Correct Designation

[Guderian]

I was in a bar last night and some people I was not very involved with were discussing something that I found interesting. Legally, what is the correct designation for a person staying long-term in Thailand on a (1 year) Non-O visa (I have a retirement extension, as did at least one of the other people)? Are we residents, or tourists, or something else?

I found this interesting because the rules affecting residents and tourists are often different, both here and in my home country, the UK. For example, the tax authorities in the UK accept that I am non-resident for tax purposes as I have fulfilled their criteria for non-residency (so no UK tax on my overseas income, whoopee!) . But that doesn't necessarily make me a resident of Thailand, does it?

My car insurance in the UK has recently added a clause about people who are 'not resident' being ineligible for cover. I have a house in the UK, and I am registered with a GP, and I have a car there, so for UK car insurance purposes I feel (possibly wrongly) that I am 'resident'.

In Thailand, you can drive on an IDP for up to 90 days I believe, so there's no need to get a Thai drivers licence if you are doing 90 day visa runs then? But OTOH, to buy your car, or motorbike, or whatever, you had to go to Immigration and get a Certificate of Residence. Does that make you a resident in Thailand?

There are plenty of examples along these lines. Does anyone know for certain (rather than just having an opinion) what you should say, hand on heart, if you are asked what your status is in Thailand living here on a 1 year Non-O visa: a tourist, or a resident, or is there some other category?

[lopburi3]

Believe all you can get is opinion so will provide mine.

Be it 90 days or longer you are an alien temporarily permitted to stay in Thailand. Believe that could be translated as "temporary residence" but it is not called that in immigration act. Residence is defined by what we call Permanent Residence (PR) status.

[mmcsusnret]

Another opinion.

I think that we put ourselves (people with long stay status) into a limbo area or grey area legally. You are permitted to do it as long as you will put up with the bullstuff of doing so. You tend to get overlooked in this grouping and excluded from some benifits of your native land, even if you maintain a residence there. When (if?) you return to your native country, it will almost be as if you have risen from the grave.

Many nations seem to not understand why one would want to leave their homeland for greener pastures. And while Thailand accepts you in the grey area, you should be seen and not heard. Just spend your money, follow the changing rules and keep quiet.

[patklang]

If you are non resident in the UK you will still have to pay tax if you rent your property out and you are not allowed free healthcare in the uk unless you are living there for more than 90 days a tax year,then that would not allow you to be non resident as you in the Uk for more than 90 days and not less than 90 days.Any income you get from the uk is still taxable after your earnings exceed 5,600 gbp approx.

A non 0 does not give you any entitlements of residency in Thailand,and if you live here you will have to get a thai license/one for car and 1 for motorbike if you drive both.

[PoorSucker]

We are non-immigrants...

Whatever that means.

[davyboy]

We are non-immigrants...

Whatever that means.

Hmmm! or Aliens from another planet (country)!!!

[Briggsy]

Most countries separate 'resident' from 'resident for tax purposes' from 'holding permanent residence status'. Thailand is certainly no exception.

There are different stipulations and regulations depending on whether you hold permanent residence, extensions over 90 days, any 90 day or less visa and/or working.

So we need to know what we are talking about before deciding if we can call ourselves resident or not.

If you want a name, I'll go with Lopburi3's definition which I think is written on some of the forms.

[Texpat]

Resident - living in a place for some length of time; serving in a regular or full-time capacity.

Some people on Non-immigrant O visas have lived in Thailand for 20 or 30 years without leaving.

I find it hard to fathom how anyone would consider them tourists or non residents.

Also not sure how taxes figure into where you reside.

The non-immigrant piece of the puzzle merely reflects Thailand's reluctance to acknowledge that people that have lived here for decades are not accorded status as citizens.

Does anyone have an immigrant visa?

[Guderian]

Believe all you can get is opinion so will provide mine.

Be it 90 days or longer you are an alien temporarily permitted to stay in Thailand. Believe that could be translated as "temporary residence" but it is not called that in immigration act. Residence is defined by what we call Permanent Residence (PR) status.

Temporary residents. eh? As Poor Sucker says below, that's probably another way of saying that we're Non-Immigrants, whatever that means?

We are non-immigrants...

Whatever that means.

[Jingthing]

Well, we are residents in fact, but not residents by law. Certainly not tourists anyway, though that doesn't mean we aren't quite often treated as tourists way too long at the party.

[Guderian]

Another opinion.

I think that we put ourselves (people with long stay status) into a limbo area or grey area legally. You are permitted to do it as long as you will put up with the bullstuff of doing so. You tend to get overlooked in this grouping and excluded from some benifits of your native land, even if you maintain a residence there. When (if?) you return to your native country, it will almost be as if you have risen from the grave.

Many nations seem to not understand why one would want to leave their homeland for greener pastures. And while Thailand accepts you in the grey area, you should be seen and not heard. Just spend your money, follow the changing rules and keep quiet.

It seems a bit of a grey area to me, indeed, though potentially it is important. For example, is my UK car insurance still valid? I guess I'd better phone them up when I next go back there and check what they mean by 'resident'?

I used to have my own company in the UK. Then that renowned financial genius, Gordon Brown came up with something called IR35, which meant that the fact that I owned a limited liability company was completely ignored for tax purposes. Three hundred years of tax law, and arguably the vehicle that formed the basis for the birth of modern capitalism, were chucked out at a stroke. My employee/employer status was basically open to whatever interpretation the Inland Revenue chose to give it, and as it turned out, that did not have to be consistent between tax inspectors or over time. It was these continually moving goalposts that finally did for my UK business, and so I left to live in Thailand.

I'm beginning to think that the status of people like myself living in Thailand on a Non-O may be similar - whomever you deal with will probably invent the definition that suits them best at the time. That wouldn't surprise me at all coming from the Thais, but I suspect (based on past experience with IR35) that the same thing would probably happen in the UK.

[Guderian]

Resident - living in a place for some length of time; serving in a regular or full-time capacity.

Some people on Non-immigrant O visas have lived in Thailand for 20 or 30 years without leaving.

I find it hard to fathom how anyone would consider them tourists or non residents.

Also not sure how taxes figure into where you reside.

The non-immigrant piece of the puzzle merely reflects Thailand's reluctance to acknowledge that people that have lived here for decades are not accorded status as citizens.

Does anyone have an immigrant visa?

My understanding of the local tax liability of somebody living in Thailand who is not legally a resident or Thai citizen is that the Thais are not interested in your income arising outside the country as long as it is not remitted into Thailand during the tax year that you receive it. Of course, if you have a business in Thailand you have to pay tax here, but if you have stashed your folding spendable stuff away in an offshore account, then they don't care about it. It's a very nice situation for people who earn a lot from investments and so can avoid being taxed either in their home country or here.

I think that mmcsusnret is on to something with his advice here:

...while Thailand accepts you in the grey area, you should be seen and not heard. Just spend your money, follow the changing rules and keep quiet.

[Guderian]

Well, we are residents in fact, but not residents by law. Certainly not tourists anyway, though that doesn't mean we aren't quite often treated as tourists way too long at the party.

Sounds right, but in any genuine argument/dispute with the authorities or with a company (either here or back in the Waste), surely it's only the legal position that counts? In other words we are not residents in Thailand. I'm not resident in the UK for tax purposes, but that is only one (rather exact) definition of UK residency. The NHS uses a common law definition (in theory, at least) - Eligibility for free treatment. I expect that the car insurance company probably uses whatever definition will suit its own purposes.

[harrry]

The expensive scheme TOT has for long term retirement visas seemed to refer to them as long term tourists. I have heard this term used in several outlets.

[Mario2008]

Different laws have different definition of who is considered a resident or not.