicting information posted here about the details of so-called over-the-counter ATM card withdrawals, and probably, the practices and fees vary by individual Thai banks. It seems, the different banks handle them differently in terms of withdrawal limits, fees and other details.

Here's the one think I can say for sure. Your target rate for any withdrawal of funds in Thailand should be somewhere between the so-called "buying TT" rate and the IER (Interbank Exchange Rate). For yesterday (Monday, June 1), those rate averages were 34.00 for buying TT and 34.13 for IER. You can find those daily rates at the Bank of Thailand web site.

Look at your withdrawal, including any included fees. If your net exchange rate (including any fees) was somewhere in the 34.00 to 34.13 range for yesterday, then you were doing OK to good. If you were getting less than the buying TT, then you could have done better and/or you were getting hit with fees.

When I make ATM withdrawals using a U.S. Visa debit card, I use Thai banks that don't charge the 150 baht ATM fee (such as GSB, AEON and UOB) and I get pretty close to that day's IER exchange rate every time. Visa cards such as Schwab, E*Trade and Capital One seem to give the best rates. Other banks' Visa cards add on visible or hidden fees, and result in lower net exchange rates received.

[SurfRider]

"I totally agree with Thaimate. SurfTrader's post is incorrect."

Why do you folks continue posting information here that you are not willing to substantiate with facts?

Especially when recent data posted in this thread indicates that your claims are not correct?

Why not simply post your hard data that you believe backs your claims and be done with it???

.

[jfchandler]

Hacker, since you did the counter withdrawal at Kasikorn Bank, please do let us know the details of that transaction:

--How much baht you received in cash

--How much, in total, your home account was charged

--The date of that transaction

With those details, we can know whether Kasikorn's handling of over-the-counter withdrawals is better or worse than a comparable ATM transaction.

Thanks...

[SurfRider]

"With those details, we can know whether Kasikorn's handling of over-the-counter withdrawals is better or worse than a comparable ATM transaction"

Either that, or you could simply get your exchange rates from a bar-girl in Pat-Pong -- which appears to be the only standard required for some of the people posting here . . .

( sorry, couldn't resist )

.

[jubby]

I tried a local GSB ATM on Saturday and today, got 'communication error' each time. maybe the system can't cope with the extra traffic. Gave up and used another bank and paid the 150 baht fee.

I never thought to use the UOB . I'll try it next time.

Someone mentioned using Nationwide card and passport over the counter. Which bank and are you sure you got the same rate as the ATM.

[thaimate]

"I totally agree with Thaimate. SurfTrader's post is incorrect."

Why do you folks continue posting information here that you are not willing to substantiate with facts?

Especially when recent data posted in this thread indicates that your claims are not correct?

Why not simply post your hard data that you believe backs your claims and be done with it???

.

sorry surftrader what proof do you want ,want to see my computer printout? you were wrong i was right i got the nationwide full rate for the day ,used the bangkok bank in naglua ,when i asked the woman if there was a charge she replied no charge no limit to the amount you can take . however this was before the .85 % withdrawel ,i will try tomorrow or day after to see if n/wide charge over the counter .

[jfchandler]

What bank/network card did you try to use at GSB???

Their ATMs only take Visa logo cards, not MasterCard or Cirrus or any other international flavors.

I tried a local GSB ATM on Saturday and today, got 'communication error' each time. maybe the system can't cope with the extra traffic. Gave up and used another bank and paid the 150 baht fee.

I never thought to use the UOB . I'll try it next time.

Someone mentioned using Nationwide card and passport over the counter. Which bank and are you sure you got the same rate as the ATM.

[jubby]

Nationwide Visa.

[jfchandler]

Thaimate, if you got a good deal, you should post the details for the rest of us to know... You said you went thru Bangkok Bank....

--How much baht did you receive for that transaction

--What was the total amount deducted from your home account

--What was the date of that transaction

If you got a good over-the-counter deal thru BKK Bank, those details will bear it out...

sorry surftrader what proof do you want ,want to see my computer printout? you were wrong i was right i got the nationwide full rate for the day ,used the bangkok bank in naglua ,when i asked the woman if there was a charge she replied no charge no limit to the amount you can take . however this was before the .85 % withdrawel ,i will try tomorrow or day after to see if n/wide charge over the counter .

[jfchandler]

Nationwide Visa should work fine in Government Savings Bank ATMs... Haven't had any reports to the contrary, that I recall. Perhaps there was a problem with that ATM over the weekend.

Visa cards right now should work fine (no fee) in GSB, AEON and UOB, and possibly Ayudhya, though there are conflicting reports about the later bank.

Nationwide Visa.

[SurfRider]

"I tried a local GSB ATM on Saturday and today, got 'communication error' each time"

"Got "communication error" on both ATMs with both U.S. cards."

It appears that these pesky ATM "Communication Errors" can be corrected ( see below )

Bring your screwdriver and be prepared to spend a bit of time

http://www.trm.com/atm_triton_trouble.shtm...unication_error

Problem: The ATM says "Communication Error"

Cause: The ATM may have developed a fault that prevents it from communicating with the network.

Solution:

1. Open the ATM control panel and locate the power switch on the left side of the power module at the rear of the enclosure.

2. Press the power switch off, wait 10 seconds, then turn back on.

3. After an ATM Reset the "Reset Error" and "Management" options appear. Select the "Reset Error" option. If the problem has been corrected. the ATM should return to normal operation. If it does not, proceed to Step 4.

4. Open the ATM control panel.

5. Unplug the telephone cable from the bottom plug on the left side of the power module (at the rear of the enclosure).

6. Plug in the base unit(not the handset) of a telephone and listen for a dial tone.

7. If a dial tone exists, unplug the telephone and replug in the telephone cable. Close the ATM control panel and call 1-800-877-8762 for service. If there is no dial tone, continue with Step 8.

8. Locate the telephone wall jack for the ATM.

9. Unplug the cable and connect the base unit of a telephone.

10. Listen for a dial tone. If there is no dial tone, there is a phone line problem. Contact your telephone service provider for assistance.

[SurfRider]

"when i asked the woman if there was a charge she replied no charge no limit"

And if she told you that her buffalo was sick and she needed 5000 Baht to make him better, or her 3rd cousin needed to be cremated and she needed 8000 Baht -- would you believe her, or ask for evidence? . . .

.

[Netfan]

Odd, the Bank of Ayudhya at Century Mall (Victory Mon) has been charging the 150 since last Monday. You would think it would be system wide.

Was that on Nationwide's Cash Card (Cirrus), or their Visa ATM card?

I've gotten a little confused here -- I thought I'd spotted that, because the Cash Card rides MasterCard's Cirrus network, and because it's denominated in GBPs, it will neither be subject to DCC nor to the 150bt fee, which I thought only associated with Visa cards. I.e., the Cash Card neatly falls in a crack at Bank of Ayudhaya, where the machines are programmed to equate Visa with 150bt, MasterCard/Cirrus with DCC, and MasterCard/Cirrus from Britain with a pass.

However, if the card you used was the Cirrus branded Cash Card, then obviously I've missed something.....

Cirrus. US account - Chase Bank.

[Chaimai]

I totally agree with Thaimate. SurfTrader's post is incorrect.

For Nationwide users, an ATM withdrawal gets the rate at that instant. A counter withdrawal gets the rate the following day. So you can "win" or "lose" by doing a counter withdrawal depending on fluctuations in the exchange rate. I actually 'won' both times I did it as the pound was strengthening day by day.

I agree that surftrader was wrong.

However, my last over the counter withdrawal was 'blocked' at the rate at the time (circa 53) but when the paper slip eventually found it's way, via carrier pigeon, to Nationwide the rate had improved to (circa 54).

Can't recall the exact rates but these were in earlier post.

[SurfRider]

"Odd, the Bank of Ayudhya at Century Mall (Victory Mon) has been charging the 150 since last Monday. You would think it would be system wide"

Probably just a matter of their technical staff getting around to upgrading software in a very large population of ATMs.

Which means that it's most likely about time to write Ayudyha off as another complicit lemming in the usury scheme, plunging over the cliff to the dark-side.

Probably the best we can hope for at this point is that something keeps GSB and AEON ( and the apparently wavering UOB ) from following suit . . .

.

[JimGant]

Cirrus. US account - Chase Bank.

Ah, I confused you with the Brit you were responding to...

So, you had to pay the DCC spread, plus the 150bt? (plus the Chase fees). Ouch. Or do you have a Visa card riding the Cirrus network? (USAA does it that way).

[SurfRider]

"However, my last over the counter withdrawal was 'blocked' at the rate at the time (circa 53) but when the paper slip eventually found it's way, via carrier pigeon, to Nationwide the rate had improved to (circa 54)"

Can't you guys check this information on-line immediately after the transaction, like everybody else can?

For those using Bangkok Bank, they have a free SMS option that you can sign up for -- it will send a text message to your mobile phone whenever ANY transaction hits your account.

It displays the original transfer amount, the exchange rate, and the amount of Baht deposited into your Thai account.

I've heard that other Thai banks might have the SMS notification option also, but I haven't researched it.

.

[jfchandler]

For Nationwide users, an ATM withdrawal gets the rate at that instant. A counter withdrawal gets the rate the following day. So you can "win" or "lose" by doing a counter withdrawal depending on fluctuations in the exchange rate. I actually 'won' both times I did it as the pound was strengthening day by day.

Briggsy, et. al., I don't know what "the rate" you refer to is... Needless to say, banks have many different rates for different purposes.

And, since no one here has yet posted the clear, specific details of any real over-the-counter Thai bank ATM card withdrawal, it remains opinion and conjecture...

I'm guessing by "the rate," you are referring to Thai banks "buying TT" rate for exchange. But you should know, if that's the rate people are getting over-the-counter, it's clearly possible to do better than "buying TT" with a no-fee ATM machine withdrawal, as has been well-documented in this thread.

It certainly seems strange to me that we've had dozens of postings by people giving the full details of their ATM machine withdrawals. But we can't seem to get anyone to do the same for a real over-the-counter withdrawal.

--Thai bank used

--card used

--baht received

--total amount withdrawn from home bank account

--date of transaction