Disgusted By Ignorance

[gerrythepoet]

I am a Teacher in a school in a school in the North East, I would love as much feedback as possible on this particular scenario.

My school this year held a merit making ceremony requesting funds from all Alumni, teachers, parents and students to finance a project that would commerate 40 years of the school being in existence.

Agreed one does not usually do grand things at 40 but at 50 and 75 with regards to institutions.

The culmination of this project was the unveiling of a 1.5 million Baht building for a group of 12 headed by one of the Assistant Director's of the school.

Incidentally he will retire next year.

My concern is that when I am in my class towards the end of it a few students who are basically poor come to me with palms open saying " 100 Baht, money, give me "

I could not understand this and now it transpires that this Assistant Director went on the tannoy system asking classes to donate as much as they have to celebrate the opening of the new building, actually it is supposed to be an office with the latest gadgets, best furniture and ...

The project cost 1.5 milion but the merit ceremony raised 1.2 million, no idea how they got the 0.3 million, something got shifted in the budget!

Sometimes after years of teaching I feel people forget in their minds and in their hear why they pursued a career to be a teacher and what motivated them.

This chap will retire and I feel it is because he has not been the Director of the School that he now wants to see his name in bright lights.

Students I observed today walked past the building and listened to the Karoke and then held their heads down and walked away not saying a word to each other.

Forgive me but the days are over when one could manipulate kids their brains are alive for the Internet is in their dreams.

I want to highlight my concerns to the Director that he had a chance to really improve the school environment by giving the 58 classrooms a decent environment but things are not that easy for I am a Falang and teach in dirty dusty chalky rooms with no aircon and sometimes no electricity.

I only hope that the Educational System will not end up on the Gillotine in years to come for revolution comes when people are made aware and able to unite and stand up for what is theft of their future promise.

I need some game plan for I really do not want to resign for my wife and I teach at this school but everytime I cycle past that building I feel truly sick at the exploitation happening to the students and teachers in my school.

So the reason this is being posted for maybe someone can point me in the right direction within the Educational sytem to highlight the anger of the students and the parents for being forced by Thai tradition to never question their teachers.

[Benjie]

Start your own school.

[elkangorito]

Thailand will be forever greatful when these old dinosaurs retire & "die off" (as dinosaurs tend to do )

Thailand will never change unless this happens.

I've had some students confide in me that they are quite unhappy about "things" in Thailand. My observation is that these young Thai people now have access to "the rest of the world" via the internet & they are seeing a very different outside world.

Believe me when I say that things will change...it'll just take a bit of time. The old farts will die & the younger generation will be given a better opportunity to change things.

In the meantime, do what the "rigid" older Thais do...smile a lot & "pretend" that everything is wonderful. It'll save you a lot of heartache.

Build relationships with the students so that you can truely represent their ideals & understand their situation. Don't let the "culture" & the greed of others prevent you from doing this.

Hopefully, the phrase that Peaceblondie uses will fade into history; "...but they all drive nice cars & wear nice clothes."

[PeaceBlondie]

I hope the armed revolution never arrives....nice clothing stained by Thais killing Thais...no thanks. Wai and curse under your breath.

[Scott]

There is little you can do and probably even less that you should do. You are basically swimming upstream.

I encounter this on a very regular basis. It's a part of the fabric of Thai society and I don't think it's going to change for a very long time -- the old dinosaurs will be replaced by younger dinosaurs. Basically, try to sooth your anger and let this be a Thai thing and let them handle it on their own. How things look are important here.

Best of luck.

[Xangsamhua]

It may not be easy to accept that, as a foreigner, you are simply a guest worker in this country. Though you may be married to a Thai national and have children who are Thai nationals, as an employee you are valued simply in terms of the skills and attributes your employers value. They are not interested in your sensitivities or your beliefs about ethics and propriety. Even if they admire them, they don't see you, as an outsider, having a contribution to make to their discourse and its effects, regardless of your qualifications and experience. Your job is to implement the roles they assign to you in a cooperative manner (มีนำใจ, though with the right approach you can get some concessions).

One difference between the Thai workplace and where I come from is that, in my homeland, once you are a fellow employee you have a voice equal to others at your level in the decision-making process. You are a member of that workplace community. That is not the case for the foreigner in Thailand, regardless of how well-liked or respected you may be as a person and a teacher. You are outside or marginal to the community. You have no sakdina at all - in either the old or newer sense of the term. You are an outsider, albeit a useful one and perhaps pleasant, capable and worthy of respect.

[Bosse137]

I am not a teacher,but I live in a small Isaan village for 18 years already,so when it comes to mentality of most Thais, I do fully agree with what Scott and Xangsamhua state in their posts.The first years I tried to change some things,as I thought,for the better,but it became clear to me,that the only thing I "achieved",was to make a fool of my self..! So now I have learned to relax and care about my own business and let other people do the same,however tempting it might be sometimes to voice my opinion.Better shut up and go with the flow..

[doggie888888]

The best thing any teacher can do for a student is to teach him/her to think, question and analyse...the rest is up to them.

[femi fan]

I don't have time to write a decent reply, and will do so memory willing later on.

But meanwhile, slow down with any practical reactions you carry out beyond your immediate and current feelings on the matter! Entrenchment of ideas and status quo are powerful forces all over the world, and even more so in conservative societies like thailand, and even even more so in education here!

I've been in education nearly 20 years now, and if anyone thought it was primarly for the learners' benefit, then they'd be correct in their thinking, but unfortunately they'd also be alarmingly wrong when it comes to the reality of it all.

And i don't just mean thailand at all, it's just that, as with most things here, everything just seems more blatant.

Tread and think carefully!

[gosompoi]

All very good replies. Bosse, wise reply.

[TongueThaied]

There is so much that could be said here. Thailand for all its development falls way behind countries like Korea and Japan. Peaceblondie hopes change will not bring spilled blood, and I certainly do not wish for that. However, let me observe that A LOT OF IT was spilled in most countries that underwent radical change for the better, including Korea and Japan, both torn by massive wars, followed by heavy Western influence. Look at the French Revolution. Sometimes the road to change, sadly, is through the guillotine. At the core of Thai culture is an unwillingness to change. Here is something that came as a shock to me: Thai children are taught from birth and in the schools to NEVER ask why. They are taught that it is polite to accept and go with the flow and that it is rude to disrupt that flow with the question, "Why?" Ask your co-teachers and Thai friends about this. I was here married to a Thai teacher two years before this truth revealed itself to me. Think of the import of this. It is at the heart of every problem with the Thai educational system (students are not allowed to question teachers, teachers never question principals, etc., etc. - ask them). An aside: I asked my wife if she had ever heard of "brainstorming." Her answer surprised me, "Oh yes," she said, "the school sent us to a seminar about how to do it." Did you ever try it at school meetings? "Yes," she said. With the principal? "Oh no, she said, "we could never do that! It's only something to do with co-teachers and friends." Huh? Kind of misses the point, doesn't it? Younger people or people lower in social status cannot make suggestions for structural or program improvement to people older or higher in social status. Such behavior is not polite and is insulting to the higher up. Ideas moving up from "below" are NOT welcome. The creativity we embrace and even take for granted in the West, and which we know comes abundantly from the young, is actively suppressed here. But any change always starts with the question, "Why?" Or, "Why not?" My personal belief, and only that, is that the ban on the question "why?" is not so much a part of the culture itself, as it is an element forcefully injected into the culture by the people in and wishing to remain in power.

This is at the heart of the political situation. The inability or unwillingness to ask "Why?" is the number one obstruction on the road to political and social change - and especially, the educational system. It is at the heart of the current political situation. Change this, and everything else will follow in due course.

This aspect of the culture is driven and enforced by those that have held power for 100's of years. The 1932 "revolution" was really only a blip, a subtle shifting, a dispute between elites. Wealth controls. Those that have it all want no real change. The struggle you see today rose before, in the 70's (under the guise of the "communist threat"), but was crushed by both force and a massive propaganda campaign financed by the CIA and the United States military . The struggle was revived under Thaksin. Thaksin may have been have been a bad guy, probably was, but be that as it may, under his administration many popular populist programs, such as OTOP, were born. The word "populist" has been made a derogatory term describing "leaders" that use giveaway programs to garner votes. However, that is not the sole meaning. The OTOP program was populist as it served the "have not" masses and did garner votes, but it was not a "giveaway." It created and encouraged opportunity to better ones self and ones economic position through small enterprise. And look around; it was and is wildly successful. This sort of thing had not been encouraged prior to Thaksin. I have no illusion that Thaksin used these programs to achieve the ends of his own personal gain, but whatever the reason, people got a taste of what could be; they discovered that maybe they and their families were not stuck forever at their current stations in life. For the first time, many began to reject the idea, so actively pressed upon them, that instead of questioning "why?" they should just "be happy" with their current stations in life. They discovered that their vote could count for something, that maybe they held some power of their own. This genie has gotten out among the people and it cannot now be stuffed back into the bottle.

The current struggle for change IS the Yellow Shirt/Red Shirt struggle. "Yellow Shirts" is a euphemism for those that have everything already and want NO CHANGE. The Red Shirts are everybody else involved in the struggle -- the force for change. The Red Shirts ARE NOT about Thaksin. Thaksin is a rallying point for only some of them, but the Yellow Shirts seek to portray the Red Shirts as little more than the rag tag supporters of a criminal. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is a collection of Thaksin supporters as well as many academics, farmers, and small business people who detest Thaksin, but feel they have nowhere else to turn.

.....

Books and articles that "taint the image of Thailand and its people," by discussing such "negative subjects such as fake goods, gambling, gay performances, touts and scams, and places such as Patpong, Nana, and Khaosan Road," are routinely banned by the Thai Ministry of Culture. Ms Ladda Tangsuphachai, Director of Cultural Monitoring at the Thai Ministry of Culture, pointed out, "According to the Constitution, the press has freedom to publish. So, all we can do is to take the problematic books off the shelf." If nothing else, you've got to love the logic! The Asian Wall Street Journal has been banned at least twice for printing articles deemed distasteful.

The government also quickly shuts down websites supplying information it does not wish Thais to see. Even the prestigious "Economist" magazine has had several articles blocked. I have read many such articles, only to return a day later to find, "This Website Under Construction," which is what you get when the censors have blocked it. However, the Internet is simply too massive for quick action by the censors. Thais searching for information on the Internet often find it before the censors and quickly circulate the news among friends. As the OP pointed out, "the days are over when one could manipulate kids[;] their brains are alive for the Internet is in their dreams." This is why, this time, change will come. The only questions are when and how. One hopes it will be peaceful, but with history as a guide, that is far from assured.

Let me be clear about one thing, I and other foreigners are guests in this country. We are not allowed to participate in politics and I, in no way, get involved; I am only an observer, albeit an interested one. I have NOT written a condemnation of Thai Culture, nor have I intended any disrespect. My only criticism is against the ban on the question, "Why?" Thai culture is warm, beautiful and welcoming, as are the people who own it. I love and have great respect the Thai people and the culture; that is why I am here. I am married to a lovely and exceptionally intelligent Thai woman (who does not ask why) and have a wonderful Thai family. I wrote this solely because I thought the OP deserved to know why things are the way they are.

[hansnl]

The explanation by TongueThaied is a good one.

However, the difference between yellow and red shirts as you see it is a little simpified.

There is much more at stake.

Of course, a lot of yellow shirts don't want change, but there are very many who want change,

But definitely not the change offered by the red shirts.

And the same goes for the red shirts.

The only hope is indeed that more and more people are not afraid to ask why.

[femi fan]

Let me be clear about one thing, I and other foreigners are guests in this country. We are not allowed to participate in politics and I, in no way, get involved; I am only an observer, albeit an interested one. I have NOT written a condemnation of Thai Culture, nor have I intended any disrespect. My only criticism is against the ban on the question, "Why?" Thai culture is warm, beautiful and welcoming, as are the people who own it. I love and have great respect the Thai people and the culture; that is why I am here. I am married to a lovely and exceptionally intelligent Thai woman (who does not ask why) and have a wonderful Thai family. I wrote this solely because I thought the OP deserved to know why things are the way they are.

Enjoyed reading your post.

One or two thoughts in reaction to what you write...

Firstly, the connundrum between analysing/observing/questioning a part versus the whole. The whole is the sum of the parts. If one part is changed, then the whole is changed. Perhaps lots of the good points about thailand and her culture (and for me personally they are many) might change if a significant part is changed. What many love about this country is most likely dependent to whatever degree on the less attractive parts: make the less attractive more attractive, and perhaps the more attractive bits become less attractive...

Secondly, what development is good for a non-developed society? If the model is the US or the UK, then i'm not sure thailand should be going that way. For sure you may improve some of the parts by learning from these two countries, but the whole would become less attractive than it is now.

How to balance the freedom of the individual with the freedom for the society?

Lastly, most societies have been resistant to change, most of them are inherently conservative. That goes for the people, as much as the leaders who have cushy numbers. Evolution i think leads to long-lasting improvement more than revolution. The pressures are probably greater on thailand in dealing with change (which is inevitable, whatever anyone likes or dislikes about it) because of the time period in which such pressures are taking place, ie in a world that is fully technologically enabled, unlike during the days of the industrial revolution.

Perhaps this favours revolution rather then evolution. I prefer the latter, and as it happens have come across various thais who have learnt to ask 'why?'. They are working within their own parameters, pushing the boundaries slowly but surely. Give it time.

Meanwhile the whole that is thailand is so much more attractive than most countries in the world. Changing the parts should be done carefully to try and preserve these major attractions that this country has for living one's life in, be it farang who have settled here, or thais themselves.

Carefully and thoughtfully managing change should be the mantra. All this division into yellow and red is likely to prove a more destructive path than other paths that could easily be negotiated if wise heads prevail.

[PeaceBlondie]

Wow, lots of editing to a long post that had 99 good points. This blond pacifist does not want reform to come through Nazi and Yippun holocausts.

[femi fan]

I'd like to add that in simple terms, allowing for generalisations, the western mind is preoccupied with what's best for itself, while the thai mind seems to look at the bigger picture of society rather than just oneself. Asking 'why' may have its attributes, but perhaps within the context of thailand it is seen as something that upsets the balance of how society conducts itself in order to remain peaceful. Historically in western countries people knew their place in life, and little social movement took place. We see that to a degree here in thailand now, and perhaps this provides for a less randomly violent society?

[barky]

Xangsamhua and Tongue thaied have basically summed it all up. There's probably not much more I could reasonably add other than to provide a personal approach.

Even though ideally Thailand would benfit if it changed some of it's practices within the educational system, I just can't see anything significantly positive emerging within my lifetime, or the next generation for that matter.

The process of change will take decades simply because it's part of the 'culture' .

However, unfortunately for Thailand other countries in the world, and in particular in Asia, are not going to wait for Thailand to catch up. Thailand, educationally at least, will remain a backwater for some considerable time, maybe forever being 2nd or 3rd rate compared to more inspired, energetic societies (eg: Japan, China, Korea to name a few).

As clearly stated already, we, as barely tollerated hired hands, have absolutely no say in the matter.

However, some well intentioned westeners don't seem to get it. They continue to think they are in their own country where even the foreign hired hands are given practically equal rights as local citizens, and where voices from outside are listened to and ideas taken into consideration and given merit.

Westeners, in the main, can look at things objectively and openly and can acknowlegge of a good, common sense idea.

And, in so doing, are prepared to change the way of doing things for the betterment of it's development, people, and in this particular case, it's children.

Therefore, ultimately, over the many years I have lived in Thailand, I have come to realise the total futility of voicing an opinion (at least publicly) on almost any matter concerning Thais and Thailand. It just does not pay dividends.

Oh and for the record, I have never considered myself as a "guest" of this country as I have never received an invitation and neither the Thai government nor any Thai individual has ever given me anything. I've always paid my own way for everything (including visa) from the day I entered Thalands boarders until now. A guest is someone you invite and pay for and honour.

[TongueThaied]

Firstly, the connundrum between analysing/observing/questioning a part versus the whole. The whole is the sum of the parts. If one part is changed, then the whole is changed. Perhaps lots of the good points about thailand and her culture (and for me personally they are many) might change if a significant part is changed. What many love about this country is most likely dependent to whatever degree on the less attractive parts: make the less attractive more attractive, and perhaps the more attractive bits become less attractive...

Secondly, what development is good for a non-developed society? If the model is the US or the UK, then i'm not sure thailand should be going that way. For sure you may improve some of the parts by learning from these two countries, but the whole would become less attractive than it is now.

I struggle deeply with this in my own in my own thinking, and I have NO IDEA as to the answer or what is right. I am fortunate, in a sense, to be merely an observer. With no stake, I can be apathetic without seeming irresponsible. People innately, want more. They always want more. It is part of the Darwinian struggle for survival. Open the gates; turn the people loose; let them run free and get whatever they can. Isn't THAT freedom? Wouldn't THAT good? Because of the nature of humanity, THAT WILL get another U.S. I came from there, didn't like what it has become. So, is a benevolent dictatorship that keeps the people happy, but down on the farm better? That is the question, isn't it?

For me, personally, I hope I am old enough to have passed through the chimney by the time enough sh!t hits the fan to end my shang gra la. Most foriegners would agree that the wonderful attributes that attract us to Thailand are too many to list. However, and please don't accuse me of being crass for my honesty, affordibility is VERY high on the list for most of us. Keep in mind that "affordability" is a purely relative concept. It is the very inequity of this place that makes it affordable to Westerners. An equitable distribution of wealth in this country, by whatever means, would more than likely end that affordability. This situation causes me a certain amount of ethical confusion.

And as to my descrition of the Yellow Shirt/Red Shirt struggle, I admit it is unredeemably simplistic, but there is inadequate time and space to give the subject the justice it deserves.

[phetaroi]

...Thailand for all its development falls way behind countries like Korea and Japan. Peaceblondie hopes change will not bring spilled blood, and I certainly do not wish for that. However, let me observe that A LOT OF IT was spilled in most countries that underwent radical change for the better, including Korea and Japan, both torn by massive wars...

...Look at the French Revolution. Sometimes the road to change, sadly, is through the guillotine. At the core of Thai culture is an unwillingness to change...

...They are taught that it is polite to accept and go with the flow and that it is rude to disrupt that flow with the question, "Why?" Ask your co-teachers and Thai friends about this. I was here married to a Thai teacher two years before this truth revealed itself to me. Think of the import of this. It is at the heart of every problem with the Thai educational system (students are not allowed to question teachers, teachers never question principals, etc., etc. - ask them). An aside: I asked my wife if she had ever heard of "brainstorming." Her answer surprised me, "Oh yes," she said, "the school sent us to a seminar about how to do it." Did you ever try it at school meetings? "Yes," she said. With the principal? "Oh no, she said, "we could never do that! It's only something to do with co-teachers and friends." Huh?...

...Such behavior is not polite and is insulting to the higher up. Ideas moving up from "below" are NOT welcome. The creativity we embrace and even take for granted in the West, and which we know comes abundantly from the young, is actively suppressed here. But any change always starts with the question, "Why?" Or, "Why not?" My personal belief, and only that, is that the ban on the question "why?" is not so much a part of the culture itself, as it is an element forcefully injected into the culture by the people in and wishing to remain in power.

This is at the heart of the political situation. The inability or unwillingness to ask "Why?" is the number one obstruction on the road to political and social change - and especially, the educational system. It is at the heart of the current political situation. Change this, and everything else will follow in due course.

This aspect of the culture is driven and enforced by those that have held power for 100's of years. The 1932 "revolution" was really only a blip, a subtle shifting, a dispute between elites. Wealth controls. Those that have it all want no real change. The struggle you see today rose before, in the 70's (under the guise of the "communist threat"), but was crushed by both force and a massive propaganda campaign financed by the CIA and the United States military . The struggle was revived under Thaksin. Thaksin may have been have been a bad guy, probably was, but be that as it may, under his administration many popular populist programs, such as OTOP, were born. The word "populist" has been made a derogatory term describing "leaders" that use giveaway programs to garner votes. However, that is not the sole meaning. The OTOP program was populist as it served the "have not" masses and did garner votes, but it was not a "giveaway." It created and encouraged opportunity to better ones self and ones economic position through small enterprise. And look around; it was and is wildly successful. This sort of thing had not been encouraged prior to Thaksin. I have no illusion that Thaksin used these programs to achieve the ends of his own personal gain, but whatever the reason, people got a taste of what could be; they discovered that maybe they and their families were not stuck forever at their current stations in life. For the first time, many began to reject the idea, so actively pressed upon them, that instead of questioning "why?" they should just "be happy" with their current stations in life. They discovered that their vote could count for something, that maybe they held some power of their own. This genie has gotten out among the people and it cannot now be stuffed back into the bottle.

The current struggle for change IS the Yellow Shirt/Red Shirt struggle. "Yellow Shirts" is a euphemism for those that have everything already and want NO CHANGE. The Red Shirts are everybody else involved in the struggle -- the force for change. The Red Shirts ARE NOT about Thaksin. Thaksin is a rallying point for only some of them, but the Yellow Shirts seek to portray the Red Shirts as little more than the rag tag supporters of a criminal. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is a collection of Thaksin supporters as well as many academics, farmers, and small business people who detest Thaksin, but feel they have nowhere else to turn.

...

Let me be clear about one thing, I and other foreigners are guests in this country. We are not allowed to participate in politics and I, in no way, get involved; I am only an observer, albeit an interested one. I have NOT written a condemnation of Thai Culture, nor have I intended any disrespect. My only criticism is against the ban on the question, "Why?" Thai culture is warm, beautiful and welcoming, as are the people who own it. I love and have great respect the Thai people and the culture; that is why I am here...

Certainly a comprehensive post, and I mean that as a compliment.

Yes, Thailand falls behind Japan and Korea. And, as you hint at, those two countries have horrendous bloody histories in modern times. I hope modern Thailand never follows a similar pattern. I don't think most Thais want Thailand to be Japan. Or Thailand to be South Korea. I think they want Thailand to be Thailand.

At the core of all countries is an unwillingness to change. It is a predominant human nature.

I did have to laugh regarding your paragraph about brainstorming. Yes, we actively taught that to students in my school system in Virginia. I (I was a Principal) often tried to get my teachers to do it in faculty forums. But, most were more content to say, "Oh that's so much work. Why don't you tell us what you want us to do."

I'm not sure the distinction between asking "why" and bringing about change is as big a divide between the West and Thailand as you see. For example, the energy crisis? Global warming? Western democracies are very slow to move on this topic, even though many are asking the question "why". It actually comes down to $$$$$$$ more than deisres.

I disagree with your assessment of the Communist threat Thailand did face in the 1960s. In fact, those nations that did not succeed in solving that threat (Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam...perhaps Burma?) are hardly in a better position now than Thailand.

You say that the red shirt movement is not about Thaksin. Thaksin's two successors were total failures. The red shirts keep showing up to rallies wearing Thaksin masks. If it's really about principles, they should be able to settle around a competent successor...but they can't.

I do appreciate the thought you put into your post and your concluding paragraph.

[phetaroi]

Thailand, educationally at least, will remain a backwater for some considerable time, maybe forever being 2nd or 3rd rate compared to more inspired, energetic societies (eg: Japan, China, Korea to name a few).

Westeners, in the main, can look at things objectively and openly and can acknowlegge of a good, common sense idea.

And, in so doing, are prepared to change the way of doing things for the betterment of it's development, people, and in this particular case, it's children.

To be Japan or China or Korea, Thailand would have to have a history like Japan or China or Korea. Are you very aware of those histories?

Westerners can look at things objectively and openly and blah, blah, blah? Like the current health-care debate in the U.S. Like the riots in France a couple of years ago? Shall I go on?

You have an awfully western-centric view that is quite naive.

[femi fan]

Xangsamhua and Tongue thaied have basically summed it all up. There's probably not much more I could reasonably add other than to provide a personal approach.

Even though ideally Thailand would benfit if it changed some of it's practices within the educational system, I just can't see anything significantly positive emerging within my lifetime, or the next generation for that matter.

The process of change will take decades simply because it's part of the 'culture' .

However, unfortunately for Thailand other countries in the world, and in particular in Asia, are not going to wait for Thailand to catch up. Thailand, educationally at least, will remain a backwater for some considerable time, maybe forever being 2nd or 3rd rate compared to more inspired, energetic societies (eg: Japan, China, Korea to name a few).

As clearly stated already, we, as barely tollerated hired hands, have absolutely no say in the matter.

However, some well intentioned westeners don't seem to get it. They continue to think they are in their own country where even the foreign hired hands are given practically equal rights as local citizens, and where voices from outside are listened to and ideas taken into consideration and given merit.

Westeners, in the main, can look at things objectively and openly and can acknowlegge of a good, common sense idea.

And, in so doing, are prepared to change the way of doing things for the betterment of it's development, people, and in this particular case, it's children.

Therefore, ultimately, over the many years I have lived in Thailand, I have come to realise the total futility of voicing an opinion (at least publicly) on almost any matter concerning Thais and Thailand. It just does not pay dividends.

Oh and for the record, I have never considered myself as a "guest" of this country as I have never received an invitation and neither the Thai government nor any Thai individual has ever given me anything. I've always paid my own way for everything (including visa) from the day I entered Thalands boarders until now. A guest is someone you invite and pay for and honour.

But, things are significantly changing here, no need to wait a generation or two! Learner autonomy for example has gained currency in the educational system, if not a full understanding of how to achieve it. I think the will is there to change things in education, but not the means. Thais in the higher echelond of education are aware of some necessary changes, but not so clued up on how to achieve them. Furthermore, farangs are part of this process.

It's very difficult for anybody in any country to accept 'outsiders' coming along and decreeing that this and that should happen to make things better. It's far easier for people to accept the content of what is being said to them if the manner in which it is being said is respectful and inclusive. It's about creating bridges between two different ways. Westerners most definitely do have a say in the matter. How effective they are at being listened to, and action being taken upon their ideas and experience, very much depends on how they comport themselves.

In business a wonderful synergy can often be seen to be operating, something akin to western management and thai innovation and socially-embracing ways creating a nice double act.

No, agreed, other countries are not going to wait for thailand to catch up, but equally do you think thailand is just going to sit idly by watching itself go backwards? And educationally this is the case too. Parents want certain things for their kids, and those demands will be listened to and acted upon because they have the money. The key thing there though, is educating the parents as to what is best for their kids!

Korea keeps on getting touted as some kind of better system, but they are deeply traditional i'm led to understand.

I don't think it's instructive to compare the westerners here with the thais here. It's not comparing like with like. Westerners here have got up off their <deleted> to move a long way from their country of birth. Most people don't want to do that. Inherently i would suggest those who have moved over here are somewhat more developed in attitudes to life than those who remain where they were born. Travellers have always been at the vanguard of positive change.

"Therefore, ultimately, over the many years I have lived in Thailand, I have come to realise the total futility of voicing an opinion (at least publicly) on almost any matter concerning Thais and Thailand. It just does not pay dividends."

Pay dividends for who? And while you've found it to be futile, that is not my experience. It is hard work, but not futile. Perhaps doing this publicly is the wrong way of going about it?

One successful way of engaging people is to avoid telling them anything at first, but rather to elicit their own ideas on the matter. Get them to invest in their own efforts in discussing whatever topic first, then you can begin to add your own ideas by which time their minds are sufficiently open. Education that decrees what is right is not real education. Real education is getting others to explore their own paths and coming to you for gaps that they subsequently find...

[patklang]

There is little you can do and probably even less that you should do. You are basically swimming upstream.

I encounter this on a very regular basis. It's a part of the fabric of Thai society and I don't think it's going to change for a very long time -- the old dinosaurs will be replaced by younger dinosaurs. Basically, try to sooth your anger and let this be a Thai thing and let them handle it on their own. How things look are important here.

Best of luck.

If you have forgotten,you are teaching in Thailand,and most of you are not at big schools so you made your bed and have to lie in it.I think it will be very difficult to have much control as you are non thai.

[femi fan]

Thailand, educationally at least, will remain a backwater for some considerable time, maybe forever being 2nd or 3rd rate compared to more inspired, energetic societies (eg: Japan, China, Korea to name a few).

Westeners, in the main, can look at things objectively and openly and can acknowlegge of a good, common sense idea.

And, in so doing, are prepared to change the way of doing things for the betterment of it's development, people, and in this particular case, it's children.

To be Japan or China or Korea, Thailand would have to have a history like Japan or China or Korea. Are you very aware of those histories?

Westerners can look at things objectively and openly and blah, blah, blah? Like the current health-care debate in the U.S. Like the riots in France a couple of years ago? Shall I go on?

You have an awfully western-centric view that is quite naive.

Well, indeed, and i also think it instructive if someone is calling thailand a 'backwater'. It just does not even begin to qualify as such place. More people visit this country for their holidays than britain. If it is a backwater, then that appears to be something positive!

While the likes of thailand are foraging their way in this world on the up, the likes of britain and america are going in the other direction in my opinion, and that certainly applies to education. Thailand is a positive place. I just cannot say that about my home country.

I also think thai people have certain qualities that will help them navigate these changes that are testing them.

[femi fan]

I struggle deeply with this in my own in my own thinking, and I have NO IDEA as to the answer or what is right. I am fortunate, in a sense, to be merely an observer. With no stake, I can be apathetic without seeming irresponsible. People innately, want more. They always want more. It is part of the Darwinian struggle for survival. Open the gates; turn the people loose; let them run free and get whatever they can. Isn't THAT freedom? Wouldn't THAT good? Because of the nature of humanity, THAT WILL get another U.S. I came from there, didn't like what it has become. So, is a benevolent dictatorship that keeps the people happy, but down on the farm better? That is the question, isn't it?

For me, personally, I hope I am old enough to have passed through the chimney by the time enough sh!t hits the fan to end my shang gra la. Most foriegners would agree that the wonderful attributes that attract us to Thailand are too many to list. However, and please don't accuse me of being crass for my honesty, affordibility is VERY high on the list for most of us. Keep in mind that "affordability" is a purely relative concept. It is the very inequity of this place that makes it affordable to Westerners. An equitable distribution of wealth in this country, by whatever means, would more than likely end that affordability. This situation causes me a certain amount of ethical confusion.

And as to my descrition of the Yellow Shirt/Red Shirt struggle, I admit it is unredeemably simplistic, but there is inadequate time and space to give the subject the justice it deserves.

I don't think shit will hit the fan! I think the thais are too clever for that. But they've certainly got some testing times to deal with.

As for why i'm here, however much i like this country and its people, for me it's more important simply that i'm not living in my home country, the UK.

Your raising of the question about beneveloent dictatorship is indeed the crux of all of this! Personally i think we can avoid that by finding solutions to life outside the sphere of politics, but while politics is our default method of organising society, it may well be that a benevolent 'dictator' is best. After all, most people simply want to be led, rather than lead...!

[PeaceBlondie]

"do you think thailand is just going to sit idly by watching itself go backwards?"

Yes.

[jasreeve17]

"do you think thailand is just going to sit idly by watching itself go backwards?"

Yes.

I've watched it, and am watching it do so.

[chiangmaibruce]

Those of you who haven't already read this article might find it interesting & relevant to this thread:

bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/23346/that-which-nourishes-thailand-may-destroy-thailand"]http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...estroy-thailand[/url

[barky]

Thailand, educationally at least, will remain a backwater for some considerable time, maybe forever being 2nd or 3rd rate compared to more inspired, energetic societies (eg: Japan, China, Korea to name a few).

Westeners, in the main, can look at things objectively and openly and can acknowlegge of a good, common sense idea.

And, in so doing, are prepared to change the way of doing things for the betterment of it's development, people, and in this particular case, it's children.

To be Japan or China or Korea, Thailand would have to have a history like Japan or China or Korea. Are you very aware of those histories?

Westerners can look at things objectively and openly and blah, blah, blah? Like the current health-care debate in the U.S. Like the riots in France a couple of years ago? Shall I go on?

You have an awfully western-centric view that is quite naive.

Western-centric because I am western. That seems normal. And, I don't have an ethnic cringe about it as you seem to have.

Try telling a Thai that being Thai-centric is naive. No, you wouldn't would you.

I'd stack up western objectivity to Thai objectivity any day.

[Scott]

This thread is going off-topic, but I must say it is doing so in a positive, constructive manner up to this point. It's nice to hear a debate that focuses on the issues that face the country (and education is intrinsic to that debate) in a manner that doesn't insult the ideas of other posters.

Even though this thread is off-topic, I'm going to let it continue. Please keep from flaming, name-calling or insulting behavior to others.

We live in fascinating and interesting times in Thailand, at least from a sociological point of view. I guess it takes some teacher's to bring the best out of people in a debate.

[slapout]

As many of the contributors to this discussion are more experienced and knowledgeable than me on the subject, I am just going to mention my 'WHY' asked over the years to school teachers/administrators, business people, etc. Why do you not have a suggestion box for students and/or employees? The blank look I have seen as answer to my Why is classic.

[elkangorito]

It appears to me that the topic basically relates to corruption & self gratification at the cost of others (others being the poorer people).

Of course, the "why?" question can & will play a big part in stemming these problems...as soon as the little folk begin to realise;

1] that they are the backbone of the country,

2] that there is no "sin" in asking "why",

3] that they have been hoodwinked by the power grabbing elite (the ones who insist upon cultural indoctrination),

4] that they are individuals who have the ability to work collectively IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO (not by cultural command).

I find it interesting that whenever the Thai teacher leaves the classroom, my students turn into "thinking & questioning" human beings. I love it when they ask me why & they love when I give them an answer. Of course, my answer is free of conditions & emotional blackmail.

The way I see it, ego is the big problem here. It's a big problem in the west too but I think it's a bigger problem here.