2 Former Expats Arrested

[MisterMan]

<h2 class="cN-headingPage prepend-5 span-11 last">http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/return-to-phuket-turns-into-holiday-from-hel_l-20090519-be71.html

</h2><h2 class="cN-headingPage prepend-5 span-11 last">Return to Phuket turns into holiday from hel_l</h2> 'Stung for $60,000' ... Logan Hesse.

Geoff Strong

May 20, 2009 - 3:38PM It seemed like a good idea to return to paradise. That was the memory a Melbourne-based American couple had of the Thai holiday island Phuket where they used to live.

When they did return for a short holiday early last month, it became a holiday in hel_l.

After a night in prison plus $60,000 in mysterious payments through a Kafkaesque legal system, it was a very expensive hel_l too.

Logan Hesse and Urica Lopez met in Phuket four years ago where they were both working.

In May 2007, the house they were living in burnt down while they were out to dinner with friends.

Mr Hesse says police investigators told them at the time the cause was an electrical fault.

Soon afterwards, they left Thailand to come to Melbourne where they were enrolled as students at La Trobe University.

Mr Hesse revealed his story yesterday following revelations Melbourne tourist Annice Smoel faced jail on the island over the theft of a beer mat.

He believes such cases are due to a tourism downturn because of the global financial crisis and recent civil unrest.

These had bitten into the usual source of "supplementary income" for Phuket's police and other officials, Mr Hesse claims.

"Their pockets are lighter so they are turning on tourists," he said.

Mr Hesse said nothing more had been heard about their house fire until they arrived at Bangkok last month. They were immediately detained and their passports were confiscated by police who told them a Phuket arrest warrant was outstanding for "criminal damage".

The costs started piling up from that point.

The couple were expected to cover the $265 price of an air ticket for a police officer to accompany them on to their island destination.

In Phuket, they were refused permission to speak directly to the US embassy and were slapped in jail for the night.

Their problems were compounded by arriving at the start of the Thai New Year, when all officaldom shuts down for a week.

Although the initial police investigation found an electrical fault was the cause of the fire, a subsequent report some months later changed the cause to a cigarette, even thought they were out at the time.

The house owner was pursuing them for $60,000 in a civil action.

Under Thai law, the civil action had to be resolved before any criminal trial could take place, so they were unable to leave.

Mr Hesse said this could have meant waiting in Thailand for years with no source of income.

The lawyer who claimed he had been appointed by the US embassy then tried to pocket $7000 until they made a fuss in his office.

The pair then negotiated with the house owner to reduce his claim to $50,000 and a further $1500 went to the police to have the matter heard expeditiously.

"In court the judges didn't even speak to us. We just had to hand over a wad of money to the landlord and we were fined 10,000 baht ($380) for criminal damage," Mr Hesse said.

"We were never able to find if the house was insured.

"I think the landlord was able to organise a second fire investigation, either because he had no insurance or he was under pressure from the bank.

"They knew we would come back because we had friends [in Thailand]."

Mr Hesse said he and Ms Lopez had set up a blog to tell their tale and hopefully recoup some of their total $60,000 in costs from sympathisers.

The revelations follow a case earlier this year when a British man in Thailand was shackled and jailed for three weeks for ''being rude to officials".

Source: hwww.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/return-to-phuket-turns-into-holiday-from-hel_l-20090519-be71.html

[steelepulse]

The good news for Phuket's tourism industry keeps rolling in.

[fiddlehead]

It is my guess that they couldn't make a big splash while they here because they were afraid of getting detained again.

So, they waited until they went back home just a week or so ago.

I saw Logan while he was here visiting and was also appalled at this story.

Once again, corruption is going to keep tourists away.

Obviously the powers that be here in Phuket are more into their own self interests than justice.

[MisterMan]

I had a link to the story in THE AGE but the link had the H word so it was modified to hel_l which of course rendered the link invalivd. I tried to edit it but was refused permission.

http://tinyurl.com/p9htv9

Here is the link.

[stevenl]

I know back home the house owner is supposed to have insurance, but I always thought here the renter/lessee is supposed to have the insurance (I do for the shop anyway).

If that is the case, that means they had to pay the landlord, cigarette or electrical.

[barky]

It's business as usual SOP here. Quite a number of the locals, often in collusion with the corrupt cops will always invent ways to extort money from westeners. You would think by now the word would have got around among visitors to give Thailand a miss, but the mind set of "these things only happen to other people" ensures there will be plenty of other suckers, sorry visitors, entering the country to keep the local economy going.

[thaiwanderer]

extortion?????

hesse and logan were found guilty and are now telling their ludicrous story whilst begging for money

[steelepulse]

>>extortion?????

>>hesse and logan were found guilty and are now telling their ludicrous story whilst begging for money

I don't know anyone here that doesn't have a decent house without house insurance.  

Extortion or not, these people's backs were up against the wall and instead of fighting on and paying more and more money, they decided to cut their losses.  What would you have done thaiwanderer given their circumstances?

[geriatrickid]

I know back home the house owner is supposed to have insurance, but I always thought here the renter/lessee is supposed to have the insurance (I do for the shop anyway).

If that is the case, that means they had to pay the landlord, cigarette or electrical.

You're right. Tenants Legal Liability or Fire Legal Liability, included in the Property damage insuring section or as a separate insuring section. It covers the physical damage to that part of the rented premises you occupy and are legally liable for.The balance of the liability policy is in respect to third party liability where you are responsible for bodily injury or property damage to others.

Doesn't matter the cause of fire if the fire starts within the leased/rented premises if the lease says the tenant is responsible for the property that is rented or leased. The tenant would still have to pay for the damage in the demised premises and then pursue the owner of the building if negligence or responsibility for the cause of loss could be proven. Some owners will insure the property, but if the owner's insurer pays for damage it would subrogate against the tenant to collect what it paid out. The situation regarding the recovery of losses due to the fire is found in western countries as well.

As sympathetic as I am to the couple, I have a feeling they figured it would all go away. Tenants every year leave landlords with uninsured losses or damaged premises. Tenant has to accept responsibility since the property was in its care control and custody. Same approach applies imn the west.

How the situation was handled is a totally dfferent story and brings the Thai legal system up to ridicule.

[thaiwanderer]

>>extortion?????

>>hesse and logan were found guilty and are now telling their ludicrous story whilst begging for money

I don't know anyone here that doesn't have a decent house without house insurance.

Extortion or not, these people's backs were up against the wall and instead of fighting on and paying more and more money, they decided to cut their losses. What would you have done thaiwanderer given their circumstances?

for a start i would not be in their circumstances

even they could have avoided the problems quite easily

they cut their losses but are now whingeing (personally i hate that anyway - most of the times farang gets in a spot of bother its always only about 'Thai corruption / system' or whatever - never any consideration as to personal responsibility of farang who pleads being the victim)

they are now hoping others will absorb the loss out of sympathy or some stupid farang comradre

(also, part of their stated reasons for not seeing it through was to get back to their student loans??????)

as to OP - why story not in gazette - i'm not sure but didn't the non-firestarting gentleman work for another phuket publication?

[Jingthing]

I have never ever heard of a renter being liable for a fire short of arson. I don't rent here but you just provided more reasons for us to buy rather than rent. I have a lot of sympathy for this couple, I do think they were shafted, I do think they had no reasonable choice but to plead guilty so that plea is MEANINGLESS (as are most in Thailand). However, I don't think they have a chance of recovering much money with that blog. They are hardly starving children in Africa. They are young Americans and most of the world thinks such people are on easy street. They may have had a good chance for a book/movie deal if they had spent 10 years in Thai prison but happily for them that didn't happen. This country is truly a mine field. To the rednecks who say som na na, I say there by the grace of God go you ...

Edited May 20, 2009 by Jingthing

[MisterMan]

extortion?????

hesse and logan were found guilty and are now telling their ludicrous story whilst begging for money

YOu mean URica and Logan? They were free to leave the country after it happened.. and were not liable the first time around.!!!!!! Many places burn due to electrical wiring here. ..

[thaiwanderer]

extortion?????

hesse and logan were found guilty and are now telling their ludicrous story whilst begging for money

YOu mean URica and Logan? They were free to leave the country after it happened.. and were not liable the first time around.!!!!!! Many places burn due to electrical wiring here. ..

sorry on names maybe should have put farang man and farang girl

by their account they were 'allowed' to leave originally

subsequently they were found guilty

[mrukman]

Lets be honest thailands reputation is in tatters now and instead of rooting out the problems and dealing with them thet will simply stick there head in tha sand with the answear dont worry its just a farrang there are many more. Well the latest nail was the aussie threatened with 2 years in jail for stealing a beer mat. Well done patong and the aussie bar why did the aussie owner press charge's then realising the damage to his bars from other aussies retract his statement ??? to late mate damage done. Even in the uk we know the unfriendly beermat aussie bar. Can anyone tell me 10 good things about phuket and i will double it with the problems your minister will never address to tempt tourists back.

[thaiwanderer]

Lets be honest thailands reputation is in tatters now and instead of rooting out the problems and dealing with them thet will simply stick there head in tha sand with the answear dont worry its just a farrang there are many more. Well the latest nail was the aussie threatened with 2 years in jail for stealing a beer mat. Well done patong and the aussie bar why did the aussie owner press charge's then realising the damage to his bars from other aussies retract his statement ??? to late mate damage done. Even in the uk we know the unfriendly beermat aussie bar. Can anyone tell me 10 good things about phuket and i will double it with the problems your minister will never address to tempt tourists back.

reputation now in tatters - please!

one good thing - people who need to make lists of merits or problems will overemphasise stories like these

[steelepulse]

>>for a start i would not be in their circumstances

Does that mean that you would never rent a house in Thailand, or that you would rent a house with no electricity? Or would you have renters insurance and after the fire was declared an electrical accident, you would double up your renters insurance in case you came back to Thailand and were no found to have started the fire by a new arson investigator that was in the landlord's pocket?

Added:  Personally I don't like the whinging or begging either, but that's besides the point.

Edited May 21, 2009 by steelepulse

[fiddlehead]

>>for a start i would not be in their circumstances

Does that mean that you would never rent a house in Thailand, or that you would rent a house with no electricity? Or would you have renters insurance and after the fire was declared an electrical accident, you would double up your renters insurance in case you came back to Thailand and were no found to have started the fire by a new arson investigator that was in the landlord's pocket?

Added:  Personally I don't like the whinging or begging either, but that's besides the point.

Yes, i think the point is that this happened to them because they were farang. Pure and simple IMO.

A Thai person would've fought it and probably won.

The crooks here (most likely) assumed the farangs didn't have time to fight it and the landlord could recoup some easy money.

I didn't know that they were begging for money. I remember a fund raiser was held by some of their close friends and the word never went public (to Logan and Urica's wishes) I think it is more about moral support between good friends. Perhaps in Australia they are crying poverty but they certainly didn't do that here.

[kennkate]

I have never ever heard of a renter being liable for a fire short of arson. I don't rent here but you just provided more reasons for us to buy rather than rent. I have a lot of sympathy for this couple, I do think they were shafted, I do think they had no reasonable choice but to plead guilty so that plea is MEANINGLESS (as are most in Thailand). However, I don't think they have a chance of recovering much money with that blog. They are hardly starving children in Africa. They are young Americans and most of the world thinks such people are on easy street. They may have had a good chance for a book/movie deal if they had spent 10 years in Thai prison but happily for them that didn't happen. This country is truly a mine field. To the rednecks who say som na na, I say there by the grace of God go you ...

Spot on jingthing As for liability I would have thought the Landlord should have the place Insured If the place was to be rented then Insurance should be obtained to include that liability

I did rent a House in the UK fully Insured as a Let property. The House was Gutted quite a bad fire.

My Tennant was seen runing away from the property.

My Insurance Paid to have the property repaired cost £23000 That is over 1 Million Baht 10 Years ago now.

Point is it IS the Owners responsablity.

The Insurance company did Not pursue the Tennant They told me it was piontless. Arson would have to be proven in court.

If it was, Recovery of losses from a person with little or no money = pointlessIs

Is that cover available in Thailand ?? No money = Jail.

That will not get the property Fixed only GOOD Insurance will do that. Or Extortion

[stevenl]

extortion?????

hesse and logan were found guilty and are now telling their ludicrous story whilst begging for money

YOu mean URica and Logan? They were free to leave the country after it happened.. and were not liable the first time around.!!!!!! Many places burn due to electrical wiring here. ..

Well, they left the country, probably before everything could be sorted out properly. But also at that time they were liable for the damages to the house. They were renting, so they were liable.

[stevenl]

I have never ever heard of a renter being liable for a fire short of arson. I don't rent here but you just provided more reasons for us to buy rather than rent. I have a lot of sympathy for this couple, I do think they were shafted, I do think they had no reasonable choice but to plead guilty so that plea is MEANINGLESS (as are most in Thailand). However, I don't think they have a chance of recovering much money with that blog. They are hardly starving children in Africa. They are young Americans and most of the world thinks such people are on easy street. They may have had a good chance for a book/movie deal if they had spent 10 years in Thai prison but happily for them that didn't happen. This country is truly a mine field. To the rednecks who say som na na, I say there by the grace of God go you ...

Spot on jingthing As for liability I would have thought the Landlord should have the place Insured If the place was to be rented then Insurance should be obtained to include that liability

I did rent a House in the UK fully Insured as a Let property. The House was Gutted quite a bad fire.

My Tennant was seen runing away from the property.

My Insurance Paid to have the property repaired cost £23000 That is over 1 Million Baht 10 Years ago now.

Point is it IS the Owners responsablity.

The Insurance company did Not pursue the Tennant They told me it was piontless. Arson would have to be proven in court.

If it was, Recovery of losses from a person with little or no money = pointlessIs

Is that cover available in Thailand ?? No money = Jail.

That will not get the property Fixed only GOOD Insurance will do that. Or Extortion

Yes, back home the owner is responsible, in Thailand not, the tenant is responsible. Since we are in Thailand, and they were renting in Thailand, a story of how things went in the UK is not applicable here.

[stevenl]

>>for a start i would not be in their circumstances

Does that mean that you would never rent a house in Thailand, or that you would rent a house with no electricity? Or would you have renters insurance and after the fire was declared an electrical accident, you would double up your renters insurance in case you came back to Thailand and were no found to have started the fire by a new arson investigator that was in the landlord's pocket?

Added:  Personally I don't like the whinging or begging either, but that's besides the point.

Simply insure the house you';re renting, and it is no problem. Not like back home only the contents of the house, but you also have to insure for the 'hardware'.

The cause of the fire is irrelevant, the were renting so they were responsible.

[steelepulse]

>>Simply insure the house you';re renting, and it is no problem. Not like back home only the contents of the house, but you also have to insure for the 'hardware'.

The cause of the fire is irrelevant, the were renting so they were responsible.

Really?  So all of these mysterious shophouse fires on Bangla will have to be paid for by the tenants that were renting the shop?  Sounds like a great racket if you own a dilapidated building, have tenants and need some cash.

I'm really surprised that we don't hear of my houses burning down that are rentals.

[kennkate]

So Steveni would this be on the rental aggrement.? Maybe a person renting could look ?

I am sure 99% of renters would not be aware they that the insurance of the building was down to them.

If it is on the rental agreement That would be fair comment.

[stevenl]

So Steveni would this be on the rental aggrement.? Maybe a person renting could look ?

I am sure 99% of renters would not be aware they that the insurance of the building was down to them.

If it is on the rental agreement That would be fair comment.

No, not necessary on the rental agreement, because it is the law. Again, that is what I was told a long time ago, and I therefor have insured the shop I'm renting. The house is no problem, if that goes it will be cheap enough to rebuild.

Really? So all of these mysterious shophouse fires on Bangla will have to be paid for by the tenants that were renting the shop? Sounds like a great racket if you own a dilapidated building, have tenants and need some cash.

If the landlord were responsible, he only needs to insure and collect, so what is the difference? I don't see any racket here (well, of course things like this are tried all over the world every day).

I'm really surprised that we don't hear of my houses burning down that are rentals.

Maybe because the tenants don't have insurance? Edited May 21, 2009 by stevenl

[steelepulse]

QUOTE Really? So all of these mysterious shophouse fires on Bangla will have to be paid for by the tenants that were renting the shop? Sounds like a great racket if you own a dilapidated building, have tenants and need some cash.

If the landlord were responsible, he only needs to insure and collect, so what is the difference? I don't see any racket here (well, of course things like this are tried all over the world every day).

I see a nice racket.  Collect from insurance and demand payment from the tenant.

QUOTE 

I'm really surprised that we don't hear of my houses burning down that are rentals.

Maybe because the tenants don't have insurance?

Who cares whether they have insurance or not? Demand payment and take tenants  to court while you collect from your insurance company.  I'd be willing to bet 100 baht that's what happened in regards to the original post.

[stevenl]

I'd be willing to bet 100 baht that's what happened in regards to the original post.

You daredevil. If the landlord is Thai, which I presume he is and the house they were renting is a normal Thai style bungalow, I guess the landlord did not have any insurance at all.

Demand payment and take tenants to court while you collect from your insurance company.

That won't work, not even in Thailand.

BTW, your posts would be easier to read if you would use the 'quote function' that is why it is available.

[ThaivisaInsurance]

The simple fact is in Thailand the tenant is responsible.

However the plus points are property insurance is not expensive and will include your private items e.g. computers/laptops etc

Thai Visa Insurance can offer various plans to cover all eventualities. Please email your requirements :

http://insurance.thaivisa.com/quote-form

[Maestro]

Topic title changed from “Why Was This Story Not In The Gazette, 2 former expats arrested (story was in the Phuket Post )” to ”2 former expats arrested”

It is futile to ask ThaiVisa members why a certain story is not published in a certain publication. Such question should be addressed to the editor of the publication.

--

Maestro

[torrenova]

The simple fact is in Thailand the tenant is responsible.

However the plus points are property insurance is not expensive and will include your private items e.g. computers/laptops etc

Thai Visa Insurance can offer various plans to cover all eventualities. Please email your requirements :

http://insurance.thaivisa.com/quote-form

I guess that not one single Thai who rents property out thinks that he should insure his own asset.

I wonder who they try to screw over when they have a void period ? the last tenant ? on the grounds that if they had not moved out then they would have been liable ? or the next tenant ? on the grounds that had they moved in sooner then they would have been liable ?

[stevenl]

The simple fact is in Thailand the tenant is responsible.

However the plus points are property insurance is not expensive and will include your private items e.g. computers/laptops etc

Thai Visa Insurance can offer various plans to cover all eventualities. Please email your requirements :

http://insurance.thaivisa.com/quote-form

I guess that not one single Thai who rents property out thinks that he should insure his own asset.

I wonder who they try to screw over when they have a void period ? the last tenant ? on the grounds that if they had not moved out then they would have been liable ? or the next tenant ? on the grounds that had they moved in sooner then they would have been liable ?

Now this is a nice contribution that adds something to the discussion.