All-out Attempt By Red Shirts To Bring Down Government

[scorecard]

Tis an election to see who the people want - not you or I - and all the bleating and hero worship of those who take over airports and help ruin the Thai economy for a few years won't mean a jot! let the people decide - still there have been some hilarious posts on here in favour of the Canaries... talk about twisting things and smearing those who may not agree... disgraceful actually.

Pot, kettle? A selection of your posts on this thread alone...

Post 25: "How naive this post is - I will say this you will be very hard pressed to find any support for Yellows up here - all the Thais I know are Red (but don't attend rallies). Bring on an election and you will see how much Yellow support there really is - but of course they won't do that."

Post 28: "Only one way to find out - hold an ELECTION"

Post 42: "...Anyway, when all’s said and done they should hold an election to give themselves legitimacy - if they win fair enough (which I doubt)."

Post 44: "haha - so lets not let them vote right? maybe the black Americans in Chicago should not get the vote either? or the Aboriginies? maybe no one without a degree should get it either... Jeez - of course it was all the poors fault - how dare they be poor!!! and you think the Yellows dont take bribes huh? only one way out - election, election, election (a fair one of course)."

Post 73: "I actually like him (but dislike the yellows) he comes across as intelligent and articulate - but nothing will be resolved until he wins a mandate from the people by election (which is highly unlikely). When all is said and done many say things were much better under Thaksin - I am not a Thaksin apologist but there is little support here for the current government - mostly because people feel it was foisted upon them through the airport takeover etc. but TIT and we are guests."

Post 77: "what a pussy footed liberal PC response..."

Post 93: "you seem to live in an idealised 'western' mind-set - go live in PC friendly farangland not here... "

Post 169: "The basic, unalterable truth is... until an election is held (and a fair one if possible) there will be no peace in the Kingdom becaue people elected a red government - whichever way you look at it that is the truth and it was 'taken' from them - whether this was 'good' or 'bad' is not the point - I actually like Abhsit - hold an election."

Post 173: "let them decide who they want as the political landscape has changed. I bow to your superior knowldege of Parliamentary procedure but.. you would agree? an election? to decide? bring peace? fair and square? (the last point is mute i know). "

Post 180: "Hold an election and find out... who knows? why fears democracy? of course we all know the answer... people do not always vote the ways that pseudo intellectual’s want them to..."

Post 181: "My hero? that's an insult and typical of your type... of course YOU are superior in every way right? YOU know what's good for the Thai people right? I actually have many misgivings about Thaksin and your coating of me is puerile and immature rhetoric - I simply comment -you simply condemn and wallow in your intellectual superiority – don’t worry it shines through – loud and clear!"

Let's see, "election, election" interspersed with comments on opposing posters intellect and bold statements about "the truth" and how Thaksin was so good, not that you support him of course, without any facts to back any of this up, other than "I talked to some people in Chiang Mai once". No rebuttal, or criticism, of any points made by opposing posters, other than said abuse. A number of posters on this thread have said why they feel elections are not the answer at this point, maybe you could enlighten us as to why you think they are, giving an explanation of how they would be achieved fairly in the current political climate? Although having said that, you do go from saying they should be fair "of course" in post 44, to saying they should be fair "if possible" in post 169. So you now just want an election, no matter if fair or not?

What a load of crap. You have carefully selected posts which you think support your view rather than a balanced selection of posts. Plus you have added words and comment which is blatantly untrue and misleading.

I don't but your argument for one moment.

[ballpoint]

What a load of crap. You have carefully selected posts which you think support your view rather than a balanced selection of posts. Plus you have added words and comment which is blatantly untrue and misleading.

I don't but your argument for one moment.

Balanced? These are all posts by ChiangMaiFun. He accused others of smearing those who don't agree with them, and called it disgraceful. He has also accused others of making puerile posts which were a joke. All I needed to do to prove my "pot calling the kettle black" point was find one post in which he attacked the poster, and not what was said, or made a comment with no backing facts. I found many. Nothing "blatantly untrue" or "misleading" about it, it's all there in black and white. Unless you're accusing me of making his posts up? Point proved I think. Anyone who can't tell the difference between criticism and rebuttal of what someone has said, using facts to support it, and a personal attack on another poster, needs be asking themselves what they are really doing here on TV.

Edited January 20, 2010 by ballpoint

[rixalex]

But that's not what you said.You said many pro-red members tend to come from Chiangmai and possibly hold Thaksin in reverence for that reason. (I paraphrase)

Yes, you are correct jayboy. That is what i was saying. I'm in no doubt that there are a higher number of red sympathisers on this forum hailing from the Chaing Mai area - certainly more than from areas like Bangkok or the south. Whether or not i'm correct in my guess that the reason for this clustering of support has something to do with Thaksin being local and popular with a number of the locals of this area i accept is purely a guess.

As to taking a pro-Red stance that's generally my position and that of many others.

Some refreshing honesty. Well done.

I also happen to hold Thaksin in contempt though often argue the case for his significance as a catalyst.

I for one don't question your position on Thaksin.

I wouldn't bother normally responding to this kind of nonsense except that it's quite important to stress the red ranks are increasingly including believers in democracy but who have no truck with Thaksin.

If that is the case they would do well to start their own pressure group, because no matter what they each individually happen to believe, no matter how good their intentions, they will always simply be tools of Thaksin, all the while they are supporters of the red movement.

[rixalex]

The "large number" is....... one ? Since you invite a statement of the obvious, a list would provide some evidence to back up your statement. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; so, your declining to provide any evidence is, obviously enough, not proof either way.......... but people will draw their own conclusions.

I've already stated the reason Steve why i don't want to get drawn into giving a list of members on this forum from Chaing Mai who take a pro-red stance - that being that it would simply result in a personal flame-fest. If you don't accept the reason i give and consider my failure to comply with your demands of naming names as being proof of what you believe then fine. This isn't a court of law. Simply people stating their opinions.

Out of interest, what is it exactly about my assertion that you disagree with? That there are a significant number of Chaing Mai based members of this forum who sympathise with the red's cause? Or that the reason they sympathise has anything to do with it also being Thaksin's home ground? Both perhaps? Do tell.

So, I'm inclined to think that the bar of what constitutes "pro red stance" is set very differently by some and is thus far from "pretty clear" - hence my request for your definition. Up to you if you also decline to provide that.

What is far from being "pretty clear" is what on earth you are going on about here.

"Pro red stance" is.... "pro red stance", funnily enough. Not sure how i can make that any clearer for you.

[rixalex]

What a load of crap. You have carefully selected posts which you think support your view rather than a balanced selection of posts. Plus you have added words and comment which is blatantly untrue and misleading.

I don't but your argument for one moment.

Balanced? These are all posts by ChiangMaiFun.

Looks to me like gremlins in the system. scorecard's comments seem to have been posted by someone else.

[Dustybin]

Saying it over and over doesn't make it any more sensible Dustbin. The government is there legitimately, like it or not, they have not broken the law...while you are a broken record.

The government was formed from the barrel of a gun, no legitimacy there.

The same gun that is the law.

Not a broken record, a historical record.

Many crimes have been commited, but not according to the law.

[ballpoint]

The government was formed from the barrel of a gun, no legitimacy there.

The same gun that is the law.

Not a broken record, a historical record.

Many crimes have been commited, but not according to the law.

So why not give us the facts as you see them, rather than repeatedly posting the same stuff on every thread?

What exactly do you mean by this government being formed from the barrel of a gun? What crimes have been commited?

Not since the days of Koo has someone posted so much, but said so little.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Tis an election to see who the people want - not you or I - and all the bleating and hero worship of those who take over airports and help ruin the Thai economy for a few years won't mean a jot! let the people decide - still there have been some hilarious posts on here in favour of the Canaries... talk about twisting things and smearing those who may not agree... disgraceful actually.

Pot, kettle? A selection of your posts on this thread alone...

Post 25: "How naive this post is - I will say this you will be very hard pressed to find any support for Yellows up here - all the Thais I know are Red (but don't attend rallies). Bring on an election and you will see how much Yellow support there really is - but of course they won't do that."

Post 28: "Only one way to find out - hold an ELECTION"

Post 42: "...Anyway, when all's said and done they should hold an election to give themselves legitimacy - if they win fair enough (which I doubt)."

Post 44: "haha - so lets not let them vote right? maybe the black Americans in Chicago should not get the vote either? or the Aboriginies? maybe no one without a degree should get it either... Jeez - of course it was all the poors fault - how dare they be poor!!! and you think the Yellows dont take bribes huh? only one way out - election, election, election (a fair one of course)."

Post 73: "I actually like him (but dislike the yellows) he comes across as intelligent and articulate - but nothing will be resolved until he wins a mandate from the people by election (which is highly unlikely). When all is said and done many say things were much better under Thaksin - I am not a Thaksin apologist but there is little support here for the current government - mostly because people feel it was foisted upon them through the airport takeover etc. but TIT and we are guests."

Post 77: "what a pussy footed liberal PC response..."

Post 93: "you seem to live in an idealised 'western' mind-set - go live in PC friendly farangland not here... "

Post 169: "The basic, unalterable truth is... until an election is held (and a fair one if possible) there will be no peace in the Kingdom becaue people elected a red government - whichever way you look at it that is the truth and it was 'taken' from them - whether this was 'good' or 'bad' is not the point - I actually like Abhsit - hold an election."

Post 173: "let them decide who they want as the political landscape has changed. I bow to your superior knowldege of Parliamentary procedure but.. you would agree? an election? to decide? bring peace? fair and square? (the last point is mute i know). "

Post 180: "Hold an election and find out... who knows? why fears democracy? of course we all know the answer... people do not always vote the ways that pseudo intellectual's want them to..."

Post 181: "My hero? that's an insult and typical of your type... of course YOU are superior in every way right? YOU know what's good for the Thai people right? I actually have many misgivings about Thaksin and your coating of me is puerile and immature rhetoric - I simply comment -you simply condemn and wallow in your intellectual superiority – don't worry it shines through – loud and clear!"

Let's see, "election, election" interspersed with comments on opposing posters intellect and bold statements about "the truth" and how Thaksin was so good, not that you support him of course, without any facts to back any of this up, other than "I talked to some people in Chiang Mai once". No rebuttal, or criticism, of any points made by opposing posters, other than said abuse. A number of posters on this thread have said why they feel elections are not the answer at this point, maybe you could enlighten us as to why you think they are, giving an explanation of how they would be achieved fairly in the current political climate? Although having said that, you do go from saying they should be fair "of course" in post 44, to saying they should be fair "if possible" in post 169. So you now just want an election, no matter if fair or not?

Refreshing that someone read my posts so carefully and took the time to cut 'n' paste them again - nice to know that you care... *sigh* you are funny... and so simple minded - it's almost endearing - you must be an American Rebublican right? - I'm right aren't I? a George Bush supporter? go on admit it...

[yoshiwara]

they will always simply be tools of Thaksin,

They know it.

Everybody else in Bangkok is just waiting for the next round of Red thuggery to blow sometime between now and Feb 26.

Did somebody say guns?

[Insight]

Refreshing that someone read my posts so carefully and took the time to cut 'n' paste them again - nice to know that you care... *sigh* you are funny... and so simple minded - it's almost endearing - you must be an American Rebublican right? - I'm right aren't I? a George Bush supporter? go on admit it...

Worst. Comeback. Ever.

[ballpoint]

Refreshing that someone read my posts so carefully and took the time to cut 'n' paste them again - nice to know that you care... *sigh* you are funny... and so simple minded - it's almost endearing - you must be an American Rebublican right? - I'm right aren't I? a George Bush supporter? go on admit it...

Yes, I do care. And once again you dodge the questions and resort to personal attacks. Why not try giving us some reasons for your views for once, rather than spewing out the same old stuff? Myself and a number of others have asked you to tell us how elections should be arranged and what you hope they'd ultimately achieve. We're still waiting your response. And, why not try and learn the difference between disagreeing with a post, and giving reasons for it, and attacking the poster? Try to be a little less thin skinned. You'll enjoy it here a whole lot more if you do.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Refreshing that someone read my posts so carefully and took the time to cut 'n' paste them again - nice to know that you care... *sigh* you are funny... and so simple minded - it's almost endearing - you must be an American Rebublican right? - I'm right aren't I? a George Bush supporter? go on admit it...

Yes, I do care. And once again you dodge the questions and resort to personal attacks. Why not try giving us some reasons for your views for once, rather than spewing out the same old stuff? Myself and a number of others have asked you to tell us how elections should be arranged and what you hope they'd ultimately achieve. We're still waiting your response. And, why not try and learn the difference between disagreeing with a post, and giving reasons for it, and attacking the poster? Try to be a little less thin skinned. You'll enjoy it here a whole lot more if you do.

Firstly... (and my comments were 'tongue in cheek' I can take banter and hope you can too) you selectively culled my posts when I have actually said two times that I like Abhsit. My point, made several times, is that it is not for you not I too ''decide' what is right or wrong but for the 'people' and sorry.... that means elections. You may not agree or disagree with the outcomes - but there you have it it's democracy - the problem with democracy is that sometimes the 'wrong' guys get in - a nuisance I know.

The point is, I pointed out, that many Thai's believe that the government is not 'elected' - noe before you start to shout about 'legitimacý' it may be legal but it's not moral - and as for insults I have been called many things on this yellow thread just because I stand up for democracy and elections - I am not a Thaksin supporter (particularly) but I am probably more red than yellow and hate the concept of yellow fellows hijacking the 'high ground' in the debate by abusing all other views as 'Thaksin stooges'. You do not highlight all the canary posts on this thread who abuse some of us who may - Heaven Forbid! disagree... and, for the record, I do NOT support violence, by any colour Red, Yellow, Blue nor Purple...

[geriatrickid]

Good piece there ChiangMaiFun. Well written. Brace yourself for a rebuke.

[ballpoint]

Good piece there ChiangMaiFun. Well written. Brace yourself for a rebuke.

Well, last time I looked, this was a forum. Someone posts their thoughts, and hopefully gives reasons for them. Someone else gives a rebuttal, and hopefully their reasons for that rebuttal. If I say "this is that and that is this", I'm not going to be upset when someone else says "no, this is this and that is that". (But it does appear that many here do take offence to anyone disagreeing with them). If they give no reason then I will ask why they think that. If they give a reason I disagree with I will say why I disagree with it. Nothing personal, a fact sadly missed by a number of posters here. I couldn't really care less what someone who doesn't know me thinks and writes about me on a public forum, but I am interested in the thinking behind what they write (the non personal attack part).

[Steve2UK]

Well, last time I looked, this was a forum. Someone posts their thoughts, and hopefully gives reasons for them. Someone else gives a rebuttal, and hopefully their reasons for that rebuttal. If I say "this is that and that is this", I'm not going to be upset when someone else says "no, this is this and that is that". (But it does appear that many here do take offence to anyone disagreeing with them). If they give no reason then I will ask why they think that. If they give a reason I disagree with I will say why I disagree with it. Nothing personal, a fact sadly missed by a number of posters here. I couldn't really care less what someone who doesn't know me thinks and writes about me on a public forum, but I am interested in the thinking behind what they write (the non personal attack part).

Excellent points made (as opposed to scored) and well put.

[rixalex]

My point, made several times, is that it is not for you not I too ''decide' what is right or wrong but for the 'people' and sorry.... that means elections.

Everyone (i think) agrees with that but the point here is that you are demanding there be elections now.

Why?

We have already established that the current government is every bit as legal and legitimate as the ones that came before it, no matter what some people's perception might be. That's the bottom line, that's the fact. It's therefore the government's decision when they call an election. You, nor anybody else, has the right to demand one now. There are no grounds for that. All there is is a group of people unhappy because it so happens their "team" isn't in power right now. And guess what - if their "team" fails to win the next election, they'll be calling for another one... and another one.. and another one... until such time as they are in power. That's how it works. Tell your in-laws.

[Samuian]

Refreshing that someone read my posts so carefully and took the time to cut 'n' paste them again - nice to know that you care... *sigh* you are funny... and so simple minded - it's almost endearing - you must be an American Rebublican right? - I'm right aren't I? a George Bush supporter? go on admit it...

Yes, I do care. And once again you dodge the questions and resort to personal attacks. Why not try giving us some reasons for your views for once, rather than spewing out the same old stuff? Myself and a number of others have asked you to tell us how elections should be arranged and what you hope they'd ultimately achieve. We're still waiting your response. And, why not try and learn the difference between disagreeing with a post, and giving reasons for it, and attacking the poster? Try to be a little less thin skinned. You'll enjoy it here a whole lot more if you do.

Firstly... (and my comments were 'tongue in cheek' I can take banter and hope you can too) you selectively culled my posts when I have actually said two times that I like Abhsit. My point, made several times, is that it is not for you not I too ''decide' what is right or wrong but for the 'people' and sorry.... that means elections. You may not agree or disagree with the outcomes - but there you have it it's democracy - the problem with democracy is that sometimes the 'wrong' guys get in - a nuisance I know.

The point is, I pointed out, that many Thai's believe that the government is not 'elected' - noe before you start to shout about 'legitimacý' it may be legal but it's not moral - and as for insults I have been called many things on this yellow thread just because I stand up for democracy and elections - I am not a Thaksin supporter (particularly) but I am probably more red than yellow and hate the concept of yellow fellows hijacking the 'high ground' in the debate by abusing all other views as 'Thaksin stooges'. You do not highlight all the canary posts on this thread who abuse some of us who may - Heaven Forbid! disagree... and, for the record, I do NOT support violence, by any colour Red, Yellow, Blue nor Purple...

Excerpt from above post:

" ....many Thai's believe that the government is not 'elected"

... well, you are right in the starkest sense of the point: "...not elected"... not elected by newly called elections, there was no need for it, cause this, Democrat led coalition government has been simply newly formed out of the MP's who have been elected once!

This happens anywhere in real democracies!

Is this all you are trying to push your agenda with?

And who are exactly the "...many Thais.." - the ones who "fight for genuine Democracy" or the ones fighting against "Dictatorship"?

Having to resort to all sorts of violence and threats of it, firing M79 Grenade into the Army's HQ - "accidentally hitting the "coffee kitchen" of Anupongs Office?

yeah, yeah I know, there haven't been any arrest's YET!

But many indicators point into the direction of someone who doesn't make much fuss about his stance: Khattiya Sawasdipol, alias Seh Daeng....and what is his nickname besides "Seh Daeng"? It resembles a fictitous Hero impersonated by some ctor known as Sylvester Stallone...

I would wholeheartedly agree anytime, if this was genuinely about "genuine Democracy" and not some people trying to force an agenda to simply unsettle, better overthrow the government, who are on the payroll of a very prominent former politician, who happen to lose much more then his caretaker job he was relieved off and who keeps denying if asked, but brag's on about his support for "genuine supporters of genuine democracy" he himself once branded as a "democracy one can eat"!?!

It's all so simple, isn't it, one has just to watch, who is who!

[Steve2UK]

<snip>

Out of interest, what is it exactly about my assertion that you disagree with? That there are a significant number of Chaing Mai based members of this forum who sympathise with the red's cause? Or that the reason they sympathise has anything to do with it also being Thaksin's home ground? Both perhaps? Do tell.

<snip>

I see no correlation between where members live and their views for/against/indifferent to any of the issues raised on TVF - except interest in local eateries etc. Regarding any members based in Chiang Mai that might happen to "sympathise with the red's cause", I see no evidence for "it also being Thaksin's home ground" having anything whatever to do with their views. Come to that, I do struggle to think of a reason why it would have any effect; something in the water? exposure to a red bacillus? peer pressure from Thai partners and friends dragooned/brainwashed/bribed into being "pro red"? Still no evidence of ("large" or now "significant") numbers and likewise no rationale as to a cause for what hasn't even been demonstrated.

A fanciful few on TVF lately seem intent on painting CM as some kind of red "fortress Chiang Mai" - an ongoing political maelstrom of a place overrun with red-clad goons......e.g. "who would want to visit RED Central HQ in the current political climate?", "Until 'great leader for life' Takki is taken care of, I will continue to warn people about venturing to that area", "Chiang Mai is now separated from Bangkok and Thailand, in the hands of goons, thugs and other assorted insurrectionists. Why are tourists now going to visit a city controlled by violent minded anti government factions?", "I would not feel safe there in the present climate. Not for any extended visit, pop in pop out maybe. And not if I had any schedule to keep" etc etc. It's a challenge for those actually living here to reconcile such stuff with the rather humdrum facts of our real rather than their imagined CM daily life - even for those in CM who are conspicuously anything but "pro red". Regardless of stance, I've seen CM-based members (in parallel with most others living elsewhere) roundly condemning intimidation of and actual violence towards visiting politicians, a gay parade etc - both in the CM sub-forum as well as in News Clippings etc. My conclusion overall - member location is not a factor; ignorance of the actual local situation combined with a fertile imagination and usually an agenda to drive probably is a factor.

[Jingthing]

I see no correlation between where members live and their views for/against/indifferent to any of the issues raised on TVF

I have. Especially among the members here living in Isaan. Definitely more of a pro red crowd there, not too hard to imagine why.

[rixalex]

I see no correlation between where members live and their views for/against/indifferent to any of the issues raised on TVF

I have.

As have I.

It's a known fact that there happens to be more red support amongst Thai people in certain areas (ie Isaan and Chiang Mai) for whatever reason, so not sure why Steve you seem so adamant that the same sort of pattern does not exist amongst foreigners living in those areas and posting here on TVF.

[Samuian]

I see no correlation between where members live and their views for/against/indifferent to any of the issues raised on TVF

I have. Especially among the members here living in Isaan. Definitely more of a pro red crowd there, not too hard to imagine why.

"Especially among the members here living in Isaan. Definitely more of a pro red crowd there, not too hard to imagine why"

Oopppsss... you mean... like it would be difficult if not impossible to keep up domestic peace and understanding if... it carries the signature of "genuine demo-crazy", genuinely, so!

I have a very similiar impression, as well as from other online platforms where these matters are discussed that there is a whole lot of truth to it, much more than many might be able or willing to admit!

difficult to imagine otherwise!

Edited January 21, 2010 by Samuian

[rixalex]

I've been on the receiving end of accusations of "Thaksin is your guy", "False-Flag Friend syndrome" and other such froth from a pair of the more loquacious posters here (thus far with zero evidence to back up any of it) and have also seen them and others slinging the accusation around

A fanciful few on TVF lately seem intent on painting CM as some kind of red "fortress Chiang Mai"

"froth from a pair of the more loquacious posters here " ???

" fanciful few on TVF " ???

In light of the derision you recently showed towards my unwillingness to name names, why are you yourself dancing around and avoiding stating exactly who this dastardly "pair" / "fanciful few" are? Spit it out man.

[way2muchcoffee]

A fanciful few on TVF lately seem intent on painting CM as some kind of red "fortress Chiang Mai" - an ongoing political maelstrom of a place overrun with red-clad goons......e.g. "who would want to visit RED Central HQ in the current political climate?", "Until 'great leader for life' Takki is taken care of, I will continue to warn people about venturing to that area", "Chiang Mai is now separated from Bangkok and Thailand, in the hands of goons, thugs and other assorted insurrectionists. Why are tourists now going to visit a city controlled by violent minded anti government factions?", "I would not feel safe there in the present climate. Not for any extended visit, pop in pop out maybe. And not if I had any schedule to keep" etc etc. It's a challenge for those actually living here to reconcile such stuff with the rather humdrum facts of our real rather than their imagined CM daily life - even for those in CM who are conspicuously anything but "pro red". Regardless of stance, I've seen CM-based members (in parallel with most others living elsewhere) roundly condemning intimidation of and actual violence towards visiting politicians, a gay parade etc - both in the CM sub-forum as well as in News Clippings etc. My conclusion overall - member location is not a factor; ignorance of the actual local situation combined with a fertile imagination and usually an agenda to drive probably is a factor.

The same could be said about BKK during the PAD Demonstrations, closure of the Swampy, and letter by the redshirt Songkhran riots. In most areas of the city life was like any other day. Only in certain areas would one have noticed something was amiss.

On the other hand Steve2UK, imagine that I, or just your average Thai person, chose to don a yellow t-shirt with pro PAD and harsh anti-Thaksin slogans on the front and back. We then proceeded to do a walking tour of CM for a few days. Then we went over to Udon Thani and did a walking tour there, sporting our hate Thaksin shirts. What are the chances we would encounter violence?

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Just about everyone I know, and that is a fair number, here in Chiang Mai - Thai and expat - object to the reds and the perception that hailing from Chiang Mai makes us red. However, I am also sure that there are plenty of like-minded reds who hang out together too. I don't, for instance, have any republican American friends, mine are mostly dems. Maybe it is just that like-minded people come together. The antics of the Rak Chiang Mai 51 have really made most of the people I know fed up of the whole 'democratic' movement. We just want it to all end and get on with things...like, I suspect, the majority of the population of Thailand. And no, I do not believe that an election shoulud be held anytime soon. The reds have pretty much bought up the votes here and the dems won't be allowed to come up to rally, so how is that fair?

[ChiangMaiFun]

Well, last time I looked, this was a forum. Someone posts their thoughts, and hopefully gives reasons for them. Someone else gives a rebuttal, and hopefully their reasons for that rebuttal. If I say "this is that and that is this", I'm not going to be upset when someone else says "no, this is this and that is that". (But it does appear that many here do take offence to anyone disagreeing with them). If they give no reason then I will ask why they think that. If they give a reason I disagree with I will say why I disagree with it. Nothing personal, a fact sadly missed by a number of posters here. I couldn't really care less what someone who doesn't know me thinks and writes about me on a public forum, but I am interested in the thinking behind what they write (the non personal attack part).

Excellent points made (as opposed to scored) and well put.

ping-pong, ping-pong, ping-pong hehe

[Steve2UK]

I see no correlation between where members live and their views for/against/indifferent to any of the issues raised on TVF

I have.

As have I.

It's a known fact that there happens to be more red support amongst Thai people in certain areas (ie Isaan and Chiang Mai) for whatever reason, so not sure why Steve you seem so adamant that the same sort of pattern does not exist amongst foreigners living in those areas and posting here on TVF.

I'm far from "adamant" about that - I'm just waiting to see someone make the case. As rationale for what's claimed, at least Samuian mentions (if I understand him correctly) something akin to what I mentioned - "domestic peace and understanding" being a reference to potential pressures/influences from a Thai partner/family/friends? With more of them "pro red" in areas that are known for voting TRT/PPP/PT? I can see some scope for that happening - but nothing beyond subjective comment to show that it actually does, let alone to what extent. Against this, I also see references to (I paraphrase) "my wife/partner her/his family disagree but........" which indicates to me that either can be the case.

So, it appears to come down to individuals' opinions about the relative numbers - which looks to me like a cue for one of Jingthing's more interesting polls to gauge how many TVF members think they are/aren't influenced by their home location and situation in forming their views (or are willing to admit that they are?). What do you say, Jingthing?

[Steve2UK]

I've been on the receiving end of accusations of "Thaksin is your guy", "False-Flag Friend syndrome" and other such froth from a pair of the more loquacious posters here (thus far with zero evidence to back up any of it) and have also seen them and others slinging the accusation around

A fanciful few on TVF lately seem intent on painting CM as some kind of red "fortress Chiang Mai"

"froth from a pair of the more loquacious posters here " ???

" fanciful few on TVF " ???

In light of the derision you recently showed towards my unwillingness to name names, why are you yourself dancing around and avoiding stating exactly who this dastardly "pair" / "fanciful few" are? Spit it out man.

For brevity and clarity, I grouped together what, respectively, two and four members actually wrote; what was said is the issue - not who said it. In contrast to your claim of a "large/significant" number, I made it clear that I was referring to the words of just a "pair" and a "few" (the "fanciful" part is plainly my opinion). Different situations and there is no "dancing around"; if anyone actually needs to know who said what and what the context was, they're welcome to PM me and I'll supply the links.

I fully expect we won't see eye to eye on this, but my view is that if you want to claim a "large/significant" number, you should expect to be called on it to provide substantiation. If (for clearly laudable reasons of wanting to avoid triggering a flaming bickerfest) you're not going to be able to substantiate the statement, the course is obvious - don't make the statement other than in purely subjective terms of "IMO".

[rixalex]

I fully expect we won't see eye to eye on this, but my view is that if you want to claim a "large/significant" number, you should expect to be called on it to provide substantiation. If (for clearly laudable reasons of wanting to avoid triggering a flaming bickerfest) you're not going to be able to substantiate the statement, the course is obvious - don't make the statement other than in purely subjective terms of "IMO".

Point one, i thought it was obvious that it was a subjective comment. No? If i omitted an "IMO" to make that clear i apologise.

Point two, substantiation was never going to be possible - naming names wasn't going to change that - unless of course those who i named stepped forward and readily confessed to taking a "pro-red stance". I don't believe they would have done. Rather, a long argument would have ensued, taking us nowhere.

[jdinasia]

Refreshing that someone read my posts so carefully and took the time to cut 'n' paste them again - nice to know that you care... *sigh* you are funny... and so simple minded - it's almost endearing - you must be an American Rebublican right? - I'm right aren't I? a George Bush supporter? go on admit it...

Yes, I do care. And once again you dodge the questions and resort to personal attacks. Why not try giving us some reasons for your views for once, rather than spewing out the same old stuff? Myself and a number of others have asked you to tell us how elections should be arranged and what you hope they'd ultimately achieve. We're still waiting your response. And, why not try and learn the difference between disagreeing with a post, and giving reasons for it, and attacking the poster? Try to be a little less thin skinned. You'll enjoy it here a whole lot more if you do.

Firstly... (and my comments were 'tongue in cheek' I can take banter and hope you can too) you selectively culled my posts when I have actually said two times that I like Abhsit. My point, made several times, is that it is not for you not I too ''decide' what is right or wrong but for the 'people' and sorry.... that means elections. You may not agree or disagree with the outcomes - but there you have it it's democracy - the problem with democracy is that sometimes the 'wrong' guys get in - a nuisance I know.

The point is, I pointed out, that many Thai's believe that the government is not 'elected' - noe before you start to shout about 'legitimacý' it may be legal but it's not moral - and as for insults I have been called many things on this yellow thread just because I stand up for democracy and elections - I am not a Thaksin supporter (particularly) but I am probably more red than yellow and hate the concept of yellow fellows hijacking the 'high ground' in the debate by abusing all other views as 'Thaksin stooges'. You do not highlight all the canary posts on this thread who abuse some of us who may - Heaven Forbid! disagree... and, for the record, I do NOT support violence, by any colour Red, Yellow, Blue nor Purple...

Huh? I am confused! I thought we had elections and that the "red's" were pleased with the outcome. They got Samak .. and then Thaksin's bro-in-law and now they are upset because those same elections that made them happy have in turn placed a Democrat in power for however a brief time period that may be?

If you stand for elections like you say you do, and you understand parliamentary democracy then you just don't have a leg to stand on in this discusson. The legal AND the moral high ground rests with the current government.

We could go back and rehash how TRT etc have proven themselves not to be democratic in nature but why bother? Stick with the most recent elections and what we have is .... what we have

[rixalex]

For brevity and clarity, I grouped together what, respectively, two and four members actually wrote; what was said is the issue - not who said it. In contrast to your claim of a "large/significant" number, I made it clear that I was referring to the words of just a "pair" and a "few" (the "fanciful" part is plainly my opinion). Different situations and there is no "dancing around"; if anyone actually needs to know who said what and what the context was, they're welcome to PM me and I'll supply the links.

None of all that tells me why you'd rather not mention these people.