The Hiv Scam

[chiangmaikelly]

I posted this here instead of in the health forum because it gets wider readership and because it was a scam as in Farang paying for a service he did not receive.

I dated a nurse in Pattaya for a while. She was the head nurse at two large local clinics. They did a big volume in both Thai and Farang customers and spoke enough English to get by with most things. The doctors spoke decent English the nurses less.

I used to pick the lady up after work most nights for a late dinner and then well you know what then.

I was waiting in the reception area one night when a Dutchman came in. He spoke almost no English. He was an old guy, real old. He had a bar girl in tow. They both got HIV tests. The one minute ones. The Dutch guy was paying the bill. They called the lady back to the test area for another test. Waited another couple of minutes and then called her back again. Then she came out to the reception area where the nurse wanted to talk to both people. It was obvious the Dutch guy did not understand her English or Thai and the Thai lady was pleading with the nurse not to tell the guy that she was HIV positive. It struck me that this was not news to her because she seemed rather calm and only concerned about the Dutch guy finding out. I ask the Dutch guy if he wanted my help to translate and the girl shot me a dagger look and grabbed the old guy and off they went. Him being none the wiser for his attempted precaution.

There is a moral to the story. Getting tested is a good idea. But go to the hospital. Pattaya Memorial does the tests quickly and painlessly. They even use tiny little swabs to do a smear from a guy. You need tests for more than just HIV. Blood work for VD and Hepatitis in addition to HIV. You need a swab done for any infections of the urethra and the lady a smear. Of course this isn't foolproof because of the incubation periods of the diseases but it sure beats doing nothing and only costs a few thousand baht. Maybe the best money you ever spend. Condoms break. Herpes? I don't know. I think you might as well figure getting herpes. Everyone in Pattaya has it anyway. It's not going to kill you.

When you get the tests back at the hospital you will get an easy to read form. If you can't read it ask the doctor. The whole process is quick and should be a must do for anyone staying in Thailand.

[basjke]

So I guess the moral of the story is...................learn english before you take an hiv test.

[JimmyTheMook]

So I guess the moral of the story is...................learn english before you take an hiv test.

I thought it was everyone in Pattaya has herpes ?

[krading]

One day they will have STD testing machines in the toilet along side the condom vending machine and the breath-a-lizer.

[Bagwan]

The moral of the story should be do not use any clinics other than the few operated by farangs. Most are not really safe and it used to be the case that many were manned by unqualified quacks. I have not heard of any recent prosecutions though.

Soon after meeting my wife I told her that I was concerned about her persistent cough. She agreed to go to a local clinic and came back with some iron pills. I took her to BPH the following morning and TB (and a few other things) were found to be the problem. I doubt that any clinics in Pattaya retain the services of an on site pathologist.

I can recommend the services of an excellent path lab situated on Naklua Road which is used by many independent doctors. After the tests are carried out the results can be e-mailed to you or your doctor or sent by SMS. The charges are reasonable and do not run into thousands. HPVs can be easily detected but I am not sure if the lab has the equipment to carry out the DNA testing to identify the dangerous ones (e.g. types 16,18,31,45).

[DegenFarang]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000. That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

And yes, I put my money where my mouth is, I've used condoms only rarely for the last several years (either at the insistence of the woman or with old and particularly sketchy BG's/working girls) and all that has happened is that I've gotten Chlamydia and Gonorrhea twice each - both cured with a thirty minute trip to Bumrungrad.

Flame away.

Edited January 7, 2010 by DegenFarang

[Tokay]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000.

Go on... I'm listening.

That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

Whew. I've got 538 more years of bare back shagging to go!

[basjke]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000. That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

And yes, I put my money where my mouth is, I've used condoms only rarely for the last several years (either at the insistence of the woman or with old and particularly sketchy BG's/working girls) and all that has happened is that I've gotten Chlamydia and Gonorrhea twice each - both cured with a thirty minute trip to Bumrungrad.

Flame away.

I don't know of anyone yet who had sex every night for an extended 548 years so the odds are that hiv doesn't exist isn't it?

Does Christian missionary's have the same knowledge as doctors these days?

[Dakhar]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000. That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

And yes, I put my money where my mouth is, I've used condoms only rarely for the last several years (either at the insistence of the woman or with old and particularly sketchy BG's/working girls) and all that has happened is that I've gotten Chlamydia and Gonorrhea twice each - both cured with a thirty minute trip to Bumrungrad.

Flame away.

Outstanding..... Did u eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?

[Tokay]

I don't know of anyone yet who had sex every night for an extended 548 years so...

I'm going give it a shot, or die trying.

[geriatrickid]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000. That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

And yes, I put my money where my mouth is, I've used condoms only rarely for the last several years (either at the insistence of the woman or with old and particularly sketchy BG's/working girls) and all that has happened is that I've gotten Chlamydia and Gonorrhea twice each - both cured with a thirty minute trip to Bumrungrad.

Flame away.

Every so often someone comes along to twist the numbers and extrapolate data to provide self reassurance. If you are prepared to accept the risks, good for you, but don't preach such absolute crap to people that have been around to see the face of HIV in this region. The numbers have been picked apart in the forums in multiple posts so I am not going to rehash them. However, the WHO values which are very conservative provide a different indication.

Let's deal with your assumptions. You have cited an indication of 1% of the entire population. How about you pull out the groups that are not likely to have HIV: The elderly - because survival rates are poor once the typical Thai is diagnosed and one isn't going to live to a ripe old age unless wealthy, the under 15s because they are not as sexually active as older adolescents and a <deleted> large chunk of the populaion that uses common sense. You know what that leaves? A very high infection rate in those most at risk to contract HIV: sex trade workers and those that use them. I don't think you will be seeing a 1% rate but maybe well in excess of 10% and if you look at some of the recent trade grabs, you will see some values reported in at 35%. And guess what? In Thailand, HIV is a hetero disease, not a gay disease so you have a good chance of picking it up from a hooker.

I have two suggestions for you,: One - Take a remedial math class and Two - Consider Talking over your many issues with someone trained to provide counseling. You're the guy that one week posted of his desire to convert to Judaism so you could emigrate to Israel, but then decided that going to University to avoid the visa rules was a better option, right?. Every week you have some vision or notion that's completely illogical and at the very least indicative of someone that needs some quiet time.

The health forum is a place for people to ask questions and get some feedback and suggestions. It's not a soapbox for personal biased views that cannot be substantiated. Have some respect for these people. Thank you.

[Latindancer]

I second that entire post......and get an HIV test. Hookers in Thailand have a high rate of it. Where do you think they get it from ?

Edited January 8, 2010 by Latindancer

[purplehaze]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000. That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

And yes, I put my money where my mouth is, I've used condoms only rarely for the last several years (either at the insistence of the woman or with old and particularly sketchy BG's/working girls) and all that has happened is that I've gotten Chlamydia and Gonorrhea twice each - both cured with a thirty minute trip to Bumrungrad.

Flame away.

Aaaah,is this what they call Thai"Russian" roullette.

Fill your boots mate, take the gamble.

[chiangmaikelly]

Hookers in Thailand get HIV from their Thai boyfriends. I hope that is not news to anyone. 99% of hookers in Thailand have Thai boyfriends and I also hope that is not news to anyone.

Few bars test for HIV. A couple do. Some get a doctor to come in monthly and a couple have the girls go to clinics weekly. Monthly they test for HIV and weekly for vaginal problems.

I have seen numerous occasions when the girls had to clear out of the bar because of a positive test. It is sad. Then the ladies go to another bar and get a job that doesn’t require a test.

I know some guys who refuse to wear a condom. I don’t argue with them. They don’t speak Thai. They are like deaf men walking in a disco. They don’t hear the noise.

I have met 10 or so women who are HIV positive. That is enough for me. It brought it home and made it personal.

Most people are too shy or too naïve to really understand what happens.

The hookers sleep with boys who work in gay bars. The guys who work in gay bars will do anything with anyone from anywhere.

When you do a hooker without a condom it is the same as doing the lowest of the low from the lowest of the low countries in the world. It is not just the woman you are sleeping with but her whole sexual family and believe me that is a big family. The rules prohibit me from knocking other countries but you would never consider setting foot there let alone having sex with someone from there.

The HIV capital of Thailand as far as I know is Rayong. There is a home for kids with HIV close to there run by an Italian cleric. If you want to see the real face of HIV or find out about HIV in Thailand visit. He is a nice guy and always needs supplies. The Thais don’t do a good job of taking care of their children who are infected and he tries to help. They take the school kids from the government schools in the area on tours of the place which is a good idea.

[deejah]

i am no expert

my understanding is HIV and AIDS are not the same

and there is no PROVEN link between the two

i cant back any of this up right now

but it is good food for thought

and certainly can ignite much debate

[OriginalPoster]

i am no expert

my understanding is HIV and AIDS are not the same

and there is no PROVEN link between the two

i cant back any of this up right now

but it is good food for thought

and certainly can ignite much debate

The usual backup to claims such as that are links to conspiracy theory websites.

[Tolley]

When I had a HIV test at BPH the lady doctor there told me the odds of catching HIV were something like 1600- 1 so the odds are indeed very low.

However if the women alreadys has aids or other STDs and/or you engage in anal sex then the odds increase dramatically.

Wearing a condom is only commonsense really.

[Belligerent]

I wonder if the quoted statistics or "odds" of catching these diseases come about from your average people in the street or mucky old b4stards in Thailand barebacking bargirls?? Maybe the odss are a little different here.

[PoorSucker]

Maybe time for a poll.

1. Use condom , not have HIV.

2. Use condom, have HIV.

3. Dont' use, not tested myself because I scared.

4. Don't use, have HIV.

5. I'm a monk.

[Tokay]

Hookers in Thailand get HIV from their Thai boyfriends. I hope that is not news to anyone. 99% of hookers in Thailand have Thai boyfriends and I also hope that is not news to anyone.

Few bars test for HIV. A couple do. Some get a doctor to come in monthly and a couple have the girls go to clinics weekly. Monthly they test for HIV and weekly for vaginal problems.

I have seen numerous occasions when the girls had to clear out of the bar because of a positive test. It is sad. Then the ladies go to another bar and get a job that doesn't require a test.

The hookers sleep with boys who work in gay bars. The guys who work in gay bars will do anything with anyone from anywhere.

I was going to say all of this but you beat me to it.

You also leave out, that a large portion of working girls will take their hard earned money and head to the male karaoke bars and pay Thai boys to have sex with them. As you stated, it is no surprise to know these guys also many times service men. Many of the girls have boyfriends who work in these same bars. It's a mess.

[deejah]

Hookers in Thailand get HIV from their Thai boyfriends. I hope that is not news to anyone. 99% of hookers in Thailand have Thai boyfriends and I also hope that is not news to anyone.

Few bars test for HIV. A couple do. Some get a doctor to come in monthly and a couple have the girls go to clinics weekly. Monthly they test for HIV and weekly for vaginal problems.

I have seen numerous occasions when the girls had to clear out of the bar because of a positive test. It is sad. Then the ladies go to another bar and get a job that doesn't require a test.

The hookers sleep with boys who work in gay bars. The guys who work in gay bars will do anything with anyone from anywhere.

I was going to say all of this but you beat me to it.

You also leave out, that a large portion of working girls will take their hard earned money and head to the male karaoke bars and pay Thai boys to have sex with them. As you stated, it is no surprise to know these guys also many times service men. Many of the girls have boyfriends who work in these same bars. It's a mess.

i dont doubt much of this

and these are excellent points

but when i read:

that a large portion of working girls will take their hard earned money and head to the male karaoke bars and pay Thai boys to have sex with them

i am thinking arrii wha??????

jing jing law?????

why would a (thai working) gal pay a (thai) man to have sex?

pardon me for looking for a logical reason

[chiangmaikelly]

I wonder if the quoted statistics or "odds" of catching these diseases come about from your average people in the street or mucky old b4stards in Thailand barebacking bargirls?? Maybe the odss are a little different here.

Aids capital is Rayong which is the average working class town with a lot of sailors from all over the world thrown in. It is a lot of single Thai workng guys and not the mucky old guys. 2nd biggest aids town in Thailand is Chiang Mai with is drug use and again not the mucky old guys. Time to re think your attitude.

[DegenFarang]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000. That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

And yes, I put my money where my mouth is, I've used condoms only rarely for the last several years (either at the insistence of the woman or with old and particularly sketchy BG's/working girls) and all that has happened is that I've gotten Chlamydia and Gonorrhea twice each - both cured with a thirty minute trip to Bumrungrad.

Flame away.

I don't know of anyone yet who had sex every night for an extended 548 years so the odds are that hiv doesn't exist isn't it?

Does Christian missionary's have the same knowledge as doctors these days?

My implication was that the Christian Missionaries were exaggerating or misinterpreting data - but used their bloated number anyway.

My other implication is that there are very, very few men who obtained HIV from unprotected vaginal sex with a woman. Those men that did were simply extremely unlucky and I would be a lot of money that most of them were very well endowed and thus draw blood when having sex more often than men with smaller penis' - thus the reason more African American heterosexual men have AIDS than white or Asian hetoerosexual men.

The vast majority of people infected with Aids are gay men, women, Aids babies, IV drug users and those who got it from a blood transfusion. The least likely group to get it - and the smallest proportion of those with it - are heterosexual males, particularly white and Asian heterosexual males.

[DegenFarang]

The odds of a male contracting HIV from vaginal intercourse with an HIV infected woman is 1/2000. I got some propaganda from a Christian Missionary a few weeks ago that said that 1% of all Thai people have AIDS, so lets go with that number - if you have unprotected vaginal sex with a different Thai woman your odds of getting HIV are (1/2000) X (1/100) = 1/200,000. That means you could have unprotected sex every night for 548 years before the odds caught up with you.

And yes, I put my money where my mouth is, I've used condoms only rarely for the last several years (either at the insistence of the woman or with old and particularly sketchy BG's/working girls) and all that has happened is that I've gotten Chlamydia and Gonorrhea twice each - both cured with a thirty minute trip to Bumrungrad.

Flame away.

Let's deal with your assumptions. You have cited an indication of 1% of the entire population. How about you pull out the groups that are not likely to have HIV: The elderly - because survival rates are poor once the typical Thai is diagnosed and one isn't going to live to a ripe old age unless wealthy, the under 15s because they are not as sexually active as older adolescents and a <deleted> large chunk of the populaion that uses common sense.

When accounting for your variables their literature says 1.4% of adults 15-49 have HIV/AIDS. However it says there are 560,000 adults 15+ have HIV/AIDS and only 220,000 of those are women - leaving 340,000 of them as men. Without doing the actual math I'm going to guess that this makes my numbers still roughly accurate with regard to having unprotected sex with a woman - however lets go with the 1.4% number and see how that changes things:

(1/2000) X (14/1000) = 14/2,000,000 = you can have unprotected sex with a woman every night for 391.4 years before contracting HIV/AIDS.

[DegenFarang]

but maybe well in excess of 10% and if you look at some of the recent trade grabs, you will see some values reported in at 35%. And guess what? In Thailand, HIV is a hetero disease, not a gay disease so you have a good chance of picking it up from a hooker.

This is <deleted>. It's not possibly 10 or 35% - even if it were, you can still use the 1/2000 infection rate as evidence that its extremely unlikely to get AIDS by having unprotected sex with a Thai woman.

If it is a hetero disease then how do you explain that there are nearly 50% more men than women infected among Thai's? It is clearly a gay male disease for the most part - with sex workers obviously being more susceptible than others simply because they are having so much more unprotected sex than anybody else - thus the odds are going to catch up with them quicker.

I have two suggestions for you,: One - Take a remedial math class and Two - Consider Talking over your many issues with someone trained to provide counseling. You're the guy that one week posted of his desire to convert to Judaism so you could emigrate to Israel, but then decided that going to University to avoid the visa rules was a better option, right?. Every week you have some vision or notion that's completely illogical and at the very least indicative of someone that needs some quiet time.

The health forum is a place for people to ask questions and get some feedback and suggestions. It's not a soapbox for personal biased views that cannot be substantiated. Have some respect for these people. Thank you.

My profession dictates that I am extremely skilled in math, probabilities and statistics - and I've taken advanced courses in them all.

I never had a desire to emigrate to Israel, I have a desire to obtain a second passport on top of my US Passport - big difference.

Me applying to and attending University in Thailand is something I will do regardless of whether or not I am able to obtain a second passport and has nothing to do with my visa. If you don't see the value in higher education, I don't know what to tell you.

When I originally posted in this thread it was in the 'General' forum, sorry if my posts violate some etiquette of this forum, I've never posted in it or even opened it before now.

Edited January 8, 2010 by DegenFarang

[Jingthing]

Short version of this post -- USE CONDOMS. Yes, straight guys too!

I hate to see such false information and myths spread about. Its like a disease, such ignorance.

Go to some credible sources. Don't listen to mongers in denial.

http://data.unaids.org/pub/BaseDocument/20...evention_en.pdf

Does HIV only affect men who have sex with men and people who inject drugs?

No. Anyone who has unprotected sex, uses un-sterilized injecting equipment, or has a

transfusion with contaminated blood can become infected with HIV. Infants can be

infected with HIV from their mothers during pregnancy, during labour or after delivery

through breastfeeding. Worldwide, 90% of HIV cases are the result of sexual

transmission, and 60–70% of HIV cases occur among heterosexuals.

BTW, being "cut" does reduce the risk of male transmission.

Does male circumcision prevent HIV transmission?

Recent studies suggest that male circumcision can reduce the risk of acquiring HIV

though sex. However, it is not 100% effective and circumcised men can still become

infected. In addition, HIV-positive men who are circumcised can infect their sexual

partners. Male circumcision should not replace other known methods of prevention, but

be always considered as part of a comprehensive of prevention strategy.

BTW, the question of penis size and risk is interesting. I am not aware of literature about that, but I haven't really looked. In Africa, the mainstream theory is that the massive occurance female to male HIV transmission is due to uncut men having sex with HIV positive prostitutes. They then take the disease back to their girlfriends or wives. I don't see anything wrong with studies about penis size and risk, but I think until you can produce credible scientific studies, I would not assume that having a medium or small willy is really protective.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Jingthing

[DegenFarang]

I second that entire post......and get an HIV test. Hookers in Thailand have a high rate of it. Where do you think they get it from ?

I get tested regularly. They get it from having sex 10 times a day and from it being easier for women to get it than men. Think about it - HIV is transferred via fluid exchange. When you come into a woman you are passing a great amount of fluid into her - however how much is she passing to you? Some gets in through your head but nothing compared to them amount you are giving her.

[Millard]

Getting back to the OP, the nurse didn't do anything wrong by not telling the Dutch guy his bargirl had HIV. Her results are her own personal matter. In the States, it's against the law to reveal private medical information to anyone other than the patient, regardless of who's paying for the test.

why would a (thai working) gal pay a (thai) man to have sex?

pardon me for looking for a logical reason

It's a matter of empowerment. Daily, these bargirls are bought as a commodity. One in a while, they like to feel as if they've regained some control.

Also, Thai women are attracted to Thai men. As much as we'd like to think we're "hansum man", we don't look anything like the Thai ideal of attractive. These women may be getting a lot of sex from falang customers, but it's not the kind of sex they want. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a job.

[Jingthing]

I second that entire post......and get an HIV test. Hookers in Thailand have a high rate of it. Where do you think they get it from ?

I get tested regularly. They get it from having sex 10 times a day and from it being easier for women to get it than men. Think about it - HIV is transferred via fluid exchange. When you come into a woman you are passing a great amount of fluid into her - however how much is she passing to you? Some gets in through your head but nothing compared to them amount you are giving her.

Oy vey. It's not about the volume of fluid, but what is in the fluid; its about the VIRUS coming into contact with a vulnerable area. Anything -- foreskin, microcut existing or from sex abrasion, opening from another penile STD, etc. A virus is TINY, it doesn't need a gallon of fluid. Viruses exist to spread to new hosts. That's their job. They are programmed to survive. They don't care if you do. That's your job.

Consider this --

Overall, there was a 1 in 159 risk of female to male HIV transmission (95% confidence interval: 110, 286) per act of vaginal sex. This risk was 2.49 times greater in uncircumcised men (1 in 196 vs. 1 in 78, p = 0.04). This increased risk was similar when the investigators adjusted the estimated rates of HIV prevalence in the women by up to 10%.

“The foreskin contains high densities of HIV-1 target cells, which suggests that a heightened HIV-1 risk in uncircumcised men is biologically plausible,” explain the authors.

http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/47ae661f-f9...10f81d.asp?hp=1 Edited January 8, 2010 by Jingthing

[DegenFarang]

In honor of this thread I have chosen a TV avatar.

And I'm not going to even bother clicking the link - if the odds were 1/249 me and a bunch of friends would all have AIDS. None of us does. Your source is wrong.