How Many Of Thailand's Prime Ministers Were/are Of Chinese Decent?

[Heng]

My fiancee's father changed their Chinese surname to a Thai one back in teh seventies because as a recent law graduate it was easier to get work with a Thai surname back then.

Plenty of folks also never changed their Chinese surname. For others, they just merged their Chinese names into Thai names, but not really adopting a Thai name. It's a common but incorrect assumption that it was a universal mandate. The powers that were might have wanted it, but in practice (as is the case nowadays), intent and application of the law is rarely ever one and the same.

It wasn't mandated. He just felt it would be advantageous.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to your fiancee's father, I was referring to the common assumption that the encouraged name change 100 years ago was just that... encouraged, not universally required.

[LaoPo]

I dun know what you are trying to infer but most Thais have at least some Chinese ethnicity in their bloodlines. The very first king of Thailand was of Chinese ancestry and even the present King has chinese blood

I don't know, but according to the CIA World Fact book:

"About 75% of the population is ethnically Thai, 14% is of Chinese origin, and 3% is ethnically Malay;^[3]"

I guess it depends how far back you want to go, 50,000 years or more?

No, it's up to you to answer that last question since you started this topic and you asked how many of PM"s were of Chinese descent.

You, in your last sentence of the OP, wrote:

"Things are starting to make a whole lot of sense here. I can see the pattern. Anyone else see it too? "

You have to explain what you mean by that sentence and questions.

WHAT pattern do you see ? and if you can prove it, what does it mean ?

The CIA* facts don't say anything about the number of merchants, members of the Royal family, PM's, Ministers and businessmen/women with Chinese forefathers; it just states that a certain percentage -14%- is of Chinese origin but it doesn't say if these Chinese are first-, 2nd or 3rd generation Chinese.

* CIA: the world factbook is not accessible for some re-direct reason...

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...book/index.html

LaoPo

[EffectiveAnger]

I think this an extremely interesting subject. It has its traps and dangers, but it should be possible to stay away from racist remarks.

IIRC Sonthi is a Malay. Plenty of Chinese down that way, too.

It was not clear to me whether Prem has Chinese ancestry, but I do opine that HE is the one running the show in this country. The master of puppets as it where. Too many rumours he is/was behind the PAD and the '06 coup. Of course, discuss a certain family and people connected to it is stepping on even thinner ice.

What I find ironic is all the hubbub now about foreigner ownership of (agricultural) land in the LOS. I read somewhere that 85% of land is owned by 1% of the population. The most affluent parts of the Thai population are mostly ethnic Chinese.

The Thai culture poster is very interesting in that one of the women on the left has uncovered breasts. The woman to the right is covered. Was this normal in Siam of old? I cannot say if the dress looks Khmer.

Might it have something to do with married women or mother walk with uncovered tops or is it a class thing?

I have seen photographs in a museum (it may have been in Udon). The photograph was turn of the century and was of a government official from bangkok greeting locals some of whom were bare-breasted. At the time i was teaching at AUA and discussed it with the class. One middle-aged very conservative student accused me of making it up - one of the Thammasat students brought photographs in the following week which showed Thais walking to the market in Chiang Mai. The woman in the centre of the picture was carrying something on her head and was bare-breasted.

Here's some more information about the traditional style of dress:

"Traditional dress in Cambodia is similar to traditional dress in neighboring Laos and Thailand. Sampot is the lower garment worn by either sex. The sampot for urban lower class and peasant women is a tube-skirt (sarong) approximately one and a half meters in length with both ends sewn together and is worn wrapped around the waist and secured with a cloth belt. Women of the middle and upper classes preferred to wear the sampot chang kben on a daily basis until the beginning of the twentieth century. This rectangular piece of cloth is approximately three meters long and one meter wide and is worn by first wrapping the cloth around the waist and stretching the ends away from the body. The outstretched ends are then twisted together and pulled between the legs and toward the back. The ends are tucked into the waist at the back, and the sampot chang kben is lastly fastened with a cloth or metal belt. Women of all social strata wear the sampot chang kben on special occasions such as religious ceremonies and weddings. Men also wear the sampot chang kben, but the traditional textile patterns worn by males differ from those worn by females. Traditionally, neither women nor men wore an upper garment. However, when the French colonial presence grew in Cambodia in the late nineteenth century, both men and women began to wear upper garments." http://www.bookrags.com/research/clothing-...ambodia-ema-02/

The Apsara dancers traditionally never wore an upper garment. It's only been up until fairly recent that women began to wear upper garments in this part of the world. And it's pretty clear that it was the presence of Westerners who caused a change with regards to the wearing of traditional clothing and style. In Thailand, the change came later than the other colonialized neighbors. And that change obviously became apparent with the prime minister, as previously mentioned.

There's a lot to be said about the power of a prime minister in Thailand. I mean for one to cause such a drastic change in something as basic and fundamental as traditional dress (that has lasted for over a thousand years) to something almost completely Western it's very telling. And these days, the locals don't even remember what real traditional dress was or would look like. What's worse, most of them don't even care.

[LaoPo]

Here's some more information about the traditional style of dress:

"Traditional dress in Cambodia is similar to traditional dress in neighboring Laos and Thailand. Sampot is the lower garment worn by either sex. The sampot for urban lower class and peasant women is a tube-skirt (sarong) approximately one and a half meters in length with both ends sewn together and is worn wrapped around the waist and secured with a cloth belt. Women of the middle and upper classes preferred to wear the sampot chang kben on a daily basis until the beginning of the twentieth century. This rectangular piece of cloth is approximately three meters long and one meter wide and is worn by first wrapping the cloth around the waist and stretching the ends away from the body. The outstretched ends are then twisted together and pulled between the legs and toward the back. The ends are tucked into the waist at the back, and the sampot chang kben is lastly fastened with a cloth or metal belt. Women of all social strata wear the sampot chang kben on special occasions such as religious ceremonies and weddings. Men also wear the sampot chang kben, but the traditional textile patterns worn by males differ from those worn by females.

EffectiveAnger:

Was it you who opened a topic:

How Many Of Thailand's Prime Ministers Were/are Of Chinese Decent?

.....and now you're talking about traditional dresses in Cambodia, Laos and Thailand ?

Maybe I should see an Eye Specialist tomorrow.

LaoPo

[Tinkelbell]

Some real interesting information on wikipedia about Thailand's 2nd Prime Minister Plaek Pibulsonggram

[..was Prime Minister and military dictator of Thailand from 1938 to 1944 and 1948 to 1957.

"Aimed to uplift the national spirit and moral code of the nation and instilling progressive tendencies and a newness into Thai life", a series of Cultural Mandates were issued by the government. These mandates encouraged that all Thais were to salute the flag in public places, know the new national anthem (written by Wichitwathakarn), and use the Thai language, not regional dialects. People were encouraged to adopt western attire, as opposed to the traditional dress of Thai men and women. In Pibulsonggram's perspective, these policies were necessary for Thailand to change the minds of foreigners that Thailand was an undeveloped and barbaric country. In the interest in progressivism, Thailand needed to be recognised by foreigners as a civilized and modernized country.

In 1939, Pibulsonggram changed the country's name from Siam to Thailand. In 1941, in the midst of World War II, he decreed January 1 the official start of the new year instead of the traditional April 13. On 5 August 1941, Thailand joined a group of nations that recognized the puppet state of Manchukuo.

His administration also encouraged economic nationalism, in which the Thai people were to purchase as many Thai products as possible and therefore destroy the Chinese proportion in markets. Anti-Chinese policies were imposed. In a speech in 1938, Luang Wichitwathakan compared the Chinese in Siam to the Jews in Germany.

...

Pibulsonggram's anti-Chinese campaign was resumed, with the government restricting Chinese immigration and undertaking various measures to restrict economic domination of the Thai market by those of Chinese descent. Chinese schools and associations were once again shut down.

Thanks for this well document about Field Marshal Pleak Pibulsongkarm.

My elderly mother used to tell the story about our chinese family neighbor who use to be very wealthy in Lopburi province where they owned rice mills, ice factory, log mill, wet market etc.

Then one day, PM Pleak decided since Lopburi is a soldier town, it's too dangerous to have too many chineses live close by, so the gov't ordered all the chineses move out of Lopburi within 3 days. Take whatever they could carry with them. They had to leave the bulks of their business behind. No money paid from the Thai gov't for compensation their losts.

This was part of PM Pleak's legancy that didn't sit well with the old chinese from Lopburi.

[EffectiveAnger]

LaoPo, maybe it's not your eyes that are the problem. You seem to have cut out the most important parts of my post and that's what ties into part of the 'pattern' I'm getting at. Please have patience and try not to miss the important points. Some people here are seeing it too it, others maybe not and perhaps never will.

[LaoPo]

LaoPo, maybe it's not your eyes that are the problem. You seem to have cut out the most important parts of my post and that's what ties into part of the 'pattern' I'm getting at. Please have patience and try not to miss the important points. Some people here are seeing it too it, others maybe not and perhaps never will.

Well, if you find it important to mention that "upper garments" were installed (covering breasts for male/female) under the influence of a certain Thai PM, I would like to know if that came because of the influence of a Thai/Thai PM or a Thai/Chinese PM; very interesting.

Maybe it was under the influence of someone who read a book about the bare-breasted upper class Ladies during the Renaissance courts of Louis' Quatorze, Quinze and Seize in France; lower classed serving maids had to cover their breasts!.....o-la-la...après moi, le déluge

The plot is going to be full of suspense...

But I still fail to see what your point is whether a(ny) Thai PM has Chinese blood or not.

Will you tell us ?

LaoPo

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Reference to His Majesty deleted.

[cdnvic]

If you don't see the point of the thread go elsewhere and stop obsessing over it here. Leave the thread to those who find it interesting rather than ruining it with your complaining.

[teatree]

I think the OP's post is interesting and informative. It highlights in yet another way how the Chinese have such influence within this country from the late 1800s onwards. Some go as far as to say Thailand was unofficially colonised. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, but it does seem to look as though a "dominant" race of immigrants came, multiplied, stayed and went to the top in financial, social and political terms. The evidence of this is all around. Nothing racist, just observations but the institutions where the Chinese gene is curiously less apparent are the police and military, but even then in the top echelons it may be a different story.

As friend of mine once put it, a couple of hundred years ago the Thais were lounging around under the shade of some trees eating some fruit when the Chinese marched in and got to work.

[MiG16]

It's a common but incorrect assumption that it was a universal mandate. The powers that were might have wanted it, but in practice (as is the case nowadays), intent and application of the law is rarely ever one and the same.

Heng, I thought it WAS mandated at one point - perhaps during one of the Field Marshall's time?

all born in Thailand must adopt Thai names?

just not sure whether it applied only to first name, but not last name......

havent done my research, but just from recollection..............

by the way .... Chapter 15, Nation Building, Ethnicity and Politics from the South East Asian HandBook (Patrick Heenan, Monique Lamontagne) might be of interest to those that would like to learn a bit more about Ethnicity movements in the region?

Chapter 4 is on Thailand.

not the best link, but hopefully it works: http://books.google.com/books?id=0poEk0NaK...;q=&f=false

[doggie888888]

Assuming there has been no objections (based on ethnicity alone) to persons of Chinese ethnicity taking the PMship, then is it fair to say that the Chinese have integrated well into Thailand? Contrast this to Malaysia and Indonesia...it does say something positive about Thailand, doesn't it?

[Scott]

The topic is interesting--not just about Prime Ministers, but about people and societies in general. The affect of ethnicity on the country is based on two things. First is how people self-identify themselves. The second is how the community at large identifies them. There is then an interaction based on these two factors. This often results in some type of tension and differentiation between groups.

I doubt that either group is better/worse than the other, but they are very different and their cultures are very different.

Another factor which needs to be taken into consideration is the particular type of person who wishes to or is willing to leave their country of origin. These people may be significantly different than the people who don't leave.

The Chinese have made their mark on a lot of countries with varying degrees of acceptance. One difference with the Chinese seems to be the ability to hold on to their own culture, language and traditions longer than many other groups. I am not sure why that is, but it seems that way.

[ferd54]

The Thais are descendants of the Chinese in any event, with present-day southern Yunnan (Sipsongpanna) considered one of their homelands:

“The ancestors of the Thai people began to move into modern Thailand from southern China between the 7th to 13th centuries. In 1351, a unified Thai kingdom known as Ayutthaya — after its capital city — was created by a Thai kingdom, and despite intermittent warfare with the Cambodians and the Burmese, Ayutthaya flourished for more than four hundred years.”

The Chinese who play such a dominant role in Thailand today are relatively new arrivals from a different region – the southeast coast – from Fujian and Guangdong provinces. They are mostly Teochui or Hakka, which have their own dialects. The Hakka have been migrating for 2,000 years from central China to coastal areas, then onto ships and around SE Asia and further. The Teochui are noted business people from Swatow (Shantou) who have much in common with their Cantonese cousins in Hong Kong.

Another interesting story is Chin Sophonpanich, founder of Bangkok Bank (from Wikipedia):

Chin was born to a Chinese immigrant father from Shantou, who was a sawmill clerk, and a Thai mother in Thonburi, Bangkok, although some sources stated otherwise that he was born in Shantou before he migrated to Thailand. At five years old, Chin was sent back to China for education, and upon returning to Thailand he took up his first job as a manual labourer upon returning to Thailand at 17.

In 1944, Chin founded the Bangkok Bank, which started off with only two shophouses. The bank later expanded and diversified its branches into Hong Kong, and Chin lived in Hong Kong from 1957 onwards when Thailand came under the rule of Sarit Thanarat, after he fell out of favour with the former dictator.

By 1972, the bank was listed on the Hong Kong stock exchange.

Chin died at the age of 78 in 1988. He had two wives. With his first wife, Lau Kwei Ying, he had two sons, Rabin Sophonpanich and Chatri Sophonpanich. With his second wife, Boonsri, he had seven children, including Chote Sophonpanich and the Khunying Chodchoi Sophonpanich.

Chatri Sophonpanich served as president of the Bangkok Bank from 1980 to 1992, and his son, Chartsiri Sophonpanich, has been president since 1994.

Rabin Sophonpanich (also known as Robin Chan) has since relocated to Hong Kong with his family, and his son, Bernard Chan later became a local legislator and its Executive Council member.

Chin's daughter-in-law, the Khunying Kalaya Sophonpanich, wife of Chote Sophonpanich, is currently serving as the Thai Democrat Party's Minister of Science and Technology. On 23 February 2009, she presided over the opening ceremony of the 2008 IEEE International Conference on Robotics and Biomimetics, ROBIO 2008, held in Bangkok, Thailand.

[Meridian007]

Interesting topic! I remember there was an article in the newspaper a couple of years ago that discussed the work of a prominent Thai anthropologist who was attempting to find an answer to the question "What does it mean to be truly Thai?". His research became controversial after he stated that it was impossible to say what was truly Thai from a genetic, ethnic, or cultural viewpoint. I haven't heard anything about him since (and I couldn't find out more online at the time), but I'd like to know more about his studies. I wish I could remember his name...

[cdnvic]

The Chinese have made their mark on a lot of countries with varying degrees of acceptance. One difference with the Chinese seems to be the ability to hold on to their own culture, language and traditions longer than many other groups. I am not sure why that is, but it seems that way.

This may be what helps them avoid backlash. By keeping to themselves they don't threaten to undermine the "native" culture, yet they still contribute greatly to the economy of the whole community.

[highchol]

contribute.

[Heng]

As friend of mine once put it, a couple of hundred years ago the Thais were lounging around under the shade of some trees eating some fruit when the Chinese marched in and got to work.

Another popular one is that they were all standing around pointing at the moon, etc. before that.

[Heng]

It's a common but incorrect assumption that it was a universal mandate. The powers that were might have wanted it, but in practice (as is the case nowadays), intent and application of the law is rarely ever one and the same.

Heng, I thought it WAS mandated at one point - perhaps during one of the Field Marshall's time?

all born in Thailand must adopt Thai names?

just not sure whether it applied only to first name, but not last name......

Mandated indeed, just not a universal enforced mandate is what I was trying to say. There are hundreds of thousands who have had the last names of Sae + family name since getting off their respective boats (although yes, there are millions more who are descendants of those who opted for the name change).

[EffectiveAnger]

The Chinese have made their mark on a lot of countries with varying degrees of acceptance. One difference with the Chinese seems to be the ability to hold on to their own culture, language and traditions longer than many other groups. I am not sure why that is, but it seems that way.

This may be what helps them avoid backlash. By keeping to themselves they don't threaten to undermine the "native" culture, yet they still contribute greatly to the economy of the whole community.

Anyone paying close attention now should take a real close look at this link

http://www.griffith.edu.au/ins/collections/pdf/greyareas.pdf and start reading from page 13 down. Then, you start getting a clearer picture of the whole situation in Thailand concerning the Chinese Triads and politics in Siam.

[ferd54]

Anyone paying close attention now should take a real close look at this link

http://www.griffith.edu.au/ins/collections/pdf/greyareas.pdf and start reading from page 13 down. Then, you start getting a clearer picture of the whole situation in Thailand concerning the Chinese Triads and politics in Siam.

That was very interesting, then reading on to modern times, there is this from the above cited document:

Hard as it may be to believe it, more than 60% of the ministers in

the government of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra could not be

considered as original Thai or half-Chinese (ie they should be considered fully Chinese).

(Then lists a bunch of names)

Not only that, but some of them were imprisoned or stayed in the jungle as former (Chinese communist influenced) student leaders before. (Then lists a bunch of names)

[bangon04]

The topic is interesting--not just about Prime Ministers, but about people and societies in general. The affect of ethnicity on the country is based on two things. First is how people self-identify themselves. The second is how the community at large identifies them. There is then an interaction based on these two factors. This often results in some type of tension and differentiation between groups.

I doubt that either group is better/worse than the other, but they are very different and their cultures are very different.

Interesting thread.

Often a Thai will include the "whiteness" of skin as a defining attribute of rich and/or successful people. This is an overtly racist perspective but matter-of-fact in Thai society.

It has been pointed out by previous posters that only 14% of the population is ethnically Chinese, and 1% of the population controls most of the wealth. So can statistics confirm that ethnic Chinese have a disproportionate control of Thailand's wealth, and does it matter? Do ethnic Thais resent the Chinese for their success or do they aspire to be equally successful? Or does the system which has now evolved load the dice more in favour of those already in power? It seems so. Is it worth resisting? Up to the Thais.

I have read that the fourth and fifth kings felt it necessary to import a chinese merchant and bureaucratic class for the improvement of Siam. Does this imply that without it, Thailand's progress would have been slower? Good thing or bad thing? Once established, the "import" has flourished.

As other posters have pointed out already, there are several examples of asian nations imposing restrictions on Chinese ethnicity eg Malaysia / Indonesia etc to curb their success and influence. Thailand has also had its moments too.

Another point made before is the ownership of land and other assets. Ownership and control by attrition . Must be better than war, right?

This is a rich topic for discussion. Maybe the PC crowd can hold back with their trump "racist" card a little longer.....

[Hawaiian]

The Chinese have made their mark on a lot of countries with varying degrees of acceptance. One difference with the Chinese seems to be the ability to hold on to their own culture, language and traditions longer than many other groups. I am not sure why that is, but it seems that way.

This may be what helps them avoid backlash. By keeping to themselves they don't threaten to undermine the "native" culture, yet they still contribute greatly to the economy of the whole community.

Anyone paying close attention now should take a real close look at this link

http://www.griffith.edu.au/ins/collections/pdf/greyareas.pdf and start reading from page 13 down. Then, you start getting a clearer picture of the whole situation in Thailand concerning the Chinese Triads and politics in Siam.

Most scholars of Chinese history are quite familiar about the involvement of overseas Chinese in Triads. As mentioned, they existed in Hawaii in the early 1900's. While they were involved in the illicit trades, they also provided humanitarian service for the early Chinese immigrants. Although I knew that Sun Yat-sen used Hawaii as a home base, I did not know he was also in Thailand to raise money for his cause.

If you read what Effective Anger has suggested, you will see what this thread is supposed to be about. Most people in Thailand don't want to talk about it because "it's something you don't talk about." As a history buff I found it quite informative.

[ferd54]

Some unrelated thoughts:

I have always thought it was exceedingly clever -- and wrong -- that foreigners (Chinese) "become Thai" then work their way to the top echelons of power and make laws banning foreigners from ownership in Thailand.

As far as I can tell, the Chinese consider the Thai to be a subsidiary Chinese ethnic minority group (which in many ways they are).

Thailand is about the size of a good-sized province of China.

[CaptainNemo]

I'm wondering why all foreigners in Thailand are so concerned with race? Most people I know don't care the race of another person. Is race important in other countries e.g USA and negro/white race?

Race and religion will always be important issues, wherever in the world.

All the politically correctness cannot take that away.

I know!

Aye. Every schoolboy knows that only us "whiteys" are "racist", and every other tint and hue and phenotype can't be.

I remember that from uni where a Malaysian-Thai said that "we" didn't have any culture - only (by implication) every other ethnic group under the sun did.

I'm waiting for the "Chinese are the lost tribe of israel" thread...

The OP said there was a point to this question - what is it? You want to have a grumble about the Chinese? Try Japan, you'll get a lot more airtime than you will in Thailand.

[bangon04]

Some unrelated thoughts:

I have always thought it was exceedingly clever -- and wrong -- that foreigners (Chinese) "become Thai" then work their way to the top echelons of power and make laws banning foreigners from ownership in Thailand.

As far as I can tell, the Chinese consider the Thai to be a subsidiary Chinese ethnic minority group (which in many ways they are).

Thailand is about the size of a good-sized province of China.

But Thailand IS a province of china, isn't it?

[EvilDrSomkid]

Some unrelated thoughts:

I have always thought it was exceedingly clever -- and wrong -- that foreigners (Chinese) "become Thai" then work their way to the top echelons of power and make laws banning foreigners from ownership in Thailand.

As far as I can tell, the Chinese consider the Thai to be a subsidiary Chinese ethnic minority group (which in many ways they are).

Thailand is about the size of a good-sized province of China.

I was waiting for you to chime in here after reading your other topic on comparing living in CHN and TH. I found it quite informative and this topic, too. I recently read about the origin of Taiwan and the Wiki page stated that many mainland Chinese who fled to Taiwan were Hakka. There was also mention of Hakka Chinese migrating south in to present day Thailand.

The original people in Thailand were called Tai. Tai wan. Interesting. There must be quite some genealogical links between the two countries.

[EvilDrSomkid]

Some unrelated thoughts:

I have always thought it was exceedingly clever -- and wrong -- that foreigners (Chinese) "become Thai" then work their way to the top echelons of power and make laws banning foreigners from ownership in Thailand.

As far as I can tell, the Chinese consider the Thai to be a subsidiary Chinese ethnic minority group (which in many ways they are).

Thailand is about the size of a good-sized province of China.

But Thailand IS a province of china, isn't it?

Of course.

The Chinese immigrants move in, usually because they are invited, and set up businesses. Then, they take over the burocracy, then the political power positions. This what they do. This is more an observation on their work ethic than criticism.

As was observed in the CHN-TH topic, many Chinese are workaholics. It has to do with their Confucianist upbringing, which has hard, selfless work as a virtue. Or so I have read.

So it is not surprising that most or all Thai PMs are ethnic Chinese. They float to the top.

[Heng]

I have always thought it was exceedingly clever -- and wrong -- that foreigners (Chinese) "become Thai" then work their way to the top echelons of power and make laws banning foreigners from ownership in Thailand.

Yeah and so original too. Imagine coming to power and then using that power for your own benefit. No one does that! Genius.

[Chunkton]

The Chinese run Thailand, own the factories, run the government etc. My ex wife was half Chinese, after meeting various people with her there is no doubt more doors open if you have Chinese blood. Always found the Chinese Thai very pleasant, seemed to have no problems with me, and I have none with them. If a race is so lazy to let harder working foreigners take over every thing due to their indolence serves them right.