F1 2010 Preview

[ignis]

I think now a day in F1 with sealed engines and a ban on development for x amount of years, all the engines supplied will be the same.. In this season until the last few races the McLaren Mercedes was the slowest of the Merc engine cars on the grid...

As always it is about Lawyers and wording of contracts, some may remember years back in the 80's when Mercedes made the 190E and wanted a sport model.. they turned to Cosworth and we had the 2.3 Cosworth 190E Mercedes..... Cosworth made a contract error, so when the contract came to an end Mercedes simply took the Cosworth engine to bit and copied it..... It was then sold as the Mercedes 190 E 2.3-16.. later the 190 E 2.5-16......... Reliability on the 2.3-16 was better than the 2.3 Cosworth..

[Mosha]

A couple of sites are reporting Silverstone is almost secured. Also Bernie gives Monaco and Monza a cheap rate, if he can give Italy a cheap deal why not his home country?

Edited November 28, 2009 by Mosha

[ignis]

The Canadian Grand Prix will once again take part in the Formula One championship, government authorities confirmed Friday afternoon in Montreal. The 2010 edition will take place June 13th, inaugurating a new five-year contract spanning the 2010-2014 seasons.

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Jacques Villeneuve on Thursday visited Lotus and was given a tour of Colin Chapman’s first workshops as speculation continues regarding a race return for the famous Canadian racer.

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Robert Kubica will be free to sign with another team unless Renault guarantees his seat in the coming weeks, according to a report on Friday in Spain's Diario AS.

The 24-year-old has signed a contract to race with the French squad in 2010, but Renault is contemplating its commitment to Formula One and is set to announce its plans before the end of the year.

+++++++

German car manufacturer BMW has provisionally agreed to sell its BMW Sauber Formula 1 team back to team founder Peter Sauber.The move comes after BMW cancelled plans to sell to Qadbak Investments. Sauber, who retained a 20% stake in the team when he sold it to BMW in 2005, will take complete control if they are allowed to race next season.

[Hazri]

JV returning to F1? I wonder if Schumi would follow suit.

[wackysleet]

Hi Guys, I am a new entrant to this fraternity, but an avid fan and regular 'lurker'. I really can't understand all the fuss about Button, and why Maclaren have taken him on - other than the obvious Champion title.

He has achieved absolutely nothing in a very long career, last season was given a huge point advantage due to a superior car in the first half of the season, but tried his best to stuff that up when all the other marques caught up.

Shocking decision by Maclaren IMHO, I am sure I will be justified from the first race. He is an alsoran driver who had a lucky break as far as I see it. I will bow to you guys' superior knowledge if you disagree, just offering my 2 baht's worth.

Bring it on, weekends just aren't the same right now. Looking forward to seeing some new blood mixing it up, should be an interesting season. I will check back in to the new '10 thread as soon as it is up.

QED

Button drove superbly in a good car. Once he had a virtually unbeatable lead he dropped back, for whatever reason, and Barri looked better.

Doesn't actually matter - he won the WDC as, at the end of the day HE WON MORE POINTS THAN ANYONE ELSE. Just because he won them at the beginning of the season rather than a fight to the death at the end, makes him no less deserving. Let's be absolutely honest here, no driver really stood out as driving brilliantly all season and therefore more deserving of winning the WDC.

I'm not a Button fan as, whilst I think he's good in a good car, history shows he's mediocre in a poor car. Nonetheless, his WDC was deserved.

Do you honestly think Button will perform worse than Heikki?

If McLaren produce a good car, Button will win them lots of points (unlike Heikki). I think this move will be brilliant for McLaren, but am not so sure it will be good for Button. The team is based around Hamilton. Does Button really stand a chance of changing this?

Apart from your mate Shumi F1 who has ever won the WDC in anything other than a top car and Jenson was no exception, for a change I agree with what you say what is so strange is that Ferrari and Maclaren were so far behind several other runners at the start of the season and I think were possibly slower than last season and lets face it it would not be the first time that the WDC was won by possibly not the best driver on the grid.

Mercedes stated in recent newspapers that they were not going to negotiate with Jenson for 2010 which of course leaves the door open for a full compliment of German drivers but I bet they are sick not getting Vettel who I pick to be in the top 2 next season.

Anyway it's good to be back online here after my travels. David. .

[ignis]

The FIA has released the entry list for the 2010 Formula One Championship, including new teams, new names... and absent parties.

12 teams appear on the list and among them we find Virgin Racing – a designation which confirms that the company is indeed taking over the Manor Grand Prix operation, as was expected; however, the deal between Manor and Virgin has yet to be officially confirmed. Richard Branson's brand sponsored the successful Brawn GP team this season.

The dispute between the FIA and Toyota regarding the Japanese manufacturer's pullout of the sport – a move the FIA considers as a breach of contract following Toyota's previous commitment to F1 until the end of the 2012 season – has resulted in the Sauber team's absence on the 2010 entry list.

"Toyota Motorsport GmbH remains formally bound by the Concorde Agreement to put forward a team for participation, though it has indicated that it will not be in a position to do so," the FIA indicated. "An announcement will be made regarding this entry in due course."

Peter Sauber's team intended to take over Toyota's now-vacant spot, but there have been reports that Toyota might sell its position on the grid to one of the new teams waiting on stand-by – all to avoid a possibly massive financial penalty.

Therefore the 13th and final team position remains in limbo until the FIA-Toyota issue is worked out. If Toyota's spot is given to a new team, Sauber nonetheless has a chance of competing next season if all other participants on the list agree to open up a 14th entry.

Despite Mercedes buying into a majority share, this year's championship-winning outfit appears under the Brawn GP name for the time being. "This team has indicated its intention to change its team name to Mercedes Grand Prix prior to the start of the 2010 season," the FIA pointed out.

[MJo]

Back to Jenson in McLaren.

He will do as good as McLaren guys will let him. Couple of first races he might have the same package as Lewis but after those races it is to drive support as Heikki was doing. If he is ahead of Lewis after first two races, which i seriously doubt, he has some chance to compete equally. Not to mention that the car is developed by and for Lewis so if his driving style is not a match with Lewis, like it was case with Heikki...

Kovi is taking lot of flak now but just remember what was said on Jenson and Rubens a year ago. One was milepost and other one retired but both slow and useless for Brawn... I would say most of the drivers can take WDC given the right car and teams support. I'm quite sure Heikki will impress again in couple of years time when getting a car and team that suits him. Just like Jenson did this season.

Kimi is still in nego with at least couple of teams. Most likely with Mercedes and propably Renault and Sauber are after him as well. Doubt he will go anything else than Mercedes and if they choose not to pay him proper salary he will drive WRC next season in Sohlberg's team (Citroen's second team) backed up by his personal sponsor Red Bull meaning the deal is package with Red Bull F1 seat after for 2011.

If above some reason goes south as backup option he already has tentative contract to drive Nascar with Lada. Financed by Roman Abramovich

[rixalex]

Doubt he will go anything else than Mercedes and if they choose not to pay him proper salary he will drive WRC next season

Proper salary???!!!

By proper salary i take it you mean a ridiculous sum of money salary? Don't get me wrong, if a driver can negotiate that and a team thinks they are worth that then good luck to them. But in Kimi's case it would appear that teams don't think he's worth the through the roof sum that he demands.

Perhaps he needed to think in the same way that Jenson did, i.e. take a cut in salary but drive a good car.

He may well have left it too late however as it seems most of the decent seats have been taken.

[MJo]

I don't think he's asking anything more than other champions around. Few mil a year as most of the drivers.

The main issue seems to be that some expect him to drive for free as he got some money from Ferrari when Santander bought his seat. IMO it has nothing to do with his next year salary request. There is quite a few guys around that have made some serious money in past few years and yet no one is expecting them to drive now for half a mil next year.

If you look Jenson it's bit thick he's claiming he chose McLaren with lower salary just to have better car. Jenson was McLaren's second option and i believe Mercedes was not interested thus the lack of negotiations and salary increase from their side. His contract was announced few hours after Kimi said no to McLaren offer. More to do with contract terms than money for Kimi. One main issue is that in McLaren the drivers are controlled too much, no rallying for fun. Can not even keep their trophys when winning races and other stuff. One reason Kimi left the team for Ferrari.

[rixalex]

I don't think he's asking anything more than other champions around. Few mil a year as most of the drivers.

Your own post below says otherwise.

More amazing is that Kimi in the top of the list with 45M USD. That's more than one third of the total !

DRIVER SALARIES FOR 2009

1. Kimi Raikkonen $45m

2. Lewis Hamilton $18m

3. Fernando Alonso $15m

4. Nico Rosberg $8.5m

5. Jarno Trulli $6.5m

6. Sebastian Vettell $6m

7. Mark Webber $5.5m

8. Jenson Button $5m

9. Robert Kubica $4.5m

10. Heiki Kovaleinen $3.5m

11. Nick Heidfeld $2.8m

12. Timo Glock $2m

13. Giancarlo Fisichella $1.5m

14. Sebastien Buemi $1.5m

15. Rubens Barrichello $1m

16. Jaime Alguersuari $0.5m

17. Vitantonio Liuzzi $NIL

18. Adrian Sutil [Rent a driver]

19. Romain Grossjean $NIL

20. Kazuki Nakajima $NIL

* Ferrari's Felipe Massa, who is not racing due to injury, earned $8m in 2009.

[wackysleet]

I don't think he's asking anything more than other champions around. Few mil a year as most of the drivers.

The main issue seems to be that some expect him to drive for free as he got some money from Ferrari when Santander bought his seat. IMO it has nothing to do with his next year salary request. There is quite a few guys around that have made some serious money in past few years and yet no one is expecting them to drive now for half a mil next year.

If you look Jenson it's bit thick he's claiming he chose McLaren with lower salary just to have better car. Jenson was McLaren's second option and i believe Mercedes was not interested thus the lack of negotiations and salary increase from their side. His contract was announced few hours after Kimi said no to McLaren offer. More to do with contract terms than money for Kimi. One main issue is that in McLaren the drivers are controlled too much, no rallying for fun. Can not even keep their trophys when winning races and other stuff. One reason Kimi left the team for Ferrari.

I have to say Mjo, Mercedes were never interested in Jenson and they said so by not offering to negotiate his salary anymore than they were really interested in Kimi, they want an all German team and will eventually get it.

Whatever one thinks of Jenson it remains that in this past years racing he did the business, ok albeit with a superior car and I cannot help thinking that Maclaren will not have a car for 2010 as bad as 2009 so if they are back to their usual standard of being a front runner from the start then they must be of the opinion that Jenson can cut the mustard, they do not sell their seats like some teams but pick who they think will deliver, the only fly in the ointment that I can see is if the drivers do not get on and one gets prefferential treatment from the team at the start of the season, of course if there is a definite front runner from the off then the second placed driver should drop to number 2 position and accept that role.

[Mosha]

Teams and drivers so far. All those Cosworths are going to confuse Slater.

The full entry list of constructors and drivers as published by the FIA is as follows:

McLaren Mercedes

1 Jenson Button (GB)

2 Lewis Hamilton (GB)

Brawn Mercedes Benz will become Mercedes Grand Prix

3 Nico Rosberg (D)

4 TBA

Red Bull Racing Renault

5 Sebastian Vettel (D)

6 Mark Webber (AUS)

Ferrari

7 Felipe Massa (BR)

8 Fernando Alonso (E)

Williams Cosworth

9 Rubens Barrichello (BR)

10 Nico Hulkenberg (D)

Renault

11 Robert Kubica (PL)

12 TBA

Force India Mercedes

14 Adrian Sutil (D)

15 Vitantonio Liuzzi (I)

STR Ferrari

16 Sebastien Buemi (CH)

17 TBA

Lotus Cosworth

18 TBA

19 TBA

Campos Dallara

20 TBA

21 Bruno Senna (BR)

US F1 Cosworth

22 TBA

23 TBA

Virgin Cosworth

24 Timo Glock (D)

25 TBA

[MJo]

Your own post below says otherwise.

Like i said that's last year salaries based on the contracts signed couple of years back when things were still good. Situation is totally different now and i'm fairly sure Kimi is not asking to get 45M or more for next season. You might find out that Lewis is the one making double compared to others next season as he's still on his old contract. If this happens is he the one who's overpaid then ?

Reportedly Kimi's payout from Ferrari is reduced by 5 mil if he goes and drives with other teams and when other WDC's out there are getting 10 to 18 mil for next year why should he go and drive for 5 mil ?

[MJo]

I have to say Mjo, Mercedes were never interested in Jenson and they said so by not offering to negotiate his salary anymore than they were really interested in Kimi, they want an all German team and will eventually get it.

Whatever one thinks of Jenson it remains that in this past years racing he did the business, ok albeit with a superior car and I cannot help thinking that Maclaren will not have a car for 2010 as bad as 2009 so if they are back to their usual standard of being a front runner from the start then they must be of the opinion that Jenson can cut the mustard, they do not sell their seats like some teams but pick who they think will deliver, the only fly in the ointment that I can see is if the drivers do not get on and one gets prefferential treatment from the team at the start of the season, of course if there is a definite front runner from the off then the second placed driver should drop to number 2 position and accept that role.

Agree with you here, Norbert Haug was in good terms with Kimi in his years in McLaren and said after Kimi's release from Ferrari that "Kimi has my number so he can call anytime". If Brawn and Haug would liked to have Jenson they would have offered him decent contract. They have the budget for it. Although Haug said they do not necessarily need 2 germans as default it is still strong possibility. MacLaren with 2 UK drivers, Merc with 2 Germans and Ferrari with 2 latinos. Creates more hype and interest to the sport.

IMO Jenson also got bit too much flak last season even after he won the WDC. Still he had the most points at the end so he deserves it. Personally i like when the underdog "milepost" comes and shows all what he's capable of with good car. I also think his not so good performance mid and late in the season was just result of Brawn taking it safe and doing just enough to keep the lead and nothing more putting resources towards next years car already during the season. Ross Braws knew he got it after the good start and then just played safe. Jenson also said it was difficult for him to perform due to the pressure but that in part was propably due to the team playing it safe and others getting closer and closer.

Back to the rumours, which are starting to be quite funny now going back and forth.

There is one guy who designs and paints all the finns helmets in F1 and Rally as well. Yesterday the press claimed "unidentified source" had seen in his own eyes one F1 helmet being painted in Renault colours and sponsor logos at this guys workshop. That could mean Kovi is headed back to Renault but who knows anymore if there is any truth in this but it was reported in the Finnish media at front page. The same source said there was also one rally helmet under design but did not see any Citroen colours but this could be for any of the finns driving WRC. But Kovi has been very quiet lately, only saying he believes he will be driving next year. For me it seems he might have contract already signed with someone.

But it looks like no one is making any moves until Mercedes has confirmed their second seat. That will probably trigger the other teams to finalize their drivers fairly quickly after the Merc seats are full.

[wackysleet]

I really hope Jenson does the business at Maclaren and gives Lewis a run for his money, even though Maclaren have stated on numerous occassions that there are no team orders and they recently reiterated that in respect of Lewis and Jenson saying they are free to race each other, don't think so,positions in the standings will often determine who gives way in a race as in the case of Caultard and co.

The last time I saw genuine racing between very talented drivers in the same team was between Senna and Prost, who both being very strong characters were actually beyond the control of Maclaren and likewise, perhaps to a lesser degree Lewis and Fernando but we will just have to wait and see.

[Mosha]

It's been McLaren policy for a number of years, they can race each other as long as they don't take the other car out of the race. Also up to the point where one driver needs the support of his team mate to secure the championship.

[rixalex]

Situation is totally different now and i'm fairly sure Kimi is not asking to get 45M or more for next season. You might find out that Lewis is the one making double compared to others next season as he's still on his old contract. If this happens is he the one who's overpaid then ?

I didn't say anyone was overpaid. If a team is prepared to pay a pie in the sky figure for a driver, then that's up to the team and good luck to the driver i say.

The point i was making is that if you demand a figure which the team that you would like to drive for will not accept, you either have to lower your demands or go drive elsewhere. It seems to me Kimi took the second option. In my opinion that's a bad choice. He'd be better off swallowing his pride, accepting a lower salary, and driving a decent car.

Reportedly Kimi's payout from Ferrari is reduced by 5 mil if he goes and drives with other teams and when other WDC's out there are getting 10 to 18 mil for next year why should he go and drive for 5 mil ?

Why should he go and drive for 5 mil? Well if that's all the teams are prepared to offer, there must be a reason for that, wouldn't you think? Either way, if that is all they offer, what can he do? Refusing to drive for them is hardly a great solution for him. Maybe he should feel grateful for having spent the last couple of years earning considerable more than anyone else in the entire field, and accept the fact that his career in F1 has moved on to a new phase in which he's no longer able to demand a king's ransom. This is life. Get on with it. F1 careers are short enough as it is, without having self-enforced seasons away driving road cars around muddy fields.

Jenson took a pay cut when he moved to Brawn. See how that worked out for him.

[wackysleet]

It's been McLaren policy for a number of years, they can race each other as long as they don't take the other car out of the race. Also up to the point where one driver needs the support of his team mate to secure the championship.

Couldn't agree more Mosha, at least on paper, the real racing is actually done on the corners where the point of breaking is done and also where the vast majority of accidents happen, just look at the carnage that all too frequently happens on that corner in comparison to straight line shunts, do you honestly believe that if the two Maclaren cars were on pole that team orders in relation to the first corner would not prevail. .

[MJo]

Why should he go and drive for 5 mil? Well if that's all the teams are prepared to offer, there must be a reason for that, wouldn't you think? Either way, if that is all they offer, what can he do? Refusing to drive for them is hardly a great solution for him. Maybe he should feel grateful for having spent the last couple of years earning considerable more than anyone else in the entire field, and accept the fact that his career in F1 has moved on to a new phase in which he's no longer able to demand a king's ransom. This is life. Get on with it. F1 careers are short enough as it is, without having self-enforced seasons away driving road cars around muddy fields.

Jenson took a pay cut when he moved to Brawn. See how that worked out for him.

Well i guess it is matter of principle to Kimi more than money issue. I mean i would do the same, not bend over and take it from behind just because someone thinks he will desperately need a drive and will sign for whatever contract terms and salary. I mean why on earth he would do that, he could as well go and sign with Campos or the Air Asia team or GP2 teams. He's been there and done that already so good car with market rate salary or nothing. I can understand it as i would do the same.

And as i said IMO the McLaren deal gone wrong was more to do with contract terms than money. Two options, they tried to limit his free time between the races meaning no occasional rally and too much pr duties or then there was something about who has priority of new parts to car etc etc.

Kimi has said himself many times that it is car capable of winning races or then something else. So why not WRC as he likes it, is quite good at it obviously and the pay is nice. Have you ever seen in your own eyes the cars go 180 kph in 2m wide gravel road in the woods. That requires more skill and gut than driving F1 around the track if you ask me and the few F1 drivers who have tried it in the top levels.

[rixalex]

And as i said IMO the McLaren deal gone wrong was more to do with contract terms than money.

After being replaced by Fernando Alonso at Renault, he entered negotiations with former team McLaren but failed to agree financial terms.

McLaren then recruited Brawn GP's 2009 F1 champion Jenson Button to form an all-British line-up with 2008 winner Lewis Hamilton.

Raikkonen was offered a contract by Toyota in October but reports claimed that deal was also scuppered by his salary demands.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport...one/8394585.stm

Edited December 4, 2009 by rixalex

[Mosha]

From that news item.

"Raikkonen can certainly afford to take a sabbatical from F1 - he is being paid a sum believed to be in the region of 20m euros not to race for Ferrari in 2010."

I might write to Ferrari, I won't drive for them next year, can I have 20m Euro please?

[wackysleet]

From that news item.

"Raikkonen can certainly afford to take a sabbatical from F1 - he is being paid a sum believed to be in the region of 20m euros not to race for Ferrari in 2010."

I might write to Ferrari, I won't drive for them next year, can I have 20m Euro please?

Your behind me in the line mate .

[MJo]

I would not hold that much weight on BBC's speculation of Kimi's negotiations. His manager as Kimi himself has made it clear that Toyota was not even considered. Reason being they do not have car capable of winning. McLaren deal possibly about money but did they offer 5 or 15mil or even less than 5. No one knows apart from parties involved.

And now Kimi has signed a year contract with Citroen. So he will be driving their 2nd team WRC car for full season !!!

His staff in Finland is hinting that Mercedes deal was no go as they did not agree on Kimi racing also rally cars in his own time and demanding too much PR duties between the races. So not money but contract terms again.

Anyways it is interesting to see how well he does in WRC, the car is pretty much same as Loeb has but naturally the first team guys have advantage in resources and support etc. The experts are saying that he should drive to points once he learns how to make good notes, and with little luck could be in podium on some rallies. His co-driver is a guy who has been with Tommi Makinen and other top drivers so he will teach him the trade fairly fast.

[wackysleet]

If McLaren produce a good car, Button will win them lots of points (unlike Heikki). I think this move will be brilliant for McLaren, but am not so sure it will be good for Button. The team is based around Hamilton. Does Button really stand a chance of changing this?

That's up to Button.

There's no sentimentality in F1. If Button gets better results than Hamilton, the focus of the team will shift towards him. But he has to earn that by driving out of his skin at the start of the season. If Lewis gets away that will be it.

It's a tough challenge to be going to a new team and having to be red hot from the first race, but this is what being a World Champ is about. Proving yourself, sometimes in adversity.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man, as they say. Will Button cometh? Personally, i have my doubts.

P.S. David, any news?

rixalex. My daughter is now out of hospital but returns once a week for a scan as she still has headaches and dizziness but at least she is back at university now, everything is looking good, once again mate thanks for your concern.

By the way I agree with everything you stated and thats how it should be. David.

[wackysleet]

I have just read an interesting article in Pitpass from one Nico Hulkenberg revealing that he was approached by Ferrari in July with a view to replacing Massa, turning it down believing poor results by Ferrari may damage his future career.

His decision fits in with a little bit of info that came Pitpass way recently.

Hulkenberg is managed by Willi Webber, who just happens to manage another German driver. Could this be the same driver who according to their sources, following a brief {secret} outing in the F60 at Mugello, is said to have claimed that driving the car would damage his reputation and turned down the chance of replacing Massa.

Obviously it's easy enough to check on who manages the German drivers, but Sebastian Vettel for one does not have a manager and has stated he can manage his own negotiations, perhaps the story/speculation fits in with some very recent history. Sorry I have to digress, all of this typing has given me a stiff neck so will take til next season to recover. .

[Mosha]

Chai Yo! Silverstone is saved

http://msn.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5753246,00.html

[Mosha]

New points system for 2010?

http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,1952...5763431,00.html

[ignis]

So not money but contract terms again.

As far as I can remember McLaren is the only Team that a driver must work for them 24/7...? So a driver driving for McLaren gets the agreed wage and nothing more..

Many other drivers earn money from other things as well as the F1 wage...

If I remember correctly Michael Schumacher had a wage of about 27 million but earned on top of this about 30 million from merchandising and endorsements.

Some drivers did [still do?] drive for free and earn money on merchandising and endorsements.

So is Lewis Hamilton highly paid?

[wackysleet]

rixalex, Mjo, come on lads I am going to throw a big bone into the arena, so go for it, I know you both like to indulge in some light hearted banter so lets not wait for 2010 to start lets have a debate about something or anything, this topic shouldn't close down for the season as well.

Has anyone any good memories of great racing that they have attended recently or sometime ago, any little anecdotes, anything.

On my recent trip to London I arranged with a friend to put my collection of F1 races on discs when he can find the time, there are a lot of tapes so hopefully they may start to appear soon.

David.

[Mosha]

To-days rumour is

http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,1952...5764598,00.html