Authentication Of Document From Usa

[jazzbo]

Certain unnamed Immigration offices in LOS might ask that you authenticate a document (financial?) from thye USA. This is the procedure (from http://bangkok.usembassy(dot)gov/service/n...l-services.html ):

Procedures for Authentication and Legalizing Official Documents Issued In the United States

Official documents requiring authentication will need to be certified first by the entity that issued them, then by the state in which that entity is located, and then by the federal government (the U.S. State Department). Once the document has been authenticated by the U.S. State Department, the foreign embassy in the United States of the country requesting the document will perform a final authentication. Following is a brief outline of what will be required (though the actual requirements will vary greatly from state to state).

To authenticate and legalize official documents issued in the United States, please follow the steps below.

Step 1: Obtain the Document

If you do not already have the document, contact the custodian of records where the document was originally issued to obtain a copy. In some cases you may be required to obtain a new sealed copy for the purposes of authentication, even if you already possess a copy. Please check with your respective state.

Academic Records: Contact the respective academic institution directly for information on what it will need to certify the document’s authenticity. Some academic institutions require the submission of the original diploma; others issue a true copy themselves. Most academic transcripts issued to the student, for example, cannot be used for official purposes; a new sealed copy must be obtained.

Step 2: Contact the State Authentication Office

Authentication procedures vary from state to state. We strongly encourage patrons to contact their respective state’s authentication office for more information. Refer to the National Association of Secretaries of State website to locate the state specific Authentication Authorities at: http://www.usa.gov/ Home Page > A-Z Index> S> State Agencies by Topic> State Government Home Pages.

* In some cases, the Clerk of Court is required to certify that the Notary's term has not expired in the county where the Notary Public is commissioned.

Step 3: Obtain Signature and Seal from State Secretary of State (State Authentication Office)

The document must then be signed and sealed by the Secretary of State in the state where the Notary is located, certifying to the Notary’s current status. For contact information, visit the State Department’s list of State Authentication Authorities at: http://www.nass.org Homepage> Issues> Business Services> Notary Services> Choose a State to get to the state Notary Public Website.

Step 4: Obtain U.S. Department of State Authentication

Forward all documents to the U.S. Department of State at the following address:

Department of State Documents Authentication Office

518 23rd ST. N.W., SA-1, Columbia Plaza

Washington, D.C. 20520

TEL: (202) 647-5002 or 1-800-688-9889, FAX: (202) 663-3636

The Department of State Documents Authentication Office charges a fee of $7.00.

Step 5: Obtain Embassy/Consulate Authentication of Foreign Government

Once the documents have been authenticated by the U.S. Department of State, bring the documents to the foreign embassy in the United States of the country requesting the documents, where they will do the final authentication.

Contact information for the Royal Thai Embassy in Washington D.C. can be found at: http://www.thaiembdc.org/index.htm

Step 6: Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Legalization Division

Once the document is in Thailand, submit the document to the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Legalization Division to make the document legal for use in Thailand. Once the put their stamp and seal on the document it can now be used in Thailand officially. The phone number for the Legalization Division is (+66) 2-981-7171.

Further Questions: U.S. Embassy – Bangkok, American Citizen Services at (66) 2-205-4049 or U.S. Department of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs, Office of American Citizen Services at (202) 647-5225, or (202) 647-5226.

DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION IN THIS CIRCULAR IS PROVIDED FOR GENERAL INFORMATION ONLY. THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE MAKES NO WARRANTY REGARDING THE ACCURACY OF THIS INFORMATION. WHILE SOME OF THE INFORMATION IS ABOUT LEGAL ISSUES, IT IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. QUESTIONS INVOLVING INTERPRETATION OF SPECIFIC FOREIGN LAWS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED TO FOREIGN ATTORNEYS.

[taxout]

For background, there's a treaty that reduces this unreal procedure to a couple of steps in most cases, but Thailand's not a party to it.

http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=conve...atus&cid=41

[jazzbo]

You are correct, Kuhn Taxout, about the Hague Convention... I edited this out from the same Bangkok US Embassy webpage:

Thailand is not a party to the Hague Convention Abolishing the Requirement for Legalization of Foreign Public Documents.

When a certification or authentication of a true copy of a document issued outside of Thailand is required, please contact the embassy or consulate of the country where the document was issued.

However, the Hague Convention only applies to PUBLIC Documents. What if you have a notarized letter from your USA bank and someone decides 'you need to have that letter authenticated'?

[taxout]

It's the notarial act -- the notarization by a notary public -- that constitutes the "public document" not the underlying bank statement, since the notary is regarded as public official. So yes, you can legalise the notarization of the bank statement with an apostille when the Hague Convention applies.

[Pib]

I would say the time required and chances of getting a document authenticated/legalized per the original post procedure is approx "forever" and "zero", respectively.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Pib

[taxout]

If you do it yourself, that's probably true. But there are companies -- easily enough found on the web -- that will do all the running around for you, at a cost of course.

[Lopburi99]

Upon first applying for my Non O-A (while still in the U.S.) my doctor's office didn't have a notary present when I came to get my results. A different notary told me later, "How do I know this is your doctor's signature?" and wouldn't notarize my document (as if I needed to forge my Dr's signature to cover up my leprosy and elephantitis ).

Conveniently my bank wasn't so fussy and notarized that document along with my bank statements (per next paragraph).

While I respect the need to establish authenticity of documents, in actuality in the U.S. the notatorial process doesn't assure much. A notary who does not question what they are notarizing is simple to find, in fact many don't. If someone says "please notarize this", the notary often just says "sure". Authentification/certification merely assures the notary is registered with the state. It would be simple to create a bogus document which became notarized then authenticated.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Lopburi99

[jazzbo]

Once again, Kuhn Taxout, you are probably right:

U.S. Consular officers are not empowered to authenticate

public documents

issued in the United States. Such documents include vital records (birth, marriage, death and divorce), as well as academic,

commercial, or other credentials

. Consular Officers do not have access to the records of the issuing office or the seal of the custodian of these records.

But my question and pointing out the "onerous" authentication procedure was more of a practical nature: If I take a notarized original letter from, say, Bank of America, that they transfer into my checking account a monthly income in excess of 65, 000 baht per month from my investment account (and I have the computerized statement reports confirming such as well as the Letter from the US Embassy), can an Immigration Official say 'Come back with that document authenticated' in which case I might have to go through the procedure as in the OP?

[Aswin]

Yep, few years back I had to get Condi's signature authenticating the document. Luckily I live in DC so state dept, is just a few blocks away but what a pain.

[taxout]

Before you head to the State Department, the notary's signature must be verified by a state (or DC) official, sometimes two. Legalisation constitutes a chain of officials, each one recognizing the signature and seal of the preceding official.

[Maestro]

...If I take a notarized original letter from, say, Bank of America, that they transfer into my checking account a monthly income in excess of 65, 000 baht per month from my investment account (and I have the computerized statement reports confirming such as well as the Letter from the US Embassy), can an Immigration Official say 'Come back with that document authenticated' in which case I might have to go through the procedure as in the OP? ...

The discussion about the authentication of a signature on a US document has no bearing on the requirements for the application of an extension of stay in Thailand. All that is needed is the authentication of the applicants signature by the US consulate in Thailand on the income statement. For the purpose of this authentication, the applicant identifies himself to the consular official with his passport.

The immigration office is not asking for proof of monthly remittances of minimum 65,000 Baht from abroad to the applicants bank account in Thailand. It is asking about proof of income, ie earnings. Some people misunderstand income to mean “money coming into Thailand”.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

The authentication by a consulate of a signature on a document was a common requirement decades ago. Many countries had a regulation that an importer had to submit a so-called legalised invoice to the customs office.

The exporting company deposited the signature of some managers with a public notary and left instructions with the notary to get the documents legalised. Then, whenever a document needed to be legalised, the company mailed the document to the notary, who mailed it to the designated state office for authentication of his signature, which mailed it to the State Department (Ministry of Foreign Affairs) for authentication of the signature of the State official, which mailed it to the designated consulate for authentication of the signature the State Department official, and from there it was mailed back to the exporter. Thankfully, very few countries nowadays require legalised invoices, but for the honorary consulates it meant a dramatic reduction in income.

--

Maestro

P.S. Of course, the person signing a document can also go personally to the consulate, identify himself, sign the document in the presence of the consular official, and thus obtain the authenticaton of his signature directly without the intermediary authentications.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Maestro
Added postscript - Maestro

[jazzbo]

"The discussion about the authentication of a signature on a US document has no bearing on the requirements for the application of an extension of stay in Thailand. All that is needed is the authentication of the applicants signature by the US consulate in Thailand on the income statement."

All you say is true, Khun Maestro. And that has been the case for the last 3 years I have gone to Suan Phlu. But to quote another recent topic/post:

All answers are true unless you renew in Nongkhai.

[lopburi3]

Nong Khai has told some they want the Consular signature verified by the Ministry oif Foreign Affairs - you have a Thai translation made and get it legalized as you do the marriage paperwork. They are not asking for any paperwork from outside Thailand in this case.

[jazzbo]

An Australian friend of mine -- with an income affidavit from the Australian Embassy in Bangkok -- was sent back to Khon Kaen because he applied for an extension of Visa based on Retirement but did not bring rent receipts from his service apartment... had to make the round trip a second time.

[jazzbo]

My point in starting this topic was to show that authentication of a document issued in the USA is implausible at best. So, to sum this all up from the experts who have kindly responded to my post (Lopburi 2x, Maestro, taxout):

When applying for an extension of Visa based on retirement with a monthly income in excess of 65K Baht:

Obtain the Notarized Letter from the (in this case) US Embassy

Have the Letter authenticated at Chaeng Wattana Legalization Division, Department of Consular Affairs

Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Bring whatever supporting financial documents you might have -- Bank statements, Deposits, Notarized Letter from your bank, etc. -- from outside Thailand but do not be concerned that they are not authenticated as per 'onerous' US Procedure

Bring whatever supporting documents you might have from inside Thailand mainly ATM withdrawal slips, transfers into your Thai bank account, Passbook, etc.

Letter from your Landlord saying what a swell person you are and your rent receipts. (or I guess your house book)

Did I miss anything?

[lopburi3]

Yes - you are talking only about worst case scenario. Most people will not require anything but the Embassy letter as issued in English or Thai.

[jazzbo]

I was recently in the Nong Khai Immigration Office for my 90-day report. I asked if there were WRITTEN instructions as to documents required for Extension of Visa based upon Retirement specifically for the Nong Khai Office above and beyond the notarized letter from (in this Septic's case) the US Embassy.

Such written confirmation does exist -- the writing saying that authentication by Chaeng Wattana of the Embassy Letter is required but that, if in English, no translation into Thai is requested... and beyond that, no further documentation for the Extension of Visa based upon 65K per month income requirement is requested in writing beyond the obvious TM.7, photos, photocopies of pertinent TM.6, Visa/Passport pages, etc.

[lopburi3]

AFAIK there is no such requirement. It was proposed and dropped.

[jazzbo]

AFAIC I have it.

[Lite Beer]

I have seen reports that Nong Khai have asked for this. However my friend (UK) deals with Nong Khai and has never been asked.

He did ask the Officer about this and was told it was only for USA Passport holders as they know that the US Embassy does not ask for evidence of income.

Second hand info. I know but there may be something in it.

[Lite Beer]

Nonsensical posts deleted.

There is no requirement for the Embassy Verification to be Notarised by the MFA . However certain Immigration Offices such as Nong Khai may request this in certain situations. But it is not the norm.

[jazzbo]

I went into the Nong Khai office and said to the officer after geting my 90 daty report: I have 3 extensions of visa based on retirement from Suan Phlu. My next one has to be here in Nong Khai. At Suan Phlu I was only required to show the verification of income from (my) US Embassy and nothing else. I said that I want to know -- here and now and in writing -- what additional information , if any, I may be required to show for such extension HERE IN NONG KHAI. I was handed a piece of paper and items were circled. I said that I wanted it stamped to show that I received this paper here in Nong Khai. It was so stamped.

I am not interested Kuhn LB and Kuhn L what happens in BKK or any other office in the Kingdom -- only at Nong Khai... I have that document and as long as I must travel to Bangkok to go to the US Embassy for income verification, it is no big deal to go to Chaeng Wantanna for the authentication if saves me an additional 6 hours on the train if the NK officers so requests... especially if no translation is required as I stated above. I started dealing with visas from PRChina in 1988 and have several One year multi-entry visas from PR China and India dating to that time when they were near impossible for an individual to receive.

And if you guys have near zero sense of humor, be advised it can lead to hardening of the arteries.

[Lite Beer]

Friends I know apply in Nong Khai and they do not have to supply this document. I know this because the last time my friend applied he did not have this document with him. I travelled up to Nong Khai from KK with him and he did not have this requirement and he got his extension with no problem. Even got a smile.

[jazzbo]

I do not give a R.A. what you and your friends have done. I am only relating my experince. Whatever inferences you care or not care to draw from that are your own. I have an Australian freind who within the last few months was sent back to KK from NK after being denied his Retirement Extension for not having rent receipts... He is a grizzled Vietnam veteran and he received a smile too.

[Lite Beer]

This discussion has become pointless. The OP refuses to listen to any point of view but his own.

CLOSED.