Do Posters On Tv Forums Retain Copyright To Posts ?

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup,

Sent a message to the mods before about this, and had a response quite a while ago that responding mod would look into it. So we thought we'd raise the issue, here, again.

Please consider the hypothetical case that I and I post a link to a "true" story about something that happened in Chiang Mai to us personally, a long story, a story using, possibly, a story-teller's repertoire of narrative techniques, but still a story based on "facts." Or, if you will, consider a piece of original fiction or poem that was (hopefully) somehow relevant to a specific forum (like the Chiang Mai forum where we hang-in).

Does ThaiVisa or the Nation newspaper assert any form of rights of re-use or re-printing any "original" material on the forums by individual members ?

You can appreciate that to assert copyright in the "original work" might reveal our "real name," which we may not care to reveal.

Yes, this does sound pretty "academic" in the sense that when something is posted like that, anyone can "get away" with copying the text, and doing whatever they want with it.

But, we're still curious.

thanks for your time ! ~o:37;

[SpoliaOpima]

Of course you retain copyright, same as on any public forum. No forum can take away your copyright.

Edited December 28, 2009 by SpoliaOpima

[markg]

Of course you retain copyright, same as on any public forum. No forum can take away your copyright.

I believe actually that the answer is 'no'.

I was quite surprised that a few months ago, i saw comments and a letter in one of the newspapers which were directly attributed to a post that i made on here. No permission was sought from me.

Edited December 28, 2009 by markg

[wayfarer108]

Of course you retain copyright, same as on any public forum. No forum can take away your copyright.

I believe actually that the answer is 'no'.

I was quite surprised that a few months ago, i saw comments and a letter in one of the newspapers which were directly attributed to a post that i made on here. No permission was sought from me.

You still retain copyright, so if someone infringes on that right, sue them.

[markg]

You still retain copyright, so if someone infringes on that right, sue them.

It was one of ThaiVisas newspaper partners.......................................

[jazzbo]

From the Forum Rules:

After you agree to the terms below... 22) Not to post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles).

So it would be kind of hard to assert copyright to material that you have posted when you have agreed in advance as Terms of Membership that you will not post any copyrighted materials...

There is also the matter of Copyright jurisdiction: In which country are you going to claim copyright privileges? ThaiVisa.com only claims that it is NOT operated in Thailand; and even if hosted and Corporate domiciled in Singapore, that could change tomorrow to Gibraltar or Monserrat.

[Mario2008]

From the forum rules:

When you post in any forum on ThaiVisa, you are granting a license to Thaivisa.com to display that post publicly

[jazzbo]

Kuhn M. -- In the USA and I would guess many other countries, you could grant to some entity a license to 'display publicly' without relinquishing Copyright privileges. Item 22. basically says that any material a Member might post is in fact NOT copyrighted material so it all becomes a moot point if the member then in arrears claims some privilege to Copyright.

[LivinLOS]

From the forum rules:

When you post in any forum on ThaiVisa, you are granting a license to Thaivisa.com to display that post publicly

But isnt that key.. I grant 'thaivisa.com' the right to display that post publicly.. Not the nation, not mirrored content anywhere other than ThaiVisa.com. ??

[orang37]

From the Forum Rules:

After you agree to the terms below... 22) Not to post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles).

So it would be kind of hard to assert copyright to material that you have posted when you have agreed in advance as Terms of Membership that you will not post any copyrighted materials...

There is also the matter of Copyright jurisdiction: In which country are you going to claim copyright privileges? ThaiVisa.com only claims that it is NOT operated in Thailand; and even if hosted and Corporate domiciled in Singapore, that could change tomorrow to Gibraltar or Monserrat.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Jazzbo, and other posters on this thread.

Thanks for the quote from the "terms" : we've been searching the site, trying to find the terms, and have not found them.

The intent of our original question was focused more on possible re-printing inside Thailand by the Nation newspaper, but : unless we know the details of the business contractual relationship between ThaiVisa and the Nation we may not have a full picture. Has that been publicly disclosed ?

We're not familiar with Thai copyright law or whether Thailand is a signatory to whatever international treaties in the area of copyright law.

Another issue : if we are posting under an assumed name, and don't reveal our "real name," would assertion of copyright be invalid under those circumstances.

thanks again for your responses, ~o:37;

[harrry]

I would be interested in the answer to this as I consider I own the copyright to my posts giving Thai Visa the right to display them but retaining all other rights. Copyright impli]es the right not to have posts altered and TV is currently doing this by interposing google adds which appear to be part of ourposts when a user is logged in as Guest. They have stopped doing this when a user is logged in as user,. This has been questioned before but TV has not deigned to answer.

[jazzbo]

I found the # 22. Term posted at : http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html

as I consider I own the copyright to my posts giving Thai Visa the right to display them but retaining all other rights.

You very well may own the copyright to anything you write but you basically have assigned or forfeited that right because you have agreed as part of your Membership Agreement that anything that you DO post is in fact not copyrighted material by you or anyone else excluding fair use exceptions...

So my simple answer is: If you want to maintain your Copyright privileges on any material that you may write, don't post it here; start your own blog where you can retain such rights... and I am familiar with Copyright Law both International (Berne) Conventions, WIPO, and individual country provisions including Thailand particularly as relates to Copyright exceptions for visual and other print disability.

[Harcourt]

I found the # 22. Term posted at : http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html

as I consider I own the copyright to my posts giving Thai Visa the right to display them but retaining all other rights.

You very well may own the copyright to anything you write but you basically have assigned or forfeited that right because you have agreed as part of your Membership Agreement that anything that you DO post is in fact not copyrighted material by you or anyone else excluding fair use exceptions...

So my simple answer is: If you want to maintain your Copyright privileges on any material that you may write, don't post it here; start your own blog where you can retain such rights... and I am familiar with Copyright Law both International (Berne) Conventions, WIPO, and individual country provisions including Thailand particularly as relates to Copyright exceptions for visual and other print disability.

I suggest that the rule to not post any copyrighted material is so that members do not breach copyright in posting someone else's material. I do not think it implies that any material posted does not belong to the poster thereafter.

[Mossfinn]

I suggest that the rule to not post any copyrighted material is so that members do not breach copyright in posting someone else's material.

There isn't a problem with posting other's material, I used to do it a lot in the Visa forum, particularly from Scouse & Vinny, simply because you knew it to be the Gold Standard.

As for other material outside of the forum, I still see no problem, as long as it is sourced and credited, apart from certain media outlets that have prohibited links.

[SpoliaOpima]

From the forum rules:

When you post in any forum on ThaiVisa, you are granting a license to Thaivisa.com to display that post publicly

You still retain copyright. A license to use material does not constitute copyright ownership. When I write a book, I also license the publisher to print and distribute the material. I do not give them the copyright. Look it up

[SpoliaOpima]

I found the # 22. Term posted at : http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html

as I consider I own the copyright to my posts giving Thai Visa the right to display them but retaining all other rights.

You very well may own the copyright to anything you write but you basically have assigned or forfeited that right because you have agreed as part of your Membership Agreement that anything that you DO post is in fact not copyrighted material by you or anyone else excluding fair use exceptions...

So my simple answer is: If you want to maintain your Copyright privileges on any material that you may write, don't post it here; start your own blog where you can retain such rights... and I am familiar with Copyright Law both International (Berne) Conventions, WIPO, and individual country provisions including Thailand particularly as relates to Copyright exceptions for visual and other print disability.

I suggest that the rule to not post any copyrighted material is so that members do not breach copyright in posting someone else's material. I do not think it implies that any material posted does not belong to the poster thereafter.

Yes, obviously. I imagine most mods here don't know much about copyright law, but I'm sure the admins do

[jazzbo]

Whatever written agreements may occur between you and you prospective publisher, when you post something on ThaiVisa.com you have signed an agreement that nothing you will post is subject to copyright -- and I at least read that to be YOURS or anyone else's -- except as 'fair use' applies...

When I write a book, I also license the publisher to print and distribute the material. I do not give them the copyright. Fine; but you also did not sign as part of the license to the publisher that the book is not subject to copyright provisions. And if you have written a 100 page book under Copyright in one or more countries and you decide to post a 3 or 4 paragraph excerpt or even 10% of the total book on ThaiVisa.com, that is 'fair use' and you certainly do not relinquish any copyright privileges by doing so.

Edited December 30, 2009 by jazzbo

[orang37]

Whatever written agreements may occur between you and you prospective publisher, when you post something on ThaiVisa.com you have signed an agreement that nothing you will post is subject to copyright -- and I at least read that to be YOURS or anyone else's -- except as 'fair use' applies...

When I write a book, I also license the publisher to print and distribute the material. I do not give them the copyright. Fine; but you also did not sign as part of the license to the publisher that the book is not subject to copyright provisions. And if you have written a 100 page book under Copyright in one or more countries and you decide to post a 3 or 4 paragraph excerpt or even 10% of the total book on ThaiVisa.com, that is 'fair use' and you certainly do not relinquish any copyright privileges by doing so.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Jazzbo, and Happy New Year (Sawasdee Pi Mai Farang),

Perhaps the only "solution" here is to provide a link in a message on TV to material that is copyrighted with the assertion in the message that the link is to copyrighted material and that by clicking on it, the reader agrees to respect the copyright, and by allowing the message to be posted on TV, TV implicitly acknowledges and respects the copyright ? Of course, the "problem" with that is : I think you would then have to reveal your "real name" in the copyrighted material (?).

Particularly appreciate having someone respond who is familiar with copyright law, but thanks to all who responded.

By the way, a friend of mine PM'd me yesterday, and said there was some "abusive" post towards moi on this thread : but I don't see anything abusive here now, and I certainly have no "negative intention" toward ThaiVisa in starting this post : I really like ThaiVisa, and find it a wonderful resource, and I frequently express my admiration for it, and the moderators volunteer efforts.

So if you are reading this, and really think there's something abusive in my words or in the nature of this topic, some "negative intent," please do PM me, and help me understand that.

I wonder if there is a difference, legally, between "signing' a formal, witnessed, binding, legal contract in which you assign, transfer (or forfeit), etc. your copyright of original material, and joining an on-line forum where the only specific stipulation vis-a-vis copyright is one that can have varying interpretations.

Again, my interest here is pretty "narrow" in scope : I'd like to know :

1. does the Nation newspaper have any reprint writes, or fair use rights to material here because of its business relationship with ThaiVisa ?

2. do the owners of ThaiVisa ever intend (or do they consider themselves to have the "rights") to re-publish material posted here on public forums in any form without explicit permission from the authors (for whom, they, after, all do possess "real" e-mail addresses for).

From my point of view, anything I post on the Chiang Mai forum is, of course, fair game for re-posting on another part of ThaiVisa.

These questions should not be hard to answer, I think.

There is a practical dimension to this, for me, I will mention, however : I am not currently willing to share on the Chiang Mai forum some things I've written which are directly related to Chiang Mai, based on experiences I've had in Chiang Mai; essays, stories, which may reflect more than a few years of serious study of northern Thai folklore, history, customs, religious iconography, anthropology, etc., and some very humorous personal experiences.

One day, I may wish these "stories" to go into a book, so : as much as I'd like to share them ... try them out, so to speak ... with my TV Chiang Mai friends ... perhaps enjoy their feedback ... I hold back because I don't want them excerpted, edited, or used in the future without my permission, or re-printed without the "footnotes" that would be included, the comments on sources, etc.

thanks, ~o:37;

[MarkBKK]

As for other material outside of the forum, I still see no problem, as long as it is sourced and credited, apart from certain media outlets that have prohibited links.

That seems to be the opinion of most posters on Thai Visa.

And of course it is completely wrong. The exact opposite of reality, in fact.

Apart from the very, very few sources of material (words, images, etc) that explicitly give permission for their material to be copied/re-used/re-published, or sources such as The Nation (with which Thai Visa has an arrangement), and ignoring ''fair use'' for the moment, then no amount of ''sourcing'' or ''crediting'' will get you around the fact that posting something you have copied from somewhere is stealing.

Theft, plain and simple.

''Fair use'' is also a misunderstood term. It covers things like quoting a book in a book review, or posting a head and a couple of sentences and a link to a news story.

[jazzbo]

If I were a writer of a large amount of material for which I wanted to maintain 100% copyright control, I would NOT post it on ThaiVisa.com. I would set up a website or blog and use the 'Viewing Profile' function where it is perfectly acceptable to set up a link to your website on the 'Personal Statement... Visit My Website.' which I have done.

[SpoliaOpima]

If I were a writer of a large amount of material for which I wanted to maintain 100% copyright control, I would NOT post it on ThaiVisa.com. I would set up a website or blog and use the 'Viewing Profile' function where it is perfectly acceptable to set up a link to your website on the 'Personal Statement... Visit My Website.' which I have done.

Exactly.

[orang37]

If I were a writer of a large amount of material for which I wanted to maintain 100% copyright control, I would NOT post it on ThaiVisa.com. I would set up a website or blog and use the 'Viewing Profile' function where it is perfectly acceptable to set up a link to your website on the 'Personal Statement... Visit My Website.' which I have done.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Jazzbo,

Again, thanks for responding ! That suggestion would also involve revealing our "real name," I'm afraid.

This makes me wonder how copyright is handled for authors who do publish using "nom de plumes" : perhaps in those cases the copyright is in the name of the publishing company ?

best, ~o:37;

[Mossfinn]

As for other material outside of the forum, I still see no problem, as long as it is sourced and credited, apart from certain media outlets that have prohibited links.

That seems to be the opinion of most posters on Thai Visa.

And of course it is completely wrong. The exact opposite of reality, in fact.

Apart from the very, very few sources of material (words, images, etc) that explicitly give permission for their material to be copied/re-used/re-published, or sources such as The Nation (with which Thai Visa has an arrangement), and ignoring ''fair use'' for the moment, then no amount of ''sourcing'' or ''crediting'' will get you around the fact that posting something you have copied from somewhere is stealing.

Theft, plain and simple.

''Fair use'' is also a misunderstood term. It covers things like quoting a book in a book review, or posting a head and a couple of sentences and a link to a news story.

OK Mark, that is your opinion.

My particular opinion is that fair use is an acceptable provision as long as it is credited and the source identified and that authors of articles would be more than pleased to see their work further advertised.

However, you appear very strong in your conviction, so I am a little surprised you have not quoted any copyright law, Thai, or otherwise, so for my benefit, is there any chance of a link to prove and qualify your opinion, so I can review mine and adjust it if necessary.

Many thanks

Moss

[MarkBKK]

As for other material outside of the forum, I still see no problem, as long as it is sourced and credited, apart from certain media outlets that have prohibited links.

That seems to be the opinion of most posters on Thai Visa.

And of course it is completely wrong. The exact opposite of reality, in fact.

Apart from the very, very few sources of material (words, images, etc) that explicitly give permission for their material to be copied/re-used/re-published, or sources such as The Nation (with which Thai Visa has an arrangement), and ignoring ''fair use'' for the moment, then no amount of ''sourcing'' or ''crediting'' will get you around the fact that posting something you have copied from somewhere is stealing.

Theft, plain and simple.

''Fair use'' is also a misunderstood term. It covers things like quoting a book in a book review, or posting a head and a couple of sentences and a link to a news story.

OK Mark, that is your opinion.

My particular opinion is that fair use is an acceptable provision as long as it is credited and the source identified and that authors of articles would be more than pleased to see their work further advertised.

However, you appear very strong in your conviction, so I am a little surprised you have not quoted any copyright law, Thai, or otherwise, so for my benefit, is there any chance of a link to prove and qualify your opinion, so I can review mine and adjust it if necessary.

Many thanks

Moss

Actually, it's not my opinion at all. If you knew anything about the subject, or did any research at all, you would realise that it was the law in most countries. I really can't be bothered to educate you on the subject, after all, I'm not being paid to do so.

And of course, you're entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be. Gosh, ''authors of articles would be more than pleased to see their work further advertised'' ... you really never have worked in the media, have you? That's why writers write ... just to see their name in print. Not to pay the mortgage. No, of course not. That's why publishers publish the words they've paid someone to write and to surrender their copyright to. Not to make money ... maybe for some altruistic reason like saving the planet, or letting you steal their property.

Yeah, right.

Silly billy.

[polecat]

You´re very cute when you´re angry.

Edited January 1, 2010 by polecat

[Mossfinn]

You´re very cute when you´re angry.

Bless him.

I think I might respond when I have less time

[Johnnydee22]

Actually, it's not my opinion at all. If you knew anything about the subject, or did any research at all, you would realise that it was the law in most countries. I really can't be bothered to educate you on the subject, after all, I'm not being paid to do so.

And of course, you're entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be. Gosh, ''authors of articles would be more than pleased to see their work further advertised'' ... you really never have worked in the media, have you? That's why writers write ... just to see their name in print. Not to pay the mortgage. No, of course not. That's why publishers publish the words they've paid someone to write and to surrender their copyright to. Not to make money ... maybe for some altruistic reason like saving the planet, or letting you steal their property.

Yeah, right.

Silly billy.

Wow. That's arrogant! A polite request to see if you can back up your opinions with a citation leads to a name calling ( silly Billy) and an enlarged argument about wholesale theft of written works. Mark you seem to be perceiving the other guys here as disrespecting the rights of aothors. They aren't Google Books you know. They are quoting other posters and writers and you can't persuade them it's wrong by an argument from

authority. Mossfinn has spotted your fallacy, can you do more than state 'cos I said so?'

[monkfish]

Very interesting question and leads me to another related question what about photos?

I often post photos on in the Photography thread on TV, does this give TV automatic right to reprint in there newspaper without permission??

and to which extent do we give up our copyrights by posting stuff on TV?

[Mossfinn]

Actually, it's not my opinion at all.

Without any kind of verified source, that is exactly what it is.

If you knew anything about the subject, or did any research at all, you would realise that it was the law in most countries.

What exactly is the law in most countries, it is my understanding that copyright law has many variations in most countries.

I really can't be bothered to educate you on the subject

Hmmmmm

, after all, I'm not being paid to do so.

[Mossfinn]

But you are being paid to make unsubstantiated posts

Gosh, ''authors of articles would be more than pleased to see their work further advertised'' ... you really never have worked in the media, have you? That's why writers write ... just to see their name in print. Not to pay the mortgage. No, of course not. That's why publishers publish the words they've paid someone to write and to surrender their copyright to. Not to make money ... maybe for some altruistic reason like saving the planet, or letting you steal their property.

Yeah, right.

My point was that recycled articles help to raise the profile of individual writers outside of their usual environment, the more air time, the greater the masses receive the word, which can lead to greater fame, or in certain cases notoriety, if it puts more bums on seats, or page turners and as their mortgage is already being paid, it might, just might lead to a bigger house

And of course, you're entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be.

:D

Silly billy.

I have been called worse, but generally in better context