Should Thailand Have A Casino?

[penelope]

Finally, It's not like Thai's need visas to go to Singapore or Poipet, so not having gambling in Thailand isn't going to stop Thai gamblers. All it does is mean they subsidise other countries...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those who can afford to go to Singapore can afford to gamble.

The Thai's in general do seem more prone to gambling than, not all, but most other countries... Am I wrong in saying this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And Macau is pretty cheap/quick to get to.Casinos there are full of thais already.

[maerim]

There is a "chicken/egg" argument about this phenomenon.

Doesn’t this type of argument apply to Thais, Thailand and gambling?

I really don't klnow what would happen here if they opened these places but from what I have seen they would bring more misery and money related problems than theer are now and its illegal.

I do think people need to be protected from themselves when I was married to a Thai who was a compulsive gambler to see this woman and the way she lost money was frightening (even more frightening when it was my money she was losing) the only thing on her mind and her friends minds when they were gambling was the game in hand never mind the home lives or anything else come to that.

I have seen it here as well I know of one man who needed his pick-up truck for his business went to work one day in it, came back on the bus, lost it playing cards so that was the family business of making noodels down the tubes.

I could put with her drinking and smoking as there is only so much alcohol and cigarettes you imbibe in a day not so with gambling.

[digibum]

Wow, so much ignorance on this topic from so many people!

First, most of the proposals I have seen on this topic in the press have been for US companies to run the actual casino operations. Yes, people like Harrah's and such would be the people who run the day to day operations much like they do on the Indian reservations in the US.

Of course, many of the same arguments were made about Indian (i.e. Native American) casinos as are being made here. Indians can't control themselves. It will be a disaster. Yada, yada, yada. Go to any Indian casino and it's filled, absolutely filled, with old white people pumping their retirement money into slot machines. Not many Indians in sight other than the several hundred working there.

I'm not saying that this should be the proud heritage of the Indian people but, they're making buttloads of cash off these casinos which is pumped back into the local economies. In fact, these casinos are making so much money that one of the issues in the last California election was the influence of the casinos on politicians. They've become a huge political force not because of their Native American status but because they wield what politicians respect, money.

Another proposal I've heard put forth is that Thai nationals would be prohibited from gambling in the casinos. That might address the fears that Thais would gamble their lives away. I think most of these casinos would love to serve a mainly tourist crowd anyway. China, Japan, Hong Kong, etc. have a lot of rich citizens itching to go someplace where they can have some fun. A casino in the region would save them the 14 hour flight to Las Vegas. Believe me, casinos don't make their money off locals blowing 20,000 baht in one night. They make their money off of the tourists who come in and 40,000 baht a night for a hotel room and leave 100,000 baht a night on the blackjack table.

Now, I play poker. I play a lot of poker and so I hang out in a lot of casinos. I see most casinos packed with Asians. Some can afford to play and some are gambling beyond their means. Most though, are playing for entertainment. The fact that some of the people commenting on this thread have seen an Asian betting out of control and reason that no Thais should be allowed to gamble is simply racist.

Casinos don't cause crime, poverty, or any other social ill. Las Vegas, Atlantic City, New Orleans, Tunica, Los Angeles, are all reasonably safe and clean cities that host gambling. It seems like almost every state has a local Indian casino or ten and they are some of the nicest hotels around. Costa Rica has it's fair share of casinos. Paradise Island in the Bahamas is a huge tourist destination due to the hotel / casino there. Gambling doesn't equal social ills. With the exception of places like Los Angeles which doesn't allow a full-blown casino to operate (LA has card clubs with poker, blackjack and other card-based games - no slots, craps or other games) the local casinos pump a ton of cash into the local economies due to the fact that the target audience is tourists.

People with gambling problems shouldn't gamble. That's just the way it is. However, everybody else shouldn't be prevented from gambling because a small minority can't control their own behavior. Some have posted stories about gambling addicts and I share in the sadness of what gambling can do to someone's life. On the other hand, not everybody is addicted to gambling. Should we ban sex because people become addicted to it?

Bottom line here is that Thailand needs to be known for something other than being the world's largest whorehouse. Years ago, if you told people you were going to Vegas you got the same raised eyebrow you get today when you tell people you're going to Bangkok on vacation. Today Vegas is a place people take their families to and a significant portion of their tourist traffic don't gamble at all. Thailand has an opportunity to shed the reputation of being a seedy sex spot and they should take advantage of it. These girls don't become prostistutes because they like sleeping with fat, sweaty westerners. They do it because there's not enough legitimate opportunites for them in the workplace. More tourists equals more money pumped into the local economy which means more jobs which means more opportunities which means *less* prostitution. Will there still be bargirls? Yes but far fewer. Will there still be corruption? Yes, but much like Vegas a committed government can pressure the casinos to clean up the action or risk losing hundreds of millions in revenues. Once Thailand sheds it's current image more people will feel ok about coming to the country and *gasp* they just might discover Phuket, Chiang Mai, etc. and start coming to Thailand, not for the gambling, but for the beauty of the country.

[penzman]

Finally - Lonely Planet calling a place an armpit doesn't mean it doesn't generate a lot of money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Never said that it wouldn't generate a lot of money. My point is the gaming taxes from the border casinos (if any) aren't exactly flooding into the Poipet City Council to build better roads, schools and hospitals now are they?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same thing happens in Canada. The province of Quebec is proud of saying their casinos are raking in way more than expected initially while their once reputed health system has been falling apart for years. Where is the money going?

[chuchok]

Wow, so much ignorance on this topic from so many people!

Bottom line here is that Thailand needs to be known for something other than being the world's largest whorehouse.  Years ago, if you told people you were going to Vegas you got the same raised eyebrow you get today when you tell people you're going to Bangkok on vacation.  Today Vegas is a place people take their families to and a significant portion of their tourist traffic don't gamble at all.  Thailand has an opportunity to shed the reputation of being a seedy sex spot and they should take advantage of it.  These girls don't become prostistutes because they like sleeping with fat, sweaty westerners.  They do it because there's not enough legitimate opportunites for them in the workplace.  More tourists equals more money pumped into the local economy which means more jobs which means more opportunities which means *less* prostitution.  Will there still be bargirls?  Yes but far fewer.  Will there still be corruption?  Yes, but much like Vegas a committed government can pressure the casinos to clean up the action or risk losing hundreds of millions in revenues.  Once Thailand sheds it's current image more people will feel ok about coming to the country and *gasp* they just might discover Phuket, Chiang Mai, etc. and start coming to Thailand, not for the gambling, but for the beauty of the country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll be a cold day in ###### before corruption will get cleaned up here.I will be long gone before this happens.The prostitution side will grow as well.People arriving in the country with a wad of cash.The Thais working girls will not let a chance like that go bye.

The only people that will win will be the casino operator and the government(Taxin )

This is certainly not like Vegas and the cost for families and the gen pop will far outweigh the advantages IMHO.

They will still do it though...too much money to be made.

Edited April 21, 2005 by chuchok

[digibum]

This is certainly not like Vegas and the cost for families and the gen pop will far outweigh the advantages IMHO.

Based on what, your personal opinion? Everybody seems to just throw out these kind of statements as if they were facts. What are the costs for families and the general population? Explain how you think they will increase.

The reason Las Vegas is like it is today is because there's far, far more money to be made running a legitimate tourist destination than there is in running a seedy gambling town.

The prostitution side will grow as well.People arriving in the country with a wad of cash.The Thais working girls will not let a chance like that go bye.

Yeah, because they like sleeping with random western men who treat them poorly. They do it because they don't have a wide array of options. If you start giving them choices, fewer of them will opt for going into that line of business. It's not going to ever go away completely as it has not gone away in any society no matter what the standard of living is. But if you have tourism and money coming into an area that creates jobs. Job creation raises the standard of living and creates opportunities.

People keep painting this picture that if you build a casino the only people who will come are sleeze-bags who walk around with hundred dollar bills coming out of their pocket, with a bottle of booze in one hand and a hooker on the other. Have you ever been to Paradise Island in the Bahamas? The place is filled with families. It's got water-slides, giant aquariums, fish feeding stations, etc. It's a mini-amusement park. . . . AND casino.

A casino in Bangkok or elsewhere in Thailand can actually be a tourist destination in itself much like Paradise Island or many of the strip casinos in Vegas. Actually, prostitution would not reflect well on the casino and the most likely scenario would be that the casino would push prostitution farther and farther out of public sight in order to promote the casino as a family-safe destination. You can bet your ass that if the casino is brining in billions of year in revenue that when they tell local politicians that they need to get the prostitution problem in check that Thailand's finest will be enforcing curfews and cracking down on any activity the poses a threat to the image the casino is trying to project.

Look at Vegas. Casino security usually show no patience for prostitutes trying to pick up customers in their casino. The cops get pressure from the casinos to keep the hookers off the strip and have forced most of that sort of activity either off the strip completely or into the disguise of "massage" and escort services that promoters advertise by stuffing the local rag magazines with ads for.

Again, if your only image of a casino is 1960's Las Vegas or some rat hole over the border in Burma then you're probably right about your predictions. Trying to attract sleezy gambelers and hook the locals on forking over their 20,000 baht a month salary on games of chance is the small timers area of expertise. But if this is anything like what Singapore is thinking about, it will be a major hotel and casino run by Las Vegas corporate management who know that the real money in casino operations is in getting the guys who can drop big money at the tables or families who'll spend $4000 - $6000 USD on rooms and meals. You don't attract either by allowing degenerate local gamblers to blow their paycheck at your low limit tables or having hookers bothering your customers.

[haha]

I have nothing against casinos. I think if you prepare properly for one, then, go for it.

..would you jump out of a plane without a parachute? or, walk across the street before looking both ways? of course not.

PM thaksin has the right thinking. the people need to think the whole process out before diving in.

people need to be trained to deal with addicted gamblers, and there will be those who become addicted. what are you going to do with them? just shoot them if they appear?

I was in las vegas last july. I never been there before. I out of random picked a hotel in the center town. not knowing the territory, I didn't think it would matter where I stayed. the next day, one of my friends who lives in vegas told me to get out of that area as soon as possible. ..he called it the war zone. packed with drug addicts, and addicted gamblers. supposely, people get killed there frequently.

I didn't believe him so I stayed.

during the next 2 weeks, I saw some strange events. in the mornings, I would see dozens of people walking around in a daze like zombies. not more than 50 feet from my hotel room, there were junkies selling drugs as if they were at the supermarket. they had these beady looking eyes that burged out at you when they looked your way.

there were even times when strangers would knock on my door in the middle of the night. when I would call out who it was, they would not say anything. did I ever open the door?

no way, jose!

I left that hotel shortly after all these strangers started knocking at my door.

yes, there are positives to opening casinos. but I believe you need to prepare yourself properly to deal with all the negatives before going forward.

don't you agree?

las vegas seems to be doing well with all the casinos in town, but they still have a major problem with drugs. ...and las vegas has had casinos for over 50 years!!!

frankly, I don't think they can control the problem. actually, I don't think they care enough to fix this drug problem. they are too busy counting their money.

..most probably all these people became drug addicts because they couldn't deal with life after they lost all their money.

these kind of problems need to be thought out before going forward so that they won't be a problem later.

right?

[digibum]

yes, there are positives to opening casinos.  but I believe you need to prepare yourself properly to deal with all the negatives before going forward. 

don't you agree?

las vegas seems to be doing well with all the casinos in town, but they still have a major problem with drugs. ...and las vegas has had casinos for over 50 years!!!

frankly, I don't think they can control the problem.  actually, I don't think they care enough to fix this drug problem.  they are too busy counting their money.

..most probably all these people became drug addicts because they couldn't deal with life after they lost all their money. 

these kind of problems need to be thought out before going forward so that they won't be a problem later.

right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're linking two things which aren't necessarily related. Drugs and gambling can go hand and hand but the relationship isn't cause and effect. New York has a serious drug problem yet there are no casinos in NY. Los Angeles has a serious drug problem yet has no casinos (there are legal card rooms but unless you play poker you probably don't even know they exist). Almost every major city in the US has a drug problem yet the vast majority have no casinos. Casinos and gambling don't create drug addicts.

The reason there seems to be a relationship is that people who have compulsive personalities tend to get addicted to things. Be it drugs, gambling, smoking, drinking, sex, etc. someone who has a compulsive personality is simply looking for a vice. It's not surprising you would find drug addicts in Las Vegas because they exist everywhere. You may find this hard to believe but it's far more likely these people lost all of their money because they were drug addicts than they became drug addicts because they lost all of their money gambling.

Should Thailand set up a program to help problem gamblers? Sure. Vegas does the same thing. The casinos fund programs that do commercials and other public service announcements attempting to get people with gambling problems to seek treatment.

Like I said though, probably the best way to go about this though is to ban Thais from going to the casinos! Everybody seems to be concerned with the inability of Thai people to control themselves so just ban them from the casinos. Problem solved! MAJOR RESORT/CASINOS AREN'T INTERESTED IN BUSINESS FROM THE LOCALS. THE CASINO/HOTEL IS FOR TOURISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[aughie]

Are you for or against the two tier pricing system?

[snoophound]

Absolutely Not.

Having seen how much damage the Thai expats have done to their personal finances here in AUST at casinos,it would be a backward step for Thai Society.

Thais just do not know the word stop when gambling.

I have personaly seen one girl here gamble away a 250k marriage settlement in two mths.

I have met another from whom my missus bought some gold,in a house the estranged hubby owns in a trust thank god,with no furniture left to sell.

[Spee]

Look at Vegas.  Casino security usually show no patience for prostitutes trying to pick up customers in their casino.  The cops get pressure from the casinos to keep the hookers off the strip and have forced most of that sort of activity either off the strip completely or into the disguise of "massage" and escort services that promoters advertise by stuffing the local rag magazines with ads for. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To keep it Thailand-related, the main selling point for bringing most newer casinos into an area, was for economic development of a depressed area. While places like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket do have a lot of poverty, they are hardly depressed areas in search of an economic upturn. In fact a casino moving in to one of those places would only compete with the existing economies. As I said before, I don't think that a casino is needed anywhere in Thailand. If anything, one or more casinos would hurt the local economies because these economies count on tourist dollars for a large portion of their incomes. If the tourists spend a good bit of their time and money in casinos, then they aren't out spending it in the local economy.

Going OT a bit, but your comments about Vegas are a bit off-base, this coming from one who has studied the casino business extensively for years and has also spent a fair amount of time at the tables as a blackjack counter and poker player.

Vegas has always been sin-city, and is actually using that image as the new marketing gimmick. One can always get anything one wants in Vegas. The only time there are problems in a casino is when the right person has not been paid off. The city is just as corrupt as it has always been. It is just that the powers that be are better at keeping it out of the papers these days.

But places like Vegas aren't really applicable to most casino-feasibility studies. Vegas is unique in that the area's gaming industry is responsible for about 90% of the entire state's economy. There is no other place in the world that can make this claim, so it really isn't practical to analyze something with Vegas as the point of comparison.

Cheers,

Spee

[digibum]

To keep it Thailand-related, the main selling point for bringing most newer casinos into an area, was for economic development of a depressed area. While places like Bangkok, Pattaya and Phuket do have a lot of poverty, they are hardly depressed areas in search of an economic upturn. In fact a casino moving in to one of those places would only compete with the existing economies. As I said before, I don't think that a casino is needed anywhere in Thailand. If anything, one or more casinos would hurt the local economies because these economies count on tourist dollars for a large portion of their incomes. If the tourists spend a good bit of their time and money in casinos, then they aren't out spending it in the local economy.

Hi Spee. I think:

1) This is a wrong assumption.

2) Your image of Thailand's economy is somewhat skewed.

Singapore is a place with much brighter financial prospects than Thailand and they are the one leading the charge for a SEA casino. The Bahamas were doing fine before Paradise Island and they're doing even better today. If you look around at all the world's casinos I think you'll find that your assumption about depressed areas is largely false (there are going to be instances to the contrary but they don't account for the majority of cases).

Thailand is economically depressed. Perhaps not compared to Cambodia or Laos or a lot of other countries but Phuket is far from being on par with Cancun in Mexico or Seven Mile Beach in Grand Cayman. Even Bangkok doesn't really impress economically when you consider the huge amounts of poverty. It's certainly not at the bottom of the scale economically but it's got a ways to go before it's considered out of the shadow of third-world status. Thailand's current growth rate is deceptive as Thailand has suffered so many economic setbacks over the years.

Going OT a bit, but your comments about Vegas are a bit off-base, this coming from one who has studied the casino business extensively for years and has also spent a fair amount of time at the tables as a blackjack counter and poker player.

Ahh, sounds like someone I can relate to being a poker player myself.

Vegas has always been sin-city, and is actually using that image as the new marketing gimmick. One can always get anything one wants in Vegas. The only time there are problems in a casino is when the right person has not been paid off. The city is just as corrupt as it has always been. It is just that the powers that be are better at keeping it out of the papers these days.

Yes, but compare Vegas' advertising with the Ben Affleck Saturday Night Live skit. That's how many people in the west see Thailand. Murdered prostitutes, insanity, complete disregard for the value of human life, etc. Vegas' ads feature girls going out and using a fake name to pick up on guys or some guy asking for a wakeup call on his cell phone because he's hoping not to be in his own hotel room come morning. Those are two totally different images. Plus, look at the other aspect of the advertising. They no longer highlight the gambling!! Casinos compete to build the biggest fountains, have the best restaurants, the best shows, etc. No casino on the strip is advertising single deck blackjack as a major draw. That's left to the downtown casinos still trying to lure in the serious gamblers or the locals. When a standard room at Bellagio runs $400 a night and suites can run $2000 - $3000 a night and your hotel is booked solid almost 365 days a year, the money is in the rooms and other services and gambling is only a component of your overall profits.

Look at the other images of Thailand popular in the west; Brokedown Palace, The Beach, etc. Even the "cultural" programs like Globe Treker spend at least one segment on the huge prostitution scene in Bangkok. If I walk up to the average American on the street who has never been to SEA before and ask them about Thailand you're sure to hear comments with words like corruption, dangerous, etc.

Now, look at Vegas again. It's the largest convention destination in the world. More conventions, conferences, etc. are held in Las Vegas than any other city in the world. So, while you're correct in saying that the "gaming industry" is 90% of Nevada's income, 90% of all revenues are not from gaming. Hotels, conventions, etc. are becoming an ever increasing percentage of the total revenue generated but because the casinos own all the conference/convention space and all of the hotel rooms it's labeled as gaming industry revenue.

But places like Vegas aren't really applicable to most casino-feasibility studies. Vegas is unique in that the area's gaming industry is responsible for about 90% of the entire state's economy. There is no other place in the world that can make this claim, so it really isn't practical to analyze something with Vegas as the point of comparison.

Cheers,

Spee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're correct that it's not a direct comparison but you can't deny that in most countries where casinos/hotels are tourist destinations that the casino isn't seen as a high-roller scene. Paradise Island is one of the most (if not the most) expensive hotel in the Bahamas. The Aviation Club in Paris is right on the Champs d' Elysee and is a "private" club that there's an air of exclusivity to. Europe has tons of local casinos with dress codes and the cars you see pulling up to the valet are high-end vehicles and not the local janitor blowing is wad.

I can assure you that if someone like MGM Mirage is running the show that prostitution is kept well out of eyesight of the casino and local Thai people are carefully scrutinized so they don't create a negative image of the casino. Because, in the end, that's what places like MGM Mirage, Harrah's, etc. sell. They sell image.

[Kerryd]

Lots of pros and cons here, but the bottom line is, if the big guy thinks this will increase his bottom line, then it's a done deal and to h*ll with the consequences.

Casinos are not the saving grace of the local economy. In most cases, the taxes the government reaps goes into "general revenues" and is doled out depending on which way the political wind is blowing at the time, regardless of what ever promises were made.

Benefits to the local economies ? A few hundred (maybe) locals employed, a few thousand spending, a couple at the top reaping it all in. The exceptions to the rule are in the minority. We have casinos on Indian reserves back home taking in millions, yet the people on the reserve live in squalor. When infrastructure support is required (i.e. road work), the government is expected to pay for it. Where do all those millions go ? Into the pockets of the local chief and whoever financed the casino.

It's bad enough in some places with out casinos. Stoney Plains Reserve is the richest in Canada, earning 10's of millions a year in oil and gas revenue. It also has the highest rates of alcoholism and suicide out of all the reserves in the country. You look at the houses the people live in, delapidated, falling apart, condemned. Where is all that money going ? It certainly isn't improving the lives of most of the people there.

Remember to, This Is Thailand. The "rules" and ways of doing business in other countries don't always work the same here as elsewhere.

Finally (I have to take off soon) remember that casinos are not there to make you money, they are there to take your money. Every aspect of a casino is designed to relieve you of your cash.

You gamblers there should already know this. Whether it be blackjack, roulette, slots, baccarat or craps, the odds are ALWAYS in the house's favour. You play long enough, you'll lose everything. The (very) few that walk away with more than they started with are either very smart, or very lucky.

And yes, that is true even in Vegas or Atlantic City, where people who seem to be winning big are often asked to leave. Not sure how it is in Atlantic City, but in Vegas it seems every coffee shop, gas station and bus station have slot machines, not just the casinos.

[ace]

You gamblers there should already know this. Whether it be blackjack, roulette, slots, baccarat or craps, the odds are ALWAYS in the house's favour. You play long enough, you'll lose everything. The (very) few that walk away with more than they started with are either very smart, or very lucky.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not strictly true with Blackjack, if you can: a. count, b. quit when you're up, c. combine a+b with not being thrown out. Though can't see single deck being implemented in Thailand.

I'm all for a casino. Why should the majority be punished for the stupidity of the minority? Logically, if you think casinos should be banned because some people can't handle gambling then alcohol should be banned too.

I will be there for the opening week if it ever happens, and just sit back with a beer and watch the chaos that ensues, you won't be able to get near a table anyway!

[digibum]

I'm all for a casino. Why should the majority be punished for the stupidity of the minority? Logically, if you think casinos should be banned because some people can't handle gambling then alcohol should be banned too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wonder how many forum regulars would be in favor of an iron-fisted crackdown on prostitution because some guys get lured into giving all their money to bg's. I mean, hey, some people can't control themselves and it ends up ruining their lives. The only way to stop this tragedy is to ban the act for everyone.

I've tried to steer clear of this in my other posts but let's just face it; many of the people posting on this topic are out and out hypocrites. You see the same guy who was posting a few threads ago about bg's thumping his morality bible about the evils of gambling. Uh, yeah, right buddy. You pick your vice and I'll pick mine.

[aughie]

The sidewalks of Las Vegas are carpeted with discarded escort service cards and escort flyer ads. Hawkers walk the streets handing them out by the tens of thousands and it ends up as litter. There's an image for you.

Some people's view of Thailand is distorted because of their media sources. Don't blame Thailand blame the pandering media and people's voyuerism. I don't understand why Thailand must insitute gambling inorder to change other people's view of the country. I have an image of the tourist money flowing straight to the casino corporations and the rich with a substantial amount of the profits shipped out of the country. In the present system it is spread out amongst the local people.

[digibum]

Some people's view of Thailand is distorted because of their media sources. Don't blame Thailand blame the pandering media and people's voyuerism. I don't understand why Thailand must insitute gambling inorder to change other people's view of the country. I have an image of the tourist money flowing straight to the casino corporations and the rich with a substantial amount of the profits shipped out of the country.  In the present system it is spread out amongst the local people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I think I will blame Thailand for the image they've created for themselves. It would be very easy for the Thai government to close down Patpong, Soi Cowboy, etc. They don't because they know that's one of the reasons people visit. In effect, they've helped create the image of Thailand as a sex-tourism destination by openly allowing it.

You're right though, it doesn't need to be a Casino. The country could develop some other attraction. In fact, I think I've posted in this forum about the need for Thailand to figure out some other major tourist draw. Since those VIP cards (or whatever they call them) seem to fall on their face in terms of sales goals every year it's fairly obvious they haven't hit on a winning idea yet. A casino just happens to be a no-brainer.

It's not like this is a new idea. Do you think it's any coincidence that Thaksin is attempting to attract more wealthy tourists? Do you think it coincidence that they keep upping the financial requirements for certain types of visas? Believe me, they would love to get rid of the deadbeat backpackers and expats trying to live there on $1500 a month. The problem is, for Thaksin, that they haven't figured out how to replace the deadbeats and sex-tourists with another form of revenue. Sorry but VIP cards aren't that big of a draw. You need something that draws in real tourists with real money to spend and a casino is probably the easiest way to acheive that goal since it's likely to attract people willing to spend more money.

Also, just a quick note on the economics . . . if Thailand doubles their tourism over the next 5 - 10 years from 13 million to 26 million and increases the daily revenue per tourist from 4,100Bht to 10,000Bht that's a massive amount of money flowing into the economy. Those people need to eat. Food is supplied by farmers from all over the country. Those people need hotels which have to be serviced and cleaned by locals. Those people need transportation which is supplied by small business. Those people shop and will purchase items made by locals and small businesses (custom tailored suits, souveniers, etc). Those people will want to see local attractions like Muay Thai which will increase revenue to local entertainment sources. And all of that is nothing compared to the money spent on construction and infrastrucutre to support this level of commerce.

All this money doesn't just go to the casinos who shuttle it away in suitcases out of the country. It stays in the country and when you go two or three layers deep in the money flowing through the economy you see how increasing tourism, even if it's to a casino, increases the standard of living for a very, very large sector of the local people. Tourism creates demand for local raw resources such as labor, food, entertainment, etc which in turn creates jobs. People with jobs spend more than people without jobs which increases the churn/velocity at which money travels through the economy. Velocity creates growth.

So, I guess you could say that it's not a question of whether or not Thailand should build a casino but if not a casino, what?

[bmanly]

digibum, I have been following your posts on this topic with gusto and agree with everything you say. I make it a point to visit the local casinos where ever I go and I also enjoy their amenities very much (I did Las Vegas in 1984). In Australia as in the USA we have very well managed casinos with none of the "hookers on the streets" and "discarded escort service cards and flyer ads" as some others write about (not in Australia anyway). In fact my wife and I walk to the Casino in Sydney everytime and have NEVER been solicited on the way in any way.

I only hope that what you wrote about Thaksin wanting to get rid of the expats living there on $1500 P/M is not true. We spend 6 Months a year in Thailand and live well on less than 59,000 baht a Month. I hope that never changes.

[Thomas_Merton]

Bumping this topic in light of the news:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=38102&st=0

[LoveDaBlues]

I didn't read all the posts on this thread so maybe I'm just repeating something already said.......I apoligize in advance.

I have lived in Las Vegas since July of 1987. In that time I've worked various jobs and have owned/managed rental property for 15 years. I can't begin to tell you the social problems gambling causes. Suicides, divorce, depression, etc. I've had to evict many good people from apartments because they lost the rent gambling. I currently live in a 3 br/ 2 bath home in a nice neighborhood. My next door neighbor just lost her house. She was the original owner and bought the house new in 1993. Never missed a house payment. Then she got hooked on video poker machines. She lost $50,800 dollars in 1994 to one casino alone. I know the figure because I helped her with her taxes and saw the print-out from the casino. She was getting cash advances on her credit cards and them blowing the money in the machines. Her only way out was to sell the house and take the equity and pay off her credit cards. She then moved to Phoenix to try and get away from so much gambling. She had a beautiful new home here but now lives in a crappy trailer that is roughly 30 years old. Her life is forever changed for the worse because of gambling and it's addictive nature.

Also, I grew up on the Mississippi gulf coast area. When I left gambling was not legal there. Now gambling is legal there and it has caused so many problems.....the same kind I see in Las Vegas. Respected people have been convicted of embezzlement and other crimes all to support their gambling addictions. I have friends who lost their homes and cars because of gambling problems. Many people are lucky; they only lost their jobs and are not prosecuted for employee theft.

Most of the posts here refer to the 'money' (income) aspect of gambling. Not nearly enough thought to the 'social' aspect. I can tell you from experience; you don't want gambling near where you live. You will see violent crime rise (many busted gamblers turn into criminals; they are desperate and will take you down). Many people who were 'just getting by' will now be added to the list of 'street beggars'.

I'm lucky in that I don't have an 'addictive' type of personality. Otherwise I too could be a victim of gambling addiction. Also, it is a myth that only 'stupid' people become addicted to gambling; just ask Leonard Tose.

When I was younger (I'm 49 now) I believed that people should be free to do whatever they wanted once they were of legal age. Now I know better; with age comes wisdom. You don't want gambling.

Many people will argue that 'gambling brings jobs'. It does.......but the cost is too high.

My .02

ps - I retireed last year at age 48 (lucky me) and am moving to LOS as soon as my house here in Vegas sells. I just spent 2 months in LOS and liked it. Yes I met a girl there (no, not a BG) and yes she is waiting for me to come back; typical story but for a different thread.

[thohts]

Casinos do not bring tourists... they bring 'gamblers'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What about Las Vegas, Atlantic City, Macau? Surely they bring in plenty of tourism?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Las Vegas is mostly a tourist destination. It's also a booming city because it works.

The Thai version of Vegas will most likely be a coupld of poorly-constructed casinos with some gambling inside. Same dirt, prostitutes, and corruption, just with more flashing lights and Japanese people.

Las Vegas actually does well-thought out city planning, something I cannot even imagine being done in Thailand.

I'm willing you wouldn't even be able to get inside unless you showed evidence of at least [insert arbitrary amount here] in cash. Dark Thai nationals, of course, will continued to be treated like $hit.

[thohts]

It does seem absurd that the wealthier Thais go and lose their wealth in Poi Pet, Cambodia. Better they lose it in Bangkok, and boost a Thai company's profits.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's assuming that only Thai entities will own Thai casinos, and Cambodian entities own Cambodian casinos.

I believe the biggest casino in Macau is owned by an Australian or an American, if I'm not mistaken.

Would Thailand trust one of its own companies to "get it right"? BTS, anyone?

[Fast Eddie]

Most of the posts here refer to the 'money' (income) aspect of gambling.  Not nearly enough thought to the 'social' aspect.  I can tell you from experience; you don't want gambling near where you live.  You will see violent crime rise (many busted gamblers turn into criminals; they are desperate and will take you down).  Many people who were 'just getting by' will now be added to the list of 'street beggars'. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I live in the u.k and gambling is legal. There are many bookmakers and casinos within a short drive of where i live, yet there does not appear to be all these desperate gambling criminals trying to take me down in the city in which i live, nor is there this legion of 'street beggars' created by gambling.

By and large in the u.k the vast majority of people are able to enjoy there gambling recreationally without ruining their lives. I see no reason to believe that the majority of Thais are incapable of being responsible themselves.

Admittedly some individuals get themselves into trouble, but as things stand, those who are desperate to throw away their money gambling, can do so in Thailand, i doubt the presence of a legal casino is going to send the thai population over the edge.

You can't prevent people from gambling with each other, and if the government can profit from the operation of casinos or even ultimately legalising gambling, then they should definately consider it. The money they make can be put into sorting out the social problems which are in existence anyway.

[Voo Doo]

Personally, I feel free individuals should have the right to do whatever they want, excepting violence against others. Thai people are gambling anyway, why shouldn't the Thai government get some more tax out of it?

My hope is that if Pattaya is to become the Thai Las Vegas, that the entertainment that develops becomes better than the current kathoey shows and Elvis impersonators. The real Las Vegas is much more than the gambling, there is also world class entertainment. Perhaps some creative entrepreneurs can follow that model, at least to a small degree.

Once you have seen one kathoey cabaret, you have seen them all!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well done!

Was straight to the point.

[johng]

Should Thailand legalise Casinos and inject much a much needed boost into the Tourist industry?

YES without a doubt.