What's Wrong With Thaivisa.com And Many Of Its Forumers?

[Datsun240Z]

2 things i just have to say here:

a) my neighbor has never been on the internet. but, my wife's co-workers have a better education than i have. when they send emails, you would never know whether they were white, black, thai, inuit, american, british and on and on. to those who doubt that it was written by a thai, i have no problem with your doubts, only that it sounds as if you think that all Thai people are uneducated and therefore cannot possibly write and speak excellent english. strange that anyone would think that way, unless the only Thais you know is my neighbor... who has never been on the internet and doesn't know what it is. and can't speak any english other than "good morning, good evening and Goodyear!".

ii) "farang". could you imagine what it would be like if we walked around in public in the US and called anyone who wasn't white a "Foreigner". "Hey, this is my foreigner friend, Somchai". or even , "Hey, meet my Asian friend, Arthit". it's a real shame that we're called 'Farang'. i'm fuc_king American, take a fuc_king second to find that out, remember that and introduce me as your 'American friend'. it's pretty dam_n obvious i'm not Thai, amirite??? regardless, i don't take offense to being called a farang, i just think it's ignorant as a country to accept such a silly term for someone who isn't Thai. and i know they mean no harm using that term for us, but it does lend the white man to have negative attitudes towards their host.

anyway, the internet is stupid. learn thai, learn english, happy world.

The have been learned as farang from the very beginning, it will take generations to get that out.

[MKAsok]

Its a fake, clearly. So it doesn't reflect a Thai's point of view, just some poseur with an agenda.

I can't say I care either way jt, and I still don't fully understand how you think this affects the credibility of the writer's central hypothesis. Is it your honest opinion that 'a Thai's point of view' would be one of contentment with the kind of wildly excessive negativity, cynicism, ignorance and persistently gratuitous denigration of Thailand and in particular, Thai women, that is often displayed in this forum? Notice I'm not talking about criticism. I'm talking about excessive and gratuitous abuse. Even if it is a fake that doesn't make its central message any less significant because this supposed charlatan's 'agenda' has the added clout of coinciding, in the main, with something that is quite obviously the truth. As I stated already, it's a pity the writer, presumably in his enthusiasm for his own rhetoric, failed to notice the irony of his own use of, to an extent, the same shallow devices as the group he was attempting to discredit.

[Moonrakers]

I admit to not reading it fully, but has anybody pointed out yet that the article is nearly 2 years old and received only 2 replies. It appears to have been written on a very very quiet forum with few members.

Not sure quite what significance that has on the post, but why would somebody go to such length to post on such a quiet forum?

[samran]

That Thai who wrote the text, Is also complaining isn't he? He schould accept the truth, most Thai's are verry arrogant, although they smile and be polite. We foreigners just have different values and tend to complain more, not for nothing our countries are modernized. If they can't handle a little critics.....

Arrogant?

The words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind.

"not for nothing our countries are modernized". My arse.

Oh, and what is "a little critics", Mr Superior white man?

Regards,

A non-smiling arrogant Thai.

Did you ever woke up?

A little quiz for you.

Do you think that you're:

(a) Confronting the OP

or

(B ) Confirming the OP

As you're clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed, I'll help you out. It's not (a). I'll give you two attempts. Off you go, my boy.

He'll still get it wrong. Give the man three attempts. He'll go for 'b' eventually.

[norwayeagle]

,,, One-- NIL 2 Samran

[AleG]

I do get the distinct impression, in many ranting posts about Thais in the forum, that the accuser i often projecting it's own personality. As in someone accusing the Thais of racism is often using racist arguments, or people complaining about the lax law standards that also happen to use similar loopholes to stay in the country or get things done.

I also have the impression of peope no longer living here that hate the country not much differently than a person can hate a past loved one after a separation, perhaps it's easier to hate the person and place as a make believe construct to cope with the separation.

There are also many vaid criticisms of Thai society and idiosyncracy, for example a noted lack of affinity for criticism or the generally poor level of education. Complains about corruption, inequity, criminal activity, etc, etc... should trascend any nationality and be self evidently justified regardless of who voices them. However, as foreigner living in this place we actually have no say in how things are done here, we have no vote and very few rights in practice, so besides venting to the atmosphere or the web there isn't much more that we can do to express indignation or seek change in the society we live on.

I think that the way to foment possitive changes in Thai society (every society needs positive changes, not just Thailand) is by example and by respectful and polite discussion; treating Thais as idiots is not going to endear them to your ideals.

For what is worth English is my second language; suggesting that a Thai person can't learn to express himself coherently and appropriately in English is one of the racists kind of comments I alluded to.

[Gaccha]

I feel the thread has coagulated around a Thai contributor's assertion that the Thai's don't care what farang think. Let me try to demonstrate this is nonsense.

Being Thai is an identity.

Identity is an inescapable dimension of being.

Identity is constituted in relation to difference (you farang, me thai)

The State 'Thailand' then, to assert an identity is performatively constituted (that is, it must constantly do things to show its identity. Since it is intangible you cannot see an identity of a State unless it does somethig)

The Thai state then performs against the defiling Other. (the one it uses to make its identity by noting differences)

The Thai state has two dominant discourses in this regard-- the terrible Burmese and their merciless destruction of Ayathuya, and the farang

foreign policy (lower caps are deliberate here; it is a contrast with Foreign Policy that would refer to the State Institution's policies) is a privileged instance of acts required by the Thai state to reveal its identity

So the security by a state isn't towards an objective danger, but is instead a way of the state legitimising itself.

The nation is an 'imagined political community" (see the masterpiece by benedict Anderson for more on this)

The entity does not possess a prediscusive, stable identity (i.e. Thailand has no identity until it tooks ill of farang)

Ironically, if a state ended this practice of representation it would mean its death.

"At this point all identities would have congealed, all challenges would have evaporated, and all need for disciplinary authorities and their fields of force would have vanished"

"Ironically, then, the ability if the state project if security to succeed is the guarantor of the state's continuted success as an impelling identity. The constant threat of danger through foreign policy us thus not a threat to a state's identity or existence: it is its condition of possibility"

(David Campbell, "Writing Security")

The key to get around this mess of novel ideas is to imagine the State not as a structure but as a process.

If I ask you to point to the Thai state, you cannot. You can point to a flag, a police officer, a border post, a map. But these are flags, polcie officers, border posts, maps. The State is simply in your mind. It is in chronic danger of not existing.

The Thai readers above croak that thais do not care what farang think. If only. In fact, they really, really, really care. Just look at the tremor in their lips when any criticism is made.

"In Thailand today, the farang are still regarded as a race (unspecified nationalities) possessed of an ideology inferior to the abundantly rich local culture. The farang who come to reside in Thailand are described as begging for the boundless benevolence of the King , or rom phtohi somphan, to live a pleasant and enchanted life. For a Farang to be accepted in Thai society, he or she must totally abandon their innate attitudes or become excessively enamoured with anything Thai (culture, art or way of life). Todd Lavell... is an American writer who provides an example of how a farang can be so Thai-like. His articles ... often underscore what is deemed to be the true value of Thainess, which is opposite to and more superior than that of farangness."

--Pavin Chachavalpongpun

Thai Professor, visiting Professor of SOAS, London University

"Thai identity is elusive because of a lack of cultural coherence or uniqueness, so it is easier for its promoters to imagine what is not Thai"

"The adherence to Khawnpenthai [Thainess]... is a part of the exercise of Thai nationalism through which power holders portray themselves as legitimate players formulating legitimate policy"

"[The power holders] high degree of power helps create the official version of Thainess that masks political unattractiveness as well as elites' private accummulation"

"Thais comply with this variable nationhood and perceive it as though it is part of their chit winyan, or spirit... This explains why they never look beyond the boundaries of Thai nationhood, and why it always remains predominant, ultimate and supremacist."

"according to this... self-image, Thais are not guilty of anything and blame is always placed upon foreigners"

"The farang... have continously represented a real enough threat to the power interests of the Thai leaders"

I rest my case, my honour.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Gaccha

[Jingthing]

For what is worth English is my second language; suggesting that a Thai person can't learn to express himself coherently and appropriately in English is one of the racists kind of comments I alluded to.

I for one NEVER asserted a Thai person couldn't learn to write in fluent English. The reason I think the OP rant is a fake is the CONTENT, not the fluency or lack thereof.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Jingthing

[Texpat]

Depending on the people around you, learning the language might expose those you disparage as dumber than you ever imagined.

[samran]

Depending on the people around you, learning the language might expose those you disparage as dumber than you ever imagined.

true, but why bother going to the effort of learning a new language? Plenty of TV posters serve that purpose for me on a daily basis! (nb. I'm allowed to say this as I'm an arrogant, unsmiling, sterotypical Thai SOB).

Edited June 30, 2009 by samran

[Maizefarmer]

Good points - never ceases to amaze me how many folk have a "them and us" perception about Thai's - as if they are somehow different, as if they can't and/or don't see or understand things like Westerners are able to.......... and an underlying theme to many of the threads that stem from incidents about Thai's or the "Thai way of doing things", which OP's share on TV, is often a very subtle suggestion of Western superiority implied discretly through add on comments, like "how could they", or "can you believe it", or similar.

With very few exceptions, I find many of these threads say more about an OP's ignorance or arrogance about Thai's and Thailand.

Thai's have the same concepts of right & wrong, honesty & dishonesty, loyalty/disloyalty. They have the same aspirations and desires. Thai's are humans like the rest of us, and the sooner folk who live here for the long run learn to read, write, speak and communicate with Thai's on much the same level as they can with their peers from back home, the sooner many of these preconceptions are dropped. Them and us preconceptions in the past were tied up in Western colonial attitudes (interestingly, Thailand is the one South East Asia country that was never colonised as Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma, Malaysia, HK were by Western countries).

Today, I believe "them & us" perceptions are preserved through the inability to communicate - to be able to speak to a Thai on the same level and with the same ability as one has to speak with a Western peer, very quickly changes ones perception of the individual.

....................

...you are right, but you clearly expect too much. The world is not perfect. We all have in our inner nature the same attributes, but we handle that differently. You can't expect everyone to instantly understand the local conditions. That has to be done step by step. Proper intention should be realized as the precondition, otherwise one has to look for alternatives.

I am surprised by your strong response. Others are apparently not - see the posts, which follows yours and ignore the wise words completely.

All beings have the same aspirations and desires, and that is happiness. But at the present times we are far away of understanding each other. Communication is one of the tools, but showing TOLERANCE is the key element .

Fair comment ..... unlike yourself (who understood between the lines of what I had written), I think a lot of folk probably missed the point.

Regards "it takes time" - yes, I accept that, and I accept it takes quite a bit of time, but do you know how ex-pats have lived here 5 or 10years - and you still hear them say things like "mai me namkeng, Kap" - !!!!!

Edited June 30, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[Maizefarmer]

I feel the thread has coagulated around a Thai contributor's assertion that the Thai's don't care what farang think. Let me try to demonstrate this is nonsense.

Being Thai is an identity.

Identity is an inescapable dimension of being.

Identity is constituted in relation to difference (you farang, me thai)

The State 'Thailand' then, to assert an identity is performatively constituted (that is, it must constantly do things to show its identity. Since it is intangible you cannot see an identity of a State unless it does somethig)

The Thai state then performs against the defiling Other. (the one it uses to make its identity by noting differences)

The Thai state has two dominant discourses in this regard-- the terrible Burmese and their merciless destruction of Ayathuya, and the farang

foreign policy (lower caps are deliberate here; it is a contrast with Foreign Policy that would refer to the State Institution's policies) is a privileged instance of acts required by the Thai state to reveal its identity

So the security by a state isn't towards an objective danger, but is instead a way of the state legitimising itself.

The nation is an 'imagined political community" (see the masterpiece by benedict Anderson for more on this)

The entity does not possess a prediscusive, stable identity (i.e. Thailand has no identity until it tooks ill of farang)

Ironically, if a state ended this practice of representation it would mean its death.

"At this point all identities would have congealed, all challenges would have evaporated, and all need for disciplinary authorities and their fields of force would have vanished"

"Ironically, then, the ability if the state project if security to succeed is the guarantor of the state's continuted success as an impelling identity. The constant threat of danger through foreign policy us thus not a threat to a state's identity or existence: it is its condition of possibility"

(David Campbell, "Writing Security")

The key to get around this mess of novel ideas is to imagine the State not as a structure but as a process.

If I ask you to point to the Thai state, you cannot. You can point to a flag, a police officer, a border post, a map. But these are flags, polcie officers, border posts, maps. The State is simply in your mind. It is in chronic danger of not existing.

The Thai readers above croak that thais do not care what farang think. If only. In fact, they really, really, really care. Just look at the tremor in their lips when any criticism is made.

"In Thailand today, the farang are still regarded as a race (unspecified nationalities) possessed of an ideology inferior to the abundantly rich local culture. The farang who come to reside in Thailand are described as begging for the boundless benevolence of the King , or rom phtohi somphan, to live a pleasant and enchanted life. For a Farang to be accepted in Thai society, he or she must totally abandon their innate attitudes or become excessively enamoured with anything Thai (culture, art or way of life). Todd Lavell... is an American writer who provides an example of how a farang can be so Thai-like. His articles ... often underscore what is deemed to be the true value of Thainess, which is opposite to and more superior than that of farangness."

--Pavin Chachavalpongpun

Thai Professor, visiting Professor of SOAS, London University

"Thai identity is elusive because of a lack of cultural coherence or uniqueness, so it is easier for its promoters to imagine what is not Thai"

"The adherence to Khawnpenthai [Thainess]... is a part of the exercise of Thai nationalism through which power holders portray themselves as legitimate players formulating legitimate policy"

"[The power holders] high degree of power helps create the official version of Thainess that masks political unattractiveness as well as elites' private accummulation"

"Thais comply with this variable nationhood and perceive it as though it is part of their chit winyan, or spirit... This explains why they never look beyond the boundaries of Thai nationhood, and why it always remains predominant, ultimate and supremacist."

"according to this... self-image, Thais are not guilty of anything and blame is always placed upon foreigners"

"The farang... have continously represented a real enough threat to the power interests of the Thai leaders"

I rest my case, my honour.

... well said Gaccha.

[sanook2me]

i really just spent 40 minutes reading the whole of this and my opinion is...

2 many old farangs!

But us young ones are coming through and don't have the same issues as the pension pot moaning oldies.

i'm in my 30's and my mates of similar age who are here have never had any of the cr@p that is written on here........

[smylz]

I think there are always whingers in any forum, this one just happens to be about Thailand.

In the land of sensitivity and hold your tongue (or else) I think it is ok to have somewhere to vent your frustration - be them petty or genuine problems, we all need to vent sometimes. (try venting to your Thai partner about things - sheesh!)

Does anyone know of any forums for thais in western countries to source information, just like thaivisa?

and if so, do they moan as much as we do?

Some peoples comments may be harsh - but does that make them untrue?

[BigSnake]

A keyword on google produced this in its list of links. Its an opinion (on another forum) regarding some of the kinds of things written on ThaiVisa.com, from a Thai persons perspective:

What's wrong with thaivisa.com and many of its forumers?

** Rant warning **

Proceed with caution as my opinion may sound like a rant to you.

Ok, I have to get this off my chest. It never fails to amaze me how negative and cynical the expats community in Thailand can be. I know that I have to be fair about this, and I definitely hope to believe that most farangs in Thailand are nice and friendly and are willing to embrace the Thai culture since they have decided to settle or work here anyway. But every time I browse through their forum at thaivisa.com, especially threads concerning the Thai people, the new airport and Bangkok in general, I never fail to come across many sarcastic, cynical and harsh comments about anything and everything associated with Thailand. We all know that our country is imperfect in many ways and we ourselves aren't too happy with a lot of stuffs that are going on, but the level of negative-ness found at Thaivisa.com is unbelievably intense and I cannot help but feel a brimming sense of superiority complex among its members. While it is heartache to read some of the strong opinions and derisive words, I simply cannot help but think why would anyone be so sour over a country and still choose not to pack and leave (since most members there seem to have made it clear that countries like Singapore, Malaysia are so much better than here or that their country of origin (European countries / America / Australia) are so much greater than Thailand).

There are plenty of examples of degrading jokes directed at Thai women, ladyboys, and many are very keen at highlighting the general incompetence and laziness of the Thai people or to pass off "damned if you do and damned if you don't" or "this will never make it" kind of opinions. Whether these are intended as jokes or to what extend that their comments are true is not my main focus here (while I do admit that Thailand and the Thai people will have to pull our socks in many ways), it is my feeling that many farangs there simply loathe Thailand and still not finding themselves taking the next flight out. Can these people be those old pot-belly farangs in shorts and slippers strolling down the road of Pattaya with a beautiful Thai girl young enough to be his daughter? Or could they be those middle-age high-pay / high-bonus BTS warriors in suits from the wealthy West who firmly believe that 'farangs are always right or better'? Sometimes, based on some of the sweeping comments which are overwhelmingly negative littering the mentioned forum, it's hard to think about how these individuals could live a life without secretly looking down upon the locals. No matter who these people are, there seems to be a growing community of expats who migrate here simply to whine or become so full of themselves that they make sure that their acerbic opinions are either heard through 'letters to the editor' published in the local English dailies or at least made clear in an online 'farang forum'. Should this be taking place in Singapore, I believe that the locals would have responded furiously to counter many of their criticisms but it's always unfortunate that Thais are generally not as vocal or are not so confident in their command of English or it maybe a simple reality that Thais and the local expats use different forums as platforms of their online discussion.

One of the trends which I have observed at thaivisa.com is the level of ignorance exhibit by many members there on issues related to Thailand. When these ignorance are exchanged at the forum, if left uncorrected, sometimes evolve into an even more ridiculous ignorance or a wild misunderstanding of what is really going on in the country. Part of blame may be due to our lack of communication skills in English, hence the Thai media and the Thai people in general are not very good at explaining in-depth of what is really going on with regards to some issues. This means that these expats are often left on their own to interpret what they think might be happening -- sometimes based on facts mixed with Google journalism and sometimes based on prejudiced views brought with them from the West. If you regularly browse through some of the views at thaivisa.com, you'll be unpleasantly surprised to find how much misunderstanding there are from individuals who seem to have settled and lived in Thailand for a decade or so.

I must admit that most Thais don't fancy criticisms at all, be it one brimming with good intentions or remarks simply aimed at deflating one's ego, so it may be time that we learn to live with a bit of 'feedback' from the outsider point-of-view. However, I cannot see how such sheer cynicism, bitterness, pessimism, schadenfreude and superior complex that are often passed off as "jokes" can become something which can easily go down the throat of even the most liberal-minded Thais without stirring in him a feeling of disgust and distrust towards farangs? Don't the people at thaivisa.com ever remember that there might be many silent Thai audiences around who may find some of their comments bordering rude or even offensive? Or maybe they don't even care about feelings at all? Personally, I never expect online discussion boards to be politically correct or diplomatic, so while I welcome a regular dose of constructive criticisms, balanced views and objective debates, I feel that it shouldn't be too much to ask for more culturally sensitive comments from the majority of forumers there.

By sharing my views here I know that I am about to land myself in a hot seat. But before you shoot my opinions down, I'd urge those who take pleasures in seeing things not going right in Thailand to pause for a moment and think that regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, this could be the kind of reaction that a typical Thai person would have upon reading some of the dark and tasteless comments that have been cruelly crafted. There's this deep-rooted concept of 'kreng jai' in the Thai psyche, so when one shows restrain while being negative, respect would be earned and reciprocated in kind, and I believe that this will go a long way in making sure that a farang's stay in Thailand a pleasant one.

There were also some interesting replies.

I think its against tv rules to post a direct link, right? So just google "What's wrong with thaivisa.com and many of its forumers?" for the source if you wish to read more.

Thanks for the warning, a Rant indeed now get over it. It takes all kinds to make this world go round so we must learn to accept it and move on. NUFF said.

[anothertorres]

nothing betrays the internets intention when one thread on a message board is busy making pages on another message board. i am not Thai, but i play one on guitar...

[mahtin]

Depending on the people around you, learning the language might expose those you disparage as dumber than you ever imagined.

true, but why bother going to the effort of learning a new language? Plenty of TV posters serve that purpose for me on a daily basis! (nb. I'm allowed to say this as I'm an arrogant, unsmiling, sterotypical Thai SOB).

Shooting fish in a barrel is a bit boring though

[Ijustwannateach]

As a sometime mod/member, I would offer the following conjectures:

1. Thailand possibly does not, in fact, have its act together politically, educationally, technologically, and economically as well as Singapore does. Of course, this is nearly unimaginable.

2. The type of expats found in Thailand differ, as a group, than those found in Singapore- partly for the reasons in #1, but also because Thailand attracts a large group of fairly dysfunctional types (it must be acknowledged).

3. The format of Thaivisa makes a certain number of anonymous provocateurs/trolls from the dysfunctional group mentioned in #2 inevitable, and as such the tone of "most posts" cannot be taken for granted as the real opinion of "most expats" without some serious statistical screening.

I also like Tywais's comment about catharsis and how those who are basically happy won't always post to state that, but many who need to let off steam will post to complain.

[Harcourt]

As a sometime mod/member, I would offer the following conjectures:

1. Thailand possibly does not, in fact, have its act together politically, educationally, technologically, and economically as well as Singapore does. Of course, this is nearly unimaginable.

2. The type of expats found in Thailand differ, as a group, than those found in Singapore- partly for the reasons in #1, but also because Thailand attracts a large group of fairly dysfunctional types (it must be acknowledged).

3. The format of Thaivisa makes a certain number of anonymous provocateurs/trolls from the dysfunctional group mentioned in #2 inevitable, and as such the tone of "most posts" cannot be taken for granted as the real opinion of "most expats" without some serious statistical screening.

I also like Tywais's comment about catharsis and how those who are basically happy won't always post to state that, but many who need to let off steam will post to complain.

Definitely.

Also, I have noticed in my home country that there is a group of people, call them rednecks for want of a better word, that complain about immigrants, especially immigrants that do not assimilate. After 9/11, this intolerance for immigrants grew.

When the shoe is on the other foot and these rednecks visit another country (Thailand for instance) they forget that THEY are now the immigrants, guests in another land, and forget all their ravings on "how immigrants should learn to speak English and adopt our Western way of life....", and suddenly expect to be served their western food, by English speaking coolies, and disparage the local way for being different from "back home".

Rednecks are an embarrassment.

[Harcourt]

I feel the thread has coagulated around a Thai contributor's assertion that the Thai's don't care what farang think. Let me try to demonstrate this is nonsense. .........

.........

"In Thailand today, the farang are still regarded as a race (unspecified nationalities) possessed of an ideology inferior to the abundantly rich local culture. The farang who come to reside in Thailand are described as begging for the boundless benevolence of the King , or rom phtohi somphan, to live a pleasant and enchanted life. For a Farang to be accepted in Thai society, he or she must totally abandon their innate attitudes or become excessively enamoured with anything Thai (culture, art or way of life). Todd Lavell... is an American writer who provides an example of how a farang can be so Thai-like. His articles ... often underscore what is deemed to be the true value of Thainess, which is opposite to and more superior than that of farangness."

--Pavin Chachavalpongpun

Thai Professor, visiting Professor of SOAS, London University

...........

I rest my case, my honour.

Now there's one Thai who writes well.

[norwayeagle]

i really just spent 40 minutes reading the whole of this and my opinion is...

2 many old farangs!

But us young ones are coming through and don't have the same issues as the pension pot moaning oldies.

i'm in my 30's and my mates of similar age who are here have never had any of the cr@p that is written on here........

.... ..... .well,what u mean by being old farangs.most younger people than me are much "older"( or ,and,much younger in words and behaviour) and am 51. If u see me u will think am not a day over 40.I still run 10km in under 40 min,take over 100 push ups with no problm,( have you heard about the Jante law ? if so dont come with that kind of mentality )and am only keeping myself in shape,(not as "fanatic) about training as i used 2 be.I never have and never will go to prostitutes to get a woman ( dont want to treat a woman like that)and guess what,my brain is sharper than it ever was.So i dont think u can use age 2 define all "crap" people here (or anywhere)say (or do in life 4 that matter).Some has a up and going Brain when they are 18 and others will no brain have whatever age. or? what 40 min to read this 5 pages.hehe you have still a looot to learn and sooo do i !!,,,,,,,,,,Ps:and when it comes 2 my shape am faaar over average at my age,but that does not meen am sitting on my pedestal looking down.and about buying sex,that just popped out. Read and learn ( you should allready have learned alot since u r in the 30s)and and and and aaaaaaa stop. Eeeee.I really hope just 1 understand me then am satisfied (hopefuly ur the 1). double PS: 2 understand this u just have to be "smart" if not....well

[Datsun240Z]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsmoXP4X_qY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8muMo0fw_M...feature=related

Got the messages?

Edited June 30, 2009 by Datsun240Z

[Harcourt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsmoXP4X_qY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8muMo0fw_M...feature=related

Got the messages?

? That there's too much war and deforestation going on in the world?

[sanook2me]

i really just spent 40 minutes reading the whole of this and my opinion is...

2 many old farangs!

But us young ones are coming through and don't have the same issues as the pension pot moaning oldies.

i'm in my 30's and my mates of similar age who are here have never had any of the cr@p that is written on here........

.... ..... .well,what u mean by being old farangs.most younger people than me are much "older"( or ,and,much younger in words and behaviour) and am 51. If u see me u will think am not a day over 40.I still run 10km in under 40 min,take over 100 push ups with no problm,( have you heard about the Jante law ? if so dont come with that kind of mentality )and am only keeping myself in shape,(not as "fanatic) about training as i used 2 be.I never have and never will go to prostitutes to get a woman ( dont want to treat a woman like that)and guess what,my brain is sharper than it ever was.So i dont think u can use age 2 define all "crap" people here (or anywhere)say (or do in life 4 that matter).Some has a up and going Brain when they are 18 and others will no brain have whatever age. or? what 40 min to read this 5 pages.hehe you have still a looot to learn and sooo do i !!,,,,,,,,,,Ps:and when it comes 2 my shape am faaar over average at my age,but that does not meen am sitting on my pedestal looking down.and about buying sex,that just popped out. Read and learn ( you should allready have learned alot since u r in the 30s)and and and and aaaaaaa stop. Eeeee.I really hope just 1 understand me then am satisfied (hopefuly ur the 1). double PS: 2 understand this u just have to be "smart" if not....well

At 51 you are a pension pot moaning oldie?

lucky for you that you have managed to retire early keep away from the bar scene and don't go with prositutes but at 51 i wouldn't class that as an oldie. For me to use the word pension this indicates someone who is probably older than 51 as they are living off a pension.

So really aside from you getting a bit muddled about what old is you agree with me. You are obviously trying not to but as you keep away from prosititutes keep yourself fit and active you have a nice life here.

This is what i was hinting at the moaners on here have a stereotypical life here

retirement age

join bar scene

fall for poor young girl

lose money

wonder why

everything is rubbish

[sbk]

My husband is Thai, he has many critical things to say of Thailand and its way of doing things. He doesn't mind foreigners making the same criticisms either.

What he finds appalling, as do I, is the overt racism from many members who seem to think that because they are Western they are somehow superior or more intelligent. He is deeply offended by the bigots who insist on referring to Thais in racist terms and astonished that Thai women will stay with men who profess such deep and abiding contempt for their country and their people.

There is nothing wrong with criticism. There is something wrong with people who insist on referring to Thai people as monkeys, or all Thai women as whores or all Thai men as abusive lazy drunkards.

Imagine if a Thai person came to your country and made the same sweeping derogatory generalizations.

Hard to, isn't it? Mainly because most Thais tend to have better manners.

[JR Texas]

My husband is Thai, he has many critical things to say of Thailand and its way of doing things. He doesn't mind foreigners making the same criticisms either.

What he finds appalling, as do I, is the overt racism from many members who seem to think that because they are Western they are somehow superior or more intelligent. He is deeply offended by the bigots who insist on referring to Thais in racist terms and astonished that Thai women will stay with men who profess such deep and abiding contempt for their country and their people.

There is nothing wrong with criticism. There is something wrong with people who insist on referring to Thai people as monkeys, or all Thai women as whores or all Thai men as abusive lazy drunkards.

Imagine if a Thai person came to your country and made the same sweeping derogatory generalizations.

Hard to, isn't it? Mainly because most Thais tend to have better manners.

Nobody should approach a topic from a position of hatred. I never have, although many think I have simply because I speak out against things that I see as wrong.

What I find on TV is that many posters take themselves too seriously (ok........guilty) and others do not have the capacity to use reason, thus no discussion is possible.

Criticism is not always "negative." It is interesting that so many people assume this from the start. Criticism is often "positive criticism."

I wish more posters would take the time to grasp this concept as I think it might diminish the "Love Thailand or Leave it Responses" that are frequent here.......it gets to be like a mud slinging match.

If you say anything "negative" about Thailand you are tagged as "poor" or "depressed" or "angry" or "crazy," or "Thailand hater," etc., etc. Nobody tags you as "genuinely concerned about the state of affairs."

Positive criticism is meant to generate something positive, not something negative.

[WaiWai]

Criticism is not always "negative." It is interesting that so many people assume this from the start. Criticism is often "positive criticism."

I wish more posters would take the time to grasp this concept as I think it might diminish the "Love Thailand or Leave it Responses" that are frequent here.......it gets to be like a mud slinging match.

If you say anything "negative" about Thailand you are tagged as "poor" or "depressed" or "angry" or "crazy," or "Thailand hater," etc., etc. Nobody tags you as "genuinely concerned about the state of affairs."

Positive criticism is meant to generate something positive, not something negative.

Agreed!

I think that some foreign posters here a adopt a defensiveness about Thais and Thailand for one or both of two main reasons.

These are:

a. psychological (formed roots in/connections with Thailand for a variety of reasons & see a need to make this "acceptable" to themselves and/or others; a number of varieties and combinations thereof)

b. financial (involved in businesses which they fear will suffer from frank discussion of the shortcomings of Thais and Thailand

[HagenvonTronje]

It could have been written by a Thai who has lived a long time in the west and really internalized the western point of view. More likely in my view, written by a long term European descent person in Thailand who is putting on Thai airs and imagines that he has internalized the Thai point of view. I also can't imagine the PM of Thailand writing such a piece.

schadenfreude, indeed!

If I had a dollar for every Thai who uses that word in everyday conversation I could buy a latte at Starbucks!

Nobody use Schadenfreude in everyday conversation.

Ever learned a second language and be able to read the literature, the newspapers in that language. Also able to write down your opinions in that language?

I would say the text has a couple of stylistic characteristics, features that let me assume it is not written by an English native speaker or somebody who grow up from his earliest childhood in an (western) English-speaking environment. The text has some minimal stylistic flaws, weakness you cannot fake as native speaker. That marker you can maybe only spot if you are able to speak a second language.

Anyway, it's negligible if the text was written by a Thai person, or somebody else. Why trying to guess the author, when you have a long text with lots of arguments already. Check the claims that the text made and look if there are valid points. There are a lot of them, funny is that some people cannot accept them.

In the end, it's nothing new. The text gives a fair and correct description of certain aspects of thaivisa forum. However, nothing new, nothing what I did not know before, saying that - I can only agree with that polite 'rant'.

[HagenvonTronje]

...

"Ironically, then, the ability if ...

(David Campbell, "Writing Security")

...

"...Todd Lavell... is an American writer who provides an example of how a farang can be so Thai-like. His articles ... often underscore what is deemed to be the true value of Thainess, which is opposite to and more superior than that of farangness."

--Pavin Chachavalpongpun

Thai Professor, visiting Professor of SOAS, London University

...

I rest my case, my honour.

It is a sad thing that people with google education and their copypasta paragraphs and sentences don't understand that a mixture of some quotes can not be a substitute for an own argumentation and there is still the question left what wanted the cut up poet actually say. Most of the time it also lacks a proper list of references and indication of the source. That is the final hint for being google educated only.

[robblok]

true, but why bother going to the effort of learning a new language? Plenty of TV posters serve that purpose for me on a daily basis! (nb. I'm allowed to say this as I'm an arrogant, unsmiling, sterotypical Thai SOB).

Im Dutch i speak 3 languages and can hold easy conversation in Thai. Im still working on my Thai but its hard and i should put more effort in it.

But hey im an arrogant beer bellied guy with a girl half his age.