Mobile phone registration - Thailand's policy?

[Thongkorn]

It was said on the BBC News yesterday, (Tuesday the 1 December). That India has blocked 25,000,000, Mobile phones because they did not have a record of who had them and where they were, Also they said they new terrorist where using them to coordinate terrorist acts,,

Will Thailand follow on ,

[bkkjames]

they tried this already here under Taksin if you didn't register the prepaid card or something I believe.

[MikeyIdea]

Thailand forced registration for new numbers during a short period, then stopped. I hope Thailand will start to enforce this again soon

[richard_smith237]

It's illegal to have an unregistered phone in Thailand, be it contract or pre-paid.

It's also very easy to pop into a 7-11 and get a pre-paid phone without any ID etc.

With so many Law’s having the appearance of being made to be breached / broken for the financial gain of law enforcers its hardly surprising that not many of them are taken seriously.

[MiG16]

Ive edited the topic title to better reflect the discussion

cheers

by the way - I think in the 3 southern provinces the law of needing to register all phones including pre-paid is still strictly enforced

now this next part Im not too sure how it works - but apparently if you have a prepaid from elsewhere (and hence not registered in the 3 southern provinces) - the phone would not pick up signal. I cant say this is true - it sounds so overly sophisticated to me, but maybe someone more tech savvy can confirm whether this is possible? reason I was given this explanation was cos my overseas roaming prepaid phone wouldnt work in the southern province (but worked in Bangkok)

[mahtin]

What about all the visitors who buy a new simcard at the 7 every time they come?

I never had a checkout girl ask anything - slight language problem looms here

They would have to print cards like for the pre-5pm booze ban

Edited December 2, 2009 by mahtin

[Maizefarmer]

Why has India blocked 25 million handsets - it has to do with the fact that those handsets do not have recognisable or valid IMEI numbers - dial *#06# on most handsets and you will see your IMEI number.

The IMEI number identifies your handset to the international GSM Association - every handset manufacturer is issued with blocks of IMEI numbers for use with the GSM handsets they manufacture. These IMEI numbers identify handsets whose electronics conform to the GSM Ass standards, whose manufacturers have paid their IP and licensing dues - and who satisify a whole bunch of other internationaly agreed criteria. Each handset is issued with a unique alpha-numeric IMEI number when it's OS is loaded during production and will follow that handset around for the rest of its life, wherever in the world it goes.

Unfortuneatly, network access in different countries is controlled by the network operators e.g. Shin and/or Orange in Thailand (amongst others) - it is not controlled by the international GSM Ass.

What's the relivence of that?

On the one hand, it means that phones manufactured by manufacturers who have not been allocated IMEI numbers can compete with legitmate manufacturers, do not have to produce products that meet international standards ect ect ...... alot of these phones come from factories in China - they are counterfiet handsets.

Secondly, they are handsets that cannot be legitamely identified - the IMEI number unlike a SIM card or SIM ID number which can both be changed, the IMEI number cannot be changed (well it can - but the processs is well beyond the scope of "mom & pop" handset/SIM card sellers - it requires getting into the HAL kernels of the device) - they are handsets which cannot be followed around by the GSM system. Changing a GSM tel number, by changing the SIM card, does not help crooks avoid been monitored - GSM surveillance monitors the handset IMEI number as well. But, if the handset is not telling the GSM system what it's IMEI number is, and the user then changes their SIM card, there is now no way to associate/follow and monitor the handset and it's user/owner.

So - why didn't operators do this a long time ago?

Revenue - it's all about revenue. No IMEI number does not mean cellphone/mobile fraud - usage and accounting is associated with the SIM card numbers, not the handset (thats why you can put a SIM card into any handset and it will work if the account is paid up) - so operators are not loosing money through phones that do not have IMEI numbers, but they will if they block those handsets handsets from network access - and in the case of India, they will now be loosing the revenue from around 25 000 000 mobiles overnight. Thats big time revenue ........ and it's not as if the operators who have chosen to do this willingly - nope, the telcom authorities in India have forced it on them (security, anti-terrorism ect ect .....)

There is of course a downside from a security/anti-terrorism perspective - no intelligence at all is worse than oppurtunistic intelligence.

So what now?

Well, I'm sure other countries are watching ......... if this works out okay in India I think others may follow suite - Pakistan for sure - what about Thailand? Nope - I dont think Thailand ever will: the operators in Thailand are at each others throat for revenue, and CAT (Comms Authority Thailand) I suspect would never want to admitt how many counterfeit handsets are on the local market (and have therefore been smuggled into the country) - between them, the police and the DIP (Dept of Intellectual Property) they get more than enough hassle from the USA each year regards anti-counterfeiting policies and the amount of c/f goods on the Thai open market - to now admitt and add x million c/f phones have also been identified won't look good on Thailands record.

... its a funny old world,

Edited December 2, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[mahtin]

Thank you, Maizefarmer, now I can spend the afternoon digesting that

[Maizefarmer]

Thank you, Maizefarmer, now I can spend the afternoon digesting that

... I know, I know .... useless but interesting information - if you're up to know good, buy a satellite phone handset (they're no bigger than GSM handsets nowadays - and most of them are also GSM tri-banders) - just make sure it isn't a Thuraya - the Thuraya sat system is works on spot beam technology with embedded GPS!!! (yawn - more useless information).

You can buy them over the counter with cash in many countries nowadays (they don't cost much more than a high-end GSM handset - with used ones been cheaper than high-end GSM handsets) - no reg or id needs to take place, or be seen, no contract has to be signed - you get a SIM card, and you can refill it just like a GSM phone.... and they work in the middle of no-where and where ever - just one problem: cost of making calls - still a bit more than a GSM phone (but its fast dropping).

[MikeyIdea]

Thank you very much Maizefarmer, a very informative post

[easyride]

Always the terrorist. Believe everything the press say and the globe would be teeming with terrorists. It isn't!

[pampal]

I have seen some countries blocking phones that don't have the IMEI recorded by the local carrier. Mostly it had to do with mobile phone smuggling.

[bifftastic]

Ive edited the topic title to better reflect the discussion

cheers

by the way - I think in the 3 southern provinces the law of needing to register all phones including pre-paid is still strictly enforced

now this next part Im not too sure how it works - but apparently if you have a prepaid from elsewhere (and hence not registered in the 3 southern provinces) - the phone would not pick up signal. I cant say this is true - it sounds so overly sophisticated to me, but maybe someone more tech savvy can confirm whether this is possible? reason I was given this explanation was cos my overseas roaming prepaid phone wouldnt work in the southern province (but worked in Bangkok)

My UK sim worked in Samui and Phuket, so did the Thai sim I bought in 7-11 in Bangkok, both in my UK phone.

[chessplayer]

As much as I wanted to believe what you have said, there is a crucial logical flaw, on top of Information error.

I have read an article before that telecoms, for the GSM enabled ones too, do not record the IMEI number, because it will slow down the communication process.

As for the logical flaw, You stated one can use the IMEI to track down people, when with the SIM card people can simply change it. Nowadays, mobile phones can be as cheap as the price of two SIM cards. They can be discarded just as easy. From this logical flaw, many of the reasoning and conclusion in your post crumbles.

I am willing to see if you have more information. I am willing to learn new things

Why has India blocked 25 million handsets - it has to do with the fact that those handsets do not have recognisable or valid IMEI numbers - dial *#06# on most handsets and you will see your IMEI number.

the local market (and have therefore been smuggled into the country) - between them, the police and the DIP (Dept of Intellectual Property) they get more than enough hassle from the USA each year regards anti-counterfeiting policies and the amount of c/f goods on the Thai open market - to now admitt and add x million c/f phones have also been identified won't look good on Thailands record.

... its a funny old world,

[Maizefarmer]

Chessplayer

" …..I have read an article before that telecoms, for the GSM enabled ones too, do not record the IMEI number, because it will slow down the communication process.... "

Okay – but, er ……. how does this conflict with anything I wrote?

"As for the logical flaw, You stated one can use the IMEI to track down people, when with the SIM card people can simply change it. Nowadays, mobile phones can be as cheap as the price of two SIM cards. They can be discarded just as easy. From this logical flaw, many of the reasoning and conclusion in your post crumbles."

Do they ……how?

You may have misread/misunderstood completely what I said ……….

Firstly, did you understand my reply as implying that an IMEI number is a default parameter/criteria in the GSM/BSS “handshake” for a link to be established(?)

I went on to clarify what I said by illustrating it against the background of just one of the call setup/link establish procedures in the overall initiation “handshake” that takes place between the handset and the BSS (Base Station) – and that part was in respect of “billing”. I said that it is the SIM card details (to include the actual phone number – which is on the SIM card) used to setup a call, not the IMEI – so how did you read my comments to imply that the IMEI was part of the default criteria to setup a call?

Secondly …………..

" ..... As for the logical flaw, You stated one can use the IMEI to track down people, when with the SIM card people can simply change it. Nowadays, mobile phones can be as cheap as the price of two SIM cards. They can be discarded just as easy. From this logical flaw, many of the reasoning and conclusion in your post crumbles....."

I don’t see how my comments crumble …….. what you have said above is correct, but how does it conflict with what I stated in my earlier post?

Let me write the tech bit again, in different wording and see if the wording I use this time round makes it clearer – I’m not sure if you find conflict with some of my technical comments, or the reasoning around issues like billing, security, monitoring ect ect ……

The IMEI number is embedded into the handset at the manufacturing stage – to be exact it is embedded into an EPROM. To change it would require isolating the EPROM, from the rest of the pcb components, then zapping and re-flashing it (with a new IMEI) – which would require a procedure and level of knowledge well beyond the scope your average Indian GSM phone owner – and even if they could, the problem they then have is what IMEI number to replace it with?

Although the IMEI is a network operator defineable requirement to make/receive a call, it is nearly always an internal handset requirement i.e. take the IMEI out of the handset software/hardware, and the handset will not boot through all it’s internal switch-on/switch-off and go/no-go procedures. Liken it to removing a couple lines of code from the folder on your computer that holds the OS for your wireless card – it may well appear okay, but when it comes to trying to establish a link while roaming, no matter what you do, no matter how you adjust settings through the “user interface”, it just will not establish the link. I don’t know if that’s a good analogy, but it’s all I can think of off hand – I think it makes the point(?).

…… drifting off the point – let’s back to the point: the use and/or recording of the IMEI is not GSM Standard requirement - it is left to the network operator to determine whether or not they wish to make use of it.

Let’s also understand that “use” & “recording” can be treated as 2 separate issues – and dare I say it for fear of taking these notes to a tech level that most are not going to be able to relate to (in which case, what’s the point of writing anything), “use” and/or “recording” of the IMEI can take place at Level 2, Level 3 or even Level 4 of the whole setup process. “Levels” are different software layers involved when setting up a GSM call through a BSS – some levels relate to setting the call rf characteristics i.e. telling the handset what power to transmit at (remember the big marketing slogan used in Shin – “2Watts” – well, just for interests sake, when you make a call, the BSS tells the handset what rf power to set it’s self at – it depends on the distance between the handset and the BSS, which the BSS calculates with a sophisticated math log in a couple microseconds – sometime it’s just millwatts, sometimes its 1watt, and sometimes (very seldom) it’s the full 2watts (I just mention that out of tech interest – it’s not really relivant). Some levels handle the software to tell the handset what channel to go to (GSM calls take place on one of any number channels between an upper and lower frequency), another level interfaces with the network operators billing and accounting software (so that billing can be sent to the user at the end of the month – or so that the network knows that it is dealing with a pre-paid subscriber), and lastly, one thing carried out at one of the levels, which I think most folk will find very interesting to learn, is the decision to use the A5 (1,2) cipher, or not.

Yes, I mean’t to say, “or not” – because - and I think folk will be suprized to learn of this: the A5 (1,2) ciphers used for voice encryption are the most "time & hardware/software/memory" intensive components of setting up a link between a handset and a BSS – so what do a lot of operators do during high call volume times – and this includes the operators in Thailand – they simply switch off the A5 (1,2) components of the call setup process!!!.

So much for security – and it's not just occassionaly, it's large part the time during working hours/weekdays, Thailand’s GSM calls are not ciphered – they are still digitally modulated (GMSK modulation), yes - but they are not ciphered (I have listened to GSM phone calls in Thailand in the past!!) - and again, just out of interest - its a GSM Standard up to the perogative of the network operator to use/not use (in fact some Asian operators are not even trusted by the internatonal controlling body for GSM, with up to date versions of A5, x.x. !!)

Understand how I have used the words “use” and “recording”, their correct context and they role various parts (like the IMEI component) play, and when and how they are used.

The IMEI number may not be recorded, or used by the operator, but it may still be used in one of the “layers”, and it used by the phone it’s self.

Was all the above tech stuff relivant ? - perhaps not, perhaps I am still missing just what it was that you felt crumbled my statements?

…...and your comment “…Nowadays, mobile phones can be as cheap as the price of two SIM cards. They can be discarded just as easy……” !!!!!!

That goes without saying chessplayer- disposing of the handset puts any investigation or effort to trace/monitor/locate/follow a user (for whatever reason), back to square one - well not complelty, but for the purposes of the point you were making – yes, you are correct, throwing the phone and SIM away is as good as getting a new phone and new SIM card every time you make another call. I know this, it obvious to all readers (and phone users!).

I was adding additional info to the OP’s opening thread …………… now, in what way does much of the “reasoning and conclusion in your post crumble…….”

Technically, my comments are accurate – well, as accurate they need be for the purposes of this discussion - trying to keep it readable and understandable for most.

The “revenue” comment regards why operators don't force IMEI onto users as a “go/no-go” requirement are correct (and you were correct too in noting the reason i.e. it's primarily time based)

But you have boldly told me “reasoning and conclusion in your post crumble…….” – fair enough, but just where/what did I write that doesn't addup - other than making the observation that you do, that disposal of the handset is a GSM users solution to just about all (but not all) technical efforts to monitor them – that of course is obvious, and I would have thought doesn’t even require mentioning ….. just, what is it that I have missed?

Edited December 3, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[manarak]

I have seen some countries blocking phones that don't have the IMEI recorded by the local carrier. Mostly it had to do with mobile phone smuggling.

The concept of "phone smuggling" is just wrong.

If a phone is technically able to work on a certain network, there is no reason why it shouldn't.

The price of connections should not be used to subsidize phones.

Distort the market and the market will distort you.

And there is no reason to have them prepaid card registered.

I makes everybody's life more complicated (like I would carry around a passport when buying a sim card, yeah right), except the life of the terrorists, because they would just send some footsoldiers get them sims.

Registration didn't stop the Madrid or London bombings.

Terrorists know how to get phones, enough of them have their own phone shops where they can procure wholesale.

And we keep making everything a hassle, driving prices up.

The Thai phones and prepaid systems are good as they are.

[crudski]

Ive edited the topic title to better reflect the discussion

cheers

by the way - I think in the 3 southern provinces the law of needing to register all phones including pre-paid is still strictly enforced

now this next part Im not too sure how it works - but apparently if you have a prepaid from elsewhere (and hence not registered in the 3 southern provinces) - the phone would not pick up signal. I cant say this is true - it sounds so overly sophisticated to me, but maybe someone more tech savvy can confirm whether this is possible? reason I was given this explanation was cos my overseas roaming prepaid phone wouldnt work in the southern province (but worked in Bangkok)

My UK sim worked in Samui and Phuket, so did the Thai sim I bought in 7-11 in Bangkok, both in my UK phone.

It should do as they're not 2 of the 3 southern provinces...

[redfish44]

The comment about phones having to be registered in the southern provinces are true.

An unregistered SIM that works in Bangkok or Krabi will not work in Pattani - we found this out the hard way. You have to buy a new one and register when they sell it to you, with ID card.