How Good Is A Thai Medical Degree By World Standards?

[aay2553]

I have a Cambodian friend who wants to study medicine. He sensibly rejects the idea of getting a Cambodian degree (which is worthless).

He believes a Thai degree would be a better bet, if he wished to practise outside Cambodia one day. So he's thinking of coming to BKK for a few years to get one.

But how internationally useful is a Thai medical degree?

I assume he could practise in other SE Asian countries - but anywhere else? The West?

this is very interesting because recently a friend told me that " no good western establishment really recognises anything earnt in thailand"

she said that there were just too many case's of someone being far below standard.

She addedd that whilst lip service may be applied they were extra checking procedures for any sort of degree and simelar earnt here- and quite a number of other places too.

After meeting local head of an english department I can well understand why. This person was in charge of teaching the teachers and yet could not even tell me who some of the great authors were.

Their name card was even misspelt!

[calbears]

Robroy,

As a former medical student at the Cambodian medical school, I gained the first-hand experience of how badly run and funded the school was. Bribery was not only allowed but also forced upon students who worked very hard.

Now that i'm in the states owning a BA degree in molecular cell biology from a prestigious university and working as research associate in a national lab, I always contemplate about different options that I got after I finished high school. In my heart and soul, I still want to be a doctor and i will start the journey again next year from year 1.

I have done lots of research about medical schools and tried to look at different possible pathways that can lead a Cambodian student to get a medical licence in the US, which also means he or she can practice medicne in many other countries around the world.

It is impossible to get a residency in the states with a Cambodian degree unless you score very high on the USMLE, and that is very very unlikely, even if he was genetically Einstein.

It's impossible to study medicine in Thailand unless the person knows Thai fluently. All communication in hospitals are in Thai.

Fudan medical college of the University of Shanghai also offers English medical program for foreigners. There are many SE Asians of Chinese descent there. They also make students learn some conversation in mandarin so that they can interact with chinese patients.

I personally prefer Phillipines' medical schools, but he has to do undergrad first. I like the idea of undergrad in sciences because it helps him build strong science foundation neccessary for further learning in medicine. Three to four years of undergrad plus another four of med school doesn't sound bad at all. It's also seven years in Cambodia and you learn only a fraction of what students in the Phillipines do.

Also the cost of school and living is cheaper than most other places. AND most importantly, everything is in English, even rotations in hospitals and patient communication. Phillipines medical schools' curriculum somehow reflects that of the US, which is a big plus if he wants to get licence from the US.

Again many phillipino doctors fail to get residency in the US. Clinical experience in the US, high USMLE scores are very important, and most foreign physicians do not have one or the other or both. As many as 80% of phillipino MDs go to nursing schools in hope of immigrating to the US to work and live (much easier route than MD's). Hospitals are scrambling to find residents to fill up spots.

Sorry for the rambling, in any case, go visit valuemd.com, there are all the neccessary info for medical schools abroad there.

Wish him good luck.

[Robroy]

As the originator of this thread I'd like to say a big thanks to all who have contributed.

(And please keep it coming.)

I am sending the link to my Cambodian would-be doctor friend, & I know he will be much enlightened.

Does anyone have a case study to submit of someone who got a Thai medical degree then tried to practise in the West?

I have a feel for the theoretical picture, but reading all the entry requirements for (for example) a Thai-degree-holder wanting to enter the US medical system would take me a day and a half; & fine-tuning that knowledge by exchanging emails with the relevant institutions would possibly take a month.

If there were someone who has earned a Thai medical degree then (tried to) work in the US or Europe or Australia (for example) that would help to make things more concrete.

I understand some of the challenges - e.g. most Thai med degrees are conducted in Thai language; lower level unis are not recommended; & most importantly: graduates wishing to practise in the West would have to pass a 'rigorous' exam there. But I'm not clear as to how much extra knowledge would have to be gained to pass that rigorous exam, & how long that might take. (A month? Three years?)

I suppose a bottom line question to our notional Thai degree-holder would be: After getting your Thai medical degree, how did you get to practise general medicine in the US/Europe/Australia, & how long did that take?

Off that track slightly, to the question of the Thai degree itself, we seem to have a slight difference of opinion between:

"But keep in mind that a Thai university degree is roughly equivelant to a high school diploma in western countries -- perhaps less than a western HSD because Thais notoriously cheat and plagiarize their way through all levels of school..."

and:

"My best friend here is a Thai doctor, Chula grad. He is constantly being recruited to emigrate overseas to practice medicine, most especially by Canada."

Anyone care to try & resolve this one?

Thanks again for all the erudite input.

[Arkady]

In my most recent trip to the Philippines for holiday (I used to work there though), I was surprised to meet some Thai students on the same flight who were studying dentistry (in English) in the Philippines instead of Thailand!

And note, this wasn't in a top school in Manila (De La Salle, etc.), but in a school in a province near Cebu I think (Dumaguete? I'm not sure if that's near Cebu...).

These didn't seem like poor Thai students either... They were the Thai-chinese type who spoke pretty good English.

They failed to get into medical school in Thailand. No wealthy Thai would study in the Philippines out of choice. It is less developed than Thailand and the food is awful.

[Arkady]

Consider three incontrovertible facts and then form your own conclusion.

1) Wealthy Thais don't allow Thai doctors who haven't studied and practised in the US or another Western country to cut them up.

2) Only the equivalent of 6 British GCSE passes are required for entry to the best Thai univiversities.

3) Despite all the medical tourism going on the Thai medical profession is stalwart in keeping out foreign competition by insisting foreign doctors pass exams in Thai, even if they will only treat foreign patients and despite the fact that English is used as the official language of record in all Thai private hospitals. In most industries foreign competition is regarded as forcing local industries to raise standards to become more competitive.

[calbears]

Foreign medical graduates (FMGs) can practice medicine in the US unless they have done residency in US hospitals. It does not matter what kind of specialty or experience FMGs have had in their respective countries. Actually the longer FMGs are out of school, the harder to get residency appointment in the US. And working experience in fact works to their disavantage. Weird but that's how it is. They only want fresh out of school doctors. The way residency program directors select their potential employees/students is first and foremost applicants' scores on USMLE tests, performance evaluation through letter of recommendations preferably written by US physicians, and schools of medical study. This is why it's important to have clinical rotation in US hospitals before they apply.

Residency program directors tend to pick the ones from schools they are familiar with. If you come from a school he/she has never heard about, you have to have stellar USMLE scores to beat the odds. The reason why Phillipine medical schools are popular among foreign students who want to practice in the US is because these schools have sent hundreds of FMGs to the US. They have their student bases practicing medicine in the US. And program directors are familiar with grads from those schools. Some Phillipine schools even arrange clinical rotations in US hospitals in year four.

I know two phil american brothers who could not get into med schools in the US and went to a medical school in the Phillipines. Now they both are practicing physicians in the US.

I think it's not impossible to get into residency program in the US for a Thai medical graduate. But he/she has to be fluent in English and has really strong foundation in medical basic sciences in order to score well on the tests.

[Sheryl]

Consider three incontrovertible facts and then form your own conclusion.

1) Wealthy Thais don't allow Thai doctors who haven't studied and practised in the US or another Western country to cut them up.

Neither do/would I. Fortunately there is no shortage of such and if you take the time, top notch physicians, Board certified in US or other "first world" country,can be found in virtually all specialties in Bangkok. Some of them internationally prominent in their field. Outside of Bangkok, admittedly problematic.

Might add that I wouldn't let a US-trained (or anywhere-trained) doctor operate or do an invasive procedure on me without having vetted his qualifications, either.

Reminds me of the old joke:

Q What do you call someone who was at the bottom of their class in medical school?

A. " Doctor "

I am constantly amazed at people who will just walk into a clinic or hospital and take pot luck on a doctor. Especially as the same people would probably not trust their car to a mechanis without at least a friend's recommendation. You can replace a car, you have only one body. Choose your physician(s) with care.

[lannarebirth]

Off that track slightly, to the question of the Thai degree itself, we seem to have a slight difference of opinion between:

"But keep in mind that a Thai university degree is roughly equivelant to a high school diploma in western countries -- perhaps less than a western HSD because Thais notoriously cheat and plagiarize their way through all levels of school..."

and:

"My best friend here is a Thai doctor, Chula grad. He is constantly being recruited to emigrate overseas to practice medicine, most especially by Canada."

As with most professions it is the certification and not the degree that allows one to practice. I cannot say how a Chula Med School degree is regarded in western countries, but I'd guess it's somewhat over a high school diploma as another poster claims. Whatever is the case with respect to the diploma the recruiter is interested in 3 things primarily. One, will the emigre be able to pass the local certification boards? Two, will they accept the same or lesser pay than local doctors (who, in the case of Canada are fleeing to the US where there are no wage limitations)? Three, are the recruiters and the institution that hires the doctor, asses sufficiently covered from a liability standpoint?

[Dakhar]

In my Masters program in Audiology, we had one Chinese ENT, one Pakistanian ENT and one Jordanian ENT in our class. They all graduated as audiologists, and never became practicing physicians in the states. They were all excellent students and excelled in their classes. Anatomy and physiciology was not a challenge at all for them.

I did meet a Pakistanian Neuro surgeon, great guy, and an Iranian med student...

Point is, I guess it is possible....

But again I can only comment with experience regarding audiology, and not a single Thai audiologist could become an audiologist in the states. You need to have a doctorate degree, and the Thai BS degree is not going to cut it. That said, most of the world is behind in the field of Audiology. Australia, and Hong Kong are the exception.

Singapore, the hub of medicine, has Zero audiology programs.... Taiwan 1, China maybe 3 or less. (they all differ in standards)

[calbears]

I hope this clears out some of the confusions due to unfamiliarity of how a foreign medical graduate obtains medical license to practice in the US. I personally think a medical degree from Chula or other good universities in Thailand is ligit to be recognized in the US as long as they are listed in the World Directory of Medical Schools. And the list is in the links below:

http://www.who.int/hrh/wdms/en/

http://www.who.int/hrh/wdms/media/en/Thailand.pdf

As I mentioned above, it's personal quality and medical knowledge that ultimately are the determining factors. If you do well on Board exams and shine during clinical observership or externship in hospitals, you will put yourself in a very good position to get interviews. And lastly, you'll have to do well in the interviews to finally get accepted in residency programs.

Physicians from any country cannot practice medicine in the US unless they have gone through residency program there. So getting a residency position is the first and the most crucial step to gain license to do medicine in the US. The American medical system is fair in allowing individuals chance to show their potential no matter where they're from. Many many physicians from China, Phillipines, South America.... are practicing medicine in the US. Some are ones of the bests in their fields. A world renowned liver transplant specialist at Stanford was a medical graduate from a poor country in South America. I personally think a medical graduate from Chula definitely has a good chance only if he/she is smart, very fluent in English and can do well on all three board exams; which is very hard to achieve but doable. In fact, in one of residency blogs, I saw a med grad from Thailand who had spent three years in the US to do clinical research received a residency spot somewhere in Illinois.

[jackoneilone]

In Australia going from memory, to get a medical practitioners license ie simply being able to practice medicine, you apply to the AMC(Australian Medical Council) and then to practice medicine you apply to the State medical board. Each state has its own board and though there are some differences between requirements for each state and hence board license the general idea for AMC requirements is:

1. The university for when you graduated most be on the WHO accredited list

2. You must show the required English Competency

3. You produce documentation to prove your residency and any practising you may have done

then once the minimums are accepted

I believe you have to pass 2 exams

1 theorictical containing 2 parts each about 3.5hrs long

1 clinical/practical

ofcourse if your a specialist or surgeon etc you need to pass the appropriate boards exams too so on top of meeting AMC min requirement you would then have to pass further exams and scrutiny for example by the board of surgeons if ur a surgeon etc etc etc

That gets you AMC's and any other applicable board eg Surgeons etc approval, then you apply to the state medical board and fulfil their requirements too.

Fairly long winded and comprehensive process.

Edited October 24, 2009 by jackoneilone

[jayboy]

I think one of the things we have to remember is that there is a difference between the quality of a doctor and the perception of "foreign" doctors (in this case meaning Thai doctors since the question was about Thai doctors and world standards). The best general practitioner I ever had was from Pakistan. Unbelievably knowledgeable, excellent bedside manner, knew the right balance of going far enough but not too far in terms of testing. Yet, my friends didn't want to try a Pakistani doctor because he wouldn't be up to world standards. No matter that his residency was in a leading American hospital or that he had all the necessary licenses and several uncommon honors. He was Pakistani...yuck!

Well that says more about your racist and ignorant friends than anything else.Most people couldn't care less about the ethnicity of a doctor provided he has the right background and experience.

[jayboy]

Consider three incontrovertible facts and then form your own conclusion.

1) Wealthy Thais don't allow Thai doctors who haven't studied and practised in the US or another Western country to cut them up.

Neither do/would I.

Really? I had assumed that "home grown" Thai doctors practising at the top Bangkok hospitals would be acceptable.If you think otherwise that's really worth knowing.