Is Thailand As Promiscuous As A Country Can Be.

[MrHammer]

Most research shows that HIV does not transfer easily from heterosexual sex. In fact I think your numbers are low. There was a study made in the Phillipines with many thousand Philipine prostitutes and American soldiers over a 10 year period. Less than 1 percent of the prostitutes got HIV, on the other hand Clamydia was common among them and the American soldiers, which suggests condoms were not used.

So why are prostitutes in Thailand more HIV prone than their sisters in the Phillipines? It probably comes down to two things: Drug use and bi-sexual males spreading the disease, two things of which Thailand has plenty.

[cdnvic]

While there may be merit in some of these statements, let's be careful not to scapegoat anyone without solid evidence to back it up.

[Jingthing]

Most research shows that HIV does not transfer easily from heterosexual sex.

That is very misleading. Of course in the US the disease impacted MSM (men sex with men) more than in the third world, particularly Africa. People who insist HIV is a gay disease are just plain WRONG.

From the US Center for Disease Control.

HRHC

High Risk HETEROSEXUAL sex

In the US:

Males

HRHC accounted for 13% (104,000) of men living with HIV.

Females

HRHC accounted for 72% (201,700) of women living with HIV.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Jingthing

[MrHammer]

Most research shows that HIV does not transfer easily from heterosexual sex.

That is very misleading. From the US Center for Disease Control. Of course in the US the disease impacted MSM (men sex with men) more than in the third world, particularly Africa. People who insist HIV is a gay disease are just plain WRONG.

HRHS

High Risk HETEROSEXUAL sex

In the US:

Males

HRHC accounted for 13% (104,000) of men living with HIV.

Females

HRHC accounted for 72% (201,700) of women living with HIV.

Look, I don't want to get into a straight vs gay thing here, but the facts are clear:

"..According to the report, 53 percent of new HIV infections occur in homosexual or bisexual men. African-Americans account for 45 percent, or 25,000 new cases annually, meaning they are seven times more likely to contract HIV than whites.."

Since there's only about 3-5% gay/bi males in the US, that makes gys/bi enormously overrepresented in the statistics.

Let's not bullshit around anymore. The majority of HIV worldwide is from drug use and homosexual sex and from bisexual males who spread the disease to their wives. If we focused our efforts on educating those groups instead of college students, then we could actually accomplish something.

[Jingthing]

Let's not bullshit around anymore. The majority of HIV worldwide is from drug use and homosexual sex

That is 100 percent FALSE. The numbers in Africa alone, the biggest hit region, are OVERWHELMINGLY heterosexual cases. You don't want to scapegoat gays? You could have fooled me.

From low income Africa which is perhaps similar to low income Thailand, this is interesting:

Nonetheless, they point out that the figures from low-income settings suggest that there is a greater risk of transmission from women to men than the other way round, which is the inverse of the high-income country findings and is generally considered less biologically plausible.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Factors+infl...ca.-a0204419738

Edited August 22, 2009 by Jingthing

[Heng]

Most research shows that HIV does not transfer easily from heterosexual sex.

This is again the foreign mindset unable to adapt to the local environment.

Perhaps in an environment where people have sexual intercourse 10-20 times a year with maybe 5-10 partners per lifetime. Here for many folks it's 200+ times per year with 90+ partners per year. Russian roulette played once vs. everyday for the rest of your life.

[Theyreallrubbish]

OK this has nothing to do with the sex industry in LOS.

If i were to have unprotected sex with a HIV infected female the chances of me actually catching it are something like 1 in 300,

Last month my wife's nephew was cremated after dying from AIDS, it took about 18 months from whorehouse to ashes. He made claim to only one visit to the local whorehouse. He also infected his wife who has been bed ridden for many months and isn't expected to live much longer. They have three children. I guess some people don't believe in statistics.

I guess some people don't understand statistics. If you knew someone who had died in a plane crash it wouldn't alter the statistical odds of a plane crashing.

In a large sample size then outliers occur. With 15,000 new infections a year (assuming for the sake of argument all are men) if the number of men who visit a prostitute for the first time in that year is 1 in 15 (the other 14 have been to a prostitute before) and the odds of catching HIV from a single encounter is 1 in 100, then you would expect 10 men a year to catch HIV from their first encounter with a prostitute.

For the individual ten men and their families and the people that know them it would seem a horrendous stroke of bad luck and that HIV is far more infectious than the media reports, but it is a statistical inevitability that those ten men exist based on the probabilities.

Now you probably know or talk with about 200 people in a year. They do the same so just through your first and second degree contacts, that's a pool of 40,000 people. Which is about .67% of the Thai population. So again, statistically every one in 300 people knows directly or knows someone who caught HIV from their first visit to a prostitute.

There are, let's say 6000 registered users of Thai Visa, so there should be at least another 19 people who can tell the same story you have, without this being an at risk group or the statistics of catching the disease in any way false.

(Note, I have rounded and approximated to make it easy to follow, not to be accurate. I am simply trying to illustrate that in a sample size, what is unlikely can also appear common. In fact by being unlikely it is more likely to be noted and thus discussed. The odds of a sock going missing from the laundry are much higher, but your awareness of people in your contact group's sock losses is probably low)

Back to the topic of promiscuity, I'm old enough to have seen a change in the behaviour of the current generation of young women, yet young enough (just) that these women still regard me as potential boyfriend/husband/baby father material, and I have noticed a change in the sexual behaviour of the current cohort of Thai women in their 20s. My last 3 GFs all claimed I was the first or second foreigner and that they had only been with a single Thai man. So not particularly promiscuous. They were all in their very early 20s and reasonably well educated in 2 cases, one was very well educated, two came from very strict traditional families. And all three of them didn't want me to use a condom.

Very different to the behaviour of women of the same age group 10-15 years ago, who were very keen on condom useage.

It seems the fear of HIV has greatly diminished for the generation of women beginning sexual activity over the last few years, and like other posters I blame it on a reduction in education efforts.

[zorro1]

From what I've read, HIV has been highest in the gay community and the needle drug abusers group. Most of the infected Thai prostitutes were in the northern brothels used by the army. Most of the Thai women I've known insisted on condoms. The ones that didn't were not active in the trade or I was their steady boyfriend. I use them because at my age I don't want to start another family. I've had some pretty frank discussions with lots of women in the trade.

very true. How many people here actually know someone ( not hear say) that is hetro doesn't do anal sex and is HIV positive. I have friends all over the world and many here that have never used a condom and they dont know anyone either. When a regular thai becomes my g/f no condoms either. Also many if not all of us have had condom break due to low quality rubbers available here ( nothing to do with my size 13 feet ) but seriously its nearly impossible to catch through normal hetro sexual activity. Condoms must be used more so for herpes and warts etc

[Jingthing]

but seriously its nearly impossible to catch through normal hetro sexual activity.

A completely false statement. I thought this kind of ignorance about hetero transmission was over. Amazing.

[MrHammer]

Most research shows that HIV does not transfer easily from heterosexual sex.

This is again the foreign mindset unable to adapt to the local environment.

Perhaps in an environment where people have sexual intercourse 10-20 times a year with maybe 5-10 partners per lifetime. Here for many folks it's 200+ times per year with 90+ partners per year. Russian roulette played once vs. everyday for the rest of your life.

I don't know which circles you know where couples only have sex 10-20 times a year. 5-10 partners may seem reasonable for most people who subscribe to the monogamy theory.

I'm fairly sure most Thai guys don't score 90 different girls a year, thats numbers that would make any pimp proud. In fact it sounds completely unrealistic. Maybe you could go out and meet and have sex with 8 girls a month if you really put some effort into it, but how do you deal with the phone calls, scheduling, jealousy fits etc.

Unless you mean Thai guys have sex with 8 prostitutes a month? I suspect you do. In that case you get what you deserve.

[Jingthing]

NOBODY deserves HIV. Educate yourselves about transmission, and yes that means YOU heterosexuals, and use protection.

BTW, promiscuity doesn't spread HIV, unsafe practices do. Of course abstinent people are the safest but that's not for everyone.

People can learn from survivors like me, who lived through the 80s in San Francisco and did not get infected, assume EVERYONE including yourself is potentially infected. No matter what they say, no matter how healthy they look. You are responsible to protect yourself and those you love as well.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Jingthing

[cdnvic]

but seriously its nearly impossible to catch through normal hetro sexual activity.

A completely false statement. I thought this kind of ignorance about hetero transmission was over. Amazing.

False, and dangerous.

[MrHammer]

but seriously its nearly impossible to catch through normal hetro sexual activity.

A completely false statement. I thought this kind of ignorance about hetero transmission was over. Amazing.

The ignorance is entirely on your side. All research point to that unless there are other factors like drug use, open sore (from other STD's), then it's almost impossible for a male to get HIV from a female. Females are at greater risk, but still low.

[Heng]

Most research shows that HIV does not transfer easily from heterosexual sex.

This is again the foreign mindset unable to adapt to the local environment.

Perhaps in an environment where people have sexual intercourse 10-20 times a year with maybe 5-10 partners per lifetime. Here for many folks it's 200+ times per year with 90+ partners per year. Russian roulette played once vs. everyday for the rest of your life.

I don't know which circles you know where couples only have sex 10-20 times a year. 5-10 partners may seem reasonable for most people who subscribe to the monogamy theory.

I'm fairly sure most Thai guys don't score 90 different girls a year, thats numbers that would make any pimp proud. In fact it sounds completely unrealistic. Maybe you could go out and meet and have sex with 8 girls a month if you really put some effort into it, but how do you deal with the phone calls, scheduling, jealousy fits etc.

Unless you mean Thai guys have sex with 8 prostitutes a month? I suspect you do. In that case you get what you deserve.

Whatever one deserves is irrelevant, I'm talking about basic probability and the inability of some folks to realize that statistics in one sample may be completely irrelevant in another sample set.

[zorro1]

but seriously its nearly impossible to catch through normal hetro sexual activity.

A completely false statement. I thought this kind of ignorance about hetero transmission was over. Amazing.

False, and dangerous.

okay I have no problems with getting it wrong, none what so ever. but I still dont know anyone I know or that they know that have attended a mates or girlfriends funeral that was totally straight. I do understand its rampant in the gay community through no other reason than the mechanics of the transaction hence women are more at risk if they have a bi sexual lover and are into Anal sex where the chance of skin tearing is very high.

Edited August 22, 2009 by zorro1

[MrHammer]

Most research shows that HIV does not transfer easily from heterosexual sex.

This is again the foreign mindset unable to adapt to the local environment.

Perhaps in an environment where people have sexual intercourse 10-20 times a year with maybe 5-10 partners per lifetime. Here for many folks it's 200+ times per year with 90+ partners per year. Russian roulette played once vs. everyday for the rest of your life.

I don't know which circles you know where couples only have sex 10-20 times a year. 5-10 partners may seem reasonable for most people who subscribe to the monogamy theory.

I'm fairly sure most Thai guys don't score 90 different girls a year, thats numbers that would make any pimp proud. In fact it sounds completely unrealistic. Maybe you could go out and meet and have sex with 8 girls a month if you really put some effort into it, but how do you deal with the phone calls, scheduling, jealousy fits etc.

Unless you mean Thai guys have sex with 8 prostitutes a month? I suspect you do. In that case you get what you deserve.

Whatever one deserves is irrelevant, I'm talking about basic probability and the inability of some folks to realize that statistics in one sample may be completely irrelevant in another sample set.

Ok, I get what your saying. If you're a whoremonger who doesnt believe in condoms then you risk HIV. No surprise there.

[Heng]

but seriously its nearly impossible to catch through normal hetro sexual activity.

A completely false statement. I thought this kind of ignorance about hetero transmission was over. Amazing.

open sore (from other STD's)

That's likely one of the major local vectors as well. Even in societies where there are fewer prostitutes per capita, HPV and HSV are extremely common. Here it's multiplied. That increases your risk all down the heterosexual range, and the gals don't stop working/the guys don't stop going to massage parlours when they have outbreaks, nevermind those that are asymptomatic. Goodness knows our pharmacies have the acyclovir sales to prove it.

[Heng]

Ok, I get what your saying. If you're a whoremonger who doesnt believe in condoms then you risk HIV. No surprise there.

No kidding, if you're talking about safe sex then what's your point?

Or how about unsafe sex with an 18 year old gal whose only other partner is a monger (through much lower barriers to entry/access than other countries). Or whatever possible combination through a few degrees of separation.

It'd be an inaccurate mindset to think your odds are identical when your partner in such a case may have been exposed to hundreds of other bodies through one contact as opposed to a society where her only other partner likely has had only a handful of/if any partners himself.

All the same. No surprise there.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Heng

[snuggzzz]

Man, I so hate threads like this. Promiscuity has nothing to do with the increasing HIV rates in Thailand. The growth is due to some of the following factors;

1. Young population. (The under 21 year old generation did not have the same education as did the population in the 1990s. The prevention proogram was everywhere 15 years ago. They also haven't seen the horrors of what HIV can do and have been lulled into complacency by the take a pill and you'll be ok fallacy.)

2. Increasing population of IV drug users, particularly in the Bumese border areas.

3. Reduction of medical outreach programs precluding early diagnosis thereby allowing unknowing HIV+ people to infect others.

4. An absence of community activists, particularly in the hardest hit communities. In the west, it was social community groups that pushed the message. Gone are the days when Mr. Condom could walk around handing out goodies. The prudes of Bangkok didn't want to see that again.

If you think Thais are more promiscuous than elsewhere, please get out more. According to surveys it appears that Canada is the world's hotspot of sex. (No I didn't make that up.) The Russians make Pattaya's night crawlers seem tame in comparison and on and on it goes.

Thailand has a crisis with HIV now because the previous governments over the past 5 years cut funding for prevention and education as soon as the cases started to drop. Cuts seem to have accelerated as soon as the military took over.

Grow up.................!!!!

[MrHammer]

Ok, I get what your saying. If you're a whoremonger who doesnt believe in condoms then you risk HIV. No surprise there.

(through much lower barriers to entry/access than other countries)

Even if love for money was cheaper in the west it would never reach the levels in Thailand and the rest of Asia. Christian morals and feminist idieology makes it that way. Ok, enough of this, wrap it up if you get around, thats the conclusion.

[Heng]

Christian morals and feminist idieology makes it that way.

If anything, it'd be worse. Male behavior would be about the same, but I think you'd see a lot more establishments that cater to women.

But to each his own beliefs.

[dondraper]

Most research shows that HIV does not transfer easily from heterosexual sex.

Yes, I am quite familiar with the Nana Plaza Bar Stool Research Institution

[dondraper]

My last 3 GFs all claimed I was the first or second foreigner and that they had only been with a single Thai man. So not particularly promiscuous. They were all in their very early 20s and reasonably well educated in 2 cases, one was very well educated, two came from very strict traditional families. And all three of them didn't want me to use a condom.

Very different to the behaviour of women of the same age group 10-15 years ago, who were very keen on condom useage.

It seems the fear of HIV has greatly diminished for the generation of women beginning sexual activity over the last few years, and like other posters I blame it on a reduction in education efforts.

My experiences are the same except I think the girls are lying about you being their first or their lack of previous partners. I have met very few girls here who do not fall into the following categories:

I am a virgin

I had a bf a very very long time ago when I was a child (Which is funny when the girl is like 26 years old)

What I observe from Thais that live near me and just general experiences and overall body language and everyday going out into Thai society is that young Thai people are fuc_king like bunnies right now.

"I am a virgin."

"Kool. Do you know the reverse cowgirl position?"

"Here let me try. Wow, I can do it touching my ankles at the same time"

[bunuel]

As an alumnus of the Sir Richard Francis Burton school of cultural research, I can only say that the author's expertise in the field of promiscuity is very limited. Clearly he has not been to Brazil or central or southern Africa, for example. And equating promiscuity with higher rates of disease is just plain wrong, as relatively low HIV rates in Scandinavia clearly prove. Public health policy ( or the lack of one) is the key variable, and safe sex, rather then abstinence, is cure!

Man, I so hate threads like this. Promiscuity has nothing to do with the increasing HIV rates in Thailand. The growth is due to some of the following factors;

1. Young population. (The under 21 year old generation did not have the same education as did the population in the 1990s. The prevention proogram was everywhere 15 years ago. They also haven't seen the horrors of what HIV can do and have been lulled into complacency by the take a pill and you'll be ok fallacy.)

2. Increasing population of IV drug users, particularly in the Bumese border areas.

3. Reduction of medical outreach programs precluding early diagnosis thereby allowing unknowing HIV+ people to infect others.

4. An absence of community activists, particularly in the hardest hit communities. In the west, it was social community groups that pushed the message. Gone are the days when Mr. Condom could walk around handing out goodies. The prudes of Bangkok didn't want to see that again.

If you think Thais are more promiscuous than elsewhere, please get out more. According to surveys it appears that Canada is the world's hotspot of sex. (No I didn't make that up.) The Russians make Pattaya's night crawlers seem tame in comparison and on and on it goes.

Thailand has a crisis with HIV now because the previous governments over the past 5 years cut funding for prevention and education as soon as the cases started to drop. Cuts seem to have accelerated as soon as the military took over.

[LaoPo]

Last month my wife's nephew was cremated after dying from AIDS, it took about 18 months from whorehouse to ashes. He made claim to only one visit to the local whorehouse. He also infected his wife who has been bed ridden for many months and isn't expected to live much longer. They have three children. I guess some people don't believe in statistics.

My sincerest condolences !

It's extremely sad to have to notice that a thread like this attracts more attention (maybe the word: Promiscuous ?) rather than a more serious warning-thread, posted on August 11 of this month about the HIV/AIDS risks:

50 Million Women In Asia At Risk Of Hiv Infection,

"because...risky sexual behavior of husbands or boyfriends"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/50-Million-W...I-t288147.htmlt

some 610,000 people (2007) with HIV/AIDS and 30,000 deaths so far in Thailand isn't enough to make people wake up ?

" note: estimates for this country explicitly take into account the effects of excess mortality due to AIDS; this can result in lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality, higher death rates, lower population growth rates, and changes in the distribution of population by age and sex than would otherwise be expected (July 2009 est.)"

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...ok/geos/th.html

LaoPo

[dumbnewbie]

"I am a virgin."

"Kool. Do you know the reverse cowgirl position?"

"Here let me try. Wow, I can do it touching my ankles at the same time"

[Ijustwannateach]

In my experience, the gay population here is very active. Furthermore, there is a shocking lack of knowledge or care about condoms among younger Thai gay men who are not involved with the tourist sex industry- all the more shocking because they would theoretically be one of the highest risk groups. That being the case, the chance that lower risk groups know about this important information is that much smaller.

In my not-terribly-scientific experience, there is also an age divide. Thais over 25 seem to know much more about safer sex- not surprisingly, since they caught the end of the previously very effective public campaigns to raise public awareness of HIV risks and safer sex. It is a dark reminder of how successful those campaigns were- how ignorant so many of the younger people are now that they are no longer funded.

I don't care that much about 1 to 300, 1 to 150, or 1 to 50- those odds are all too great a risk to life. Safer sex or no sex.

[oldsparrow]

In my experience, the gay population here is very active. Furthermore, there is a shocking lack of knowledge or care about condoms among younger Thai gay men who are not involved with the tourist sex industry- all the more shocking because they would theoretically be one of the highest risk groups. That being the case, the chance that lower risk groups know about this important information is that much smaller. In my not-terribly-scientific experience, there is also an age divide. Thais over 25 seem to know much more about safer sex- not surprisingly, since they caught the end of the previously very effective public campaigns to raise public awareness of HIV risks and safer sex. It is a dark reminder of how successful those campaigns were- how ignorant so many of the younger people are now that they are no longer funded. I don't care that much about 1 to 300, 1 to 150, or 1 to 50- those odds are all too great a risk to life. Safer sex or no sex.

Yes in the late 80s -early 90s there had been a lot of anti HIV infection campaigns on TV on the buses etc. The safe sex campaigner like Khun Meechai was frequently mentioned in public arena.

[Travel2003]

But is this the reason that HIV rates in Thailand are so high, in that both males and females are far more promiscuous here then in nations with lower HIV/Aids rates?

Guess I will receive heat for this, but I remember reading about if Thais are promiscuous or not.

I read it in an article in Bangkok Post actually, and a few books, where these data were shown.

Just read a fact sheet about Thailan on the WHO site.

Quote"

Evidence corroborates the early

initiation of sexual activity among

young men and women in Thailand.

Recent data from the National

Behavioural Surveillance (2004)

among 2nd year secondary school

students indicates that the average

age of first sex among sexually

active 8th grade students was

13 years for both boys and girls

(Figure-4). National data from 1996

to 2004 surveys shows a significant

rise in the proportion of secondary

school students who are sexually

active (trends for both male and

female students of 5th year of

secondary school are shown in

Figures-5 and 6).

end of Quote"

Coming from a country which is known as "sexually liberal", this is very surprising numbers.

So I guess, promiscous? Yes.

If this causes the HIV/AIDS rates? Not sure about that, as I believe there are other groups that are affected by this virus.

[LaoPo]

If this causes the HIV/AIDS rates? Not sure about that, as I believe there are other groups that are affected by this virus.

"More than 90 percent of the 1.7 million women now living with HIV in Asia became infected while being in monogamous, long-term relationships with men who engaged in risky sex behavior, the report launched by UNAIDS said."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/50-Million-W...-I-t288147.html

Although gay men/women have a "bad" name if it comes to unprotected sex I think that a far larger group of heterosexual people are responsible for the largest part of the HIV/AIDS infected people in Thailand (now 610,000 versus 30,000 deaths), especially BECAUSE of the irresponsible hebaviour of (mainly) men who have unprotected sex outside their marriages/relationships.

Why I think so?

because heterosexual people outnumber the gay population by far and the commonly accepted behaviour of having sexual affairs outside marriage/relationship, the mia noi phenomenon and the enormous sex industry.

LaoPo