Water Canon Used Against Chiang Mai Redshirt’s - 14 Police Injured

[TAWP]

I like arguments over imaginary numbers...

[bayrider1505]

I like arguments over imaginary numbers...

Well, you know those Bank of Thailand people, they love their numbers, imaginary or otherwise. I think they get a lot of money for making them up! Me??? I just like to watch TV. and post on Thaivisa.com website!

[bayrider1505]

Think you'll find that whatever the PAD did Thailand would still have been in a recession as its exports have tanked due to a world recession.

No doubt the airport thing had an effect but it certainly wasnt the difference between recession and no recession.

Talk to some economists about it or even business people. It is quite simple really and the funny thing is everyone agrees on it.

The PAD can be blamed for certain things but they arent responsible for the recession just as the red actions over Songkhran arent either even though they also affected ceertain industries too.

peace.

Well, Mr. Hammered(that's an interesting name, is it due to the fact that you get hammered? via drugs or alcohol? or do you carry a hammer around? sorry, with a name like that you had to expect it coming

Well, Mr. Hammered if you had read the Bank of Thailand report to the Prime Minister you would have noted that they were projecting a 1.8% growth rate DESPITE the economic downturn in the rest of the world! so if you take a hit of 3% of your GDP (because of the PAD/MOB take over of the airport for 9 days)that would put in negative territory. Which part of that sentence are you unable to grasp?

Peace to you too. Mr. Hammered.

It might be just me. However, I would think the Bank of Thailand has more credibility on their official report to the Prime Minister of Thailand than our esteemed colleague Mr. "Hammered" has on the state of the Thai economy. I also have no idea of the economists and business people he is referring to? Are they in the lower part of Sukhumvit? near Nana?

[sriracha john]

Veera has an opinion piece on LCM51 in the post today:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...singly-thuggish

Shortly before their arrival in Chiang Mai on Thursday, a red shirt supporter identified as Niyom Luangcharoen was stopped by police as he was driving into the provincial airport. A search of his pick-up truck found an unlicensed .45-calibre pistol. Niyom was immediately booked on a charge of illegal possession of firearms and taken to Phuping Ratchanives police station.

When news of Niyom's arrest reached the Rak Chiang Mai 51 group, their community radio, 99.25 MHz, urged red shirt supporters to head for the police station to demand the unconditional release of the suspect. A few hundred showed up and laid siege to the station while police called for reinforcements. The confrontation eventually turned ugly with the red shirt mob throwing missiles, firing slingshots at the police and damaging police cars. Five gunshots were heard but, luckily, no one was hurt. When the trouble ended after police successfully dispersed the mob, 13 police officers were left injured, mostly from missiles, and five cars were damaged.

=========================================================================

Reminiscent of Nattawut on April 12th (courtesy of DTV Station):

[hammered]

Mr/Ms bay from the state of that reply maybe the lower end of sukhumvit is where you find yourself. Dont frequent those parts myself.

The BoT estimates growth for 2009 as -3.5% to -1.5% (down form its Jan estimate) with a note that political events could result in it being closer to the lower end. As to the airprot and Songkhran events we find the word estimate (nobody really knows) and 8-9 billion dollars in the case of th eairport and 2-3 billion dollars in the case of the riot with a note that the airport seizure in September just before the tourist high season meant it affected the economy more than the April riot at the tourist low season.

It should be noted though that governments and governmental agents quite likely estimate these things high as it is an opportunity to lay blame away from government and agencies

You will find it hard to find too many economists who believe that Thailand is in recession because of political problems although they play their part in worsening things. That is roundly blamed on Thailand's economy being so overdependent on exports to the west which is fine until the west faces a recession. That by the way is an economic model pursued by all Thai governments.

By the way although I like a drink and do indeed have a hammer in my home neither are behind my name but I'll leave that as a mystery for now.

[Plus]

A western educated Thai friend of mine voted this way and he certainly has no love for Thaksin but considered these parties to be the best option at the time compared to the Democrats as is his democratic right. In elections way back he was a staunch Democrat. As he said to me "How would you feel if your vote was declared null and void not once but twice?"

What was he talking about?

There's a good chance his elected MP is still in parliament, drawing his salary.

If he meant 2006 coup - parliament was dissolved half a year earlier, there was nothing to declare "null and void".

If he meant bans on party executives - those provisions were in 1997 constitution, and there were by-elections to fill the vacant seats.

His complaint just doesn't make any sense.

[brahmburgers]

PAD protests have generally been peaceful.

Red Shirt protests usually involve violence, right from the get-go. The recent C.Mai trouble is testament to that. They arrived en masse with weapons and started injuring others right away. Have such incidents happened with Yellow shirts? No.

As for non-violent protests in general. Take an overall view of India's attempts to gain independence from Britain. Earlier on, there were violent protests and massacres, by both sides. What was accomplished? Only more polarization and hatred. Gandhi came along, and though it was a long difficult struggle, his mind-boggling (at the time) policy of non-violent protests finally achieved their goal.

M.L.King built on that legacy, and accomplished much more with non-violent protests than others had accomplished during the preceding decades - which were highlighted with violent protests and violent responses.

If T was half the man he pretends to be, he would insist that his followers adhere to non-violent tactics. Everyone knows he controls the overall game plan of the Red Shirts, so for him to not publicly condemn violent actions by his supporters (done in his name), only spells trouble for him and his cause.

[Publicus]

PAD protests have generally been peaceful.

Red Shirt protests usually involve violence, right from the get-go. The recent C.Mai trouble is testament to that. They arrived en masse with weapons and started injuring others right away. Have such incidents happened with Yellow shirts? No.

As for non-violent protests in general. Take an overall view of India's attempts to gain independence from Britain. Earlier on, there were violent protests and massacres, by both sides. What was accomplished? Only more polarization and hatred. Gandhi came along, and though it was a long difficult struggle, his mind-boggling (at the time) policy of non-violent protests finally achieved their goal.

M.L.King built on that legacy, and accomplished much more with non-violent protests than others had accomplished during the preceding decades - which were highlighted with violent protests and violent responses.

If T was half the man he pretends to be, he would insist that his followers adhere to non-violent tactics. Everyone knows he controls the overall game plan of the Red Shirts, so for him to not publicly condemn violent actions by his supporters (done in his name), only spells trouble for him and his cause.

I was with you and pleased to be so until the last paragraph. Gandhi and MLK Jr, yes.

However, given T's track record since 2001, I just can't see any reason to believe or hope that T is a rational player. T's been in a spiral of self-destruction from the start. The spiral only has accelerated and intensified during the past few years. Now T wants to take Thailand to hel_l with him.

How about a possible alternative--an externally supervised general election asap?

Edited July 20, 2009 by Publicus

[mca]

A western educated Thai friend of mine voted this way and he certainly has no love for Thaksin but considered these parties to be the best option at the time compared to the Democrats as is his democratic right. In elections way back he was a staunch Democrat. As he said to me "How would you feel if your vote was declared null and void not once but twice?"

What was he talking about?

There's a good chance his elected MP is still in parliament, drawing his salary.

If he meant 2006 coup - parliament was dissolved half a year earlier, there was nothing to declare "null and void".

If he meant bans on party executives - those provisions were in 1997 constitution, and there were by-elections to fill the vacant seats.

His complaint just doesn't make any sense.

I think he meant that in his opinion the party that he and the majority voted into power are no longer in power without being ousted in an election.

[animatic]

Nails get hammered straight and true if possible.

A house gets built from many hammers at work.

A loose nail gets hammered back down too.

Bells get rung by hammers also.

So maybe he is a clarion call for thought.

Neither here nor there, but you coming in and flaming him

after a paltry 10 days is not very nice of you.

Against forum rules by the way.

Or do you know him from past run ins???

A little hisotry:

The PAD was at the Bridge and making noise, but not rampaging around.

They had upped their defensive weapons AFTER the red Shirt violent attack

as they tried to speak at a rally farther north. Beat till they left town.

Cause and effect:

violent attack, causes increased defensive capabilities.

Ah, but it still was an essential PEACEFUL protest.

When Samak wanted his State Of Emergency,

he let his red dogs of war off the chain,

and they DID rampage up the streets of Bangkok

with machetes and sling shots and other deadly weapons.

While accompanied by a few PPP MP's who had ACTIVELY

wound them up back at their protest grounds.

The upshot of this was:

A State of Emergency;

that soon showed Samak as not having the power he thought.

A death of one armed red shirt while attacking PADs encampment.

(What happened to his widow's PPP backed lawsuit? Nada.)

It DID produce pictures seen world wide of

crazy mobs fighting with deadly weapons in Bangkok streets, the second violent Red attack on PAD,

and THAT dear friends was the FIRST thing that started running tourists off in any numbers.

It also caused PAD to 'up the anti' against Samak and march to Government House.

Again, cause and effect:

A peaceful, but politically annoying, protest is attacked again,

by a red mob causing an escalation in tactics and hardening of resolve.

Things went along relatively peacefully, baring Red Shirt drive bys at PAD security points,

IE. continued violent provocations, untill the Pro Thaksin Constitution re-write was tried,

PPP was so desperate to pull it off the let the dogs off the leash yet again.

But the PAD was much more hyped up than expected, when confronted with serious violence

against them they reacted quite in kind, and that caused the second set of world wide pics

showing Thailand as out of control. And proving Somchai being NOT in control of much.

Again words and accusations, but not PAD violence, no roving PAD attacks,

just a retreeat to Government house, and the ongoing war of words.

Until Sae Dang's motivated little night raids with grenades

causing deaths of a wide range of ages.

Cause and effect PAD move AGAIN upping the anti against Somchai.

Seems PAD was making the lil guy and Thaksin lose to much face,

and someone thought it was good to blast them out of their strong hold.

Each escalation was not PAD planned before,

but was a REACTION to violent Red provocations.

Each case the reds cause PAD to up the anti....

So to FINALLY see the Red violences being dealt with, with a firm hand, is a good sign.

This has NOTHING to do with some of the Red Shirt desires for the country,

and EVERYTHING to do with their unchecked propensity for using violence to silence

opposing voices and attempt to control communications up country.

Songkran was the line in the sand they crossed.

Phuket's security blanket and Chaigmai's water cannons makes that

a much clearer statement that:

the line has been crossed, enough is enough.

Since the Red Shirts have been Thaksin's propaganda and street weapon, even while still in office,

going back even before the Caravan Of the Poor attacks on The Nations compound.

It is pretty clear that this crew, and their violence against dissenting opinions being voiced,

has been Thaksin's, more than tacit, but actual violent weapon against dissenters,

his equivalent to The Brown Shirts in Germany prior to WWII.

A suppression weapon using what ever tacts will get the job down.

Used for those not cowed by the continuous string of legal assaults on the press and acadmia.

Edited July 20, 2009 by animatic

[animatic]

Let's not forget the exaggerated financial assaults on dissenters also.

So who imagines with all his likely purloined money on the line,

that Thaksin would suddenly become "half the man he says he is"?

An icon of Democracy,

Defender of the Thai people,

Good guy looking out for Thailand vs the elite....

whom HE IS ONE OF...

His complaint just doesn't make any sense.

I think he meant that in his opinion the party that he and the majority voted into power

are no longer in power without being ousted in an election.

Except by Thai law they need NOT be ousted from power in an election.

They screwed up so much, and so often, that they handed their opponents

enough legal ammunition to lower their numbers enough to cause a shift in power.

TRT / PPP brought on their own downfalls from their own greed,

arrogance over the laws and /or ignorance of the laws.

PS. you use a hammer to crack nuts too.

Edited July 20, 2009 by animatic

[bayrider1505]

Mr/Ms bay from the state of that reply maybe the lower end of sukhumvit is where you find yourself. Dont frequent those parts myself.

The BoT estimates growth for 2009 as -3.5% to -1.5% (down form its Jan estimate) with a note that political events could result in it being closer to the lower end. As to the airprot and Songkhran events we find the word estimate (nobody really knows) and 8-9 billion dollars in the case of th eairport and 2-3 billion dollars in the case of the riot with a note that the airport seizure in September just before the tourist high season meant it affected the economy more than the April riot at the tourist low season.

It should be noted though that governments and governmental agents quite likely estimate these things high as it is an opportunity to lay blame away from government and agencies

You will find it hard to find too many economists who believe that Thailand is in recession because of political problems although they play their part in worsening things. That is roundly blamed on Thailand's economy being so overdependent on exports to the west which is fine until the west faces a recession. That by the way is an economic model pursued by all Thai governments.

By the way although I like a drink and do indeed have a hammer in my home neither are behind my name but I'll leave that as a mystery for now.

The economists I am citing in my message works for the Bank of Thailand. Who are the economists you are citing who backs your claims? For what organization do they work for, again?

[mca]

Neither here nor there, but you coming in and flaming him

after a paltry 10 days is not very nice of you.

Against forum rules by the way.

Or do you know him from past run ins???

Is this referring to me?

[ballpoint]

A little hisotry:

The PAD was at the Bridge and making noise, but not rampaging around.

They had upped their defensive weapons AFTER the red Shirt violent attack

as they tried to speak at a rally farther north. Beat till they left town.

Cause and effect:

violent attack, causes increased defensive capabilities.

Ah, but it still was an essential PEACEFUL protest.

When Samak wanted his State Of Emergency,

he let his red dogs of war off the chain,

and they DID rampage up the streets of Bangkok

with machetes and sling shots and other deadly weapons.

While accompanied by a few PPP MP's who had ACTIVELY

wound them up back at their protest grounds.

The upshot of this was:

A State of Emergency;

that soon showed Samak as not having the power he thought.

A death of one armed red shirt while attacking PADs encampment.

(What happened to his widow's PPP backed lawsuit? Nada.)

It DID produce pictures seen world wide of

crazy mobs fighting with deadly weapons in Bangkok streets, the second violent Red attack on PAD,

and THAT dear friends was the FIRST thing that started running tourists off in any numbers.

It also caused PAD to 'up the anti' against Samak and march to Government House.

Again, cause and effect:

A peaceful, but politically annoying, protest is attacked again,

by a red mob causing an escalation in tactics and hardening of resolve.

Things went along relatively peacefully, baring Red Shirt drive bys at PAD security points,

IE. continued violent provocations, untill the Pro Thaksin Constitution re-write was tried,

PPP was so desperate to pull it off the let the dogs off the leash yet again.

But the PAD was much more hyped up than expected, when confronted with serious violence

against them they reacted quite in kind, and that caused the second set of world wide pics

showing Thailand as out of control. And proving Somchai being NOT in control of much.

Again words and accusations, but not PAD violence, no roving PAD attacks,

just a retreeat to Government house, and the ongoing war of words.

Until Sae Dang's motivated little night raids with grenades

causing deaths of a wide range of ages.

Cause and effect PAD move AGAIN upping the anti against Somchai.

Seems PAD was making the lil guy and Thaksin lose to much face,

and someone thought it was good to blast them out of their strong hold.

Each escalation was not PAD planned before,

but was a REACTION to violent Red provocations.

Each case the reds cause PAD to up the anti....

So to FINALLY see the Red violences being dealt with, with a firm hand, is a good sign.

This has NOTHING to do with some of the Red Shirt desires for the country,

and EVERYTHING to do with their unchecked propensity for using violence to silence

opposing voices and attempt to control communications up country.

Songkran was the line in the sand they crossed.

Phuket's security blanket and Chaigmai's water cannons makes that

a much clearer statement that:

the line has been crossed, enough is enough.

Since the Red Shirts have been Thaksin's propaganda and street weapon, even while still in office,

going back even before the Caravan Of the Poor attacks on The Nations compound.

It is pretty clear that this crew, and their violence against dissenting opinions being voiced,

has been Thaksin's, more than tacit, but actual violent weapon against dissenters,

his equivalent to The Brown Shirts in Germany prior to WWII.

A suppression weapon using what ever tacts will get the job down.

Used for those not cowed by the continuous string of legal assaults on the press and acadmia.

Well said. Unfortunately, whenever facts are pointed out to the Thaksinistas, they come back with bizarre claims that it wasn't the red shirts doing the violence, despite, as you say, the red shirt leaders marching at the head of the mob. Indeed, most Thaksin apologist's main argument is "someone else did it first". "Thaksin was corrupt - but previous PM's were too". "The red shirts are violent thugs - but the PAD used violence too". The red shirts sole reason for forming was to attack the peaceful PAD demonstrations. Some people would have us believe they've moved on from then, but as the events prior to, and during Songkran, and the regular upheavals in Chiang Mai prove, they have not. They remain as Thaksin's militia. There may be some cooler heads in there, but one must seriously question the wisdom of anyone joining a militant organisation in order to try and press for their own ideals. Akin to joining the British National Front because you don't like how Gordon Brown came into office.

[BigBikeBKK]

I like arguments over imaginary numbers...

Well, you know those Bank of Thailand people, they love their numbers, imaginary or otherwise. I think they get a lot of money for making them up! Me??? I just like to watch TV. and post on Thaivisa.com website!

[animatic]

Neither here nor there, but you coming in and flaming him

after a paltry 10 days is not very nice of you.

Against forum rules by the way.

Or do you know him from past run ins???

Is this referring to me?

No, not you.

[GungaDin]

I like arguments over imaginary numbers...

Well, you know those Bank of Thailand people, they love their numbers, imaginary or otherwise. I think they get a lot of money for making them up! Me??? I just like to watch TV. and post on Thaivisa.com website!

Bayrider

Banned:

Sept 08 after only 26 posts,

only 8 on display, the rest are in the "Trash"

Coincidence?

[sriracha john]

Video News Link showing violent Red Shirt clash and attack on police:

http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/ns_asia/...2686280838.html

Thaksin Supporters Clash with Police in Northern Thailand

Not quite as good as the footage in the above link, but...

About 1,000 policeman block the Nimmanahemin Road in front of the Chiang Mai University to prevent some 200 red-shirt protesters from storming into the university’s auditorium to disrupt the meeting of Finance Minister Korn Chatikavanij.

The Nation

Edited July 20, 2009 by sriracha john

[Lite Beer]

Post containing inappropriate references to The Royal Family deleted.

[bayrider1505]

I actually find it amusing that there is all this talk of yellow shirt/red shirt stuff. It is my estimation that within 3 years all the yellow shirts will be exchanging their garb to pin stripe(prison gear courtesy of the Thai government they put in power)

Of course this is only my conjecture and I could be mistaken. After all I am human and I could make mistakes. However, I think this would not be the case here. I would give it a 95% probability.

Well, in the USA there are 2 things you don’t mess around with. Money owed to the government from TAXES and the US military. If you owe money to the IRS in the USA, you better pay it since they will hunt you down and take everything away from if you tried to evade taxes. I gave 50% of my income to USA when I was working as a computer engineer because I was in the highest income bracket at the time. I paid $100,000 in the year 2000 just before I retired. Secondly, you do not mess with the US military as Sadam Hussein found out after they killed him and his 2 sons.

Well, I know for sure that in the USA if you were the organizers of a mob of people who closed down an international airport and as a consequence cost the USA 3% of our nominal GDP and made our country slip into recession that you would qualify for the “America’s Most Wanted” list. I think they will hunt you down like the canine you are and deliver swift and terrible justice to you and anyone you care about. They usually freeze all your assets in any bank and also freeze the money of all your relatives in concern that they might give you some of their money so you could eat. So, you have not only destroyed yourself, you have destroyed the lives of all your relatives too!

Of course it does take time for justice to come to a head. We see that in Bernard Madoff’s case where it took decades before they got him. However in the case of the PAD organizers the terrible swift sword of Thai justice will come a lot quicker. After all, everything is not only black and white it is well documented in Bangkok Post and Nations newspapers. It is just a matter of time before the Thai general population connect the dots together and want justice be carried out. At that time there will be no where for the PAD people to hide. This is what I think will happen in less than 3 years time.

[TAWP]

The US didn't kill Saddam...

[emancipationthailand]

I actually find it amusing that there is all this talk of yellow shirt/red shirt stuff. It is my estimation that within 3 years all the yellow shirts will be exchanging their garb to pin stripe(prison gear courtesy of the Thai government they put in power)

Of course this is only my conjecture and I could be mistaken. After all I am human and I could make mistakes. However, I think this would not be the case here. I would give it a 95% probability.

Well, in the USA there are 2 things you don't mess around with. Money owed to the government from TAXES and the US military. If you owe money to the IRS in the USA, you better pay it since they will hunt you down and take everything away from if you tried to evade taxes. I gave 50% of my income to USA when I was working as a computer engineer because I was in the highest income bracket at the time. I paid $100,000 in the year 2000 just before I retired. Secondly, you do not mess with the US military as Sadam Hussein found out after they killed him and his 2 sons.

Well, I know for sure that in the USA if you were the organizers of a mob of people who closed down an international airport and as a consequence cost the USA 3% of our nominal GDP and made our country slip into recession that you would qualify for the "America's Most Wanted" list. I think they will hunt you down like the canine you are and deliver swift and terrible justice to you and anyone you care about. They usually freeze all your assets in any bank and also freeze the money of all your relatives in concern that they might give you some of their money so you could eat. So, you have not only destroyed yourself, you have destroyed the lives of all your relatives too!

Of course it does take time for justice to come to a head. We see that in Bernard Madoff's case where it took decades before they got him. However in the case of the PAD organizers the terrible swift sword of Thai justice will come a lot quicker. After all, everything is not only black and white it is well documented in Bangkok Post and Nations newspapers. It is just a matter of time before the Thai general population connect the dots together and want justice be carried out. At that time there will be no where for the PAD people to hide. This is what I think will happen in less than 3 years time.

As a deprived Thai citizen, i'm glad to see your rep. ขอบคุณมากๆ นะครับ ^^

[sriracha john]

I actually find it amusing

[justanothercybertosser]

The red shirts sole reason for forming was to attack the peaceful PAD demonstrations.

Very interesting - for a "peaceful" protest group the PAD have killed and injured rather more than just a few people. Any comment on the corpse left at Don Muang, the man who was killed at the barricades behind the metropolitan police headquarters, the group of five youngsters who were shot at at the barricades just because they made a wrong turn, or the more than 50 year old man who was clubbed to death in front of running cameras. Or the armed attacks on Vibhavadi Soi 3? Or the many PAD guards who were arrested with guns and bombs? Or the police officers who were shot and badly injured during Oct. 7th?

Nonviolence, or Ahingsa, is defined by complete nonviolence. That means no iron bars, golf cluns, guns, bombs, barbed wire barricades and whatever else the PAD used to "defend" themselves. That also includes not shooting guns at journalist's vehicles, such as happened to a TNN van at Don Muang.

[Plus]

I think he meant that in his opinion the party that he and the majority voted into power are no longer in power without being ousted in an election.

Still makes no sense. People in Thailand do not vote for governments, MPs do.

Your friend couldn't have been robbed of a vote he didn't cast.

His elected MP, on the other hand, exercised his right to vote for the government twice last year, I assume.

>>>

How about a little quiz - who was the candidate for the Prime Minister post proposed by PPP in December vote? Can you remember it off the top of your head? What do you know about him?

I don't know your answers, but I suspect it wasn't such a big, memorable loss after all.

[brahmburgers]

Bandying numbers around, re; loss of tourist revenue due to airport shut-down is out of hand.

It's easy to spout numbers of ten or hundreds of billions of baht.

Yes, the airport closure of just over a week was immensely inconvenient for travelers during those days, and it did contribute to tarnishing Thailand's reputation as a tourist destination.

However, there are/were many other factors contributing to sagging numbers for Thai tourism. Shall I make a list?

[Plus]

Very interesting - for a "peaceful" protest group the PAD have killed and injured...

PAD or PAD guards?

Even a peaceful movement has a right to defend itself from attackers by hiring a security force.

... 50 year old man who was clubbed to death in front of running cameras.

That's a spin. The whole story included a thousand strong red mob storming the smaller PAD camp in the middle of the night. PAD guards mobilised in time and beat the attackers back, one of the attackers got killed.

[Plus]

Re. airport - one week, 2% of GDP. That's just ridiculous - the whole country of 65 million produces 2% of GDP in one week, not just one airport with a few thosand employees.

Over New Year I went to a resort on Koh Chang, it was fully booked with foreign tourists. On the way back to Bangkok I stopped in Pattaya and went to Hopf Brewhouse on Beach road, it was fully packed, there was a line to get a seat.

I don't think any of those tourists were overly concerned that the airport was closed just three weeks earlier. I don't think anyone coming (or not coming) now even remembers that incident.

[hammered]

Anyone know what has happened about Niyom, the guy with the weapon at CM airport?

[Plus]

Released on bail