American Subtlety

[tlock]

From this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/-t285745.html&st=25

"hey i have heard that bitch of you is going to fleece you"(American style)

...

Not serious of course but Americans aren't known for their subtlety around the world

Didn't want to hijack the other thread, but I was just talking to my gf about this last night. I'm American, and I was telling her I have a hard time with my farang friends from other countries, because I never know what they think. I am a blunt American, if it comes into my head chances are I say it out loud, and I think I am constantly offending my more subtle friends from the continent. And because of their polite subtlety, they never tell me that I have offended them until they are drunk at 4am and they bring up the one time that I left the room without shaking everyone's hands, or the other time they told me dinner was at 8 and I showed up at 10 and demanded leftovers. In my mind good friends sort of bypass etiquette, etiquette is for strangers... My gf told me when I first met her she found me quite offensive as well until she got used to me. As in "I can't believe he just said that".

I guess I don't exactly have a question... This just came into my head and I had to say it.

[Minke]

From this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/-t285745.html&st=25

"hey i have heard that bitch of you is going to fleece you"(American style)

...

Not serious of course but Americans aren't known for their subtlety around the world

Didn't want to hijack the other thread, but I was just talking to my gf about this last night. I'm American, and I was telling her I have a hard time with my farang friends from other countries, because I never know what they think. I am a blunt American, if it comes into my head chances are I say it out loud, and I think I am constantly offending my more subtle friends from the continent. And because of their polite subtlety, they never tell me that I have offended them until they are drunk at 4am and they bring up the one time that I left the room without shaking everyone's hands, or the other time they told me dinner was at 8 and I showed up at 10 and demanded leftovers. In my mind good friends sort of bypass etiquette, etiquette is for strangers... My gf told me when I first met her she found me quite offensive as well until she got used to me. As in "I can't believe he just said that".

I guess I don't exactly have a question... This just came into my head and I had to say it.

As an American, yes I agree we are very blunt and open as a generalization. HOWEVER, blunt/direct and tactful are not mutually exclusive. You can say very explicit things in a way that is not offensive, aggressive, or accusatory.

"That girl might be a total golddigging ho and her weasel-ass brother was talking some shit about fleecing you, watch out" and "I know you're into this girl but just be careful. It may be nothing more than gossip but I have heard her brother saying some sketchy stuff about fleecing you so just keep your eyes open." are both direct and honest.

[zzaa09]

OK. It is what it is. I'm guessing there is some need to associate cultural comparatives? Everything is different from the next. Dare I say, distancing oneself from fabricated standards and absolutes is healthier than not.

[glennaa11]

or the other time they told me dinner was at 8 and I showed up at 10 and demanded leftovers. In my mind good friends sort of bypass etiquette, etiquette is for strangers... My gf told me when I first met her she found me quite offensive as well until she got used to me. As in "I can't believe he just said that".

I guess I don't exactly have a question... This just came into my head and I had to say it.

Well, there is etiquette and then there is common courtesy. If you show up two hours late to dinner and demand leftovers you would make anyone with an ounce of self-respect angry. I would think you would want to treat your friends at least as well as you treat strangers. You sound like a pretty self-absorbed person based on this post anyway.

As an American who doesn't say every little thing that pops into his head, I have to say it is people like you who give the rest of us the "Ugly American" stereotype to overcome.

[tlock]

Well, there is etiquette and then there is common courtesy. If you show up two hours late to dinner and demand leftovers you would make anyone with an ounce of self-respect angry. I would think you would want to treat your friends at least as well as you treat strangers. You sound like a pretty self-absorbed person based on this post anyway.

As an American who doesn't say every little thing that pops into his head, I have to say it is people like you who give the rest of us the "Ugly American" stereotype to overcome.

Lol- "demanded" maybe is a strong word. "Hey bro- sorry I missed dinner, something came up. Any leftovers in the fridge?" This wouldn't bother me in the least from a friend. Actually wouldn't bother me from a stranger either. So much for "do unto others" eh?

[bojo]

I guess if you end up with no mates, you'll know you've got it wrong. Sounds to me like you're doing alright, some people don't even have a girlfriend, let alone friends.

I'd much rather read your face than an all smiling poker faced local who's got intentions I never even knew existed.

Regards Bojo

[PeaceBlondie]

I've said a trillion times that Americans never exaggerate. As for irony, we could care less.

[teddy_bare]

From this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/-t285745.html&st=25

"hey i have heard that bitch of you is going to fleece you"(American style)

...

Not serious of course but Americans aren't known for their subtlety around the world

Didn't want to hijack the other thread, but I was just talking to my gf about this last night. I'm American, and I was telling her I have a hard time with my farang friends from other countries, because I never know what they think. I am a blunt American, if it comes into my head chances are I say it out loud, and I think I am constantly offending my more subtle friends from the continent. And because of their polite subtlety, they never tell me that I have offended them until they are drunk at 4am and they bring up the one time that I left the room without shaking everyone's hands, or the other time they told me dinner was at 8 and I showed up at 10 and demanded leftovers. In my mind good friends sort of bypass etiquette, etiquette is for strangers... My gf told me when I first met her she found me quite offensive as well until she got used to me. As in "I can't believe he just said that".

I guess I don't exactly have a question... This just came into my head and I had to say it.

Hello mate,

You could be any of my american mates

[backsoon]

Dear friend. There are many myths about 'Americans'. Not all true. Not for all americans.

About 'things' coming into your mind,- check the things, before blurting out. If this doesn't help,- shut your mind. If you can't help blurting out whatever comes into your mind,- shut your mouth. Stop praising yourself for being open, direct, blunt sort of person. Maybe you are just unsophisticated? Or don't care about others' feelings? Or plain stupid?

No offence meant, but Europeans have had about 2000 years more to develop these things.

Personally, I never liked the 'American style'. About 3 years ago I visited USA for the first time. Now I know that my intuition was right. Too many of your countrymen are loud, obnoxious, uncouth, poorly educated and selfrighteous. Too many are overly 'friendly', with only intent,- to screw one for money. They put 'IN GOD WE TRUST' onto their currency notes, for lack of any moral or religious considerations. Maybe this is why they worship money?

I hate to generalise, or categorise people. I have many good american friends. They know my feelings and often share them.

So, my friend, have a long hard look at yourself...

With best intentions, Backsoon.

[GrahamF]

Dear friend. There are many myths about 'Americans'. Not all true. Not for all americans.

About 'things' coming into your mind,- check the things, before blurting out. If this doesn't help,- shut your mind. If you can't help blurting out whatever comes into your mind,- shut your mouth. Stop praising yourself for being open, direct, blunt sort of person. Maybe you are just unsophisticated? Or don't care about others' feelings? Or plain stupid?

No offence meant, but Europeans have had about 2000 years more to develop these things.

Personally, I never liked the 'American style'. About 3 years ago I visited USA for the first time. Now I know that my intuition was right. Too many of your countrymen are loud, obnoxious, uncouth, poorly educated and selfrighteous. Too many are overly 'friendly', with only intent,- to screw one for money. They put 'IN GOD WE TRUST' onto their currency notes, for lack of any moral or religious considerations. Maybe this is why they worship money?

I hate to generalise, or categorise people. I have many good american friends. They know my feelings and often share them.

So, my friend, have a long hard look at yourself...

With best intentions, Backsoon.

Yes, your 2000 years of extra development clearly shows in the subtlety and tact displayed in you post. Please enlighten us more, O Great Sage of All Things American.

Some of my best friends are.............(you fill in the blank). A little ironic humor for you.

So, my friend, have a long hard look at yourself, whatever.

Of course with all the best intentions (so this makes everything ok),

Graham

[bigNavySeal]

Haha that were some funny responses from the last two Backsoon and GrahamF, eliminating their slightly offensive tone. I see Backsoon's point of view though, and can respect Graham's ironic response. I'm European (Dutch) myself and ought to say that I very much like Thai behaviour more than Farang behaviour altogether, this would particularly include both North American and European. For me it more comes down to the subtleness of character, not necessarily those things that you say. I tend to just throw out anything that comes up in my mind as well, but it depends very much on how you do it.

As we all here on this page (I presume) live in Thailand, we have something to compare with (different behaviours/attitudes in various cultures/societies). Ofcourse we are purely talking about general moralistic and behavioural issues in terms of friendships/relationships (ofcourse there are a Zillion issues Thai society can do a zillion times better at). Personally a thing that I have some trouble with dealing with generally 'Young' Westerners is their 'attitude' and sometimes unsincerity of their friendship intent. Now don't interper this wrong, but what I'm trying to say is that I generally like behaviour of Thais & Philipinos particulary, when it comes to being close friends.

Needless to say that most of my close friends are indeed Asian (and elderly, as I like their sincerity as well, I have a good close friend from Australia who's 80+). It's very easy to be yourself around them, feeling you're not always judged, etc. People have relationships on all levels, so it ofcourse depends, and I have plenty of farang friends, particularly great and nice Irish friends, but more on a superficial level, they are too 'excessive' too me, a bit stressful to be around with.

Anyways, this is my point of view, as we all see everyone has different views & experiences, but hey let us all share. So Tlock, coming back to your original message, I believe it comes down more on the intent on what you're saying ALWAYS keeping in mind your attitude and intent towards the particular person you are talking to, more than to what you are actually saying.

[tlock]

Interesting responses.

I think it's probably fair to say this isn't really an "american/european" thing as much as it's a dialogue between people who may be perceived to be blunt or rude (that's me- i'm trying to be clear and open) and people who are subtle and socially sophisticated (sometimes I really can't decipher what you really want to say).

That said, the thais are by far the most subtle of all...

I

[zzaa09]

Self-important fancy.

[manu69manu]

Don't really care for them either but without the US most countries wouldn't have the freedom they have. Why is the US, UK, and Aussies the only countries with backbone to stand up for what's right.

[GarryP]

And then look at it from the American perspective. They probably think that a lot of Europeans are a pain for being so reticent and uncommunicative.

[zzaa09]

Don't really care for them either but without the US most countries wouldn't have the freedom they have. Why is the US, UK, and Aussies the only countries with backbone to stand up for what's right.

The flight from intelligent cognitivity {a subliminal paradox, actually} is quite astounding...

[Bakeman]

EASY FIX

The one word that can fix all of the issues here is RESPECT. for other peoples feelings, other peoples pasts, and most of all respect for other peoples cultures. When in Thailand be Thai etc......

[zzaa09]

EASY FIX

The one word that can fix all of the issues here is RESPECT. for other peoples feelings, other peoples pasts, and most of all respect for other peoples cultures. When in Thailand be Thai etc......

Well intended, but such character traits are rare to find in the Western world.

[elibangkok]

EASY FIX

The one word that can fix all of the issues here is RESPECT. for other peoples feelings, other peoples pasts, and most of all respect for other peoples cultures. When in Thailand be Thai etc......

Hard to argue with being respectful, but "when in Thailand be Thai" is a different story.

I look at it differently and try to bring the best aspects of my upbringing/culture to those I interact with, add it to what they have to offer and build something better.

[onnut]

From this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/-t285745.html&st=25

"hey i have heard that bitch of you is going to fleece you"(American style)

...

Not serious of course but Americans aren't known for their subtlety around the world

Didn't want to hijack the other thread, but I was just talking to my gf about this last night. I'm American, and I was telling her I have a hard time with my farang friends from other countries, because I never know what they think. I am a blunt American, if it comes into my head chances are I say it out loud, and I think I am constantly offending my more subtle friends from the continent. And because of their polite subtlety, they never tell me that I have offended them until they are drunk at 4am and they bring up the one time that I left the room without shaking everyone's hands, or the other time they told me dinner was at 8 and I showed up at 10 and demanded leftovers. In my mind good friends sort of bypass etiquette, etiquette is for strangers... My gf told me when I first met her she found me quite offensive as well until she got used to me. As in "I can't believe he just said that".

I guess I don't exactly have a question... This just came into my head and I had to say it.

mate, I am English and sometimes act like that. nothing to be ashamed about. life would be boring if we were all the same. most Americans are too loud in restaurants though! why is that?

[Jingthing]

most Americans are too loud in restaurants though! why is that?

We're deaf, mate! ROCK AND ROLL!

I think all these generalizations about Americans are just plain IGNORANT.

OK, I do acknowledge that the USA indeed has a culture and there are certain tendencies that are more prevalent there. For examples, too many Americans are fat (like our Aussie cousins), we tend to be more religious than Europeans (yes that's stupid), and many of us do indeed talk a lot about MONEY. However, in a country as diverse and large as the US such statistical characteristics don't begin to tell the whole story.

ba bye

Edited August 5, 2009 by Jingthing

[Minke]

It's not too hard to gauge who your audience/conversation partner is and tailor the level of blunt/tact to that. It's called manners. Be aware of what the situation is; you don't have to stifle your point, but down cram it down someone's throat either. I tried to convey that with my first contribution to this thread.

For all: fit the scene, play along, be nice.

Translation for fellow Americans who subscribe to the raw deal in your face straight talk: Don't be an ass.

I am not an American apologist but I am not going to give fellow Americans slack for what their parents ought to have taught them in the first place: manners. Granted it is tedious listening to anti-American self-masturbatory ranting on the part of folks who haven't been out of their diapers long enough to know that not all Americans (or anyone born in a particular country for that matter) are the same, but it does not mean you have to reinforce their beliefs. Let them grow up on their own terms.

[Ijustwannateach]

This thread looks strangely like an attempt to circumvent rules in the guise of making a nationality-bashing session into a 'pub conversation...' I'll give it 24 hours to prove me otherwise, or then (or if it gets worse earlier) it will be closed.

[PeaceBlondie]

In using Thai Visa I agree:

1) To respect fellow members.

3) Not to post in a manner that is vulgar, obscene or profane .

4) Not to flame fellow members.

5) Not to post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling.

7) Not to post slurs or degrading comments directed towards any group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

[manu69manu]

So anyone here hate rabbits as much as I do. Hop Hop Hop Easter? I hope they all choke on their carrots. Is it not true that rabbits first came from America? Enough said!!!

In using Thai Visa I agree:

1) To respect fellow members.

3) Not to post in a manner that is vulgar, obscene or profane .

4) Not to flame fellow members.

5) Not to post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling.

7) Not to post slurs or degrading comments directed towards any group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

[huggybear]

From this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/-t285745.html&st=25

"hey i have heard that bitch of you is going to fleece you"(American style)

...

Not serious of course but Americans aren't known for their subtlety around the world

Didn't want to hijack the other thread, but I was just talking to my gf about this last night. I'm American, and I was telling her I have a hard time with my farang friends from other countries, because I never know what they think. I am a blunt American, if it comes into my head chances are I say it out loud, and I think I am constantly offending my more subtle friends from the continent. And because of their polite subtlety, they never tell me that I have offended them until they are drunk at 4am and they bring up the one time that I left the room without shaking everyone's hands, or the other time they told me dinner was at 8 and I showed up at 10 and demanded leftovers. In my mind good friends sort of bypass etiquette, etiquette is for strangers... My gf told me when I first met her she found me quite offensive as well until she got used to me. As in "I can't believe he just said that".

I guess I don't exactly have a question... This just came into my head and I had to say it.

tlock, I once was like you until:

My GF in America left me because she said the habit of just saying whatever came into my mind was juvenile. It's passible maybe at 15 years old but not at 30. Embarrassing for her and other people around who referred to me as their friend. That was 15 years ago.

I moved to Thailand and went to work for a company comprised of Europeans. Subtlety is not a strength of Americans, but you learn it. Understanding the underlying reality, although not expressed, strength of Europeans, not of Americans, but you learn it.

Not speaking but listening. We all can speak, but few are good listeners.

I'm curious as to your age.

[Minke]

So anyone here hate rabbits as much as I do. Hop Hop Hop Easter? I hope they all choke on their carrots. Is it not true that rabbits first came from America? Enough said!!!

Actually the earliest fossil records for lagomorphs (rabbit lineage) and the leporidae (hippity hop big back legs and big eared bunny family) are found in Asia. Additionally, they eat far more of their own poop than they do carrots. Rabbits are coprophagic which means they have to eat their own feces to extract necessary nutrients. So if they're going to choke, chances are it will be on their own you-know-what.

[rgs2001uk]

tlock,

thank God for people like you, talk turkey, none of this beating about the bush trying to get to the point for fear of offending anyone, product of the nanny pc state.

Personally I have all the time in the world for New Yorkers, tell it like it is, if you dont like it, no need to listen.

[losworld]

I don't think one can generalize. I've seen a lot of obnoxious people from all countries. However one criticism that can be leveled against Americans is that they are very inward looking. I remember growing up in Canada and our lead news stories would be either national or international. In the U.S. the breaking news was little league baseball. So this does lead to a certain degree of ignorance. However, there are many formally and self educated Americans but I find there seems to be a disparity in the education system. There is a top tier that is virtually unsurpassed than there are all the rest with substandard education (a lot like health care in the U.S). And in the U.S. this appears to be getting progressively worse as the middle class is shrinking and further disparity in income is creating two classes: rulers and serfs. Plus add in an influx of immigrants that don't really want to integrate. Many European countries are more balanced.

On a side note I have found the real Americans to be very generous and friendly people. The problem is all the immoral and greedy people that are allowed to take advantage of them.

I have pretty much had enough with my American experience and will soon be relocating to Thailand or back to Canada. Maybe see you in Bangers, Patts or Phuket for a brewski eh?

Edited August 9, 2009 by losworld

[Ulysses G.]

Dear friend. There are many myths about 'Americans'. Not all true. Not for all americans.

About 'things' coming into your mind,- check the things, before blurting out. If this doesn't help,- shut your mind. If you can't help blurting out whatever comes into your mind,- shut your mouth. Stop praising yourself for being open, direct, blunt sort of person. Maybe you are just unsophisticated? Or don't care about others' feelings? Or plain stupid?

No offence meant, but Europeans have had about 2000 years more to develop these things.

Personally, I never liked the 'American style'. About 3 years ago I visited USA for the first time. Now I know that my intuition was right. Too many of your countrymen are loud, obnoxious, uncouth, poorly educated and selfrighteous. Too many are overly 'friendly', with only intent,- to screw one for money. They put 'IN GOD WE TRUST' onto their currency notes, for lack of any moral or religious considerations. Maybe this is why they worship money?

I hate to generalise, or categorise people. I have many good american friends. They know my feelings and often share them.

So, my friend, have a long hard look at yourself...

With best intentions, Backsoon.

Keep on wankin!