Tat Refuse Gay Travel Agent License

[wowpow]

Thailand's government has shown signs that homosexual visitors are offensive to Thai culture and wishes to discourage gay visitors to the Land of Smiles.

A committee of the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT), the country's national tourist office and a government ministry, has suspended the operating license of Utopia Tours, an openly gay Bangkok business that is widely considered the oldest and most respected tour company serving the gay and lesbian market. From its headquarters in Bangkok, Utopia Tours maintains a staff of as nearly 100 people in seven countries.

In March 2004 an anonymous complaint alleging Utopia Tours' involvement in sex tourism prompted Thai authorities to raid both of the company's Bangkok offices. Some allegedly-pornographic materials were found during a subsequent raid of the home of one of the company's directors.

TAT also investigated Utopia Tours' extensive website. Mr. Apiwat Tubtimto, a TAT investigator, admitted that there was no direct evidence that Utopia had coordinated sex tourism for its clientele or even that it advertised that it was willing to do so. "There was nothing illegal on the site," said Apiwat "but they are inviting gays and lesbians to Thailand and that is immoral and inappropriate." It is believed that this is the first time that an official agency of the Thai government has declared that homosexuals are undesirable and unwelcome.

The management of Utopia Tours are convinced that the TAT took this drastic action purely because the company openly focuses on the gay market. "Official homophobia is nothing new," said Douglas Thompson, the company's managing director. "We expect that from governments like Somalia and El Salvador. However, Thailand is a place where our community loves to spend its money. A lot of money. To take money from people like us and then to call us evil is reprehensible." According to Thompson, the company was founded in 1998 and has met for the past four years with TAT officials regarding promotion to the gay market.

"We have been scrupulously clean since we started this business seven years ago," Thompson said. "Our emphasis has always been on quality, service and our respect for the diverse cultures of the places where we work. We don't need to sell sex to make a good living." "TAT should be giving us an award for creating a model alternative to sex tourism. Rather than put us out of business we hope they will find a way to work with us to develop gay tourism in the same responsible way."

The conviction is being appealed. The company has filed a lawsuit against TAT. Under the terms of a court injunction, they will continue to operate without interruption.

After this fiasco, it remains uncertain if this will affect any of the future gay events and businesses that are operating in Bangkok."

SGBoys.com

Utopia Asia .com

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

gay tourists immoral and inappropriate

Thai Government officials constantly say daft, ill-considered things.

Their spokesmen are a motley crew, except for Sihasak, the Foreign Affairs spokesman, whom I have met a few times and find intelligent.

Hasn't Utopia ruffled a few feathers before? I daresay this may be more of a private vendetta against its proprietor.

[ChrisP]

Sigh.....

I don't know WHAT to say......I'm astonished and appalled - IF this is really the Goverment's stance.

Maybe it's just a face-saving exercise..??

I would encourage everyone here to send their comments on this to Mr Thaksin.

ChrisP

[wowpow]

"I am assured this is an old story, long ago cleared up. Apparently it takes a long time for news on Thailand to make the Singapore gay reporters".

Gaypattayan on www.sawatdeeforum.com

[Khun Larry]

Thailand's government has shown signs that homosexual visitors are offensive to Thai culture and wishes to discourage gay visitors to the Land of Smiles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are more gay Thais per capita than any other country.

Thais should get their shit together.

[chonabot]

There are more gay Thais per capita than any other country.

Thais should get their shit together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Laz , but something in that statement cracked me up!

Cheers

[Sir Burr]

There are more gay Thais per capita than any other country.

Thais should get their shit together.

Sorry Laz , but something in that statement cracked me up!

Cheers

Freudian slip?

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm betting that this pronouncement does not represent the official policy of any agency in thailand, ESPECIALLY for tourism!

Spokespeeps do have a bad habit of shooting themselves in the foot at times. As speculated by others, there's more behind the scenes here.

What's next, a campaign against straight sex tourists?

[billyboy]

I'm betting that this pronouncement does not represent the official policy of any agency in thailand, ESPECIALLY for tourism!

Spokespeeps do have a bad habit of shooting themselves in the foot at times.  As speculated by others, there's more behind the scenes here.

What's next, a campaign against straight sex tourists?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally im glad the TAT have taken this action.Why should we have a travel agency that only deals with certain clientele?

TAT knows Thailand is for families too.

[Steve2UK]

I'm betting that this pronouncement does not represent the official policy of any agency in thailand, ESPECIALLY for tourism!

Spokespeeps do have a bad habit of shooting themselves in the foot at times.  As speculated by others, there's more behind the scenes here.

What's next, a campaign against straight sex tourists?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally im glad the TAT have taken this action.Why should we have a travel agency that only deals with certain clientele?

TAT knows Thailand is for families too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Duh............ Maybe so that different people can make different choices? Rich folks to the Dusit, backpackers to the guesthouse............. etc etc etc.

Edited March 13, 2005 by Steve2UK

[Ijustwannateach]

Of course, gays don't have families!!!

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

When I read the first post, I was struck by the fact that the story was "built" upon a comment made by one government official. How does that then become the policy of the entire governement including the TAT.

How many times have we heard "pronouncements" by officials that have been quickly denied by other officials. Remember the Pattaya immigration chief who was contradicticted by Bangkok, I think it was about long stay for five years or such?

I have never met a race of people who are less homophobic than those in Thailand, assuming they are not faced with a situation disgraceful in any country.

Competitors in Thailand can be very vengeful and stories abound as to what length they will go to affect the business of their competitors. This may be one of those cases.

We must also keep in mind that as the government heads toward the right, you will see more and more isolated governmental attempts to put a "face" on "morality" issues. Bar closings, curfews, raids, etc. are here to stay for the interim. Perhaps the public official making the statements thought he could get some mileage out of it. I do recall a "raid" on an establishment that had a "Thai Guy" magazine on the coffee table described by a police official as pornography, was it Utopia Tours?

[Guest endure]

I'm betting that this pronouncement does not represent the official policy of any agency in thailand, ESPECIALLY for tourism!

Spokespeeps do have a bad habit of shooting themselves in the foot at times.  As speculated by others, there's more behind the scenes here.

What's next, a campaign against straight sex tourists?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Personally im glad the TAT have taken this action.Why should we have a travel agency that only deals with certain clientele?

TAT knows Thailand is for families too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what all the other travel agencies are for. We have one - you have the rest. Don't be so greedy.

[Erwin1011]

If it is true it tastes a bit like discrimination and interference in the private life of an individual. But then again why is it that i'm really not surprised about that in the sweet free LOS ?

[ChrisP]

I do recall a "raid" on an establishment that had a "Thai Guy" magazine on the coffee table described by a police official as pornography, was it Utopia Tours?

Yes, It was them...

and "ThaiGuys" has NO porn... never has.

It's now been "re-invented" and called "Sticky Rice"..

(Not a good choice of name, really.. especially for the clientel they wish to attract.)

ChrisP

[ProThaiExpat]

ChrisP: I agree, bad name for a gay mag. If I follow the thought, are they suggesting in the title that gays who like Asians, (ie. rice queens) will find themselves adhering to the guys in the magazine?

[Ijustwannateach]

It was apparently decided by fiat that since the Utopia owner had to be convicted of *something*, it should be distributing pornography. Since the only thing he was distributing aside from business literature was Thai Guys, that meant Thai Guys had to be pornography!

I believe one of the judges (who was apparently a bit of a girl) in the case, in banning Thai Guys, said something like "if the models had been women, they might have been sexually arousing."

Try that on for a brain pretzel!

[wowpow]

The Judge in the case seems to have dealt very harshly with the Police's prosecution. It looks as if he threw then a face saver by a tortuous decision which was. Thai Guys Magazine was found to be obscene. Utopia advertise in Thai Guys and so by distributing the obscene magazine it was construed that they did so for profit.

Not only did they get a token fine but the judge stated that they were not to be deported. Bu the time of the case neither guy was still a Director of Utopia.

Douglas Thompson who still has the agency has had a very rough ride over this and the latest licensing news. I wish him well and that this important Asian website and travel agency should thrive.

[Considered Opinion]

I'm not sure why it matters. Can someone explain why it's needed to have gay travel agent?

If you have a half brain, it isn't hard to find your way around the gay scene in Thailand.

[ProThaiExpat]

Discrimination against gays is ever present in this world and many gays prefer to spend their money with businesses that are run by gays or are particularily gay friendly, catering to gays specifically.

Clearly, by searching google under any topic with gay after the subject will get you all the information you need regarding gay oriented businesses or venues. Some travelers do their own booking and othersprefer travel agencies, whthr their gay or straight travelers.

[Sophon]

I'm not sure why it matters. Can someone explain why it's needed to have gay travel agent?

If you have a half brain, it isn't hard to find your way around the gay scene in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was thinking the same. If Utopia Tours as stated doesn't target the "sex tourist segment" then what is it they offer, that makes them different from other travel agencies? I mean apart from sexual preference a gay tourist would presumably be no different than a straight tourist, and consequently would be interested in the same things.

So if a travel agent openly advertises as being "gay friendly" (and I don't know if Utopia does), then to me it indicates that they are indeed trying to attract sex-tourists. Same as it would if a travel agent advertised towards the "straight men" segment.

I would think that the suspension of Utopia Tours license is just a logic continuation of the policy the government have been trying to implement over the last few years, which in their minds will improve Thailands image and attract what they consider to be more suitable tourists. Personally I have no problems with sex tourists (gay or straight), as long as no laws are broken. To each their own.

Maybe I'm wrong and a gay travel agent do have something special to offer, other than sex-tours. I don't pretend to know much about the subject, and apologise if I have offended anyone.

Sophon

[maesai]

When possible I will ALWAYS patronize gay friendly businesses. Whether it is a travel agent, hotel, or doctor. It has nothing to do with sex. I prefer to do business with people that are like minded, sensitive to my needs, and not bigots. What is wrong with that?

[Steve2UK]

I'm not sure why it matters. Can someone explain why it's needed to have gay travel agent?

If you have a half brain, it isn't hard to find your way around the gay scene in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Granted that anyone with half a brain should be able to locate gay-friendly or gay-oriented places to stay and visit - and my experience over the years is that gays were generally quicker to start using internet resources (along with scuba divers - but that's another story ).

BUT - as has been mentioned - some folks like to spend their pink pound/dollar/euro with gay-oriented businesses. And some folks (including some gay ones) just like everything pre-sorted and laid on for them. And quite a few come as couples so aren't necessarily looking for Thai frolics on the side; in which case, they may well want assurance that they aren't going to run into any kind of hassle sharing a bed.

There's room for all kinds of agent (singles, family, backpacker, up-market escorted tours, gay etc etc) - so why not?

[Sophon]

When possible I will ALWAYS patronize gay friendly businesses.  Whether it is a travel agent, hotel, or doctor.  It has nothing to do with sex.  I prefer to do business with people that are like minded, sensitive to my needs, and not bigots.  What is wrong with that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my mind nothing. Anyone should have the right to patronise whatever business they want to. However, if someone stated that they would always patronise "straight friendly" or "white friendly" businesses based purely on them being exactly that, I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with those statements. There seems to be a lot of such reverse bigotry/racism around.

To me anyone have a right to think, say and do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's right to do the same. That includes racists and chauvinists. The fact that I disagree with them gives me no right to try to censure them, even given the fact that my opinion is of course the only correct one

Belonging to a discriminated against minority in my mind doesn't justify reverse discrimination, but I realise that it's easy for me to say that, seeing that in most ways I am part of the majority.

Not trying to offend anyone here, just stating my personal opinion, live and let live.

Sophon

[maesai]

When possible I will ALWAYS patronize gay friendly businesses.  Whether it is a travel agent, hotel, or doctor.  It has nothing to do with sex.  I prefer to do business with people that are like minded, sensitive to my needs, and not bigots.  What is wrong with that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my mind nothing. Anyone should have the right to patronise whatever business they want to. However, if someone stated that they would always patronise "straight friendly" or "white friendly" businesses based purely on them being exactly that, I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with those statements. There seems to be a lot of such reverse bigotry/racism around.

To me anyone have a right to think, say and do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's right to do the same. That includes racists and chauvinists. The fact that I disagree with them gives me no right to try to censure them, even given the fact that my opinion is of course the only correct one

Belonging to a discriminated against minority in my mind doesn't justify reverse discrimination, but I realise that it's easy for me to say that, seeing that in most ways I am part of the majority.

Not trying to offend anyone here, just stating my personal opinion, live and let live.

Sophon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You sound like you have some libertarian tendencies. We have something in common there.

I don't avoid straight owned businesses because they are straight. I patronize gay friendly businesses because they are more in tune with my needs as a gay person.

A travel agent that has experience with gay clientele will likely put myself and my partner in a hotel where we are not going to be made to feel unwelcome by a bigoted proprietor. It is as simple as that.

[ChrisP]

Some gay-owned/run businesses, unfortunately, think they they can cash in on this loyalty by charging more for similar services.

Just because they're gay-oriented, I won't spend my $$ there if they do that..

ChrisP

[ProThaiExpat]

Some might recall the Bed and Breakfast establishment in the U.K. that lost its license for refusing lodging to a gay couple within the last year.

I started a real estate company in Hawaii in 1990 with a gay broker and marketed to the gays on the internet interested in housing on Oahu. The response was very gratifying and we sold many units to this segment.

The gays seeking a gay realtor can rest easy that, in most cases, their broker assisted choice would not be in a location where they would suffer discrimination, including lenders and connections to gay friendly service providers.

My experience in world travel has taught me that there is little discrimination among well traveled and educated people anywhere. However, the dominance of the religios right in the United States at this time is breeding a entirely new wave of homophobia seen in the marked increase in gay bashings and elimnination of gay programs in schools. Even the Bush Attorney General opined, wrongly, tht gays had no rights against discrimination in the federal government. He later retracted when attacked on the issue, but the bigotry remains and currently is very pervasive in the U.S, part of the "move to the right" in politics. as seen in many of the policy initiatives of the current administration.

Thailand is likewise being taken to the right by Thaksin, as can be seen by the subject of this thread, the "announced" curtailment of the sex industry and bar scene and his "get tough" policies in almost every area.

Well intentioned posters, who "can't understand why gays would want a gay travel agent" should be able to see, upon reflection, that by merely making that statement, they clearly are part of the majority who don't understand the pervasive discrimination experienced by gays in their daily lives.

Most members of minority groups tend to choose service providers of their own nationality, ethnicity or religious persuasion, in my experience,

even when perceived discrimination is not present.

[Considered Opinion]

As a well intentioned gay poster, I still wonder why.

I accept some folks don't feel comfortable talking to non gays about things like sharing a bed, however I suppose I am fortunate not ever having felt uncomfortable asking for a double room in Thailand when travelling with my non commercial bf of almost 4 years.

To each his own, but I find that the "gay-oriented" businesses I have frequented in Thailand are more likely to gouge than an organisation I just contact and explain my requirements.

[ChrisP]

In the USA you can order your own Check-Books from many different printing companies.. usually about $8 for 150 checks. An enterprising gay company decided produce very "gay-themed" checks... $16 for 150.

I don't see them in business any more.....

ChrisP

[Steve2UK]

Most members of minority groups tend to choose service providers of their own nationality, ethnicity or religious persuasion, in my experience,

even when perceived discrimination is not present.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In answer to Sophon's (I'm sure) well-intentioned comment about "reverse bigotry/racism" - it is the minority factor that's the key. It's just reality that it's not a level playing field out there; any society inevitably caters more readily and comprehensively for the majority than any minority - be it a distinction based on ethnicity, belief, sexual orientation, physical (in)capacity etc etc. Democracy at work, if you like.........

So, IMHO, it seems inevitable that minorities will "group" to enhance their own potential. That said, it seems equally inevitable that some business operators will seek to exploit the group - particularly when it has above-average spending power (generally true of gays who - again generally - don't have the financial commitments required for raising families). By definition, the minority will have fewer "dedicated" suppliers from whom to make their purchase choice - and less competition usually means higher prices. Market forces at work.......... (see JM Keynes - who happened to be gay, but I digress ).

On a practical level, I've learned over the years to spot the niche supplier who is sloppy/expensive in general terms - the ones who rely on their "special" (minority-targeted) status to make up for their lack of service, value etc. Simple example: many gay bars are over-priced and cr*p compared to their straight competition.

It's not a perfect world..............