Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed

[TAWP]

Well, that is 26 posts with a definite slant against the pro-democracy movement who cancelled their rally this week-end, or rather, moved it to next weekend.

/.../

Mindless dribble from Ferwert again.

Oh, and no pro-democracy movement has neither 'cancelled '[sic] or planned to hold any rally this Sunday. The red shirts however has.

[Maiya]

Well folks......

Read the newspaper article (post #29) and then my post #27

I rest my case!!!!!!!

[Andrew Hicks]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

Leaving the issue of violent demostration out of it, a red shirt would say that Thaksin, the most popular politician in Thailand ever, was removed from office in a coup which was justified by extensive street protests by the yellow shirts and the resulting national instability.

Following the interim appointed military government's year in office, those representing Thaksin were again overwhelmingly voted into office but were not allowed to govern. The democratically elected PM was removed from office for wielding a spatula on TV, which could be called a bit of a stitch-up. There then followed an extraodinary shift in the balance of power when a pro-Thaksin faction crossed the floor to the Democrats who then headed a new coalition government.

If you were a red shirt. one of a huge majority of ordinary poor people who want a government that will have regards to its interests, would you not now be raging mad? Would you not want to demonstrate on the streets? Would you not feel that democracy had been denied to you and that doing what the yellow shorts did before you and doing it better is your only way out.

How sad that Thai politics has come down to a personality cult rather than a debate about contending issues. How ironic that the champion of the poor is one such as Thaksin. How sad that the politician with the strong democratic mandate is not Abhisit.

It's all so very, very sad.

If there's a lesson it's perhaps that (like regime change in Iraq), a coup achieves nothing except increasing strife.

Where can it all go from here?

Andrew

[hansnl]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

A Thai Mussolini?

No, of course not.

Mr. T. is the Thai equivalent of Berlusconi, more or less.

Or the other way around.

Both are stinking rich and think they are above the law.

Both have not a democratic microbe in them, only the wish for unchecked power.

Both will do nearly anything to hold on to that power, or to get it (back).

Edited August 29, 2009 by hansnl

[sunholidaysun1]

If they cant even organise a demonstration then theres no hope in Thailand if the Reds get into government .

[frodo]

"The ISA has been unnecessarily enforced as the UDD gatherings have usually been carried out peacefully," Mr Veera said.

Just that is enough for a reason to have the ISA. Usually carried out peacefully, other times violent. No need to take a chance against the history of violence caused by this group. Had they been carried out peacefully at all times, there would not have been a need.

[DP25]

Seems they made a blunder by allowing their fake riot tape to be released early. Debuting the audio tape directly at the rally, before anyone had a chance to discover that it was a fake, could have spurred their mob in to violent rioting.

[Jingthing]

Andrew Hicks:

How ironic that the champion of the poor is one such as Thaksin.

You can say that again.

Yes, the redshirts are raging mad. However, at this point, where the country is now, it is time to stop mob rule.

Those itching for real change here in Thailand would be well served to cultivate a new leader with ethics (and a new COLOR) and then they can begin a legitimate people power movement. This Thaksin mania will bring nothing good.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Jingthing

[Thai at Heart]

Invoking the ISA is no mealy mouthed effort. It is a very serious piece of law which grants very extreme powers to the army and the government.

I don't know how many people they were hoping to get at the rally, but having soldiers sitting around with guns "hidden" and a large crowd is a very volatile situation.

[Jingthing]

Invoking the ISA is no mealy mouthed effort. It is a very serious piece of law which grants very extreme powers to the army and the government.

I don't know how many people they were hoping to get at the rally, but having soldiers sitting around with guns "hidden" and a large crowd is a very volatile situation.

Yes it is serious and also completely justified. Did you see what happened in Pattaya and Black Songkran, or not? Thaksin openly advocated REVOLUTION. No government in the world would sit back for that.

[hammered]

Seems they made a blunder by allowing their fake riot tape to be released early. Debuting the audio tape directly at the rally, before anyone had a chance to discover that it was a fake, could have spurred their mob in to violent rioting.

An interesting point. Put in the context of some division over leadership currently in the red camp and it could have been leaked due to internal divisions over something. That would explain cancalling the rally although with Khwanchai having aisd the rally was a waste of money and claiming Thaksin agreed with him (Thaksin also wasnt speaking at this one) I would tend to think it was cancelled more on practical grounds.

There is also a chance that the tape is a plant it has to be said. That however would be some accomplishment if it also can forensically by traced back to SC Asset, which is going to be very damaging if true.

[Scott]

And now the gov't will be busy cancelling this ISA and getting a new one in place. Hope they have some time to get some real work done.

[hammered]

And now the gov't will be busy cancelling this ISA and getting a new one in place. Hope they have some time to get some real work done.

That is part of the strategy of the reds to thwart government functioning. The yellows also used that against the Somchai and Samak adnministrations and Thaksin's earlier. The impact has ben different. Note the budget bill just got voted through. This is huge as it the bureacrats can now start spending it which will help government. The PAD were always trying to thwart budget bills too.

If one wanted to be cynical one could argue that with the passage of the budget bill the rally was always going to be cancelled. If the vote had been manouvered to Monday or later as PTP wanted, a surrounding of government house could have left the government in the very precarious position of not being able to pass the budget. No Thai government has ever survived that.

[nickynomates]

Quite cleaver the reds get to build up steam with little or no effort.

Hard done by.!!!!!!!

Say it enough and the masses will believe it.

[firestar]

The irony runs thick in this thread.

Maybe if as soon as they protest the Red Shirts weren't met by government faction sponsored "Blue shirts" or fake "Sala daeng Residents" armed with talkie walkies, metal bars and guns that charge at them it wouldn't degenerate into violence.

Also amusing to see that those who supported a group who stormed an international airport and found it "good fun" are so outraged at a broken hotel door ::2 cents::

And ofcourse you have evidence that it was indeed 'fake Sala Daeng Residents' [sic] (amazingly nothing of this took place close to Sala Daeng, so...) that stormed any 'peaceful protesters' and ended up having two of the 'fakes' shot dead by the 'peaceful'?

Nowhere did I say that if provoked the Red Shirts wouldn't react violently, there is violence on both sides.

Some Blue Shirts were recognized as PAD guards from the Government House occupation. Others Blue Shirts later told that they were Navy personnel from Satthahip. (many pics of them armed or driving into town at the back of pick-ups full of wooden clubs)

Other anti red shirts that mingled amongst army personnel called themselves the “Glum Rak Pandin Goed” (The Group that Loves their Land of Birth). Most of them had problems remembering their own name when asked.

Yet according to The Nation and Government Media, it was spontaneously that local residents fed up with the whole few days of disturbance in Bangkok took arms against the protesters. Yeah riiiiiight.

Thanks for picking up the typo though you know I meant ding daeng.

Edited August 29, 2009 by firestar

[xminator]

And now the gov't will be busy cancelling this ISA and getting a new one in place. Hope they have some time to get some real work done.

So they can get back to posting news about where Thaksin is and what his color of passport is this week, and maybe spend some more days to deny something? There will of course be found time for some white uniform posing, very nice pictures for the press that is.

Well, as long as noone get in the way of Khun Farangs Singha and beach visit what is effectively martial law is 100% called for and ok...

[peacefulwarrior]

Let's just hope they can wait until January. Abhisit has said a few times, if I remember, to give this government a year and see how they do, and that he would probably call for elections after just a year. Let's see if he stays true to his word. If he doesn't, then I think protests can be justified. But red shirts, have a little bloody patience.

Protests are justified anytime for any reason. Violent demonstrations are not. Why the postponement? They were allowed to rally. You figure it out ...

Yes exactly! & the news was also that the house might be resolved very soon, they are all pushers! They push the laws to be more restrictive and then give the spoon to the next rich brag from the Oxford studied elite, so to make it more 'consistent' / 'elusive' what is changing. You don't read the 1000pages documents they call laws and so does the elite not, so where is it coming from?

Why can they say in the Bangkok post, that they have 4000men waiting for trouble aka police/military which is extremely good at dealing with protesters? See Songkran!

Why can they say they have a 'high-tech' military device (from the 40ies) which gives people 'headaches' in a 3km radius if the situation gets out of hand? This is psychic warfare and against ALL REGULATIONS concerning civilians.

Why can they put one puppet after the other in place ALLOVER THE WORLD restricting citizens what they can do (make their voices heard) ?

Don't get me on one side with these statements, I neither want a red Thaksin which has stolen a lot of money by not paying taxes and so forth, nor the yellow old 'elite' of corrupt crooks, see Bangkok mayors for example, to lead the country. I was seriously thinking about showing up at Sanam Luang wearing a green shirt and telling them all that either side is just an illusive group which does NOT CARE ABOUT PEOPLE but how to get the most power and money out of their positions.

FKN B$ ... and we are just caught in choosing one side (democrats vs. republicans it is usually), where they all piss about it and laugh their asses of the end of the day, seeing people falling for simple Machiavelli Agendas. Yeah, yeah don't bother I don't like it and will leave soon, so keep your 5 cents of rant put... thanks

Cheers to the people and FK the self declared leadership aka snobby holes from some 0.87% of the population

Maybe the last one

Cya's in a better place!

[hammered]

The irony runs thick in this thread.

Maybe if as soon as they protest the Red Shirts weren't met by government faction sponsored "Blue shirts" or fake "Sala daeng Residents" armed with talkie walkies, metal bars and guns that charge at them it wouldn't degenerate into violence.

Also amusing to see that those who supported a group who stormed an international airport and found it "good fun" are so outraged at a broken hotel door ::2 cents::

And ofcourse you have evidence that it was indeed 'fake Sala Daeng Residents' [sic] (amazingly nothing of this took place close to Sala Daeng, so...) that stormed any 'peaceful protesters' and ended up having two of the 'fakes' shot dead by the 'peaceful'?

Nowhere did I say that if provoked the Red Shirts wouldn't react violently, there is violence on both sides.

Some Blue Shirts were recognized as PAD guards from the Government House occupation. Others Blue Shirts later told that they were Navy personnel from Satthahip. (many pics of them armed or driving into town at the back of pick-ups full of wooden clubs)

Other anti red shirts that mingled amongst army personnel called themselves the “Glum Rak Pandin Goed” (The Group that Loves their Land of Birth). Most of them had problems remembering their own name when asked.

Yet according to The Nation and Government Media, it was spontaneously that local residents fed up with the whole few days of disturbance in Bangkok took arms against the protesters. Yeah riiiiiight.

Thanks for picking up the typo though you know I meant ding daeng.

We have relatives living in the Din Daeng flats and having spoken to them and others down there, I can assure you the groups that moved against the red shirts there were local residents, some even sympathetic to the red cause at least before the drunken fool and a bunch of others drove the tanker in, let off gas and threatened to torch it. Just think about it, if that happened where you live you wouldnt think of who was doing it or why before chasing them off or worse.

[soloman]

They would again postpone their rally if the government enforced the Internal again for their Sept 5 rally.

-- The Nation 2009-08-29

Easy! Every time they plan a rally the government enforces the internal Security Act.

Ipso facto problem solved!

[Maiya]

As an addition to post #27, which described the political cleverness of postponing this rally in the face of threats, the organizers of this pro-democracy movement have also indicated they will do it again if necessary.

Another brilliant political move.

By threatening draconian police and military measures which were totally out-of-proportion, in order to convey an impression that there is extreme violence associated with this pro-democracy movement, they continue to 'shoot themselves in the foot'

The rally will be postponed again next week if these threats continue.

So this creates a situation whereby the Government is being positioned and characterized as actively suppressing a political movement which represents a large majority in the country.

Not smart Soloman, not smart.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Maiya

[h90]

What isn't democratic?

An M60 tank.

Where have you seen one in the last years?

[Jingthing]

So this creates a situation whereby the Government is being positioned and characterized as actively suppressing a political movement which represents a large majority in the country.

Red shirt supporters? Large majority? No, absolutely not. Polling has shown most Thais are not pro red OR pro yellow. They want peace and progress and STABILITY without all this color silliness. You lot are indeed more violent and thuggish though, I'll give you that. It is indeed ironic that Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai has devoled into Thai's hating Thai and worse.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Jingthing

[toptuan]

What isn't democratic?

They who have guns hold the ultimate power.

In a true democracy, the military and police are servants of the civil government, not the other way around.

[h90]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Can you explain that?

What isn't democratic?

Typically in democratic countries, their leaders are elected by the entire population and they enjoy freedom of speech and right to expression (usually banning direct threats and libel/slander).

In such places also, one does not make common practice to give money directly into the hands of law enforcement and government persons for personal gain. My last trip I had to pay a police officer directly.

yes that is happening in Thailand to the same amount as in most European countries

yes that is a problem in many countries, democratic or not, but specially this government is trying to improve the situation which worsen a lot in the previous governments

So where is the problem with Democracy? Or what makes it worse than Germany, Austria or France?

[h90]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

A Thai Mussolini?

No, of course not.

Mr. T. is the Thai equivalent of Berlusconi, more or less.

Or the other way around.

Both are stinking rich and think they are above the law.

Both have not a democratic microbe in them, only the wish for unchecked power.

Both will do nearly anything to hold on to that power, or to get it (back).

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

[thaikahuna]

Everyone wants their rights and that is fine....but at what cost? The destruction of the Nation in the eyes of the world? Folks need to wake up and regrettably the mai pen lai attitude may indeed be this nation's downfall.....

[firestar]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

A Thai Mussolini?

No, of course not.

Mr. T. is the Thai equivalent of Berlusconi, more or less.

Or the other way around.

Both are stinking rich and think they are above the law.

Both have not a democratic microbe in them, only the wish for unchecked power.

Both will do nearly anything to hold on to that power, or to get it (back).

Mussolini believed the poor southern Italians were too poor and uneducated to know their own good, they needed an Elite to rule them.

Please tell what is the difference with the current Thai way of thinking?

I don't think Thaksin is the solution but between a Mussolini and a Berlusconi I know which one I would choose.

Edited August 29, 2009 by firestar

[codymckibb]

Maybe if as soon as they protest the Red Shirts weren't met by government faction sponsored "Blue shirts" or fake "Sala daeng Residents" armed with talkie walkies, metal bars and guns that charge at them it wouldn't degenerate into violence.

That's my neighborhood, and I saw it first-hand. When you close off a huge city's largest traffic hub, isolate residents, and close down businesses in the area for 4 days, I think it's justified for the police or the army to do something about it. I think we all wish they had done something about it sooner.

I talked to a city bus driver who was hijacked, I saw how they barricaded my entire main street and Victory Circle, destroyed public property, set fire to the buses. Then when law enforcement showed up, they somehow had gas bombs and molotov cocktails ready to go. You do the math, does it sound like a peaceful demonstration?

[hammered]

Is Thailand still advertising itself as a democracy? What a joke. But the idea that the cronies who run Thailand have anything to do with democratic rule has always been laughable.

Agreed, it isn't a real democracy here. However, surrendering to a red mob who want to install a latter day Thai Mussolini is another step in the wrong direction.

A Thai Mussolini?

No, of course not.

Mr. T. is the Thai equivalent of Berlusconi, more or less.

Or the other way around.

Both are stinking rich and think they are above the law.

Both have not a democratic microbe in them, only the wish for unchecked power.

Both will do nearly anything to hold on to that power, or to get it (back).

Berlusconi didn't order the murder of 3000 people, so he does not deserve to be compared with Thaksin.

That does somewhat put Thaksin into a completely different league.

[Jingthing]

No, with Mussolini, he was the total dictator. Just like many of us believe is Thaksin's aim.

He also cleverly purged the press of all non-believers, the same as Thaksin was doing. Anyone who saw how Thaksin behaved when he was in power and actually believes he is a force for democracy is simply badly informed.

Mussolini wiki:

The law codes of the parliamentary system were rewritten under Mussolini. All teachers in schools and universities had to swear an oath to defend the fascist regime. Newspaper editors were all personally chosen by Mussolini and no one who did not possess a certificate of approval from the fascist party could practice journalism. These certificates were issued in secret; Mussolini thus skillfully created the illusion of a "free press".

Edited August 29, 2009 by Jingthing