Mild Electric Shock From Shower Taps

[skybluestu]

I've just moved into a new house and both myself and my partner have received mild electric shocks when we touched the shower taps and sink taps (tap = faucet). Nothing serious but enough to make us drop the shower & pull away from the taps?

Anyone have any idea why or how we can prevent this please?

Thanks in advance

[longball53098]

You need a qualified person to check that the water heaters are grounded properly and the house breaker panel is grounded properly and protected with some sort of ground fault protection. RCBO breaker or ELCB on the heaters.

Also the person that wired the heaters may have made a mistake in the hot and neutral may be reversed in the heater terminal connections or at the panel.

What ever the case a qualified person needs to check this out and correct the problem.

I think I would be switching off the heaters until it's fixed.

A cool shower is safer than getting knocked on your arse.

[Crossy]

Yup ^^^ you need someone to look at this pronto!!

As an initial step, switch off the shower breaker and remove the cover of the heater, check that there are three wires (usually black, white and green). The green should go to earth, either back to your distribution board (and on to a spike) or to a dedicated earth spike nearby.

If you have no earth on the heater you should install one ASAP along with an RCD or RCBO device to protect you from a serious shock.

If you DO seem to have an earth then its efficiency needs investigating, but doing much more than looking that the connections are clean and tight is beyond the average DIY chap

[Dave the Dude]

All good advice Stu and please deal with this as a matter of urgency. Its dangerous.

I would add that a seperate electrical supply (& the right size cable) should go to heater/shower unit from the box and not just have it 'spurred off' a light socket for instance.

Unfortunetly seen this done over here.

Dave (happy ex-plumber)

Edited June 15, 2009 by Dave the Dude

[skybluestu]

Thanks for the replies guys but I forgot to mention something I think may be important, sorry! The hot water comes from x2 external Ariston hot water heaters that are on the outside wall of the house, does this make any difference as to what may be causing the problem?

[loong]

Whatever you do, do not touch rhe water heaters, while the electricity is connected. I don't know if any external parts are conductive, but you definitely have a fault somewhere so don't risk it. I'm no expert and neither are you!

It may be that electricity may be being conducted through the water. Water in a plastic pipe is not a great conductor, so you may get the full blast from the heater unit,.

On an outside wall?????? You mean outside????

Edited June 15, 2009 by loong

[Carib]

Thanks for the replies guys but I forgot to mention something I think may be important, sorry! The hot water comes from x2 external Ariston hot water heaters that are on the outside wall of the house, does this make any difference as to what may be causing the problem?

Doesn't matter where the units are, if something is wrong with them as suspected, than the water will be a conductor to the system/taps.

Thinking like Crossy here that there is no " earth connection " provided.

[Crossy]

If you have a multimeter you can check the voltage between a good earth (not the house earth, stick a big screwdriver in the ground and use that) and the exposed metal of the heaters (care as noted above). Anything more than a few volts AC is an issue.

Alternatively (not so good) you could use your trusty neon screwdriver on the exposed metal, if it lights you have a serious issue

Are the heaters 'instant' or tank type storage heaters. Storage heaters can go leaky (electrically) and still be perfectly safe if correctly grounded.

[skybluestu]

If you have a multimeter you can check the voltage between a good earth (not the house earth, stick a big screwdriver in the ground and use that) and the exposed metal of the heaters (care as noted above). Anything more than a few volts AC is an issue.

Alternatively (not so good) you could use your trusty neon screwdriver on the exposed metal, if it lights you have a serious issue

Are the heaters 'instant' or tank type storage heaters. Storage heaters can go leaky (electrically) and still be perfectly safe if correctly grounded.

The heaters are Ariston storage heaters and are attached to the external walls of the house and are literally brand new, only been in use for a few days! The shock doesnt happen every time we touch the tap or shower, it's happened three times to my wife and once to myself when I turned the hot water tap. The sparky is coming out to the house later today to have a look so hopefully he'll find something and correct it!

[TheMysteriousMrTesla]

Do let us know what, if anything, he discovers and what, if anything, he does about it.

Electrical installations in Thailand leave a lot to be desired (statement of the bleeding obvious).

[skybluestu]

Do let us know what, if anything, he discovers and what, if anything, he does about it.

Electrical installations in Thailand leave a lot to be desired (statement of the bleeding obvious).

Just got a call to say he found nothing wrong, he apparently checked quite a lot of things and didn't find anything wrong or any sort of electrical current when he checked the taps, shower etc. The guy who fitted the hot water tanks will come round tomorrow and check as well but so far nowt to report. I have used the sink, taps and shower etc maybe 20 times since we moved in on Saturday and only had one shock, my wife has had maybe 3-4 so far so we would like to get this fixed asap as, although they are so far not too serious, they are stronger than a static type shock and it makes having a shower a tad unerving as you don't know what will happen.

[Crossy]

Do let us know what, if anything, he discovers and what, if anything, he does about it.

Electrical installations in Thailand leave a lot to be desired (statement of the bleeding obvious).

Just got a call to say he found nothing wrong, he apparently checked quite a lot of things and didn't find anything wrong or any sort of electrical current when he checked the taps, shower etc. The guy who fitted the hot water tanks will come round tomorrow and check as well but so far nowt to report. I have used the sink, taps and shower etc maybe 20 times since we moved in on Saturday and only had one shock, my wife has had maybe 3-4 so far so we would like to get this fixed asap as, although they are so far not too serious, they are stronger than a static type shock and it makes having a shower a tad unerving as you don't know what will happen.

Personally I would turn off the power to the heaters whilst in the shower, plenty of hot for a shower in the tank

Wouldn't want you to get zapped

[Artisi]

I would be isolating the heater/s at the switch board and having cold showers until you find the problem. Also worth a check if you still get any "shock"with the heaters isolated.

[Artisi]

Question for Crossy.

Is it possible there is a fault somewhere else in the "house" which is only noticable in the bathroom (wet area)?

[Crossy]

I would be isolating the heater/s at the switch board and having cold showers until you find the problem. Also worth a check if you still get any "shock"with the heaters isolated.

Great Minds think alike

These are tank storage heaters so no need for cold showers

[Crossy]

Question for Crossy.

Is it possible there is a fault somewhere else in the "house" which is only noticable in the bathroom (wet area)?

Possibly. If there is a poor (no) earth and there is an earth leakage fault somewhere it's possible for a voltage to occur on the 'ground' line. If you then get hold of this ground line (shower tap) whilst you are properly grounded (wet feet) you could get a shock.

Of course, if the ground is really ground then no issue.

[Artisi]

Thai electric worry the living daylights out of me - you can look after your self in your own home - but step into someone elses place your life can be at risk .

[Carib]

Do let us know what, if anything, he discovers and what, if anything, he does about it.

Electrical installations in Thailand leave a lot to be desired (statement of the bleeding obvious).

Just got a call to say he found nothing wrong, he apparently checked quite a lot of things and didn't find anything wrong or any sort of electrical current when he checked the taps, shower etc. The guy who fitted the hot water tanks will come round tomorrow and check as well but so far nowt to report. I have used the sink, taps and shower etc maybe 20 times since we moved in on Saturday and only had one shock, my wife has had maybe 3-4 so far so we would like to get this fixed asap as, although they are so far not too serious, they are stronger than a static type shock and it makes having a shower a tad unerving as you don't know what will happen.

Now it is a tad unnerving, but it could be much worse and kill you or your wife, you wouldn't be the first one to die in this way.

A separate grounding of the units is what I would do, that is not difficult and will not cost you an arm and a leg.

[BigSnake]

Better use another shower until you get this thing checked out, next time might not be so mild, do it now!

[Lite Beer]

Not many houses in Thailand actually have grounded electrics. It really is worth checking. Even if there is not a problem now.

Our electric shower heaters just had the earth wire going into the roof and going nowhere.

[track61]

I would carry it even further and have a real electrician check the entire house. I had ground rods installed on my showers, washer, fridge, and water pump as well as the breaker box. Showers, pump and air cons are on their own circuits as well. It's only my guess but I would be willing to bet the majority of homes built by thais have little or no grounding. Not the ideal deal.

[lopburi3]

As said make very sure those units are actually grounded (rod not a nail in the cement) - that he found no fault does not mean much unless you were there to check what he checked (most do not have a clue beyond hot/neutral ((or less)) ). That you have storage tanks means they are probably not powered on most of the time so it could well be leakage in them when the heating element is active. Those tanks (everything really) should have RCD protection and trip if you get enough current to shock you.

[loong]

I am sorry to say that there are a lot of so called electricians in Thailand that really do not have a clue.

Please, please do not go anywhere near the shower while the heaters are connected to the power supply. In all honesty I can't understand why you didn't shut off the power after the first shock.

If you post pictures of the set up you will get advice from the experts here (not me, I'm no expert - I'm a plumber).

If you do not have a consumer unit with a safety cut out (RCD, ELB) GET IT DONE. Take advice from the trained experts here. It's amazing how helpful they are.

Remember, very few people have died from having a cold shower.

[longball53098]

If this system is new and the storage tank type I am going to venture a guess that the water supply to the tank is blue pvc pipe and the outlet side (hot water supply) is piped to the various taps using steel pipe. When you first turn on the tap and start the water feeding and open the hot side you draw water from the tank. As you deplete the tank supply the thermostat senses the need to heat water so it turns the heater on and this is when the fault occurs and possibly energizes the steel pipe which in turn is connected to you under the shower water or touching the tap handle.

When sparky made his test maybe the heater was not energized at the time so no problem was apparent.

Still points to a ground not working(connected) and no RCBO to sense this fault and kick off the power.

Just some food for thought

[quiksilva]

Exactly the same thing happened to me in our new house, when they installed the water heater and an additional air-conditioning unit (both on the same circuit).

Got the sparkies in and when they pronounced it fixed. I said "Okay, go ahead then, have a shower." Which was greeted with smiles and laughter, then they realised I was serious....

They did a few more checks and its been fine ever since!

Edited June 16, 2009 by quiksilva

[kamalabob2]

Skyblustu: I am not a plumber, but I had never seen a water heater tank mounted on the side EXTERIOR wall of a house until I viewed your photo today. Just by looking at the photo to me your sparky might have been tempted to not give you a separate circuit or suitable sized circuit breaker from the a/c unit. Are you sure that OUTSIDE a house, subject to the sun and rain of Thailand is the best place for an expensive Ariston water heater? This is the Singapore site, but surely you can contact someone in Thailand from the MANUFACTURER. In my personal experience Up Country we in ONE DAY or TOW DAYS were able to get qualified technical representaives to come to our home and FIX problems at no charge from Siemens, Cotto/Toto, American Standard, JD Pool, etc..

http://www.ariston-heater.com.sg/customerservice.html

Maybe a friend or Thai Visa member currently in the UK could call the Ariston office and speak with a native English speaker if this is the best place to install your water heater.

http://www.ariston.co.uk/contact.php?t=0

Or you could e-mail the technical staff at

http://www.ariston.co.uk/services-technical.php?t=1

I just think the Sun and rain would cause trouble for any appliance left exposed. Nice house photos!

EDIT The photos in question are here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2807643

[skybluestu]

Thanks kamalabob2, I have just emailed them and asked, when I enquired at homemart when I purchased them the sales staff said they could go inside or outside the house so hopefully they were right but best to check anyway I guess as, like you said, they will be exposed to rain/sun etc.

The guy who built the house has assured me today that all the electrics are grounded and we have a square D circuit breaker too. The chap who fitted the tanks has also been out today and did 'something' which he said will stop the problem, not sure what though as I wasn't there. The hot water runs through copper pipes, not steel like someone mentioned earlier. I have just been home and used the taps & shower and so far so good, no more shocks! I will keep chasing Ariston in the UK too just for peace of mind.

[kamalabob2]

Do you have a SQUARE D RCBO breaker installed for that water heater? In my experience the excellent Home Mart in Surin made the phone calls which sent the MANUFACTURERS technicians to our Up Country home in one or two days for free service calls which solved any product or incorrect installation results. There are Thai Visa members much more informed about this, but I do know that you can get MANUFACTURER or DISTRIBUTOR service in Thailand which generally have trained staff and spare parts.

It would be helpful if you posted the photo on this topic which shows your present EXTERIOR installation. My wife grew up in a village, did attend many years of school, is not Hi So, but when she saw the installation photo she said "ban nok electric staff, not professional installation". She could be completely out of line, but in our opinion you have an attractive home which should have expensive items such as an Ariston Water tank heater INSIDE so you have less chance of critters, sun and rain shortening the lifespan of the item.

[TheMysteriousMrTesla]

As others have noted it's not difficult to check your heater is grounded.

Open the cover where the wire goes in (power off) and ensure there are three wires, the green one should go to a ground spike or back to the distribution board and thence to a ground spike.

[skybluestu]

We have one square D circuit breaker for the whole house with nine switches for different things, both the water heaters have a switch allocated on the breaker.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Crossy
Sorry Stu, meant to hit 'reply', got 'edit' instead :( Crossy