Racism In Thailand

[phetaroi]

There are far more racist countries around here, including Malaysia - which goes a step further by practicing religious discrimination along with racism, and also discriminates between the races of its natural born citizens in such matters as business ownership, voting rights and education

...

Thailand is on the whole pretty average. It does win points on the lack of religious discrimination, and loses them on foreign land ownership, visa restrictions on foreigners married to Thais, and double pricing. Although these are more nationalist, as they distinguish between Thais and non Thais, rather than race against race...

Good post. Although it was a while ago, on a month-long trip to Malaysia I had the opportunity to talk with one family of Indians in Penang, and a family of Chinese in KL. Both were very happy to have a listener while they pointed out the everyday discrimination that was ingrained in the legal system through bumipatra (spelling?).

I think you make an accurate point about nationalistic, rather than racism in Thailand.

[phetaroi]

because british nationals pay what is called"national insurance contributions" through their wages!

Precisely, and the rationale for double pricing in Thailand is that Thai's pay taxes which are used for the upkeep of national parks, historical sites etc. Granted, this doesn't apply to private businesses using double pricing, but as someone mentioned, if you prove you are a resident you usually get charged the Thai price. If not, then no body's forcing you to enter thr place.

Not only that, but tourists getting VAT refunds is not exactly anti-foreigner.

[bonobo]

There are far more racist countries around here, including Malaysia - which goes a step further by practicing religious discrimination along with racism, and also discriminates between the races of its natural born citizens in such matters as business ownership, voting rights and education

...

Thailand is on the whole pretty average. It does win points on the lack of religious discrimination, and loses them on foreign land ownership, visa restrictions on foreigners married to Thais, and double pricing. Although these are more nationalist, as they distinguish between Thais and non Thais, rather than race against race...

Good post. Although it was a while ago, on a month-long trip to Malaysia I had the opportunity to talk with one family of Indians in Penang, and a family of Chinese in KL. Both were very happy to have a listener while they pointed out the everyday discrimination that was ingrained in the legal system through bumipatra (spelling?).

I think you make an accurate point about nationalistic, rather than racism in Thailand.

I have heard the same thing from other Chinese-Malaysians.  On the other hand, they like it that they are allowed to buy alcohol while their Malay bretheran are not.

[ronswelters2]

From what I've seen the most unjust (and unreasonable) thing is showing obvious public prejudice against and rejection of Thai kids even within the family who are darker skinned than their sibs and other locals. Perhaps this is an almost universal thing.

But who knows, do we exaggerate the effects of these prejudices in the west? Maybe it toughens them up and makes them try harder. Most dark Thais are happy to joke about it, which says something.

[Portlandstone]

Admittedly I haven't read through much of this thread but saw only the first few posts, but I can't help but wonder why the first post only mentions 'racism against black people'. I wonder if the poster got his education in the USA, a place which preaches that racism can only happen to black people?

[apetley]

1. Who says your not wanted?

2. What about all the farang married to ethnic Thais?

3. Who is to say that they are not wanted?

4. Are their Thai wifes guilty of not preserving traditional culture by marrying a farang?

1. Three years ago, it used to be something I sensed in Nonthaburi and Bangkok, but still felt welcome back in the rural places like Nikhom Pattana. Now that sign has spread to the villages, although there are complex reasons for it.

2. I'm not going to marry someone who loves my money more than me. I believe that it takes at least twelve months for a proper courtship ritual to take place in Thai society, and the most they'll give me here is six. Forget it.

3. I hear that a common occupation amongst young blokes in Issan over the past decade or so is to sit around all afternoon drinking M150 or enjoying the yaba or whatever they can to try to forget about the girls they fell in love with in high-school who took off to Pattaya or Cowboy or Nana to get rich on the back of some tourist, but this is just a rumour that is oft mentioned on Internet forums. Remember that one man's gain is another man's loss.

4. I cannot answer that question.

To get back ontopic, it's not explicitly racism so much as that same patriotism I used to feel about Australia before it all went to buggery, and these hard times that seem to be inviting me to leave Thailand are based around the need to preserve the culture and society that has been gradually torn down piece by piece over the last 30 or 40 years. I got here too late. Let's hope Myanmar and Bangladesh don't have to survive the influx of foreign culture that Thailand has had to find a way to overcome, and that Thailand never ends up the multicultural wasteland that Australia has turned into.

That's why I came back here, so that's why soon I'll have to go.

In nearly 9 years of visiting and then living in Thailand I can only say that I have sensed being unwelcome from 2 individuals. Maybe I am lucky, maybe your unlucky in your experience.

Marrying people for their money? That's a pretty sweeping statement and if your being rushed into marriage by a Thai girl your hanging out with the wrong sort.

As for Thai males hanging around drinking whiskey that's an age old phenomena, not something that has happened since the age of tourism. It's a cultural thing, one of those you want to preserve?

If you think you are going to find an idyll in Burma then I think you are mistaken. The Military have screwed the country more than any foreign influence could, you will find it next to impossible to travel overland and should you ever find the love of your life there she will have to leave the country to get married as marriage to foreigners is forbidden.

Multiculturalism is not a recent thing. It's as old as history. Since the first hominoid strolled out of East Africa, since poor old Neanderthal Man got displaced, since the Asians crossed the Bering Sea and spread down into the Americas, the Romans conquered Europe etc etc.

It's not multiculturalism that buggers a country, it's only ignorant xenophobia of something that's different.

[WhingeingMoaners]

To accuse other people of being racist, the person who says that is also a racial hater. Take a look on this forum at the number of threads where foreigners have made derogatory comments about the locals. Don't you think Thai people are able to read English then? It is unsurprising that some natives do not want to associate themselves with you people and try to keep their distance from those who slag them off on a regular basis. Have you ever thought that from time to time you people are the source of problems, such as by being totally inconsiderate, obnoxious, arrogant, pompous and egotistical? Why do you think that the locals should comply with your way of thinking in spite of the fact they are not interested in what you say? I have never seen Thai people going round telling other nations how to live their lives. Apparently, a lot of foreigners think that they have the exclusive right to dictate to the locals on how things should be done in the LOS. Try to put yourselves in ther shoes ok? Maybe it would be better for the locals to start speaking their minds about their dislike of the behaviour of some foreigners in Thailand, instead of being tolerant.

[Jingthing]

In nearly 9 years of visiting and then living in Thailand I can only say that I have sensed being unwelcome from 2 individuals. Maybe I am lucky, maybe your unlucky in your experience.

I find that astounding. Edited January 19, 2010 by Jingthing

[kikoman]

It's not racism here. Even if you thought it was.

no your right its not racism.... its ignorance!

I remember a few years back an underwear company in UK produced bras and knickers with a buddha logo, the outpouring of disgust from the Thais was amazing. But at the same time you could go to any market and buy a swastika tshirt or a f@@k bush tshirt. when 7/11 happened jj market did a roaring trade in tshirts depicting bush/bin laden.

So chill out and dont worry about it. its not their fault their ignorant.

I would question who was ignorant on the point in your post that Thai youth purchase Swastika shirt, the historical use of the Sawatika, was not born in Europe in the World War II years,

Google the meaning of the ancient use of that Symbol and its relevents to Asia ,as well to the Native Americans in the US.

THE_ANCIENT_SWASTIKA_SYMBOL.doc

See what its meaning is in Thailand, vs its use in Europe and the US, by Neo Nazi groups To day!

Cheers:

Edited January 19, 2010 by kikoman

[SeanMoran]

It's not multiculturalism that buggers a country, it's only ignorant xenophobia of something that's different.

Thank you for the whole post above, Apetley, and all I can say is that Bangladesh looks like a civilised option, if not Sri Lanka. Xenophobia is what saves a nation from multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism displaces the historical past of a nation, and without history, they will repeat the same mistakes repeatedly repeating the repeat of those mistakes historically made so mistakenly by repetition of those mistakes that history was not remembered and so repeated by the multicultural who repeated the history that they weren't there to remember the first time. Can you see by that sentence what I mean?

It's fair enough that Thailand is special enough to want to find some way of avoiding the onslaught of McThailand Inc. and that is why a natural xenophobia might currently get in the way of the normal hospitable nature of Thai people, who aren't IMHO easily upset by anything much. Still, for every action, there is a reaction. Thailand reacts to the influx of foreign culture and takes the good discarding the bad and the leftovers. I'm one of the leftovers, so it looks like Bangladesh now.

[StreetCowboy]

To accuse other people of being racist, the person who says that is also a racial hater. Take a look on this forum at the number of threads where foreigners have made derogatory comments about the locals. Don't you think Thai people are able to read English then? It is unsurprising that some natives do not want to associate themselves with you people and try to keep their distance from those who slag them off on a regular basis. Have you ever thought that from time to time you people are the source of problems, such as by being totally inconsiderate, obnoxious, arrogant, pompous and egotistical? Why do you think that the locals should comply with your way of thinking in spite of the fact they are not interested in what you say? I have never seen Thai people going round telling other nations how to live their lives. Apparently, a lot of foreigners think that they have the exclusive right to dictate to the locals on how things should be done in the LOS. Try to put yourselves in ther shoes ok? Maybe it would be better for the locals to start speaking their minds about their dislike of the behaviour of some foreigners in Thailand, instead of being tolerant.

TOP RANT!

[Loz]

But if you ask THais (which I have) they revered the swasika because of hitler. Why? Because he was a powerful leader.

I've just returned from Au manao Wing 5 base where we took some kids to the museum which explained in part WW2 and who was against who. later the same day a teenager when asked to make a presentation about what they had learned, opened his address with a Nazi Salute. He thought this was "cool". Another teacher explained privately why it wasn't and he was close to tears when he realised the implications. The other teacher was very gentle in her explanation but the reality sank in and this kid finally had a small understanding of the war and its implications for Thais.

Why did the teachers explain to the boy in private? Why was the class prevented from learning more about the history?

2 reasons.

public humiliation would not have helped him learn the valuable lesson.

The reaction of other kids and staff suggested that he might have been alone in not learning the salient points of the visit.

His a nice kid who didn't need demonising. Nobody thought he did it with malice a forethought. His reaction backed up that hunch.

[apetley]

It's not multiculturalism that buggers a country, it's only ignorant xenophobia of something that's different.

Thank you for the whole post above, Apetley, and all I can say is that Bangladesh looks like a civilised option, if not Sri Lanka. Xenophobia is what saves a nation from multiculturalism.

I'm one of the leftovers, so it looks like Bangladesh now.

Do a little research and you will find Bangladesh one of more racist and corrupt countries.

If you have some money it will go along way, if your poor like 99% of the oppressed population you'll live in degradation.

[jontom]

In Thailand you are in a different culture where people view anything away from the norm as something of interest. In Thai there are many nouns that when used are the literal translation of what is being said that is why they will sometimes call a black person as dam- because dam means black. I have a black dog at home and he is referred by all the Thai as Maa- dam. A dog which is black. I also have an albino cat at home and she is referred to as meow khoa or farang meow. There is no offence meant it is just an easy way to describe what they see

Racism comes out of ignorance. In third world Thailand there are a lot of ignorant people hence racism.

[Loz]

That blackboard thing sounds completely idiotic to me.

I wonder what PC name we must use for whiteboards now? We can't exactly call them 'whiteboard-marking-pen boards' without being just as racist as if we did say 'whiteboard' so what adjective is allowable? Texta-boards?

They must now be called wipe boards, insane but true.

Ugh. Things like this irritate me. Who actually looks back on changes like these and thinks 'I'm really glad they did that'?

Anyway, I would say that Thailand is probably one of the more racist nations I've been to. It is very deeply ingrained in their culture and there are no government programs I know of to curb any form of discrimination, so it looks like it's here to stay. It's pretty hilarious how most tourists don't notice it, because most of the time they are treated like mini-gods upon arrival and are immediately aware that having fair skin is a positive thing here, which carries heavy social implications.

The story Bonobo told earlier was great and just goes to show that we think all is well if nothing affects us. Thailand has real problems in regards to racism.

I'm so glad this was posted.

DTTK, thanks! I can stop biting my tongue now.

in answer to someones question about me being USA educated. No, British.

[SeanMoran]

It's not multiculturalism that buggers a country, it's only ignorant xenophobia of something that's different.

Thank you for the whole post above, Apetley, and all I can say is that Bangladesh looks like a civilised option, if not Sri Lanka. Xenophobia is what saves a nation from multiculturalism.

I'm one of the leftovers, so it looks like Bangladesh now.

Do a little research and you will find Bangladesh one of more racist and corrupt countries.

If you have some money it will go along way, if your poor like 99% of the oppressed population you'll live in degradation.

If all the research I've done on Thailand is any indicator, then why not give Bangladesh a go? It's a shorter flight than Harare.

[apetley]

It's not multiculturalism that buggers a country, it's only ignorant xenophobia of something that's different.

Thank you for the whole post above, Apetley, and all I can say is that Bangladesh looks like a civilised option, if not Sri Lanka. Xenophobia is what saves a nation from multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism displaces the historical past of a nation, and without history, they will repeat the same mistakes repeatedly repeating the repeat of those mistakes historically made so mistakenly by repetition of those mistakes that history was not remembered and so repeated by the multicultural who repeated the history that they weren't there to remember the first time. Can you see by that sentence what I mean?

It's fair enough that Thailand is special enough to want to find some way of avoiding the onslaught of McThailand Inc. and that is why a natural xenophobia might currently get in the way of the normal hospitable nature of Thai people, who aren't IMHO easily upset by anything much. Still, for every action, there is a reaction. Thailand reacts to the influx of foreign culture and takes the good discarding the bad and the leftovers. I'm one of the leftovers, so it looks like Bangladesh now.

Multiculturalism does not displace history, it changes the present. I do not have a problem with that, it prevents stagnation.

You only repeat the mistakes of history if you are ignorant of history. Simple as that.

[apetley]

In nearly 9 years of visiting and then living in Thailand I can only say that I have sensed being unwelcome from 2 individuals. Maybe I am lucky, maybe your unlucky in your experience.

I find that astounding.

As I say, maybe I'm lucky. I lead a quiet life and enjoy it more than ever that way.

[apetley]

It's not multiculturalism that buggers a country, it's only ignorant xenophobia of something that's different.

Thank you for the whole post above, Apetley, and all I can say is that Bangladesh looks like a civilised option, if not Sri Lanka. Xenophobia is what saves a nation from multiculturalism.

I'm one of the leftovers, so it looks like Bangladesh now.

Do a little research and you will find Bangladesh one of more racist and corrupt countries.

If you have some money it will go along way, if your poor like 99% of the oppressed population you'll live in degradation.

If all the research I've done on Thailand is any indicator, then why not give Bangladesh a go? It's a shorter flight than Harare.

If your planning living in Bangladesh based on research on Thailand your in for a shock. Please let us know your experiences.

[SeanMoran]

Multiculturalism does not displace history, it changes the present. I do not have a problem with that, it prevents stagnation.

You only repeat the mistakes of history if you are ignorant of history. Simple as that.

After the mysterious disappearance of Australian PM Harold Holt, and before Gough Whitlam became PM, who was the Australian Prime Minster between 1968 and 1972?

You can look it up in wiki to find the answer to any question asked, but if your ancestors were not part of the history of the country you're voting in, then you're not really qualified to cast a vote. That is why I like it here in Thailand, because I CAN'T vote in elections. I'm farang! I don't understand the history of this place because my mama and papa are not Thai! They're Australian like me, where everyone who gets off a boat can vote.

A: Billy Sneddon.

Edited January 19, 2010 by SeanMoran

[jdinasia]

Hmmm

nah, this one would just be too easy.

So, Is there racism in Thailand? Yes

Is is directed at farang? IMHO based on experience and speaking and reading the language. A qualified "no" -- as soon as you move away from the tourist areas it is an unqualified No. (I have some opinions on why there are levels of aggression etc in particular tourist areas but that would be for a different thread)

Is it quite often directed at people of S. Asian descent? yes

Is it often directed at people of African descent? Yes (but I have to qualify that by saying my black American friends here seem to love it here)

Is it racism when it is a thing with the National park admission prices etc? No

Does any of it really bother me? Do I lose any sleep over it? Do I feel threatened or diminished? No, No, No, No

[apetley]

Multiculturalism does not displace history, it changes the present. I do not have a problem with that, it prevents stagnation.

You only repeat the mistakes of history if you are ignorant of history. Simple as that.

After the mysterious disappearance of Australian PM Harold Holt, and before Gough Whitlam became PM, who was the Australian Prime Minster between 1968 and 1972?

You can look it up in wiki to find the answer to any question asked, but if your ancestors were not part of the history of the country you're voting in, then you're not really qualified to cast a vote. That is why I like it here in Thailand, because I CAN'T vote in elections. I'm farang! I don't understand the history of this place because my mama and papa are not Thai! They're Australian like me, where everyone who gets off a boat can vote.

A: Billy Sneddon.

Judging by alot of my Thai friends ignorance of their own countries history then are they disqualified from voting?

Most of them are fed the Naresuan story of kicking out the Burmese and are really surprised to learn it didn't finally happen for another 200 years.

My Thai wifes grandparents were Chinese. Does that disqulify her from voting, being Thai?

If you personally don't know the history of a country, pick up a book and learn.

It will help you understand the place you choose to live in even better.

The right to vote should be based on living in and contributing to a society. Ethnicity has no bearing on the contribution a person can make.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm sorry to have to remove SeanMoran's love-in and a well-deserved logical retort by Jdinasia to a racist comment, but they won't make sense without the racist comment and I have to get rid of that. I'd like to remind our members that bashing minorities is not allowed anywhere on Thaivisa.

The deleted tangent is finished, in case I wasn't clear. Please return to the regularly scheduled thread.

Final warning: the next post rehashing the deleted tangent will result in the closure of this thread.

[StreetCowboy]

We (ex-pats) are more lucky than the Thais, insofar as we get to vote with our feet.

For the nationals of a country, generally it is more difficult for them to leave and settle elsewhere.

FOr that reason, it seems fair enough that we don't get to contribute to the decision of which government to put in office; since we don't need to live with the consequences of that decision; we can always second-guess and go and live under a government elsewhere that we prefer...

SC

[SeanMoran]

We (ex-pats) are more lucky than the Thais, insofar as we get to vote with our feet.

For the nationals of a country, generally it is more difficult for them to leave and settle elsewhere.

FOr that reason, it seems fair enough that we don't get to contribute to the decision of which government to put in office; since we don't need to live with the consequences of that decision; we can always second-guess and go and live under a government elsewhere that we prefer...

SC

Same goes at the 711 store. I bring my grocery basket and wait politely in line, and watch what's happening, and every now and then some rapscallion will push in front of me because they see I am farang, and if the checkout girl doesn't see it and get to me before the butterinnerer, then I just change shops after that. I am not an animal.

[StreetCowboy]

We (ex-pats) are more lucky than the Thais, insofar as we get to vote with our feet.

8>< SNIP ><8

SC

Same goes at the 711 store. I bring my grocery basket and wait politely in line, and watch what's happening, and every now and then some rapscallion will push in front of me because they see I am farang, and if the checkout girl doesn't see it and get to me before the butterinnerer, then I just change shops after that. I am not an animal.

Its a little bit more difficult at Seven Eleven, as there is only one corner store on my corner...so I can't go elsewhere.

But Butter Inners don't upset me so much anyway...what you should do is give the Butter a Cantonese Dodge.

SC

SC

[wolf5370]

To accuse other people of being racist, the person who says that is also a racial hater. Take a look on this forum at the number of threads where foreigners have made derogatory comments about the locals. Don't you think Thai people are able to read English then? It is unsurprising that some natives do not want to associate themselves with you people and try to keep their distance from those who slag them off on a regular basis. Have you ever thought that from time to time you people are the source of problems, such as by being totally inconsiderate, obnoxious, arrogant, pompous and egotistical? Why do you think that the locals should comply with your way of thinking in spite of the fact they are not interested in what you say? I have never seen Thai people going round telling other nations how to live their lives. Apparently, a lot of foreigners think that they have the exclusive right to dictate to the locals on how things should be done in the LOS. Try to put yourselves in ther shoes ok? Maybe it would be better for the locals to start speaking their minds about their dislike of the behaviour of some foreigners in Thailand, instead of being tolerant.

TOP RANT!

Rant? I had decided on a completely different four letter word , but for propriety sake I'll substitute "irrelevant drivel" instead.

The first sentence made no sense whatsoever, which I guess was why it was left unqualified.

Racism is absolutely nothing to do with "going round telling other nations how to live their lives", neither is it fair to accuse some one of being a racist (in either direction) because of derogatory comments made - unless you know that the reason for the derogatory comments is racism (its not a two way street).

I could further breakdown the drivel, but as its all same-same and irrelevant, I will not.

[phetaroi]

I have heard the same thing from other Chinese-Malaysians. On the other hand, they like it that they are allowed to buy alcohol while their Malay bretheran are not.

A puzzling post.

[phetaroi]

In nearly 9 years of visiting and then living in Thailand I can only say that I have sensed being unwelcome from 2 individuals. Maybe I am lucky, maybe your unlucky in your experience.

I find that astounding.

Actually, very similar for me. More than 9 visits, but only two interactions that I considered to be unpleasant, and neither of the situations were what I saw as racially based, but rather "rudeness based". What may be said behind my back I have no way of knowing. But I have not experienced the "you're not welcome here" attitude.

[phetaroi]

I would question who was ignorant on the point in your post that Thai youth purchase Swastika shirt, the historical use of the Sawatika, was not born in Europe in the World War II years,

Google the meaning of the ancient use of that Symbol and its relevents to Asia ,as well to the Native Americans in the US.

THE_ANCIENT_SWASTIKA_SYMBOL.doc

See what its meaning is in Thailand, vs its use in Europe and the US, by Neo Nazi groups To day!

I thought the Swastika was the reverse of the ancient Buddhist symbol.