How Many IRS Criminals Out There?

[Heng]

Try somewhere (not Thailand) that fixed deposits don't have automatic 15% withholding. ehm... HK, ehm... Singapore.

Dakar said " reported the amount in the bank, and my Singapore City Bank had me sign some forms that stated that City Bank does report the money to the US

So I had no real choice in the matter, because if Singapore reported to the US and I did not.... that would not work out too well"

I'm trying to understand how the two of you have had such a different experience with Singapore banks. Do they or don't they report to the US? Or are some of the circumstances different between the two of you?

Yeah, my Singapore accounts are opened with a Thai passport, Thai address/telephone/electric bill and thus as a Thai citizen. That said, we do pay our taxes for our entities that are incorporated in the US... we just don't feel the need to do so on a personal level when I feel we're pulling more than our fair share on a corporate level (which I think you'll find is the norm for plenty of SME's where the execs and major shareholders pay themselves a very modest salary).

Anyway, my point was that it's unlikely that there are significant numbers of folks 'hiding' liquid assets in Thailand when it's automatically taxed (or at least held).

Edited July 18, 2009 by Heng

[raysonet]

I live in Thailand, so I don't pay taxes in the US. This is due to the " Convention ......etc"

while it is true you may not "pay" taxes to the US, you still are required to "do" your taxes .. i.e. 1040 .. every year .. and ...you are "required" to submit all financial institution/account information related to amounts over $10,000. Yes, some countries have "tax treaties" to prevent "double taxation" but you still gotta "do" your US taxes. To contrast, if a Canadian lives in another country for a year .. and becomes a "non-resident" of Canada, then the Canadian does not have to "do" Canadian taxes. This makes sense but US scenario does not.

[paperwerks]

51% of USA voters are now dependent on handouts from the other 49% to pay for housing, medical, food, and monthly cash transfer payments. It's all free for them and now that they have siezed power in the US they will vote to take more and more money from the 49%.

They can not be voted out since they are now control 51%+ of the votes. Checkmate. The freeloaders have won.

The 51% need to know where the 49% are keeping their money so that it can be taken away from them.

[Spee]

I live in Thailand, so I don't pay taxes in the US. This is due to the " Convention ......etc"

while it is true you may not "pay" taxes to the US, you still are required to "do" your taxes .. i.e. 1040 .. every year .. and ...you are "required" to submit all financial institution/account information related to amounts over $10,000. Yes, some countries have "tax treaties" to prevent "double taxation" but you still gotta "do" your US taxes. To contrast, if a Canadian lives in another country for a year .. and becomes a "non-resident" of Canada, then the Canadian does not have to "do" Canadian taxes. This makes sense but US scenario does not.

Also, the convention notes social security tax as not applicable. So if a US citizen working in Thailand is not paying into the Thai social security system, then he or she is obligated to pay into the US social security system. Assuming no employer contribution as is done in the US, on an annual salary of $100k USD, this is an additional $15k-$16k of annual tax liability, to be pissed away down the socialist shit-hole.

[j0hnga1t]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

What's the big deal, it's just an information report?  I enforce those laws.  We in Criminal Investigation only go after those who are evading taxes and a sign of that could be not filing the FBAR or checking the box on the schedule B.  You are suppose to file a return as an expat in Thailand (you get an earned income exclusion so you may not owe any taxes).  I will be in your situation in about five years...I hope  .  Same thing goes for transporting more than $10,000USD in and out of the US...it's just an information report.  The presumption is that those who have something to hide will avoid it.

One can argue that even if they file, they won't owe any taxes; HOWEVER, I would file anyway so that the statute of limitations is running.

Double taxation????? That's what a foreign tax credit is for.  I don't think it's a 1 for 1, but it's better than nothing.  

[Spee]

Same thing goes for transporting more than $10,000USD in and out of the US...it's just an information report.  

That's why it's such bullshit. Why do you in the CID, or anyone else in the IRS or government need to know what people do with their personal property when you have absolutely no evidence or reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed? It is a violation of basic constitutional rights to property, privacy and unreasonable search (and seizure). The so-called "information report" is simply a reflection of the abuse and arrogance of power running roughshod over peaceful and law-abiding citizens.

[cshort64]

" . . . if you want to relinquish your US citizenship the IRS will 'value' your estate and tax you on that ..."

Only if you've got pretty considerable wealth or income.

Good Day All

I'm a new guy here to Thailand but I have lived in Asia for 20 years and have seen the changes the IRS has continued to push on us Expat's living and working overseas. The taxation issues are huge, I have complied in the past with the Foreign Bank issues and have done my taxes regularly as I worked for a multinational for most of my career and they covered me with tax equalisation. However, now I am on my own and I don't like the issues and ramifications at all. There is talk that the 80,000 per year tax deduction is going to go totally away and the foreign bank rules are even more challenging.

I am seriously thinking of closing all of my financial accounts in the US and moving the funds to several countries here in Asia. I will be retiring and staying here in Thailand in a few years and thus never going back to the US, has anyone made a simliar decision..... What risks have you seen or heard of.....

Also, the comment about the IRS and Immigration getting their act together, yes this will be a problem, but in reality how fast is this going to happen...is there even a project underway to make this effort....

Thanks for all the informaiton

C

[Naam]

Try somewhere (not Thailand) that fixed deposits don't have automatic 15% withholding. ehm... HK, ehm... Singapore.

American citizens / U.S. persons can try but will not succeed. since several years no bank in Hong Kong nor in Singapore exists that does not report to the IRS and the latter applies for all income AND ALL TRANSACTIONS.

[NanLaew]

So! My mind is made up! I am closing all my accounts in the US and depositing the money in MY bank, the Bank of NanLaew. It's a purely online, internet-only bank and I have set up in a shop in Reykjavik with the latest gear that I got for a steal earlier this year.

Soon, I will be able to take deposits at the Bank of NanLaew and remember, I don't report anything to any government authorities either. You earned it and that's as far as I care. Any currency, any denomination, any size accepted.

PM me if you are interested in making a deposit!

PS. If you want a reference, give my mate Sir Fred a bell.

[Lancelot]

And this year, instead of just a check box that you have over $10,000 in a foreign bank you have to specify exactly how much it is. Bit too nosy seems to me.

Maybe the US government just loves us too mut and wants to be sure that our savings are safe in foreign banks. Yeah, thats it...

[Spee]

I am seriously thinking of closing all of my financial accounts in the US and moving the funds to several countries here in Asia. I will be retiring and staying here in Thailand in a few years and thus never going back to the US, has anyone made a simliar decision..... What risks have you seen or heard of.....

Unfortunately, for you and all of us, this is not really an effective solution. As Naam suggests, their greedy and intrusive little mitts are into everything.

The only real alternatives are not without risk either, such as putting your money into physical assets such as gold (which physical storage becomes risky, fluctuations not withstanding), or moving to a completely "offshore" location such as Caymans or Isle of Man. But it seems to be getting harder and harder to do even that with any kind of anonimity.

The real solution is through political action, to force political leaders to cease and desist from these tyrannical measures to use the force of government to steal as much of your hard earned money as they possibly can. Make no mistake about it. It is little more than legalized theft, taking money from you to give to someone else. Until Americans unite and force the government to back off, they will continue to encroach until we have no freedom or money left.

As for the $80k deduction for expats, Obama has specifically stated that removing this overseas tax exemption is one of his goals for raising more tax revenue. But frankly, that is just plain old bullshit, little more than an excuse for further usurping of power and freedom. The amount of additional revenue to be gained is trivial relative to the massive increases in state spending and only of importance to the individual.

[j0hnga1t]

Spee, even as a government employee, I agree with you, if you don't like it, force (via lobbying and letter writing campaigns) to have the government amend/change/repeal the law, BUT it is a law.

For all who disagree, do what you will. Just remember that if things go bad, you only have yourself to blame. As an employee of big brother, every year I have to fill out a form stating my investments, loans, volunteer position, outside employment etc.....I have to do it to keep my job. Would I lie on it? NO because the consequences are too great. I also go through a background check every five years where they talk to my friends and neighbors.

When I move over to Thailand in five years will I fill out the FBAR? You bet. Will I check the box about foreign accounts on my 1040 Sch B....SURE. I have nothing to hide. If they want to waste their time looking into me, I say have at it. I'll have nothing but time to respond to their inquiries....BUT chances are (and it's probably true for the majority of you), they won't bother you..

[Jingthing]

Considering the election timing, the change in the FBAR form requiring more specific account balance information occurred under the administration of G.W. Bush. That said, the government is cash hungry and must be obeyed. I agree, most definitely, file your FBAR. That is unless you are some kind of big money laundering criminal, in which case I doubt you are perusing this website for advice.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Jingthing

[thaihome]

I live in Thailand, so I don't pay taxes in the US. This is due to the CONVENTION BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE KINGDOM OF THAILAND AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME

The relief from double taxation is done by first excluding $80k+ in income and then giving a one to one to one tax credit for any foreign tax paid on amounts above the exclusion. As others have said, this is not automatic and a US citizen (or permanent resident) must file a tax return each year showing all income received, regardless of source.

The reporting of foreign bank accounts, if required, is a separate filing, except as noted on the 1040 Schedule B. A retiree living in Thailand is almost always going to have to report a foreign bank account since they must have some $24k in a Thai bank at least once a year (unless they have an O-A visa).

TH

[Absingjul]

From today's WSJ:

[lopburi3]

I live in Thailand, so I don't pay taxes in the US. This is due to the CONVENTION BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE KINGDOM OF THAILAND AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME

The relief from double taxation is done by first excluding $80k+ in income and then giving a one to one to one tax credit for any foreign tax paid on amounts above the exclusion. As others have said, this is not automatic and a US citizen (or permanent resident) must file a tax return each year showing all income received, regardless of source.

The reporting of foreign bank accounts, if required, is a separate filing, except as noted on the 1040 Schedule B. A retiree living in Thailand is almost always going to have to report a foreign bank account since they must have some $24k in a Thai bank at least once a year (unless they have an O-A visa).

TH

Or they use Embassy letter of income.

[Heng]

Try somewhere (not Thailand) that fixed deposits don't have automatic 15% withholding. ehm... HK, ehm... Singapore.

American citizens / U.S. persons can try but will not succeed. since several years no bank in Hong Kong nor in Singapore exists that does not report to the IRS and the latter applies for all income AND ALL TRANSACTIONS.

In my experience a good portion of Americans who are holding funds offshore in Asia, Hong Kong and Singapore are Asian-Americans with dual citizenship, often with names that are not the same as their American names, and of course with no SS# attached, just a Thai id/Thai passport for example. The bankers themselves seem to be well aware of this and don't seem to be in any rush to assist the US IRS.

The only way they will ever be able to tax Thai citizen Heng Yan Sing as US citizen John Heng would be if the Thai gov't and US gov't establish tax/id databases (a merged database at that) that included fingerprints or perhaps a DNA registry.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Heng

[Spee]

even as a government employee, I agree with you, if you don't like it, force (via lobbying and letter writing campaigns) to have the government amend/change/repeal the law, BUT it is a law.

Nothing personal but your perspective as a career guv-vie enforcer seems more than a bit skewed. Government exists to serve the people. The Constitution placed specific bounds on the central government for many very good reasons. Over the past 60 years, and more heavily during the last 20 years, the government has succeeded in completely trampling over these restrictions.

As a civil servant you take an oath to serve the people and the Constitution. But who you really serve are the people in government who are responsible for degrading the Constitution to deprive citizens of basic constitutional rights to privacy, liberty and property. The irony of it all is that as a career civil servant, you have been "guaranteed" a far better retirement package than the vast majority of people who work in private industry all their lives. But do you really trust your employer's "guarantee?"

BUT chances are (and it's probably true for the majority of you), they won't bother you..

Rose colored glasses, IMHO, if not opaque.

Besides this isn't really the point is it? The point is not whether some bureaucrat will choose to use private information against one individual or another. The point is that the government is using the force of law to beat citizens into submission of confidential information that at one time was constitutionally protected.

With the major governments so heavily focused on spending massive amounts of money that they don't have, with absolutely no demonstrated intent to rein in spending, the steps to steal money and property from citizens in order to feed the insatiable appetite of the federal monster, the only possible outcome is for the current draconian methods will inevitably only get worse. If history has proven anything, it is that government rules, regulations and policies are most likely to harm the very people that they purport to be helping.

The government can and does use confidential privileged information against people all the time. To believe that the government most likely won't bother you, is like walking down the sidewalk of a ghetto at night. There's a reasonable chance that no one will bother you, but you have to look over your shoulder every step of the way. But if you do get mugged, you are totally hosed and at the mercy of your predators.

Does 1950-1970 Stalinist Russia ring a bell? That's where we are headed and whether you realize it or not, you are little more than a complicit expediter.

The father of a close friend is a retired Soviet Colonel. For 30 years of service, his pension amounts to little more than peanuts, not even enough to keep him supplied with a bit of food and cheap vodka. He has to grow his own crops for subsistence. Why? Because 50 years of tyrannical socialist policies bankrupted the country.

How will you as a career civil servant feel when your pension is eroded to zilch because your employer has bankrupted the country? Whether a hard tyranny like Soviet Russia or a soft tyranny like present day UK and US, the end result is as inevitable now as it was then.

Personally, I fear retirement in Thailand more and more every day because I think our governments are actively engaged in trying to make it unsustainable. The days of the foreign tax exemption are gone if the ruling elite get their way. The days of receiving one's entitled pension while living full time or part time in an overseas retirement locale are gone if the ruling elite get their way.

Why? Because it is easier for bureacrats and politicians to fuc_k people out of their money than it is to rein in their personal political ambitions for power, greed and spending. If you have any doubts, give "Liberty and Tyranny" by Mark Levin a read.

I for one will be crushed if I am unable to seek my pursuits of life liberty and happiness and a retirement life in Thailand, because my government has purposely made it financially unsustainable. For those in this forum who are not so wealthy as to not need a pension to retire comfortably, you should also be worried.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Spee

[Naam]

Try somewhere (not Thailand) that fixed deposits don't have automatic 15% withholding. ehm... HK, ehm... Singapore.

American citizens / U.S. persons can try but will not succeed. since several years no bank in Hong Kong nor in Singapore exists that does not report to the IRS and the latter applies for all income AND ALL TRANSACTIONS.

In my experience a good portion of Americans who are holding funds offshore in Asia, Hong Kong and Singapore are Asian-Americans with dual citizenship, often with names that are not the same as their American names, and of course with no SS# attached, just a Thai id/Thai passport for example. The bankers themselves seem to be well aware of this and don't seem to be in any rush to assist the US IRS.

The only way they will ever be able to tax Thai citizen Heng Yan Sing as US citizen John Heng would be if the Thai gov't and US gov't establish tax/id databases (a merged database at that) that included fingerprints or perhaps a DNA registry.

that is correct Heng as the bankers are only interested to cover their asses. having a (trusted) wife or partner with a non-U.S. passport is another alternative and bankers will be quite happy to accomodate anybody. bankers are not at all interested to fleece their clients on behalf of any taxman if the money does not land up in their pockets

corporations, trusts and similar constructs do not work anymore. no matter how complicated the structure is, it all boils down to the documents "beneficial owner" and "proof of residence" as well as "certifying that non-U.S." all three conditio sine qua non since 2004.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Naam

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

As unreasonable as it may seem, my wife is opposed to me getting a Thai wife and putting everything in her name to protect it from the government. I mean like what could possible go wrong. :D

[Naam]

As unreasonable as it may seem, my wife is opposed to me getting a Thai wife and putting everything in her name to protect it from the government. I mean like what could possible go wrong. :D

wives are known to be unreasonable!

[fiddlehead]

Yesterday's Wall STreet Journal has an article specifically on this subject.

You can read it here (it doesn't look good)

Now, my question to you experts: I only have 80k baht in an account here to satisfy the immigration dept.

Of course that is over $10,000 US.

But I guess i have to file this form to the treasury dept. right?

My alternatives of course are to go after a different kind of visa and spend the money or put it back in a US bank. (I live here half the year and there half)

Any suggestions welcomed. thanks

[Jingthing]

Now, my question to you experts: I only have 80k baht in an account here to satisfy the immigration dept.

Of course that is over $10,000 US.

80K baht, no need to file.

800K baht, yes to file.

If the account (or combination of accounts) is over 10K USD for even one second, you need to file with treasury by June 30 for the previous year.

[fiddlehead]

Now, my question to you experts: I only have 80k baht in an account here to satisfy the immigration dept.

Of course that is over $10,000 US.

80K baht, no need to file.

800K baht, yes to file.

If the account (or combination of accounts) is over 10K USD for even one second, you need to file with treasury by June 30 for the previous year.

Oh yeah sorry, i meant 800k baht. I guess i'll have to spend it before sept 29th when the amnesty is up according to that WSJ article.

[longball53098]

From the IRS site regarding failing to file:

Q. What happens if an account holder is required to file an FBAR and fails to do so?

A. Failure to file an FBAR when required to do so may potentially result in civil penalties, criminal penalties, or both. If you learn you were required to file FBARs for earlier years, you should file the delinquent FBAR reports and attach a statement explaining why the reports are filed late. No penalty will be asserted if the IRS determines that the late filings were due to reasonable cause. Keep copies, for your record, of what you send.

Q. For filing FBARs for prior years, should the current FBAR form be used or should the previous version of the form be used?

A. The current FBAR form (revised in October 2008) may be used to report a financial interest in, or signature or other authority over, financial accounts that were maintained in years prior to 2008. However, since the changes to the current FBAR form reflect a change in the reporting requirements, the instructions for the prior version of the FBAR form (revised in July 2000) may be relied upon for the purpose of determining the filing requirements for properly reporting financial accounts maintained in calendar years prior to 2008.

[Jingthing]

Oh yeah sorry, i meant 800k baht. I guess i'll have to spend it before sept 29th when the amnesty is up according to that WSJ article.

I haven't read this article but remember the rule is about accounts going over 10K USD at ANY TIME during the given calender rule in question. Therefore I wouldn't be certain about any "amnesty" being met by draining the account before that date would apply to reporting for that entire year, unless you know differently. This amnesty is news to a lot of us.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Jingthing

[idrankwhat]

Does this have something to do with the (un)patriot act? I file my taxes every year and mostly I am exempt however; I have never been asked to disclose any of my banking information and unless I am given a subpoena to do so I'm pretty sure it is a violation of my rights. The best course of action is to have an account at Bangkok bank I suppose in this situation as there are branches in NYC which is where I opened my original account thus it is not out of the USA to spite the fact I am depositing in Thailand.

Also what you have mentioned (I have done the research for you) appears to apply to businesses or self employed persons I could not find it under "personal" of "individual". In any event if you are living or working in Thailand and filing your US Taxes I hardly think the IRS is going to hunt you down and I would also mention they have no authority in Thailand to search for your accounts.

Here is the link:

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/articl...=148845,00.html

[Jingthing]

No! No! No! FBAR applies to all Americans. Period. Deal with it.

You are not "asked" to report your foreign bank accounts. You are required to if your foreign accounts go over 10K during a calender year. If you don't like it, write your (old) congressman and don't hold your breath.

Does this have something to do with the (un)patriot act?

I believe FBAR predates 2001. Others can confirm.

I would also mention they have no authority in Thailand to search for your accounts.

Don't count on that. The US is forceful in pressuring foreign governments to cooperate with them and we are a close ally of Thailand. Move to Burma or North Korea and you are probably safe.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Jingthing

[longball53098]

This IRS webpage explains it all:

IRS

[Carmine6]

Now, my question to you experts: I only have 80k baht in an account here to satisfy the immigration dept.

Of course that is over $10,000 US.

80K baht, no need to file.

800K baht, yes to file.

If the account (or combination of accounts) is over 10K USD for even one second, you need to file with treasury by June 30 for the previous year.

Oh yeah sorry, i meant 800k baht. I guess i'll have to spend it before sept 29th when the amnesty is up according to that WSJ article.

That is not an amnesty from filing. It doesn't even appear to be an amnesty from penalties. You would be required to file if you were over $10,000 on any day of the year. Doesn't matter if the account was then closed the day after.

You seem to have no reason to worry about reporting the holding, so you might as well just file, especially if the account earned no interest. The real goal is finding unreported income, so if there is none, it's not as interesting to the IRS. Although penalties are still a win for them.

If someone's trying to fly under the radar, the sooner the account is closed, the better.