Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed

[Insight]

Do you consider Isaan people under educated, ignorant and uniformed? Simple yes or no. Possibly not even beyond you.

How about if you tell us if you consider voter intimidation to be an issue in Isaan?

[Jingthing]

Anyone of any intelligence and education level is capable of being fooled by a slimy politician. However, I do characterize the current red shirt mob followers of Thaksin, now that the truth of his deeds and character are well exposed, to indeed be stupid (and dangerous). Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me ...

[mca]

Plus. You're obviously not exactly the sharpest tool in the box but do try to keep up.

Animatic referred to Isaan people (not some) as under educated, ignorant and uniformed. He has not brought any points to back up these condescending claims apart form a load of rhetoric.

Plus (sigh) I never said he called Isaan people stupid no matter how much you want to believe it. Sure I said "intellectual morons" but by the dictionary definition of these words his opinions of over 20 million people fit that train of thought

Now anything concrete or original to add to refute my own opinions on Isaan people or is the "Troll" CD stuck on replay?

@mca

Any way you are bitching about words never said for a special reason?

And if you reply it would be too kind to me your opinion about the interview of the "Rak Chiang Mai 51" spokeswoman?

If you are too lazy to go back the few pages that you where trying to type into somebody else keyboard here is the link, again:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

I would be really interested to know without beeing a totally uneducated and/or stupid and/or ignorant person, how could someone follow a woman like this?

Thank you

Err... last I heard I was defending Isaan people from their detractors and folks who claim they know the will of millions of Isaan people think and unless I'm very much mistaken "Rak Chiang Mai 51" would suggest that the person making those comments is based in Chiang Mai perchance? Unless over 20 million Isaan people somehow agree with a few nutjobs from Chiang Mai (though I suppose thats what a few posters on here would like to believe)

Would you like me to comment on the price of Llama shit in Peru next and what Isaan folks think about that?

[mca]

Do you consider Isaan people under educated, ignorant and uniformed? Simple yes or no. Possibly not even beyond you.

How about if you tell us if you consider voter intimidation to be an issue in Isaan?

Intimidation on a minute scale. BY all parties. But vastly outnumbered by genuine votes.

This is how it goes in Isaan. Take money from Thaksins lot. Take money from the Democrats. Vote for who you like.

[noithip]

Plus. You're obviously not exactly the sharpest tool in the box but do try to keep up.

Animatic referred to Isaan people (not some) as under educated, ignorant and uniformed. He has not brought any points to back up these condescending claims apart form a load of rhetoric.

Plus (sigh) I never said he called Isaan people stupid no matter how much you want to believe it. Sure I said "intellectual morons" but by the dictionary definition of these words his opinions of over 20 million people fit that train of thought

Now anything concrete or original to add to refute my own opinions on Isaan people or is the "Troll" CD stuck on replay?

@mca

Any way you are bitching about words never said for a special reason?

And if you reply it would be too kind to me your opinion about the interview of the "Rak Chiang Mai 51" spokeswoman?

If you are too lazy to go back the few pages that you where trying to type into somebody else keyboard here is the link, again:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.p...2afccf61b30aca9

I would be really interested to know without beeing a totally uneducated and/or stupid and/or ignorant person, how could someone follow a woman like this?

Thank you

Err... last I heard I was defending Isaan people from their detractors and folks who claim they know the will of millions of Isaan people think and unless I'm very much mistaken "Rak Chiang Mai 51" would suggest that the person making those comments is based in Chiang Mai perchance? Unless over 20 million Isaan people somehow agree with a few nutjobs from Chiang Mai (though I suppose thats what a few posters on here would like to believe)

Would you like me to comment on the price of Llama shit in Peru next and what Isaan folks think about that?

Are you out of your mind? This thread doesn't say "Isaans population, statistic and mental ejaculation" ! It is about a red shirts rally postponed!

Anyway if you would have read the interview you would know:

1. The woman (nutjob as you put it) is a personal friend of Thaksin, so it might matter!

2. The nutjob quote: "After the 2006 coup, I felt such pressure by the military to shut up and to stop protesting that I fled to Isaan for many months, and there my husband and I helped set up other red networks." Knowing she set up red networks in Isaan, it might matter to your "20 million"!

3. That you are welcome to put your head deep into "llama shit" for half an hour and then maybe keep posting in an Isaan forum preferebly in arabic!

Welcome

[ballpoint]

What is Isaan? The big mistake being made in many of the threads here is this idea of it being a culturally homogeneous region, slightly separated from the rest of Thailand. Indeed, anyone using the term "Isaan" in an attempt to generalise its entire population as one similar thinking group of people is showing their lack of knowledge of what is purely a geographical region, not a political one. Apart from Buddhism, a Khmer speaking native of Buri Ram has culturally little in common with a Suay speaking native of Surin, and even less with a Laos speaker from Nong Khai, yet some here would lump them all together as one big ethno political group, similar to the muslims in the south. I wouldn't deign to generalise about Isaan political feeling, as some posters here grandly feel they are able to do, but I do have an idea as to how things work in this part of Buri Ram, having lived here for close to 20 years. Any serious political discussions in the village are done in the local Khmer dialect, which is why I'm wary when people who have trouble even speaking Thai claim to be experts on Isaanise thinking, because they met a few people from Isaan in Bangkok and had a fractured English / Thai conversation with them. I do speak the dialect, and still would not claim to be an expert.

One generalisation that does ring true however is, like much of the rest of Thailand, tradition forms a big part of daily life, including who they vote for in local and national elections. Many people have voted for the same politicians, and their families, in every election. Just look at the Chidchop clan in Buri Ram, and the number of wives, sons and daughters of banned politicians that are now in parliament. The only thing that changes is the political parties those people are in, and the coalitions those parties form. What Thaksin did was to realise the population of the Isaan region forms an enormous percentage of the voters in Thailand, and whoever controls the politicians they vote for has a good chance of controlling the country. He therefore went ahead and bought up many of these politicians, either directly as part of the TRT, or as coalition members. When in power, he was able to make a number of gestures to the people, such as cheap loans, OTOP and the 30 baht health care, and propaganda-ise it to say "look, I'm rich, I can afford to give you all this", when in the big scheme of things it was very little and none of it came from his pocket. In truth, Thaksin had no interest in elevating the rural poor, educationally or financially. Why should he? It was in his interests to keep them as they are, after all, they voted for him as they are. And before the "ooh how racist, Isaan people aren't dumb" rants begin, the majority of school children here have very little chance of bettering themselves. They are taught their place in society from the day they begin school, including the self deprecating terms they "must" use to refer to themselves when talking to their "betters". And who should wai first, and what height the wai should be. Valuable educational topics for getting ahead in life? And guess what changed in the 6+ years Thaksin was in charge? Nothing. Mum and dad bought a new motorbike / truck / DVD player / mobile phone and got a little further into debt. Little Somchai continued to be educated in his place in the world, and the teachers continued to make a bit of extra money by giving him "extra" lessons after school, to teach him the basics of how to read and add. Basics he should have been learning in the school day anyway. In short, life went on as it always has, with any improvements in their lives largely due to natural progress. When I first moved to Buri Ram, there was no electricity in our village, no sealed road for 20km, no phone lines, very few motorscooters and cars, ploughing was done by buffalo and water was collected at a hand pump and wheeled back to the house in a hand cart. Long before Thaksin had been heard of we had electricity, tractors, piped water, sealed roads, and most families had at least one motorscooter, if not a pickup truck. When Thaksin was in power things progressed further, no faster or slower than before, but still no phone line despite his promise, and now he's gone things are progressing still. Thaksin's great "redemption of the rural poor" is nothing more than a myth.

Off topic on the OP I know, but very much on topic as to the way this thread has gone. All this talk of Thaksin being an essential part of the country's reconciliation is wishful thinking on his supporters part. The majority of the people will continue to vote for the same politicians as always, whether Thaksin is in charge or not.

[abdulrahman]

This thread,as most other,politically motivated,is going nowhere.

Sure. I want to dispel this myth that Isaan is just some giant paddy field with uneducated kids running around while their uneducated folks plant rice. It's simply not true. The vast, vast majority of Isaan kids (even the ones from the poorer families) are schooled up to M4 and beyond and the ones who aren't, well, that's not just Isaan. You'll find that everywhere in Thailand including Bangkok.

Only one point:I'm living in Isaan many years already,pay the school fees for 2 boys now,Pathom3 and Matayom2,respectively,the girl finished Matayom5 already.

The quantity of education may be high,the quality is ****.The teacher are a pair with the R.T.Police, badly paid,worse qualified,but with impressive uniforms.

An Isaan child at the end of Matayom,for my standards IS uneducated.Less than 50% finish Matayom.

Their parents(and here I speak about middle-class Thais) had not so many years in school.

These are facts known by every expat living in Isaan.Or have you the famous rose-tinted glasses?

[animatic]

Plus. You're obviously not exactly the sharpest tool in the box but do try to keep up....

Well this almost gives a text book example of "Condescending" which equates to "offensively patroninzing".

teapot / kettle / greasy frying pan / sharpend stick with a burnt weiner.

Only you hairdresser knows for sure.

[animatic]

What is Isaan? The big mistake being made in many of the threads here is this idea of it being a culturally homogeneous region, slightly separated from the rest of Thailand. Indeed, anyone using the term "Isaan" in an attempt to generalise its entire population as one similar thinking group of people is showing their lack of knowledge of what is purely a geographical region, not a political one. Apart from Buddhism, a Khmer speaking native of Buri Ram has culturally little in common with a Suay speaking native of Surin, and even less with a Laos speaker from Nong Khai, yet some here would lump them all together as one big ethno political group, similar to the muslims in the south. I wouldn't deign to generalise about Isaan political feeling, as some posters here grandly feel they are able to do, but I do have an idea as to how things work in this part of Buri Ram, having lived here for close to 20 years. Any serious political discussions in the village are done in the local Khmer dialect, which is why I'm wary when people who have trouble even speaking Thai claim to be experts on Isaanise thinking, because they met a few people from Isaan in Bangkok and had a fractured English / Thai conversation with them. I do speak the dialect, and still would not claim to be an expert.

One generalisation that does ring true however is, like much of the rest of Thailand, tradition forms a big part of daily life, including who they vote for in local and national elections. Many people have voted for the same politicians, and their families, in every election. Just look at the Chidchop clan in Buri Ram, and the number of wives, sons and daughters of banned politicians that are now in parliament. The only thing that changes is the political parties those people are in, and the coalitions those parties form. What Thaksin did was to realise the population of the Isaan region forms an enormous percentage of the voters in Thailand, and whoever controls the politicians they vote for has a good chance of controlling the country. He therefore went ahead and bought up many of these politicians, either directly as part of the TRT, or as coalition members. When in power, he was able to make a number of gestures to the people, such as cheap loans, OTOP and the 30 baht health care, and propaganda-ise it to say "look, I'm rich, I can afford to give you all this", when in the big scheme of things it was very little and none of it came from his pocket. In truth, Thaksin had no interest in elevating the rural poor, educationally or financially. Why should he? It was in his interests to keep them as they are, after all, they voted for him as they are. And before the "ooh how racist, Isaan people aren't dumb" rants begin, the majority of school children here have very little chance of bettering themselves. They are taught their place in society from the day they begin school, including the self deprecating terms they "must" use to refer to themselves when talking to their "betters". And who should wai first, and what height the wai should be. Valuable educational topics for getting ahead in life? And guess what changed in the 6+ years Thaksin was in charge? Nothing. Mum and dad bought a new motorbike / truck / DVD player / mobile phone and got a little further into debt. Little Somchai continued to be educated in his place in the world, and the teachers continued to make a bit of extra money by giving him "extra" lessons after school, to teach him the basics of how to read and add. Basics he should have been learning in the school day anyway. In short, life went on as it always has, with any improvements in their lives largely due to natural progress. When I first moved to Buri Ram, there was no electricity in our village, no sealed road for 20km, no phone lines, very few motorscooters and cars, ploughing was done by buffalo and water was collected at a hand pump and wheeled back to the house in a hand cart. Long before Thaksin had been heard of we had electricity, tractors, piped water, sealed roads, and most families had at least one motorscooter, if not a pickup truck. When Thaksin was in power things progressed further, no faster or slower than before, but still no phone line despite his promise, and now he's gone things are progressing still. Thaksin's great "redemption of the rural poor" is nothing more than a myth.

Off topic on the OP I know, but very much on topic as to the way this thread has gone. All this talk of Thaksin being an essential part of the country's reconciliation is wishful thinking on his supporters part. The majority of the people will continue to vote for the same politicians as always, whether Thaksin is in charge or not.

Excellent post. Spot on.

It fills in a few gaps.

I never assumed that Issan is one place and one set of people, but many.

Thaksin found a way to create a political machine that over-rode those differences,

harnessing the very people ("betters") who keep the poor down as a way of controlling them,

and getting the votes. As well as his trying to make a faux personal connection,

via religion and supersition as an over umbrella with in sveral levels or subcultures.

Good political moves, but cynical and amoral too.

Ballpoint, a home run, googlie or hattrick to you.

Set down thy quill, knowing a good job was done.

PS abdulrahman good one also!

Edited September 2, 2009 by animatic

[Bukseeda]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but after the 2001 election there was massive manipulation of media. All state-owned TV became propaganda tools for Thai Rak Thai in a scale never before seen under a democratically elected government. Large swathes of print media were under the control of pro Thai Rak Thai owners. Those media outlets which dared to speak against the government were sued for literally billions of baht in defamation suits.

The point is, regardless of who had how much education, the main source of news (TV) was biased meaning that people were unable to make an informed decision.

We must not forget the influence of Village headmen (another group who were one of the early beneficiaries of Thaksin who strengthened their position). In many villages, the voters will heed the advice of the headman. That's not because they're stupid or blindly follow, but it's just because that's what they've always done. The net result is the same. My ex and I were astounded when we visited her grandparents' village in Prachinburi in 2003 or 04 to see a sign declaring "this village is Thai Rak Thai". A significant amount of peer pressure going on there...

[noithip]

What is Isaan? The big mistake being made in many of the threads here is this idea of it being a culturally homogeneous region, slightly separated from the rest of Thailand. Indeed, anyone using the term "Isaan" in an attempt to generalise its entire population as one similar thinking group of people is showing their lack of knowledge of what is purely a geographical region, not a political one. Apart from Buddhism, a Khmer speaking native of Buri Ram has culturally little in common with a Suay speaking native of Surin, and even less with a Laos speaker from Nong Khai, yet some here would lump them all together as one big ethno political group, similar to the muslims in the south. I wouldn't deign to generalise about Isaan political feeling, as some posters here grandly feel they are able to do, but I do have an idea as to how things work in this part of Buri Ram, having lived here for close to 20 years. Any serious political discussions in the village are done in the local Khmer dialect, which is why I'm wary when people who have trouble even speaking Thai claim to be experts on Isaanise thinking, because they met a few people from Isaan in Bangkok and had a fractured English / Thai conversation with them. I do speak the dialect, and still would not claim to be an expert.

One generalisation that does ring true however is, like much of the rest of Thailand, tradition forms a big part of daily life, including who they vote for in local and national elections. Many people have voted for the same politicians, and their families, in every election. Just look at the Chidchop clan in Buri Ram, and the number of wives, sons and daughters of banned politicians that are now in parliament. The only thing that changes is the political parties those people are in, and the coalitions those parties form. What Thaksin did was to realise the population of the Isaan region forms an enormous percentage of the voters in Thailand, and whoever controls the politicians they vote for has a good chance of controlling the country. He therefore went ahead and bought up many of these politicians, either directly as part of the TRT, or as coalition members. When in power, he was able to make a number of gestures to the people, such as cheap loans, OTOP and the 30 baht health care, and propaganda-ise it to say "look, I'm rich, I can afford to give you all this", when in the big scheme of things it was very little and none of it came from his pocket. In truth, Thaksin had no interest in elevating the rural poor, educationally or financially. Why should he? It was in his interests to keep them as they are, after all, they voted for him as they are. And before the "ooh how racist, Isaan people aren't dumb" rants begin, the majority of school children here have very little chance of bettering themselves. They are taught their place in society from the day they begin school, including the self deprecating terms they "must" use to refer to themselves when talking to their "betters". And who should wai first, and what height the wai should be. Valuable educational topics for getting ahead in life? And guess what changed in the 6+ years Thaksin was in charge? Nothing. Mum and dad bought a new motorbike / truck / DVD player / mobile phone and got a little further into debt. Little Somchai continued to be educated in his place in the world, and the teachers continued to make a bit of extra money by giving him "extra" lessons after school, to teach him the basics of how to read and add. Basics he should have been learning in the school day anyway. In short, life went on as it always has, with any improvements in their lives largely due to natural progress. When I first moved to Buri Ram, there was no electricity in our village, no sealed road for 20km, no phone lines, very few motorscooters and cars, ploughing was done by buffalo and water was collected at a hand pump and wheeled back to the house in a hand cart. Long before Thaksin had been heard of we had electricity, tractors, piped water, sealed roads, and most families had at least one motorscooter, if not a pickup truck. When Thaksin was in power things progressed further, no faster or slower than before, but still no phone line despite his promise, and now he's gone things are progressing still. Thaksin's great "redemption of the rural poor" is nothing more than a myth.

Off topic on the OP I know, but very much on topic as to the way this thread has gone. All this talk of Thaksin being an essential part of the country's reconciliation is wishful thinking on his supporters part. The majority of the people will continue to vote for the same politicians as always, whether Thaksin is in charge or not.

Thanks for the input! Couldn't agree more!

[brahmburgers]

In my early days here back in 2001, when I frequented the bar scene a h3ll of a lot more than I do now (label me what you wish for that), the mantra I heard often from the folk working there about Thaksin was along the lines of...

"He's got so much money he'll put it back into Thailand and the economy"

"He doesn't need to be corrupt as he has all his money"

"He gives away lots of money so he's a good man"

"He will be good at managing the government because he is good with business"

Agree. I was hearing the same sorts of justifications for Thaksin back then. Perhaps the same people are still thinking Thaksin is some sort of savior for the same reasons, though if anyone is still thinking that now, they must be stuck like glue to denial - as there have been immense amounts of proof, during the past 8 years, of T's indelible corruption and bottomless greed.

People who believe the super rich have no lust for added wealth are just plain dumb. And to surmise that the filthy rich will somehow float above moral pitfalls is just as dumb. Sorry, I got to call it as I see it. If it describes some Issan people, then so be it.

Edited September 2, 2009 by brahmburgers

[Plus]

I can't believe you're really this obtuse. tell me you're kidding.If you'd care to read my post you'd see I said that Animatic didn't say those words. If you really need somebody to completely verbalize something before forming an opinion based on other things they wrote then you must be all of 5 years old.

Plus where I'm from some quarters can refer to a single entity.

Poorly informed is nowhere near "intellectual morons"

He also used the word "ignorance" or is that a term used in reference to nuclear physicists where you're from?

He also specifically stressed that ignorance he was talking about was not a sight of stupidity. Moron is synonim for stupid, btw.

He was talking about Thaksin, and "being kept in the dark" is not being an "intellectual moron"

As another point goes sailing into the stratosphere above your head. My point is that Thaksin didn't keep Isaan people in the dark with his B/S. They aren't daft. To suggest otherwise would indicate that yes, Isaan people are "intellectual morons'

It would be daft to claim that Thaksin didn't use mass media to control the flow of opinions and information.

The truth is you put your words into people's mouths, got caught, and now you are trying to justify it with one post which you are stretching beyond any reason.

[jayboy]

I hope it isn't thought off topic but I was struck by these words of Winston Churchill given the passions shown in this thread, and of course others in discussing the current political divisions in Thailand.

"It is not given to human beings, happily for them, for otherwise life would be intolerable, to foresee or to predict to any large extent the unfolding course of events. In one phase men seem to have been right, in another they seem to have been wrong. Then again, a few years later, when the perspective of time has lengthened, all stands in a different setting. There is a new proportion. There is another scale of values. History with its flickering lamp stumbles along the trail of the past, trying to reconstruct its scenes, to revive its echoes, and kindle with pale gleams the passion of former days."

The brilliance and quality of the man shine through the decades, above all perhaps the generosity of spirit - so rare in Thai politics.And how strange our deliberations will seem with the passage of time, say ten years - the inflamed passions of expatriates.My guess is the Thailand that most of us cherish will in all important respects be much the same.

[animatic]

I hope it isn't thought off topic but I was struck by these words of Winston Churchill given the passions shown in this thread, and of course others in discussing the current political divisions in Thailand.

"It is not given to human beings, happily for them, for otherwise life would be intolerable, to foresee or to predict to any large extent the unfolding course of events. In one phase men seem to have been right, in another they seem to have been wrong. Then again, a few years later, when the perspective of time has lengthened, all stands in a different setting. There is a new proportion. There is another scale of values. History with its flickering lamp stumbles along the trail of the past, trying to reconstruct its scenes, to revive its echoes, and kindle with pale gleams the passion of former days."

The brilliance and quality of the man shine through the decades, above all perhaps the generosity of spirit - so rare in Thai politics.And how strange our deliberations will seem with the passage of time, say ten years - the inflamed passions of expatriates.My guess is the Thailand that most of us cherish will in all important respects be much the same.

For once I can agree with you, except that last line.

There will be far too soon a harsh change in how this country exists,

and our current time's modulations, are in preparation for surviving that sad end game.

How harsh is part of what is being dealt with at present.