Poor Mouthing Restaurant Owners

[ScubaBuddha]

You are mistaken Kevin, it is not a free world, nor is it a free country. Thailand has some of the strictest libel and slander laws. Many people get caught up in this when they bring thier "this is a free world" attitudes from home to psuedo-democratic, developing, second and third world countries. Generallly slander and libel is defined as spreading false information which damages the reputation of another person, company, or orginization. In Thailand, however, there is lots of case law in which the courts have decided that even true information that is damaging can be punished for. Your risk to take.

<snipola>

Nah, I'm not mistaken. It's a free world alright and I doubt we will see restaurant owners issuing libel suits against dissatisfied customers any time soon. Frankly I think it is all pretty silly but I note you have a personal relationship with the aggrieved owner so perhaps it's explained by that. I expect he'll buy you a drink when you're there next time.

Bottom line: IMHO, if you have a complaint, deal with it in whatever way suits you, not the person you are complaining about, unless you have some reason to retain a good relationship, in which case he probably should have looked after you better in the first place(?). Also IMHO, the guy who complained has nothing whatever to feel bad about, if there was a justified complaint then it's the owner who should feel bad, and he shouldn't be muttering about it on any bulletin board, he should have dealt with it directly and in a professional manner with the complainer. But then, as I said, its a free world.

Libel... dear oh dear oh dear. Anyone care for a little celery with their over-reaction?

If by personal relationship you mean I eat there a couple times a month and have spoke with Don an about half a dozen occasions over the years when he does his rounds, then yes I guess I do. Actually, Don doesn't even know my name (in Thaivisa or in real life) so I doubt he will be buying me drinks anytime soon.

Libel is simply slander in written form. Not sure what your on about with the over reaction comment, as I was not "reacting" to anything. I was using an example to illustrate my point. How could I be "reacting" when I have no idea what motivated Don start this topic in the first place, but it sounded like a personal attack concerning him and his business or businesses. That may very well be considered slander. If you track Thai news at all you would know that there are suits being thrown around all the time in Thailand for, to use your word, "silly" things.

But instead of trying to make a salient point, I guess it's better I just come up with a cleverly worded insult, yeah?

Edited September 4, 2009 by Scubabuddha

[JiveTalker]

For those who enjoy poor mouthing restaurant owners why not have the courtsey to speak your complaints in person and give the owner a chance to fix your problem. Bad manners has those who complain on the forum but never bring the complaint direct to the restaurant owner. Many restaurant owners are generally on duty from 08:00 until 22:00 to welcome any constructive comments you might have or to correct a situation quickly.

There are also many restaurants that are allowed to be run by people who could care less about their customers and these should be dealt with.

I'd rather share my experiences with like minded people on the net than confront a possibly aggresive restaurant manager. It's what the internet was invented for. Ok, the internet was invented for people to share naughty pictures, but I digress. As a manager of a restaurant you should never let things get personal, just take the criticism as useful customer feedback you can work with and move on.

Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win it's still retarded.

Not my quote, and pretty unPC, but you get the point.

[ScubaBuddha]

Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win it's still retarded.

LMAO! Thats some funny shit! It feels that way sometimes!!

[FarangRed]

I have also been using Don's for 10 years when in the old place up the road and to this day he dont know my name.

[69690jay]

WOOHOO Quote :Anyone who thinks complaining to a restaurant manager in phuket is going to be anything other than a waste of time, and make you even more frustrated, is kidding themselves. The only option. as many people have said, is to vote with you feet, and then share your experience with others.

I don't agree with you there.

If the owner or manager is available and they have any sense of manger or owner skills they will speak to you with open ears and respond neutrally and within their means do the best they can to resolve your issues, unless your one of the many who have nothing to complain about but complain complain complain.

Success in the restaurant business in Thailand is more of a challenge than in the west with most issues arising from staff.

Once the owner/manager leaves the building many staff tend to go into 'mai care" mode. Unless the owner is in the kitchen or has a cook/chef that oversees the quality control expected by westerners the kitchen will no longer be the heart of the business, it will be the demise.

On the servers side it is much the same story.

With language barriers not just Eng to Thai but all other foreign languages and accents that confuse even the better spoken Thais as well as myself I am a native English speaker and I to struggle to understand heavy accented Scotsman or east Londoner.. lol

WOOHOO prefers to walk out and then rave about the 'bad experience at so and so establishment'. I hear more people complaining about bad meals than complimenting good meals, when someone has a bad meal at a place that normally serves a good meal the chinwagging really gets going.

I also do tend to get upset when i expect the meal to be the same as the last and it's not. I also tend to do as someone else mentioned in order to not spoil the evening avoid a 'confruntation' and say nothing. This is where a comments card on the table comes into play. Quite common in america and Canada in the restaurant chain type establishments. Maybe it helps.

Only if the meal can not be consumed will i take it up the server or the 'manager'. Yes bleeding pork chops or frozen fillet steaks will get sent back. Again the kitchens have to have a real cook/chef controlling everything that goes out.

Here is a couple examples of difficulty with staff: I manage a restaurant here in the jungles of Rawai; recently I 'lost' my morning server and after a week or so my wife who covered for her as we could not find a replacement who could speak a 'little bit of tinglish'. 4 regular customers mentioned how they were glad the previous server was gone as they had almost stopped coming due to her rude behavior and lack of attention.

Low season/summer season we downsize and in doing so we only have one cook as high season approaches we are testing potential second cooks. Last week a lady who spoke good English and said she cooks everything very good came in for an interview, after a short interview i told her to show up the next morning for a trial. She showed up on time a good sign, we test cooks with Thai food first and then western. Test Thai food generally means my wife and I will order three dishes: Tom yam talay, fried mix veggies, cashew nut chicken. I am sorry to say but after 48 minutes the 'food arrived' we tasted but did not need to as a visual inspection told us both that she was not a cook.

In four years we have gone through too many staff. Unbearably too many! Most western restaurant owners here in Thailand will agree with that.

I know that if my wife and I are present customers increase tenfold. If we are not here business all but stops.

As Don knows customer relations is an essential key to success. My experience with Dons hospitality has always been enjoyable, he has done what many could not achieve without the determination and hands on approach he uses.

These web based forums may effect him but not in the long run, it is the happy customer who returns, bad mouthing/reviews fade away pretty quick unless its warranted and does not get addressed.

Bon appetite, enjoy your meal, hows everything this evening? is there anything else we can get you? would you like to see the dessert tray? Can i top up your coffee? Would you like another drink? please come again,

SAWASDEE KRAP

Jay

[rgs2001uk]

maa mai dek will soon get their attention.

I doubt it, dont even know what you are trying to say, maa nee na, per chance?

Wouldnt expect a child to be working in a retauarant, dont know how old you are, could you get away with using nong?

[petercallen]

Reading some of the posts here i suggest you read my original posts under (Sunday roast in chalong) it is a honest impartial post, i have nothing against don and i will continue to post the same way, some people need to get there act together. we are going to happy days bar and restaurant tommorow which i have only had good reports about, after we have had a meal there i will do a post about it. I have allways found when you hire staff you get what you pay for, if you only pay a minimum wage dont expect your staff to go out of there way for you in Thailand. Better wages and bonuses will keep your staff happy and ensure they look after your customers which will keep you happy. Thailand is a democracy and i am entitled to my own honest impartial apinion.

[steelepulse]

I'd like to see this forum not have a post/review every time a poster eats some where. We already have a thread about "Best restaurants in Phuket". Isn't that the place to post your review of some restaurant you like?

Surely we don't want threads like " Best Monday Tom Yam" "Best Tuesday Fried Rice", "Best Wednesday Roast Beef". "Best Thursday Vegetarian Dish" etc.

Por leowwwwwww..........................

[LivinginKata]

I have allways found when you hire staff you get what you pay for, if you only pay a minimum wage dont expect your staff to go out of there way for you in Thailand. Better wages and bonuses will keep your staff happy and ensure they look after your customers which will keep you happy.

From what I've heard Don really looks after his staff and gives them all sorts of benefits that many other employers don't offer, but sadly his staff just seem to take the 'mai pen rai' attitude.

On the one only occasion that I complained to Don about no food being available on the buffet trays he just blamed the staff for not preparing enough food. I know that Don tries hard to satisfy his customers, but his staff don't seem to share his ambitions.

[KarenBravo]

Don is a true workaholic.

The consensus among many expats is that because of his other restaurants, farms and food supply business, it just doesn't leave enough time for him to run the restaurant as it used to be run.

When Don first opened, there really wasn't that many restaurants serving western food in the area. He was always present and the food was good and decently priced. He was a big fish in a small pond.

What with more restaurants opening up in the area he has increased competition. This, coupled with deteriorating quality of the food in his own restaurant over the years due to his lack of time, has driven away many of his regular customers (I include myself).

[katabeachbum]

Don is a true workaholic.

The consensus among many expats is that because of his other restaurants, farms and food supply business, it just doesn't leave enough time for him to run the restaurant as it used to be run.

When Don first opened, there really wasn't that many restaurants serving western food in the area. He was always present and the food was good and decently priced. He was a big fish in a small pond.

What with more restaurants opening up in the area he has increased competition. This, coupled with deteriorating quality of the food in his own restaurant over the years due to his lack of time, has driven away many of his regular customers (I include myself).

sadly second that.

used to eat at Dons couple of times a week some years ago. Without Don beeing present level of service and food has couple of laste years sometimes been below par. Interesting to see even how the quality of a steak can be below par just because the owner is away.

I find it ok to discuss such experiences on internett, espesially since the owner is not present to recieve feedback from customers

[KevinBloodyWilson]

If by personal relationship you mean I eat there a couple times a month and have spoke with Don an about half a dozen occasions over the years when he does his rounds, then yes I guess I do. Actually, Don doesn't even know my name (in Thaivisa or in real life) so I doubt he will be buying me drinks anytime soon.

Libel is simply slander in written form. Not sure what your on about with the over reaction comment, as I was not "reacting" to anything. I was using an example to illustrate my point. How could I be "reacting" when I have no idea what motivated Don start this topic in the first place, but it sounded like a personal attack concerning him and his business or businesses. That may very well be considered slander. If you track Thai news at all you would know that there are suits being thrown around all the time in Thailand for, to use your word, "silly" things.

But instead of trying to make a salient point, I guess it's better I just come up with a cleverly worded insult, yeah?

*shrug*

I already made the salient point, you rejected it in a defensive and sniffy way so I responded - reasonably enough. But lets not split hairs, otherwise I may need point out that libel is the generic term for defamation, of which slander is a spoken form, I was right to refer to libel.

Sorry you won't be getting that drink though.

[ScubaBuddha]

I already made the salient point, you rejected it in a defensive and sniffy way so I responded - reasonably enough. But lets not split hairs, otherwise I may need point out that libel is the generic term for defamation, of which slander is a spoken form, I was right to refer to libel.

Sorry you won't be getting that drink though.

I don't think I was being defensive or sniffy. I was simply, and "reasonably" stating what I understand to be the state of slander and libel in Thailand. Most people don't realize how ubsurd the laws are here. I think you may have inserted emotion into my statements that wasn't there, or taken it personally, which it wasn't intended. It appears that way, what with the "celery" comment.

And since were splitting hairs, I wasn't saying libel was the wrong word to use, I just didn't understand what you meant by "over reaction." I googled libel, and most places say: "use of print or pictures to harm someone's reputation" which is what I said, but one also said under definition two: To publish a libel about a person" Which is more what you said. Subtle difference. So I will accept we are both right there. Anyway, as you said it's split hairs, who cares really. Words seem to be redefined with-in Thai law all the time.

[Somtamnication]

Splitting hairs, everyone. Splitting hairs...

[bubblegum]

Restaurant critics do not make themselves know to the owner/manager in order to be sure they do not get extra special attention. They write their review afterwards and it can be very bad indeed. Are you saying they should change their way of working? Saying this I have made a comment (not complain) about the state the toilets were (are) in and have not seen it change.

[geriatrickid]

I'm one of those people that votes with my feet unless I have had a longstanding relationship with a place. I don't think the typical "owner" would care if I said anything, so just not worth the aggravation.

Reasonable people that are "regulars" will accept that one can have a bad meal, because not every piece of meat or fish might be good, even though it might have looked good in the kitchen. That's life.

Unfortunately, there are some places that are set up on the basis of grabbing whatever cash they can. The seafood slop shops on at Rat-U come to mind. Talking to the owner is a waste of time, since quality and attracting regulars isn't in the business model. On the other hand, a place like the Islander on soi patong resort has a different business model and there I'd say something if I was peeved. At the Islander, the chubby lady sometimes will come out after I eat my lunch and will ask if it was ok. She means it and isn't just saying it to humour that fat farang that stuffed his face.

I've had some really bad meals in the 3-5,000 baht range and complaining is an exercise in futility because the manager can't do anything about it. One night I was served a bottle of wine with a cork that had visibly rotted. Rotten corks are normal and it is not unusual to have a bad bottle of wine. The standard is to replace the bottle and the restaurant sends it back to the distributor for a credit. I guess wine distribution doesn't work the same way in Thailand so a restaurant is not going to do anything about a bad bottle of wine without an argument. Then again the typical server isn't going to understand that cork can rot or that the loss of the seal ruins the wine. I don't think I'm alone in having this experience, but after awhile you learn that ordering a bottle of wine at dinner is not smart.

[mikebike]

Libel... dear oh dear oh dear. Anyone care for a little celery with their over-reaction?

Although suing a restaurant guest would seem over the top if the owner is Thai and wants to screw you as a patron chances are Thai libel law would support his action...

I have allways found when you hire staff you get what you pay for, if you only pay a minimum wage dont expect your staff to go out of there way for you in Thailand. Better wages and bonuses will keep your staff happy and ensure they look after your customers which will keep you happy.

:D That's rich. Remuneration has little if anything to do with the competency/loyalty of Thai staff.

[stuandchris]

I think you mean bad mouthing not poor, uk version it is anyway.

[KarenBravo]

Although suing a restaurant guest would seem over the top if the owner is Thai and wants to screw you as a patron chances are Thai libel law would support his action...

If this is true, then all published restaurant reviews in Thailand that could be construed as negative, are illegal.

In fact any negative review of any business would be illegal.

[ScubaBuddha]

Although suing a restaurant guest would seem over the top if the owner is Thai and wants to screw you as a patron chances are Thai libel law would support his action...

If this is true, then all published restaurant reviews in Thailand that could be construed as negative, are illegal.

In fact any negative review of any business would be illegal.

Yeah, lots of things can seem "Over the top" here in Thailand.

If you changed "would" to "could" you would be more accurate. I know you all think this whole thing is silly, and I agree, but that is the state of things here in Thailand, as ridiculous as they may seem.

And here is what George has to say about it:

It is important to realize that in Thailand nothing detrimental to any business or individual is permissible because of Thailand's strong laws against negative comments about individuals, businesses or officials. Defamation is both a civil and criminal offence in Thailand.

The final judgement can be ANY amount which the court approves, including jail time. It is in line with the perceived amount that the defamatory statements have cost the business. So, if the business claims you have cost them 2 million baht in lost business and reputation, they can then claim this in a civil suit.

Thailand is VERY active now in bringing defamation cases to the courts. With the constant battle between the governments & groups, the courts are establishing precedents that MAY NOT be in line with Western standards of free speech. These precedents WILL be applied to EVERYONE in Thailand.

Also, foreigners are just starting to realize this type of ‘strict’ law applies. We are beginning to see more and more defamation suits being brought from foreigners – and they are winning.

There is a standard of good taste that needs to be maintained. Some of the posts on Thaivisa.com definitely cross the line. It is one thing to make observations and report in a balanced fashion - but BASHING a business or “singling out” a business person is a definite no-no. All too often I see forum boards being used as a battle ground between businesses/individuals – either spamming or trashing. We have been advised to tighten our grip on this type of posting. Eventually someone is going to get pissed off enough to file a lawsuit.

This is a dilemma for us at Thaivisa, and we need to protect our members and the website from lawsuits. Please follow the forum rules is all we ask for."

Source:http://frogblog-thaidings.blogspot.com/

Edited September 7, 2009 by Scubabuddha

[Andyman]

Don is a true workaholic.

The consensus among many expats is that because of his other restaurants, farms and food supply business, it just doesn't leave enough time for him to run the restaurant as it used to be run.

When Don first opened, there really wasn't that many restaurants serving western food in the area. He was always present and the food was good and decently priced. He was a big fish in a small pond.

What with more restaurants opening up in the area he has increased competition. This, coupled with deteriorating quality of the food in his own restaurant over the years due to his lack of time, has driven away many of his regular customers (I include myself).

sadly second that.

used to eat at Dons couple of times a week some years ago. Without Don beeing present level of service and food has couple of laste years sometimes been below par. Interesting to see even how the quality of a steak can be below par just because the owner is away.

I find it ok to discuss such experiences on internett, espesially since the owner is not present to recieve feedback from customers

Sadly third that, used to enjoy going there but noticed the service going down when Don spent less time there, to the point that i dont bother anymore.

I dont see any problem in letting anyone know, via the internet either, if there wasnt a problem, there wouldnt be so many posts.