Thai Wife Of Foreigner Property Owner?

[Teddy3943]

What I understand is that a Thai wife of a farang cannot buy real estate property using the money from her husband, this would be illegal. But if the deed is already registered on her name she can act as follows:

O.k. presume that the present home and land is bought with money coming from the farang husband. If the owner (the name on the document, being the wife's name) sells the property the money goes to the owner (wether legal or not), which is the wife of the farang. The third party buyer could offer two or three times the value of the property and has a paper signed that he/she has received this amount. If she buys back the same property for the same amount she is from that moment on the legal owner, because she buys with her own money. The original amount, coming from the farang husband, needed to purchase the property is now only a fraction of the present value on paper. The only thing she has to settle is an agreement with her husband about the money needed for the first transaction, but this is not a matter of property ownership but simply a financial agreement between the spouses.

Would this solve the problem, Thai wife of farang having legal ownership of the property?

[Crossy]

Edited because Monty's post below is far more succinct than my feeble effort

[monty]

This has been discussed in a very long thread which we just closed.

As of now, until further updates, it is NOT illegal for a Thai wife from a foreign husband to own land.

The only thing which has to be done, is that the foreigner needs to sign the paper that the money used is hers and not his. They have a special form for this purpose. It would be entirely up to him if he gifted said money to her.

As long as that paper has been signed when she acquired the land, she will be all clear.

Do note that he has to sign this paper even if she is buying it with her own actual money!

If the wife neglects to mention the land registration department that she is married, and as such also the above mentioned paper is not signed by her husband, then she might run into problems if she gets checked and cannot prove she bought it with her own money.

[thaiwanderer]

and where a Thai wife buys or owns land (having cleared hurdle of 'her money'), the land office may refuse to register a lease to the farang husband

[Pierrot]

???

Edited May 29, 2009 by Pierrot

[thaiwanderer]

whats not to understand?

and where a Thai wife buys or owns land (having cleared hurdle of 'her money'), the land office may refuse to register a lease to the farang husband

[likewise]

I keep on reading about Thai wife, but how does this work when you and girlfriend are not legally married?

[alfieconn]

This has been discussed in a very long thread which we just closed.

As long as that paper has been signed when she acquired the land, she will be all clear.

What is the purpose of this paper being signed ? is it so that the farang has no recourse over the land in the future ?

Edited May 30, 2009 by alfieconn

[Crossy]

As long as that paper has been signed when she acquired the land, she will be all clear.[/b]

What is the purpose of this paper being signed ? is it so that the farang has no recourse over the land in the future ?

Pretty much yes.

Here's a link to the document http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/redirect.php...onfirmation.jpg

If you look in the closed thread here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2769361 , next post to last contains information from Isaanlawyers explaining in some detail what it's all about.

[meom]

I keep on reading about Thai wife, but how does this work when you and girlfriend are not legally married?

In that case you can just give her the money and she can do with it whatever she wants. If the relation turns sour not much chance to get anything back though.

[likewise]

I think there is still the possibily to make up a lease between girlfriend and yourself?

[alfieconn]

As long as that paper has been signed when she acquired the land, she will be all clear.[/b]

What is the purpose of this paper being signed ? is it so that the farang has no recourse over the land in the future ?

Pretty much yes.

Here's a link to the document http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/redirect.php...onfirmation.jpg

If you look in the closed thread here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2769361 , next post to last contains information from Isaanlawyers explaining in some detail what it's all about.

If thats the case, how can a farang take his girlfriend/wife to court for his share of the property and come out with 50% as has happened in many cases, perhaps Issan lawyers have the answer.

1. If he signed the paper he has no recourse.

2. If he didn't sign the paper the transaction is illegal.

[Thailand]

I think there is still the possibily to make up a lease between girlfriend and yourself?

And I believe between a farang and his Thai wife also?

Edited May 30, 2009 by Thailand

[patklang]

What I understand is that a Thai wife of a farang cannot buy real estate property using the money from her husband, this would be illegal. But if the deed is already registered on her name she can act as follows:

O.k. presume that the present home and land is bought with money coming from the farang husband. If the owner (the name on the document, being the wife's name) sells the property the money goes to the owner (wether legal or not), which is the wife of the farang. The third party buyer could offer two or three times the value of the property and has a paper signed that he/she has received this amount. If she buys back the same property for the same amount she is from that moment on the legal owner, because she buys with her own money. The original amount, coming from the farang husband, needed to purchase the property is now only a fraction of the present value on paper. The only thing she has to settle is an agreement with her husband about the money needed for the first transaction, but this is not a matter of property ownership but simply a financial agreement between the spouses.

Would this solve the problem, Thai wife of farang having legal ownership of the property?

Apprently the thai owner is not allowed to purchase a house with her farangs money so its illegal and she canot sell the house,the government take it.

BLOODY AWFUL IF YOU ASK ME

[patklang]

I keep on reading about Thai wife, but how does this work when you and girlfriend are not legally married?

In that case you can just give her the money and she can do with it whatever she wants. If the relation turns sour not much chance to get anything back though.

You can have a life term partnership agreement and do a will too,that protects both parties.

[likewise]

Thanks Patklang. I suppose a life term partnership agreement is made up at a lawyer's office?

[thaiwanderer]

There is NO magic trick to circumvent / avoid the (general) prohibition on farangs owning Thai land.

No matter how clever you think you are being or how layered / at arm's length you make the ownership structure the simple fact is that to the extent that a farang (correctly or otherwise) belives they are the beneficial owner and or controller of Thai land they are to the same extent technically in breach of the law as are the Thai/s holding the land on their behalf.

It is of course feasable to use a Thai (girlfriend, wife, friend, lawyer, gardenener, professional nominee, company) to hold the land on a farang's behalf and such mechanisms can be strengthened and or disguised to varying degrees.

The recent BS proclamation that a mia farang could be stripped of property bought with her husbands money is simply incorrect so there is no need to avoid that particular element (for that reason anyhow).

If you wish to benefit from Thai land choose the mechanism that you understand and are comfortable with but do not kid yourself that you have solved the issue and 'own' it. Certainty is not for sale, and long may that be so.

[TerryTibbs]

The smartest move anyone can take when considering signing a legal document to say that you have gifted thousands of pounds to someone with the hope that you are both going to live happily ever after is to completely forget the idea and keep your money in your bank, but in all honesty it shouldn't even have to be said.

[monty]

If thats the case, how can a farang take his girlfriend/wife to court for his share of the property and come out with 50% as has happened in many cases, perhaps Issan lawyers have the answer.

1. If he signed the paper he has no recourse.

2. If he didn't sign the paper the transaction is illegal.

Because each and every case I know of involves a house as well.

The land you cannot and will not own. Ever. That's what the paper you sign for is, and it is to satisfy the Thai law on foreigners holding land.

But you CAN own anything on the land, including a house. If you apply for a building permit in your name, the house book will later on show you as the owner.

Now under Thai law, anything bought after marriage is common property (sin somros). Which is the reason you have to sign the paper, to keep the land solely the property of the wife, to keep it out of the sin somros. Without that paper you would own at least 50% of the land which would be in breach of the respective land holding laws.

In case of a divorce you still have the right on 50% of the house, especially if you can prove you paid for it! Now it seems that the value of the land and the house seldom are separated, so you end up getting 50% of the whole lot. Either the judge can't be bothered or the wife doesn't have proper legal representation.

Or it can be said that you bought the house with assets you acquired before your marriage, which when proven would exclude the house from the sin somros and you would have 100% rights to it. Probably the judges do the 50% thing to keep everybody happy and to avoid lengthy legal battles.

The above pertains married couples.

If it is just girlfriend, it would likely be different. The land is entirely hers, you do not need to sign the paper, since as you are not married you'd never be entitled to 50% of it after separating anyway. Again, if you lease the land from her, and you build a house on it under your own name, then the house is 100% yours. It would then depend on the lease contract what subsequently could happen. Different scenario altogether and practically nothing to do with this topic, as the whole thing is to do with legal Thai wives holding land.

[Burgernev]

Or it can be said that you bought the house with assets you acquired before your marriage, which when proven would exclude the house from the sin somros and you would have 100% rights to it.

Yes, 100% rights to your initial outlay, but wife would be entitled to 50% of any increase of house value, during marriage, over and above that initial outlay.

Same same if you bought over say 100k USD and invested in a business, if at time of divorce that business is worth 300k USD, wife is entitled to 50% of the gain, ie: 50% of the 200k.

Someone correct me if that's wrong please.

Burgernev

Edited May 31, 2009 by Burgernev

[monty]

Or it can be said that you bought the house with assets you acquired before your marriage, which when proven would exclude the house from the sin somros and you would have 100% rights to it.

Yes, 100% rights to your initial outlay, but wife would be entitled to 50% of any increase of house value, during marriage, over and above that initial outlay.

Same same if you bought over say 100k USD and invested in a business, if at time of divorce that business is worth 300k USD, wife is entitled to 50% of the gain, ie: 50% of the 200k.

Someone correct me if that's wrong please.

Burgernev

Very correct!

Everything earned by either party during the marriage is considered sin somros (common property).

Not sure however on the value of the land, it is bought 100% with the money of the wife (the paper you signed), but according to the sin somros laws, any raise in value should be 50% owned by the husband! According to the laws pertaining to land ownership you can't own bugger all of it!

That is why I wrote, in many cases the wife isn't really well represented legally, and judges tend to just split up 50/50, regardless whether you paid for the house with cash earned before the marriage, and regardless of the fact that legally you can't be entitled to any percentage of the land!

IMO a pretty fair trade of! She ends up with a half house she probably legally is not entitled to, end you end up with half the land your are definitely not entitled to!

[flying]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/forum/viewtopic...p;t=2120#p39962

Foreigners cannot use a Thai spouse as a nominee to buy property in Thailand, however.

“If the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds,” he said.

[monty]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/forum/viewtopic...p;t=2120#p39962

Foreigners cannot use a Thai spouse as a nominee to buy property in Thailand, however.

“If the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds,” he said.

Again as per the closed thread:

The official who uttered the above forgot to mention something at the end of his sentence (OR it got lost in translation!).

It is entirely correct the above, but should be followed by:

Unless the foreign husband signs the form, provided by the land and house department, which states that the wife used her own money (from whatever source) and that the foreign husband has no claim whatsoever to the land.

If you relinquish any claim towards the property, then per definition your wife is not a nominee!

And what the official stated lacks any believability since a foreigner would not need a nominee to own a home. Any foreigner can own a home, with his name in the house book as owner.

He cannot however own the land the house is standing on! He can lease it, rent it and build on it! That is where the special form provided by Land and House comes into play.

[flying]

Again as per the closed thread:

Unless the foreign husband signs the form, provided by the land and house department, which states that the wife used her own money (from whatever source) and that the foreign husband has no claim whatsoever to the land.

Thanks I did not see that.

I just saw this article today in the BP

So technically if the wife is using her own money....& the source is the husband then it will not or cannot be revoked? As long as he has signed off any claim to the lands?

Thanks

[monty]

Correct.

This is the form:

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/images/letter%...onfirmation.jpg

It does not literally state that it is her money, but it clearly states that the land is NOT part of the Sin Somros, or the common matrimonial property, but rather her own personal property.

As such she can never be considered a nominee, as per definition a nominee holds/owns something on somebody else his behalf!

[Arkady]

If it is just girlfriend, it would likely be different. The land is entirely hers, you do not need to sign the paper, since as you are not married you'd never be entitled to 50% of it after separating anyway. Again, if you lease the land from her, and you build a house on it under your own name, then the house is 100% yours. It would then depend on the lease contract what subsequently could happen. Different scenario altogether and practically nothing to do with this topic, as the whole thing is to do with legal Thai wives holding land.

This is not correct. The form that needs to be signed states that the money used to purchase the land is the property of the Thai spouse who is either lawfully married or not lawfully married and that the land will not form part of the conjugal property. The Thai phrase “registered/unregistered spouses” on the form, “koo somrot doy chorp rue mi chorp duay kotmai” also appears in The Nationality Act and ministerial regulations relating to that Act but does not appear in the Civil and Commercial Code. Essentially this appears to mean that, while common law marriage is not recognized in the Civil and Commercial Code for purposes of divorce, inheritance etc, it is recognized for issues relating to nationality and by the Land Dept. The Land Dept’s website further gives an example (in Thai) of a Thai woman they successfully prosecuted for failing to disclose when she purchased land that she was the common law wife of a foreigner. The Land Dept claims they forced the sale of the land, in accordance with the Land Code, since she was deemed to have acted as a nominee for a foreigner.

The explanatory notes in Thai that accompanied the form when it was first issued explained that, since there were now very many cases of Thai citizens with foreign spouses applying to transfer land to their names, the work of the Land Department in checking that the Thai spouses were using their own financial resources to purchase the land had become extremely burdensome. The Department had therefore decided to issue the form to simplify the work of officials and create uniformity of treatment in those cases that Thais with foreign spouses applied to transfer land to themselves. The effect seemed to be that by signing the form, the Land Dept would not investigate the sources of funds and that giving money to a Thai lawfully married spouse or cohabitee to buy land would be “whitewashed”. I doubt that anything has changed here as it seems to be a very practical solution for the Land Dept and avoids the ludicrous controversy about whether a Thai citizen can accept a gift or not, while ensuring that the land is irrevocably owned by Thai citizens. The Land Code can still theoretically be interpreted to mean that it is illegal for a Thai to buy land with money provided by a foreign spouse. The intent in the Land Code is clearly to prevent foreigners acquiring land through nominees in any shape or form and there is no reference in it or any of the ministerial regulations to the suggestion often made in TV that the government's concern mainly relates to what happens in the event of the divorce of foreigner and a Thai citizen who owns land paid for by the foreigner. But I assume that the gist of the recent remark by a senior official covered in the closed thread should really be interpreted to mean that it is not lawful for the Thai spouse of a foreigner to buy land without both spouses signing the declaration. Nevertheless, it would be prudent to keep monitoring the section of the Land Dept’s website relating to purchases of property by foreigners to see if any new ministerial regulations are being issued: http://www.dol.go.th/. Unfortunately most of it is not translated into English.

A related issue that is rarely touched on is whether a gift by a foreigner (or anyone else) to a Thai spouse is taxable or not. I would think that in the case of a gift to a common law wife at least the Revenue Dept would have a strong case to charge income tax.

[flying]

Correct.

This is the form:

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/images/letter%...onfirmation.jpg

It does not literally state that it is her money, but it clearly states that the land is NOT part of the Sin Somros, or the common matrimonial property, but rather her own personal property.

As such she can never be considered a nominee, as per definition a nominee holds/owns something on somebody else his behalf!

Thanks Monty!

[lounger]

Surely what it boils down to is that any foreigner in dispute with his wife will draw attention to himself and their financial dealings. Any dispute is acrimoniuus and leads to interpretation over division of spoils. The land Dept is saying the legal logical situation (Tort in UK) does not apply as it goes against constitutional law. The recent announcement helps put the constitutional law ( foreigners cannot own land) back in first place.

So if I keep my head down, am I safe from investigation?

[DaveYo]

Issue about Foreigners owning land in Thailand. I am sure many foreigners are trying to do the right thing regarding of their spouses security. However, this is my personal opinion, Thailand does not ever want any foreigner to own any kind of property in their country and this has been quite pointed out many times over the years. I suggest to all foreigners to not buy any kind of property in Thailand, not even loan it to your wife, or give to your wife, because if the relationship fails, you will lose your millions of Baht period. This is not even an investment, it is a take by the Thai itself, because they know the law.

You can only own three things in Thailand. A car fully paid, a condo fully paid, or a motorcycle fully paid > all in your own name. No loan involved. Anything else all foreigners will lose their money. The Thai system is designed for foreigners to lose at the end. Foreigners have very little rights in Thailand if any for any kind of legal redress. A condo is by far very difficult to sell since it is very hard to find foreign buyers. Investment in Thailand forget it. Everything is geared to Thai security.

Don't kid yourself, and keep your money in your foreign bank and use it wisely. No joint accounts and if you have a bank account, make sure it is a foreign bank account solely owned by you. You can designate a beneficiary, but make sure it is going to someone else and not a Thai, or there will be a huge fight after your dead. For a retirement visa all you need is proof that you qualify for the visa once a year.

As I have seen here in this forum, you marry a Thai she owns half of your property or assets etc. and it only applies to Thailand. The Thai law does not extend to foreign countries. If married, buy only what you need to live on, buy only what you need for comfort, and always keep that car-motocycle-condo title in your name and to no one else. You bought it pure and simple in your name and paid for it in full. When time to leave you can always sell it and get some of your money back into your pocket and not to anyone else. Most Thai people live on credit here, and they are very bad with credit to say the least and do not have such cash or bank accounts that foreigners have outside of Thailand. When the relationship goes bad, she will get half and if possible clean you out. Not good.

If you bring property into Thailand, don't get married stay single and get a retirement visa for long term stay and have fun with the people. Keep your problems down to a minimum. Don't stay in Thailand until you die, because your property will be taken by unknown people. They have a free for all over here once a foreigner dies. Even if you leave a will, the Thai will ignore it, as it has really no legal standing in Thailand. So leave while you can and ship your property back home before some major sickness or injury prevents you of going home.

There are many things they will not tell you, so always be on guard and always question the motives and never let it down. When in doubt, get away from it.

My advise to foreigners, mind your own personal business, stay within the law, leave the Thais alone, let the Thai people deal with issues within themselves, and be nice to them and be friendly and have fun. Don't get involved in anything illegal. When you have had enough of your fun in Thailand, then go home. There is nothing better than going back home to your origins. Your country is the ONLY one going to support you in the long run, not Thailand.

As for land property FORGET IT. Don't even think or dream you will ever own that property, because it will never ever happen. Don't think about a business itself or a business property either, because you will not own the business fully, as the law says, it must be majority owned by a Thai, and they still can clean you out and boot you out very quickly. They will do it in subtle ways. If you want property such as a home or land or a business, buy it in your own country so you can have a small asset porfolio and something to fall back on when you need it or to simply have a place that is your very own with your name on it, and you have the deed and title to it, and no one else. Ehhh, sound much better. Right on.

Common sense and smart money sense is a must while staying in Thailand. The Immigration laws and the business laws and the investment laws are geared towards Thai security period. It is getting harder and harder every year. I am sure many of you have noticed it. In fact it is almost a major requirement anywhere you live. So be careful of what you do, be humble and respect others around you and you will get along just fine in Thailand. Thailand is not forever, it is only temporary. So enjoy the stay however long it may be but eventually you have to return back HOME to your origins like it or not.

Edited June 1, 2009 by DaveYo

[Thai at Heart]

I keep on reading about Thai wife, but how does this work when you and girlfriend are not legally married?

In that case you can just give her the money and she can do with it whatever she wants. If the relation turns sour not much chance to get anything back though.

You can have a life term partnership agreement and do a will too,that protects both parties.

Sorry to be glib, but a lifetime partnership? Oh and I thought in my naivete that that was a marriage. Is divorce still legal too?

Edited June 1, 2009 by Thai at Heart