My Wife Just Been Refused Uk Settlement Visa

[torment]

Hi I am a new member, I just joined today after i have had devestating news that my wife has been refused a uk settlement visa. We was married in April of 2009, and have known each other nearly 3 years, I have visited her 3 times in thailand, we contact each other every day on msn, and telephone.

I dont know what to do now, I miss her so much, she is my wife and we cannot be together!!! we are both 30 years of age and love each other very much, but my country is stopping my wife from being with me, If anyone can help me with what i should do next, please let me know, as right now my world is shattered, I have read that apealing will get me nowhere, and my best option is to wait 6 months and put in another aplication, I dont think I can wait another 6 months!!!!> Maybe I have to quit my job and sell my flat and go live in Thailand, problem is I have only had my flat 2 years, and i would have no money to survive on in thailand....... please someboddy help me.

[beano2274]

Hi I am a new member, I just joined today after i have had devestating news that my wife has been refused a uk settlement visa. We was married in April of 2009, and have known each other nearly 3 years, I have visited her 3 times in thailand, we contact each other every day on msn, and telephone.

I dont know what to do now, I miss her so much, she is my wife and we cannot be together!!! we are both 30 years of age and love each other very much, but my country is stopping my wife from being with me, If anyone can help me with what i should do next, please let me know, as right now my world is shattered, I have read that apealing will get me nowhere, and my best option is to wait 6 months and put in another aplication, I dont think I can wait another 6 months!!!!> Maybe I have to quit my job and sell my flat and go live in Thailand, problem is I have only had my flat 2 years, and i would have no money to survive on in thailand....... please someboddy help me.

Find out why she got refused, try and get those points addressed quickly.

Good luck with it, don't bother coming here as it's the same sh*t here where visas are concerned.

[Crossy]

You need to detail EXACTLY what the refusal notice says and address each point before re-applying.

I'll move this to visas to other countries where the experts live

[venturalaw]

Hi I am a new member, I just joined today after i have had devestating news that my wife has been refused a uk settlement visa. We was married in April of 2009, and have known each other nearly 3 years, I have visited her 3 times in thailand, we contact each other every day on msn, and telephone.

I dont know what to do now, I miss her so much, she is my wife and we cannot be together!!! we are both 30 years of age and love each other very much, but my country is stopping my wife from being with me, If anyone can help me with what i should do next, please let me know, as right now my world is shattered, I have read that apealing will get me nowhere, and my best option is to wait 6 months and put in another aplication, I dont think I can wait another 6 months!!!!> Maybe I have to quit my job and sell my flat and go live in Thailand, problem is I have only had my flat 2 years, and i would have no money to survive on in thailand....... please someboddy help me.

Did you use a barrister to represent you in the visa application process? Is there anything in your wife's background to which the UK would object? Perhaps your best route now is to retain counsel in order to file an appeal.

Good luck to you.

[kate46]

Hi Torment so sorry to hear about your wife's visa application...as far as i know you dont have to wait 6 months to put in another visa application (i think the 6 month is usually how long an appeal can take)

You need to post exactly what the refusal said so people on here can offer you advice

Post on the other thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Uk-Settlement-t250770.html I know Pingit was refused to begin with but was then able to send them more information and they reversed their decision, i am sure he will be on at some point and will give you advice Good luck

[Boo]

Please give s a brief description of what evidence you supplied & then provide the refusal reason as given to your wife. We are unable to advise properly without knowing that info.

[7by7]

I have read that apealing will get me nowhere, and my best option is to wait 6 months and put in another aplication

You have read wrong.

When your wife submits her appeal, the first thing that will happen is the Entry Clearance Manager will review the decision. If the ECM feels that the refusal was wrong, and you can submit new evidence to show this is so, then the refusal will be overturned. Otherwise the papers will be sent to the UK for an appeal hearing.

See Appeals

There is nothing to stop you from applying immediately, but unless you deal with the reasons for refusal she will only be refused again.

As Boo says, it is impossible to comment or advise further without knowing exactly what the refusal notice says.

[Mossfinn]

When your wife submits her appeal,

There is nothing to stop you from applying immediately,

Can't he do both simultaneously?

[7by7]

He can, and withdraw the appeal if the new application is successful; but I would advise waiting for the ECM's review before forking out for another application.

[theoldgit]

He can, and withdraw the appeal if the new application is successful; but I would advise waiting for the ECM's review before forking out for another application.

Absolutely right.

Torment, the clock has already started ticking for your wife's appeal so you need to post the full reasons for the refusal given by the ECO together with the details supplied in the application.

There is a good chance that, providing you can provide evidence that satisfies the concerns of the ECO, that the refusal could be overturned by the ECM before the appeal is formalised to the UK.

There are are a number of "lay experts" on this site who can and will offer support and advice, if the application is complicated you could contact a OISC registered advisor, you certainly don't need to instruct counsel, but the best advice will probably come from the many who have been through exactly the same as you, and are now happily in the UK.

Don't give up hope.

[torment]

Thanks to everyone for your replies, My wife was refused on two reasons,

1, they didnt think we had enough proof or our relationship between Oct'06- Oct'07, (We only have 1-email and 4-5 photos all texts, proof of phone calls have gone ) But i have lots of proof from Jan07- present day.

2, My wife has been in the UK before ilegally, she has also stated that she knew she was comming to the counrty ilegally but did so anyway, they have said she has shown disrespect for our imigration laws, we told them the complete truth and havent tried to hide anything, also my wife handed herself over to the authorities herself and she was not forced to leave, im hoping this helps.

Thanks again people, I will not give up until me and my wife are together. Looks like I will have to make an apeal and hire the relavent specialists. If anyone knows of a specialist who has done cases like this before, please pass on the details.

Many thanks.

[theoldgit]

Thanks to everyone for your replies, My wife was refused on two reasons,

1, they didnt think we had enough proof or our relationship between Oct'06- Oct'07, (We only have 1-email and 4-5 photos all texts, proof of phone calls have gone ) But i have lots of proof from Jan07- present day.

2, My wife has been in the UK before ilegally, she has also stated that she knew she was comming to the counrty ilegally but did so anyway, they have said she has shown disrespect for our imigration laws, we told them the complete truth and havent tried to hide anything, also my wife handed herself over to the authorities herself and she was not forced to leave, im hoping this helps.

If anyone knows of a specialist who has done cases like this before, please pass on the details.

I am sure you could build up more evidence of your relationship, but the illegal stay in the UK will cause her a problem you will need to convince the ECM that it's not a marriage of convenience, but though it's a hurdle she still might be able to overcome it, I have have sent you the contact details of a very able immigration advisor, I still don't think you need the expense of a barrister.

Was your wife an overstay or did she enter the country illegally, maybe with false documents, it looks like the ECO is seeking to punish her.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

If you pm me IL put you onto a level 2 adviser who deals in appeals.

[Electra]

Sounds like another Para 320 (11 ) refusal but without further facts it is not possible at this stage to venture an opinion as to whether or not it is well founded but I suspect it probably isn't.

It seems Bangkok UKBA visa section are chancing their arm in pursuing this line of attack which they probably think is a great wheeze to replace Para 320 (7)( c ) which of course cannot be used in spouse settlement applications.

Little buggers but in the eternal war of visa applications one just has to keep on peeling the onion.

The OP should submit his appeal and contact a decent OISC practitioner.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Electra

[mikemin]

Hi I am a new member, I just joined today after i have had devestating news that my wife has been refused a uk settlement visa. We was married in April of 2009, and have known each other nearly 3 years, I have visited her 3 times in thailand, we contact each other every day on msn, and telephone.

I dont know what to do now, I miss her so much, she is my wife and we cannot be together!!! we are both 30 years of age and love each other very much, but my country is stopping my wife from being with me, If anyone can help me with what i should do next, please let me know, as right now my world is shattered, I have read that apealing will get me nowhere, and my best option is to wait 6 months and put in another aplication, I dont think I can wait another 6 months!!!!> Maybe I have to quit my job and sell my flat and go live in Thailand, problem is I have only had my flat 2 years, and i would have no money to survive on in thailand....... please someboddy help me.

fear not my friend we all know what you are going through its horrible but you need to stop and think for a moment believe me iv been to hel_l and back with all this, appealing could help they have to have solid grounds to refuse an application we had it once but then went back to the embassy the next day to be given one but i feel that was an error on thier behalf. the agencies now in bangkok have been told to screen the visa applications before they get into the street at the embassy then if your application has a floor in it you will fail.

try another application and put your supporting letters in, go to a thai resteraunt in the uk and get a job offer for your wife in writing, show them that you can also support her with funding, ie bank statements (you dont need savings just earning money)show them photos of your house in the uk, give them proof of your earnings, and any bank statements, add her name to the electric, gas and phone accounts,poll tax, show them these when you recieve your next bills, no way can they refuse you its human rights we are allowed a family life and to live in peace with our partners, if I can be of any more help please get back in touch and relax

[Mossfinn]

Hi I am a new member, I just joined today after i have had devestating news that my wife has been refused a uk settlement visa. We was married in April of 2009, and have known each other nearly 3 years, I have visited her 3 times in thailand, we contact each other every day on msn, and telephone.

I dont know what to do now, I miss her so much, she is my wife and we cannot be together!!! we are both 30 years of age and love each other very much, but my country is stopping my wife from being with me, If anyone can help me with what i should do next, please let me know, as right now my world is shattered, I have read that apealing will get me nowhere, and my best option is to wait 6 months and put in another aplication, I dont think I can wait another 6 months!!!!> Maybe I have to quit my job and sell my flat and go live in Thailand, problem is I have only had my flat 2 years, and i would have no money to survive on in thailand....... please someboddy help me.

fear not my friend we all know what you are going through its horrible but you need to stop and think for a moment believe me iv been to hel_l and back with all this, appealing could help they have to have solid grounds to refuse an application we had it once but then went back to the embassy the next day to be given one but i feel that was an error on thier behalf. the agencies now in bangkok have been told to screen the visa applications before they get into the street at the embassy then if your application has a floor in it you will fail.

try another application and put your supporting letters in, go to a thai resteraunt in the uk and get a job offer for your wife in writing, show them that you can also support her with funding, ie bank statements (you dont need savings just earning money)show them photos of your house in the uk, give them proof of your earnings, and any bank statements, add her name to the electric, gas and phone accounts,poll tax, show them these when you recieve your next bills, no way can they refuse you its human rights we are allowed a family life and to live in peace with our partners, if I can be of any more help please get back in touch and relax

the agencies now in bangkok have been told to screen the visa applications before they get into the street at the embassy then if your application has a floor in it you will fail.

Depends on the Agencies, if they are the unregulated ones, they are there to prey on the misguided, if you mean the VAC, they are just a postal service and have no power to refuse an application.

no way can they refuse you its human rights we are allowed a family life and to live in peace with our partners

I wouldn't rely on Human Rights in this case.

[mikemin]

sorry all you misunderstood me, 5 years ago when we made our first application, the spouse could go in with her and sit at the interview, our application took just four days and she was in the uk. Now they have Thia staff in the lobby before you get in there, they then screen your paper work and your spouce isnt allowed in, your on your own. I didnt mean the agencies in the street whom i feel are a rip off because you can do your own paper work as we have allways done, no charges.

We got more problems over in the uk than in bangkok but thats another thousand stories, some of which are beyond belief however all is ok now. I wish you the best of luck and get that application striaght back in.

[Castor83]

Hello Torment,

It would seem you are in the same boat as me, or a boat of the same looks and dimensions anyway.

My girlfriend was rejected on the same grounds. ie section 320 (11) among others...

We are in the process of preparing the appeal right now and I have spoken to LOTS of solicitors and immigration practitioners. I would suggest the following.

First get your wife to scan and email the refusal notes. Read them several times to make sure you understand what exactly it is they have a problem with. Then email the Entry Clearance Manager

Gerrard Grant - gerry.grantefco.gov.uk

This is what I have done, I have asked him what the "aggravating circumstances" are for the use of 320(11)

Although I'm not holding my breath for a response.

The only other thing you can do is to get hold of lots of evidence of your relationship. I understand what you;re going through as it is very unclear what is acceptable evidence and also feels alot like noone would actually be able to prove they have a genuine relationship.

Here's what I've managed to rustle up so far:

Mobile phone bills - even though my contract ended, on bad terms I might add, with O2, i called them and explained the situation to them and they agreed to supply me with itemised telephone bills for that date. They charged me, but I think, due to data protection act or something, they are required to give it to you. TRACK DOWN those bills!

Also I printed out all the text message on my phone, luckily I never delete them, so I have two years worth, showing probably nearly a hundred from my girlfriend.

I got letter from all our friends saying that they had met us together many times, that we lived together and that in their opinion there was nothing to suggest we didnt have a genuine relationship (im not sure how credible these are in the eyes of an ECO, but its better than nothing)

I tracked every place I'd ever been to with my girlfriend and asked them all if they had any record of us. I only got one place - BJs bingo hall which would print me off our memebership details, and dates we had been there together. Plus i got the owner of the local bar and restaurant of which I am a regualr to write a letter for me saying we had both been in there countless times together and we had some photos of us which were taken in there, which he signed to say were us, and were taken in his restaurant.

I requested all my bank statements and my girlfriends in Thailand. (i send money to her by giving it to her friend in the UK, who sends it from her Thai bank, to my girlfriend's) and also got her friend to write a letter explaining this.

I also have a couple of other things like a top up credit card I got for my girlfriend when she was in the uk. the scans of our baby she posted to me, and some receipts for gifts I gave her when we were both over here.

And I'm waiting on a letter from my GP who I took my girlfriend to for an examination when we found out she was pregnant. Although I dunno if he will be willing to write a letter for me.

Of course, who knows if all of this is acceptable to those immigration folks, but as the solicitors have told me, "it can't hurt!"

So my advice would be: Chin up, get detective. Think hard about anything at all which links the two of you together and get it. Talk to a solicitor or an immigration practitioner. Old Git i think has pmed you a link to good one. I haven't used these because I wanted someone local for face to face meetings and I got a very good recommendation from a couple of friends of my girlfriend who have been in quite similar circumstances.

As for whether to appeal or to just apply again, from what I have read and heard it is kind of a push! I mean if you appeal you don't have to pay again, but you may well be waiting a long time. Who knows how an immigration official's mind works though. So i have decided to lodge the appeal, mainly because I believe that although I didn't provide enough evidence to convince them - this is in fact an incorrect decision on their part. Hopefully in light of the new evidence, they will overturn the decision...

Good luck to you and your wife!

If you have any questions feel free to pm me because it seems I am about a week ahead of you in the same situation

[wordchild]

lots of good advice here, and unfortunatly the immigration rules have been made a lot tougher around these sort of issues.It may not be relevant but worth making sure she has been completly open about her full immigration history (incl with you) before you appeal, eg arrival and departure dates ,any other passports used ,issues/refusals from any other countries. you dont want to be blown out of the water by new facts emerging during the appeal process. assume the embassy know everything .It should not happen but the Thai immigration authorities willingly share (with the uk) data on their citizens travel history and its much more detailed than the Uk would have eg they have always kept arrival and departure records and importantly linked flight number records.

[dangersnake]

Hi I am a new member, I just joined today after i have had devestating news that my wife has been refused a uk settlement visa. We was married in April of 2009, and have known each other nearly 3 years, I have visited her 3 times in thailand, we contact each other every day on msn, and telephone.

I dont know what to do now, I miss her so much, she is my wife and we cannot be together!!! we are both 30 years of age and love each other very much, but my country is stopping my wife from being with me, If anyone can help me with what i should do next, please let me know, as right now my world is shattered, I have read that apealing will get me nowhere, and my best option is to wait 6 months and put in another aplication, I dont think I can wait another 6 months!!!!> Maybe I have to quit my job and sell my flat and go live in Thailand, problem is I have only had my flat 2 years, and i would have no money to survive on in thailand....... please someboddy help me.

[dangersnake]

Hi I am a new member, I just joined today after i have had devestating news that my wife has been refused a uk settlement visa. We was married in April of 2009, and have known each other nearly 3 years, I have visited her 3 times in thailand, we contact each other every day on msn, and telephone.

I dont know what to do now, I miss her so much, she is my wife and we cannot be together!!! we are both 30 years of age and love each other very much, but my country is stopping my wife from being with me, If anyone can help me with what i should do next, please let me know, as right now my world is shattered, I have read that apealing will get me nowhere, and my best option is to wait 6 months and put in another aplication, I dont think I can wait another 6 months!!!!> Maybe I have to quit my job and sell my flat and go live in Thailand, problem is I have only had my flat 2 years, and i would have no money to survive on in thailand....... please someboddy help me.

I suggest you to go in see the visa2britain office, beach road soi 13/13 close to satarbucks..they would give you a free good advice...my friend girlfriend she just secure the visa to go to Uk..that's why i suggest you that company..

[Mossfinn]

I suggest you to go in see the visa2britain office, beach road soi 13/13 close to satarbucks..they would give you a free good advice...my friend girlfriend she just secure the visa to go to Uk..that's why i suggest you that company..

Are they OISC registered?

[pingit]

Hi there Torment .

I have read thru your post and I am sorry to hear about this for you. Like Kate said I was in the same situation as you and castor and with lots of work and patience, got Gerry Grant to overturn the decision. Only I didn't have the illegal entry involved. However I think Im right in thinking that this rule shouldn't apply when its a spouse settlement visa?? someone correct me if Im wrong on that, but I think it is the case.

If it is, then I think castor covered lots of great points in his message of what to do. You really have to become a P.I and prove your case. Get loads of documents that proves BEYOND any doubt your relationship. I went to speak to my MP and he wrote a letter for us too, although I never got any idea of if this helped us or not, I think its good to cover ALL bases.

Just stay calm and once you have all your new evidence together, write a proffesional type letter only talking about the facts of the matter, no emotional stuff. I wrote my letter very factual like a lawyer would. Fax and email everything directly to Gerrard Grant, with your APET number on every page. I did that and then sent the hard copies to Bangkok DHL from UK. It might also be an idea to get your good lady to also get evidence of your relationship from HER friends and collegues. If both of you fax and email info to Gerry Grant, it is another angle to show your both together in this.

Once you have done what you need to, dont let this go cold. If you send them info follow it up maybe a few days later with a call.

As for whether or not to appeal, well... I tried to just go the informal way of neither. A letter from me , lots of new evidence to Gerrard Grant and trying to get him to overturn it. After about 3 weeks of sending and faxing things to him, I got a message from him saying to get Miss Pingit to fill in the appeal form and fax it ASAP. It wasn't what I wanted to hear really, however, the next day he overturned the visa. I did speak with him, and he said that I could send him all the evidence in the world, but without the appeal form he cant overturn anything. so... my advice would be to get all this evidence that you can possibly think of and fax email and send it to him, and also fill in the appeal form and send it. If your case is rock solid then Im sure it will be overturned locally in Bangkok fairly quickly. To give you a time scale , it took me 6 weeks to get this overturned. It will only be a lengthy process if you CAN'T convince Gerrard Grant in Bangkok. He is the man you need to appeal to. If he's still not happy then it gets sent to a tribunual in the UK and takes ages. IF that where to happen to me, I was going to cancel the appeal, and do a new rock solid application at that point. It would be faster.

If I can help in anyway please let me know, I totally know this is a nightmare having gone thru it only a month and a half ago.

ALL THE BEST MATE !! Always look UP

[Eff1n2ret]

First get your wife to scan and email the refusal notes. Read them several times to make sure you understand what exactly it is they have a problem with. Then email the Entry Clearance Manager

Gerrard Grant - gerry.grantefco.gov.uk

This is what I have done, I have asked him what the "aggravating circumstances" are for the use of 320(11)

Although I'm not holding my breath for a response.

Castor, you are right to put the ECM on the spot about this, and it would be most interesting to learn his response, if you're able to post it.

You ought to get a response, but if he doesn't come back within a couple of weeks email him again and politely point out that his inability to clarify this matter will be brought to the notice of the immigration judge at the appeal.

[monkfish]

Torment sorry to here the bad news and wish you very good luck.

Even if your wife has been on overstay it is surely a human rights violation to keep a family apart.

[dean999]

Hi all,

I know my situation is not completly the same but i was hoping for some advice.

I not to sure of the next step. My wifes settlement visa was refused.

I have attached the letter.

The bit they wrote at the end made me laugh.

[Eff1n2ret]

Hi all,

I know my situation is not completly the same but i was hoping for some advice.

I not to sure of the next step. My wifes settlement visa was refused.

I have attached the letter.

The bit they wrote at the end made me laugh.

Are you now shore-based in the UK? The ideal for you would be another posting abroad where you could take her, and after spending 6 months or a year together there couldn't be any argument about the closeness of your relationship.

The first point in the refusal letter is the failure to produce a document, i.e. her divorce certificate, and if this was the only objection you could easily overcome it by producing it and asking for a reconsideration without even going to appeal.

Unfortunately, she's also given the impression that she doesn't know you very well, so they doubt her motives for coming to the UK. This may be a case where only time and another application later on will produce a result. I can't advise you to appeal, but there may be others who have successfully done so in similar circumstances who can comment.

The reference to Article 8 of the Human Rights Convention is pretty much standard, because although Art 8 confers a right to family life, it doesn't confer a right to exercise it in any particular country. You may get a legal expert to construct an argument that because of your chosen profession there are limits to the places where you can exercise your rights, but I wouldn't hold out much hope. In any case, if you're doing tours of duty at sea and only able to see your wife on leave, it's easy to argue that you could spend your leave with her in Thailand.

[7by7]

It seems that they are basing the refusal on her failure to produce her divorce certificate, and the vagueness of her answers when asked about you.

I imagine that the main reason is the missing divorce certificate, as they cannot issue her a visa as your wife unless they have evidence that she is no longer married to her previous husband, and so this marriage is not bigamous.

I suggest that you/she submits the appeal form PDQ, include with it a letter explaining the vagueness of her answers (pressure/nerves etc.) and the missing divorce certificate.

I see from your posts in another thread that the VAC told her not so submit the divorce certificate. Are you absolutely, 100% sure about that? If so, then put this in the letter as well.

You also say in that other thread that you are looking for an agent in Pattaya to help. There is only one OISC registered adviser in Pattaya, Thai Visa Express, and unfortunately he does not deal with appeals. To be competent to deal with appeals one needs to be at least a level 2 OISC adviser.

Do not use an adviser unless they are at least a level 2 OISC registered adviser. To the best of my knowledge, there are none in Thailand.

[nigelandjan]

Thanks to everyone for your replies, My wife was refused on two reasons,

1, they didnt think we had enough proof or our relationship between Oct'06- Oct'07, (We only have 1-email and 4-5 photos all texts, proof of phone calls have gone ) But i have lots of proof from Jan07- present day.

2, My wife has been in the UK before ilegally, she has also stated that she knew she was comming to the counrty ilegally but did so anyway, they have said she has shown disrespect for our imigration laws, we told them the complete truth and havent tried to hide anything, also my wife handed herself over to the authorities herself and she was not forced to leave, im hoping this helps.

Thanks again people, I will not give up until me and my wife are together. Looks like I will have to make an apeal and hire the relavent specialists. If anyone knows of a specialist who has done cases like this before, please pass on the details.

Many thanks.

Before I scrolled down to read the contents of this post I just had a little side bet with my ( Thai ) wife as to the reason that the refusal was made ,,,,,,,,and guess what ,,,,, yep BINGO,,,,,,WHY OH WHY so many people think somehow they can buck the system and shortcircuit what the rest of us have to go thro to do it properly. Even when the original post was made you the OP could not even face the truth and stick all the facts up. If you had done things properly in the frist place you would be together now.

[yeesipha]

Thanks to everyone for your replies, My wife was refused on two reasons,

1, they didnt think we had enough proof or our relationship between Oct'06- Oct'07, (We only have 1-email and 4-5 photos all texts, proof of phone calls have gone ) But i have lots of proof from Jan07- present day.

2, My wife has been in the UK before ilegally, she has also stated that she knew she was comming to the counrty ilegally but did so anyway, they have said she has shown disrespect for our imigration laws, we told them the complete truth and havent tried to hide anything, also my wife handed herself over to the authorities herself and she was not forced to leave, im hoping this helps.

Thanks again people, I will not give up until me and my wife are together. Looks like I will have to make an apeal and hire the relavent specialists. If anyone knows of a specialist who has done cases like this before, please pass on the details.

Many thanks.

Before I scrolled down to read the contents of this post I just had a little side bet with my ( Thai ) wife as to the reason that the refusal was made ,,,,,,,,and guess what ,,,,, yep BINGO,,,,,,WHY OH WHY so many people think somehow they can buck the system and shortcircuit what the rest of us have to go thro to do it properly. Even when the original post was made you the OP could not even face the truth and stick all the facts up. If you had done things properly in the frist place you would be together now.

OH yer thats afat lot of help to the guy,if your going to post try something positive,this guy is looking for advice not critisism.