Expat Bashing From Your Home Country?

[Jingthing]

on-on

Now I'm wondering if you're just trying to argue, since I was agreeing with you and you managed to take offense and argue anyway, heh. SIMMMAH DOWN SIMMAH DOWN.

My comments were NOT directed SPECIFICALLY at you. They were more general.

The following comment is also more general, OK?:

If an demagogue like Huckabee suggests that people who don't want to see large American flags everywhere they go in America, should leave the country, the implication is these people are un-American and should leave the country. Yes, I think there is a strong implication that people who do leave the country are like the people he wants to leave, unpatriotic. I read that in his comments most definitely. I get it that people think I am stretching that point, but my point of view is as valid as yours, a subjective interpretation of his political point of view, which I feel is sadly very common among Americans. BTW, to repeat, I don't think there is anything unpatriotic about not wanting to stare at national flags everywhere and anywhere, for example, bathroom stalls, and yes, even gyms.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Jingthing

[klikster]

What is it with US politics and religion?

I think many in the US believe that the country was founded strictly on religious freedom. Eisenhower upped the ante when he/they changed the Pledge of Allegiance.

I was raised in the bible belt ci. "happy days" and I can remember lots of racism, but not nearly the fundamentalism of today. You can thank Falwell and his ilk for some of the mixing religion and politics rather than keeping the church to hel_l out of State business.

[GarryP]

I understand that the standard of living in the US is quite high so many of your compatriots may not understand the reasoning behind going to live overseas when you have got it so good where you are. Thus, if you are leaving you may been seen as unpatriotic.

Again, not based on first hand knowledge, in the UK I understand that the cost of living is very high and if you do not have a very good salary it can be quite hard to have a decent standard of living. This is very different to the states. Thus, when you leave the UK you are seen as moving away for a better deal in life. (Although more recently it seems to be rats leaving a sinking ship).

Like the above poster, I just do not get the religion thing, but then I am atheist. I suppose being atheist would be considered unpatriotic to a lot of Americans not just the Fox New Network.

Edited November 3, 2009 by GarryP

[DegenFarang]

I only have one thing to say about this topic.

fuc_k the IRS

[maccaroni man]

Watching Fox "News" tv my blood came to a boil watching the Mike Huckabee show in which the ex-governor and future republican party US presidential hopeful let loose an expat bashing tirade.

It made me think that there is a long tradition in US politics for the right wing to demonize people who leave America as the most heinous kind of unpatriotic types. For example, the old canard, Love it or Leave it.

Now I realize many people leave their countries for negative reasons (they really hate their countries for whatever reasons) but in my view most of us leave our countries for POSITIVE reasons (because we have really good reasons to go the country we are moving to). Leaving doesn't usually mean we are more or less patriotic than our less adventurous brothers who stay home and it doesn't always mean we won't be back someday.

So my intention here is for expats from different countries to discuss whether there are political factions in their home countries which bash expats, or not. I really don't know or have any preconceived notions about it.

As a background to the Huckabee rant, he was reporting on a news story where a gym owner had a big US flag displayed in the gym. Some customers complained that they were offended by looking to the flag while working out. The owner refused to take down the flag and instead suggested the complaining customers go away. From this small story, Huckabee went into a virilunt rant about how anyone who is offended by displays of the American flag should go buy a ONE WAY ticket out of America, and the America would be much better off without them. He also mused that some of the stimulus money should be spent to send away such people, again on ONE WAY tickets. You get the drift here, the strong implication is that the many people who have actually left America on ONE WAY tickets are horribly unpatriotic and that anyone who has left the US (except of course SOLDIERS) hate the American flag. A politician like Huckabee uses this kind of rhetoric to whip up nationalism and hatred of the foreign.

So, does this kind of thing happen in your home countries, or is the USA a little special this way?

A point worth mentioning is the fact that it is the Obama admin that has started new policies to tax the expat community job benefits, which makes it much less attractive to live and work abroad.

[h90]

I never heard a word about Expats in Austria, beside some positive comments when some was successful outside, like Schwarzenegger and Stronach.

As well automatic you don't pay tax anymore when you leave + government really tries to keep in contact so we Expats can participate on the elections.

But Austria is a 8 Mill people country, it is normal that people leave. (You automatic do if you drive 100 miles in one direction )

[sassienie]

I only have one thing to say about this topic.

fuc_k the IRS

Who let you out of the, has my girlfriend lost face thread and what is the IRS? Did you make love to your girlfriend`s best friend in front of her as you described in your post?

These are questions that myself and many of us are now asking? Which are about as Thailand relavant as this thread.

And why are you swearing at people? We are not to blame for your relationship problems, no point in taking it out of us.

Edited November 3, 2009 by sassienie

[PeaceBlondie]

Mike Huckabee and Bill Clinton come from the same small town in Arkansas. Mike and I both earned a BA in religion at small Baptist unis, and dropped out of the same seminary. But I'm divorced, gay, politically liberal, and opposed to violence. I walk out of Baptist churches when they say the Pledge of Allegiance or sing the national anthem. Mike's theologically a heretic, in my opinion, based on S Baptist theology.

Now, where were we?

[Jingthing]

To defend this thread:

This is a forum for expats in Thailand.

The topic is about attitudes in our various countries of origin towards expats in general, of course not only to Thailand, but certainly including Thailand.

While about half the posts here are way off topic, I think the relation of this topic to the audience here is crystal clear.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Jingthing

[sassienie]

Mike Huckabee and Bill Clinton come from the same small town in Arkansas. Mike and I both earned a BA in religion at small Baptist unis, and dropped out of the same seminary. But I'm divorced, gay, politically liberal, and opposed to violence. I walk out of Baptist churches when they say the Pledge of Allegiance or sing the national anthem. Mike's theologically a heretic, in my opinion, based on S Baptist theology.

Now, where were we?

Yes, but it seems you are on first name terms with him.

[JimsKnight]

Watching Fox "News" tv my blood came to a boil watching the Mike Huckabee show in which the ex-governor and future republican party US presidential hopeful let loose an expat bashing tirade.

It made me think that there is a long tradition in US politics for the right wing to demonize people who leave America as the most heinous kind of unpatriotic types. For example, the old canard, Love it or Leave it.

Now I realize many people leave their countries for negative reasons (they really hate their countries for whatever reasons) but in my view most of us leave our countries for POSITIVE reasons (because we have really good reasons to go the country we are moving to). Leaving doesn't usually mean we are more or less patriotic than our less adventurous brothers who stay home and it doesn't always mean we won't be back someday.

So my intention here is for expats from different countries to discuss whether there are political factions in their home countries which bash expats, or not. I really don't know or have any preconceived notions about it.

As a background to the Huckabee rant, he was reporting on a news story where a gym owner had a big US flag displayed in the gym. Some customers complained that they were offended by looking to the flag while working out. The owner refused to take down the flag and instead suggested the complaining customers go away. From this small story, Huckabee went into a virilunt rant about how anyone who is offended by displays of the American flag should go buy a ONE WAY ticket out of America, and the America would be much better off without them. He also mused that some of the stimulus money should be spent to send away such people, again on ONE WAY tickets. You get the drift here, the strong implication is that the many people who have actually left America on ONE WAY tickets are horribly unpatriotic and that anyone who has left the US (except of course SOLDIERS) hate the American flag. A politician like Huckabee uses this kind of rhetoric to whip up nationalism and hatred of the foreign.

So, does this kind of thing happen in your home countries, or is the USA a little special this way?

Mate, it depends on your ideology and political persuation whether you let this drive you nuts.

I know from your posts the right wing isn't exactly your hang-out so you've automatically given it from your side of the fence.

Huckabee isn't one of the bad repubs. In fact a lot of Dems I know admitted if they had to vote for a Republican it'd be either him or Ron Paul.

Nothing wrong with a bit of Nationalism, as long as the expats aren't being hounded.

Afterall if you had a nice house you'd looked after you wouldn't want people coming and going whilly nilly without knowing they are ok.

If anything I personally have been more affected by the vile and despicable labour party who have been hammering UK expats for some time now.

So for me Huckabee was right in what he said apart from when he said they should clear out of the country. I think he was just caught up in the moment and got carried away.

[Huey]

Jing, Farce news is entertainment for right wing conservative bigots, not the most intellectual and certainly not the most traveled of groups. Most have a 2 block radius mentality, if it didn't happy near their local Wal Mart then they can't relate.

[Ulysses G.]

That is sure a lot of stereotyping from someone who claims to not appreciate stereotyping.

[on-on]

on-on

Now I'm wondering if you're just trying to argue, since I was agreeing with you and you managed to take offense and argue anyway, heh. SIMMMAH DOWN SIMMAH DOWN.

My comments were NOT directed SPECIFICALLY at you. They were more general.

The following comment is also more general, OK?:

If an demagogue like Huckabee suggests that people who don't want to see large American flags everywhere they go in America, should leave the country, the implication is these people are un-American and should leave the country. Yes, I think there is a strong implication that people who do leave the country are like the people he wants to leave, unpatriotic. I read that in his comments most definitely. I get it that people think I am stretching that point, but my point of view is as valid as yours, a subjective interpretation of his political point of view, which I feel is sadly very common among Americans. BTW, to repeat, I don't think there is anything unpatriotic about not wanting to stare at national flags everywhere and anywhere, for example, bathroom stalls, and yes, even gyms.

Well after re-reading your initial question I can't really offer anything since I'm American too, but I do have trouble imagining any other developed Western country with the same jingoism and exceptionalism issues that we have. There's isolationism, anti-intellectualism and xenophobia everywhere, but that unique combination that a chunk of our population has is really weird in my experience and I've never seen a counterpart among similarly developed nations. The same underlying logic comes out anytime there's a healthcare debate involving other countries and came out a lot during the run-up to the war in Iraq - the Freedom Fries nonsense is a good example. Can you imagine any other major, developed country's legislative body forcing the cafeteria to change the name of French Fries to Freedom Fries? There are some unruly legislatures out there, but only the Koreans have that level of goofball nationalism and it's directed specifically at Japan.

Edited November 3, 2009 by on-on

[maccaroni man]

Jing, Farce news is entertainment for right wing conservative bigots, not the most intellectual and certainly not the most traveled of groups. Most have a 2 block radius mentality, if it didn't happy near their local Wal Mart then they can't relate.

sorry but this post strikes me as typical liberal entitlement jargon; i.e. people who believe that if you want to eat, work, are bigots. People who believe we should be accountable and responsible for our own actions are narrow minded. people who accept their situations for what it is and do what is needed to improve their situation are dumb. So yes i guess you are right these people can not relate to the community organizers, who demand lending institutions give moneyto those who can not afford to pay it back. btw they do not travel becaue they are too busy working and paying taxes so the liberals can organize.

[OriginalPoster]

A point worth mentioning is the fact that it is the Obama admin that has started new policies to tax the expat community job benefits, which makes it much less attractive to live and work abroad.

What new policies are you referring to specifically? I'm not disputing what you say, it's just that the only one that I head about was leaning on foreign banks to help the IRS find people who haven't been paying taxes on their overseas investment income. Is there active legislation aimed at making other changes?

[maccaroni man]

A point worth mentioning is the fact that it is the Obama admin that has started new policies to tax the expat community job benefits, which makes it much less attractive to live and work abroad.

What new policies are you referring to specifically? I'm not disputing what you say, it's just that the only one that I head about was leaning on foreign banks to help the IRS find people who haven't been paying taxes on their overseas investment income. Is there active legislation aimed at making other changes?

yes in the past benefits such as childrens tuition, car, rent etc... the typical benefits that come with over seas assignments were not taxed but the new admin is now considering these benefits income hence people who would normaly want to work in places with high running cost such as singapore want no longer want to and the expats who are already working their are being hit with a whole new tax hike. This is just another example of how the obama admin has it's claws out for the working people who do what they can to live an above average life style.

[MrHammer]

Depends on which people you listen to. In many countries I guess there's certainly a "think you're to good for us" mentality. Most people feel seriously threathened by the thought of moving to another country to live, particularly if they are settled down. They may even be scared of the freedom that you have. They start thinking 'what if?'

I do think most of the West has gone completely down the crapper with mass immigration, manufactered economic crisis, high taxes, feminism, destruction of the family and gender roles, consumerism, fear and more and more restriction in personal freedom.

I will return for the revolution though (wether Islamic or Anarchistic).

[OriginalPoster]

A point worth mentioning is the fact that it is the Obama admin that has started new policies to tax the expat community job benefits, which makes it much less attractive to live and work abroad.

What new policies are you referring to specifically? I'm not disputing what you say, it's just that the only one that I head about was leaning on foreign banks to help the IRS find people who haven't been paying taxes on their overseas investment income. Is there active legislation aimed at making other changes?

yes in the past benefits such as childrens tuition, car, rent etc... the typical benefits that come with over seas assignments were not taxed but the new admin is now considering these benefits income hence people who would normaly want to work in places with high running cost such as singapore want no longer want to and the expats who are already working their are being hit with a whole new tax hike. This is just another example of how the obama admin has it's claws out for the working people who do what they can to live an above average life style.

Don't they need to make a change in the tax laws in order to start considering previously untaxed items as taxable? The Foreign Housing Exclusion is still in the tax code, for instance, so it seems that a law change would be needed before they could start taxing rent paid by a company on an expat's behalf.

[Huey]

Jing, Farce news is entertainment for right wing conservative bigots, not the most intellectual and certainly not the most traveled of groups. Most have a 2 block radius mentality, if it didn't happy near their local Wal Mart then they can't relate.

sorry but this post strikes me as typical liberal entitlement jargon; i.e. people who believe that if you want to eat, work, are bigots. People who believe we should be accountable and responsible for our own actions are narrow minded. people who accept their situations for what it is and do what is needed to improve their situation are dumb. So yes i guess you are right these people can not relate to the community organizers, who demand lending institutions give moneyto those who can not afford to pay it back. btw they do not travel becaue they are too busy working and paying taxes so the liberals can organize.

Then you have been struck wrong, I left home at 18, always had a job or owned my own business since I was 13, I never was on welfare, and other than the new house I bought in August I'm debt free. And yes I'm Liberal and yes I stand behind everything I said. Americans need to travel more and think about more and bigoted conservative garbage that Farce "News" pukes up just perpetuates that 2 block radius ignorance so many of Americans like that have. And furthermore, I donated to The Obama campaign so that Tax dollars didn't need to go to it, like say McCain's for example.

And man, give me a break, no community organizers went to financial institutions and twisted their arm to offer loaded sub prime lending schemes to people who could not afford it, they came up with that scam on their own.

[mikecwm]

I think you should really be more discerning about which TV channels you watch.

[bendejo]

I think somebody who makes a big display of patriotism is doing so to cover up something.

There's an old saying "patriotism is the last refuge of the coward."

I disagree. I think it's the first.

Fox News has some pretty funny stuff. That guy Glenn Beck was talking about the new communist revolution that threatened the USA over the weekend, had me rolling on the floor. Sometimes he's better than Colbert.

But as for the topic brought up by the OP, yes, why would you leave the USA if you didn't have to? This is the way most of the 85ers think. Let me explain: for years I've been saying that only 15% of Americans (or rather, US citizens) are intelligent enough to make an informed decision at the polls; you may think that is harsh, but I think I'm being generous. Right-wing dreckmeisters have a name for that 15%, "elites." An elite, from what i can make of it, is someone who feels they can make their own decision, rather than follow the dictates of media blowhards. I call the "non-elites" 85ers. Sometimes I think that it means their IQ is below 85.

Americans are known to have a terrible knowledge of geography (there's another thread about this currently running). In 2001, as the US was gearing up to invade Afghanistan, a woman sitting next to me on a bus asked "why are we invading Argentina?" Most of Americans don't know Thailand from Taiwan, or Australia from Austria. Who the hel_l knows what goes in their heads when the subject of other countries comes up? How can you expect the reaction to be positive? Thank god Fox News is there to tell them what to think! The US invades countries that 85% of it's citizens couldn't locate on the map.

Sometimes when people ask me why I live out here, I tell them 'as they say in the USA "love it or leave" to which I say "here I am."' But I'm not that bad -- last year I voted for the first time in 20 years.

Edited November 3, 2009 by bendejo

[MrHammer]

It would be interesting to hear Thais opinion on this. What do Thais think about Thais who go abroad for longer periods? (not talking study or summer jobs)

[nisakiman]

Regardless of whether you read the same IMPLIED meaning in the Huckabee rant that I did (that leaving America is un-American), if you are American expat and you have not had stay at home Americans openly question your love of our country, I think you are unusual or came from San Francisco ... The general thrust of this thread remains the same and the question remains the same, is your patriotism suspect because of being an expat? I know it is for Americans, you can't convince me any differently.

I think perhaps it's because America is a relatively young country made up of a disparate population. Patriotism, rather than a shared heritage, is the glue that binds the people together.

Britain has a different attitude. A British expat is an integral part of the British psyche - you are almost expected to become expat. The colonial heritage still manifesting itself, I guess. I've never come across any kind of approbrium meted out to the Brits who choose to live outside the UK.

[smokie36]

Regardless of whether you read the same IMPLIED meaning in the Huckabee rant that I did (that leaving America is un-American), if you are American expat and you have not had stay at home Americans openly question your love of our country, I think you are unusual or came from San Francisco ... The general thrust of this thread remains the same and the question remains the same, is your patriotism suspect because of being an expat? I know it is for Americans, you can't convince me any differently.

I think perhaps it's because America is a relatively young country made up of a disparate population. Patriotism, rather than a shared heritage, is the glue that binds the people together.

Britain has a different attitude. A British expat is an integral part of the British psyche - you are almost expected to become expat. The colonial heritage still manifesting itself, I guess. I've never come across any kind of approbrium meted out to the Brits who choose to live outside the UK.

I think brits are encouraged to travel and explore. Maybe its the small seafaring nation we once were.

Don't suppose the winters do this any harm either. I mean who in the UK could fail to be jealous of their friends sunning themseves in Thailand every winter?

[phetaroi]

Regardless of whether you read the same IMPLIED meaning in the Huckabee rant that I did (that leaving America is un-American), if you are American expat and you have not had stay at home Americans openly question your love of our country, I think you are unusual or came from San Francisco ... The general thrust of this thread remains the same and the question remains the same, is your patriotism suspect because of being an expat? I know it is for Americans, you can't convince me any differently.

Jingthing, you're a good poster, so I don't want to have you think the following is about you...just about the issue you brought up.

I haven't seen the Huckabee episode in question, although I have seen his show in the past. I don't think he's a demagogue, but rather a somewhat moderate Republican trying to figure out how to successfully run for president in an extremely conservative party controlled by the likes of Limbaugh-ites. A lot depends on how you view the messenger. Compare JFK's "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” How different is that, actually, than George Bush's policy in Iraq? How successful are we going to ultimately be in Iraq, as compared to the Kennedy/LBJ war in Vietnam? Yet, look how differently Kennedy's message is perceived to be than George Bush's message.

I am wondering if you are not misreading Huckabee's intent. It sounds to me as if he was talking about foreign expats living in the U.S. If so, I don't necessarily disagree with him. I am reminded of an incident in my school in Virginia several years ago. In our gym we had a flag from the country of every "foreign" student we had, and above all and biggest of all, an American flag. A Vietnamese parent came in practically frothing at the mouth one day because we didn't have the South Vietnamese flag...a country that no longer existed. We had the current Vietnamese flag. He went nuts and ultimately got nowhere. Had he ever done anything for our school? No. Had he even come to Back To School Night? No. A parent conference? No. A fund-raiser? No.

After 9/11, a lot of us in America were disappointed that Muslims who were living in America did little in speaking out against the terrorist attack. Some were interviewed about it, and the most frequent response was that no matter what, one Muslim doesn't speak out against another. So here they were, getting all the benefits of living in America (I'm talking about the "foreign" Muslims who emigrated to America), but not willing to stand up for their adopted country.

That brings me back to JFK again (and here I paraphrase because I am too lazy to look it up)..."Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country." I don't think native-born Americans do enough for their country, for the most part, but I think many of the modern immigrants to America do far less. They reap the benefits and nothing more. And for many who have come to America, there's even a sense of anti-Americanism present.

And that brings me to...well, me. What do I give to Thailand. Forget about the value of the financial inflow. That's accidental, not intentional...I'm certainly not gaining any merit with that. I'd like to do some free tutoring. Not allowed since I'm on a retirement visa. I'd like to get involved with some sane environmental groups (e.g., all the trash and rubbish lying around Bangkok). Haven't found a source for that, yet.

It seems like I should have an "ending" to this post, but not sure what it should be.

[phetaroi]

I think you should really be more discerning about which TV channels you watch.

On the other hand. I know Americans who constantly criticize Fox News, but have never watched it. Is that making informed decision?

When I was still in the U.S. I watched CNN about 50% of the time, MSNBC about 30% of the time, and FOX about 20% of the time. Personally, I found CNN the closest to middle-of-the-road, MSNBC to be clearly slanted liberal, and FOX clearly slanted conservative. I also find it interesting how much different CNN international is, than CNN in America. I now like to watch a little BBC for balance.

[samuibeachcomber]

I think perhaps it's because America is a relatively young country made up of a disparate population. Patriotism, rather than a shared heritage, is the glue that binds the people together.

i think this is the reason too.plus the Usa is a very insular country hence the need to flag wave all the time.american expats would be branded traitors(how can anyone find a better place to live)too for forsaking the "good old US of A.more mature countries dont berate their expats but say "good on you" i'd like to leave too,and no one gets offended with these remarks,its a sign of a country that knows its place in the world and is happy with it.

[phetaroi]

I think somebody who makes a big display of patriotism is doing so to cover up something.

There's an old saying "patriotism is the last refuge of the coward."

I disagree. I think it's the first.

Fox News has some pretty funny stuff. That guy Glenn Beck was talking about the new communist revolution that threatened the USA over the weekend, had me rolling on the floor. Sometimes he's better than Colbert.

...

Americans are known to have a terrible knowledge of geography (there's another thread about this currently running). In 2001, as the US was gearing up to invade Afghanistan, a woman sitting next to me on a bus asked "why are we invading Argentina?" Most of Americans don't know Thailand from Taiwan, or Australia from Austria. Who the hel_l knows what goes in their heads when the subject of other countries comes up? How can you expect the reaction to be positive? Thank god Fox News is there to tell them what to think! The US invades countries that 85% of it's citizens couldn't locate on the map.

Sometimes when people ask me why I live out here, I tell them 'as they say in the USA "love it or leave" to which I say "here I am."' But I'm not that bad -- last year I voted for the first time in 20 years.

I don't agree with you at all about patriotism. What's wrong with being proud of your country? My only suggestion is that if you want to wrap patriotism around something, then you'd better be realistic about all that your country stands for and has done.

You and I do agree on one thing -- Glenn Beck. What a fruit cake. Don't get me wrong. I can watch and enjoy (and even sat next to on a plane once) George Will. There are other conservatives that make me think. But Beck scares me even more than Limbaugh. He's nothing but a circus act.

I find an awfully lot of people in the world are "whatevertheirowncountryis-centric", not just Americans.

You and I also agree on something else -- I too voted for the first time in about 20 years in the last election!

[Xangsamhua]

Maybe not directly on-topic, but related.

165 million people would like to call the US "home".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091103/lf_af..._20091103190030