French Man Arrested For Allegedly Offering Underage Sex Service In Pattaya

[Jingthing]

The lynch mob seems to happily adopt the age 18 as a cut off point of childhood.

I would agree. The lynch mob types seem to be just as enthusiastic to prepare the noose against a man who slept with a 17 year old teen (even when the teen lies about age) as one who abused a 10 year old. In some countries, under the law, they are the same crime. In others, they are not. The former is NOT pedophilia, the latter is. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't completely respect and obey the law, here or anywhere, and if not, expect to suffer the consequences. These cutoff ages vary between countries. 18 is on the high end internationally, but it is still my understanding that 18 is indeed the age of consent for paid sex in Thailand.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[sunray69]

Come on guys... Sickness is sickness... i am gay 40 year old and about to marry a 35 years old thai. Now if some of my people come in this country to abuse children, they MUST be prosecuted ! Thanks to Thailand for that, they do their job.

[Jingthing]

Come on guys... Sickness is sickness... i am gay 40 year old and about to marry a 35 years old thai. Now if some of my people come in this country to abuse children, they MUST be prosecuted ! Thanks to Thailand for that, they do their job.

Are you suggesting you are morally superior to a man your age, gay or straight, who couples with a 20 year old Thai? Maybe you are (I can't really say as I am not a rabbi), but under the law, you are the same. Is it your role to morally judge such people, those who have legal cross generational sex or relationships? I find that odd coming from gay men, in a class of people who should know better than to go there.

In my view, if both people are of legal age, it is really nobody's business but the adults involved. Apparently it makes some people "sick" to view such legal aged intergenerational couples. Again, so what? Who cares? It is none of your business and if it makes you sick, why not look away? I tend to walk away from smelly things, not rub my nose in it, same concept. Again as a gay man, your thing with your mature Thai man makes a lot of people very sick. Should you stop it then? Of course not.

BTW, has anyone on this thread come out against prosecuting people who break the underage prostitution laws here in Thailand? If so, I hadn't noticed. There is probably nothing to debate here on that aspect of it. The law is the law, if you break a law in Thailand of the class of laws that are prosecuted, you need to expect prosecution. I make that qualification because as we all know at least up till now, legal age prostitution is not prosecuted in Thailand. That could change though.

BTW, as far as cracking down on underage prostitution in Thailand, so far, the police have NOT been doing their job very effectively. As I have said before, I would love to see that part of the flesh trade completely wiped out.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[manarak]

ok guys, I've been doing a lot of research on this "legal age" matter, and here is what I came up with:

The Law knows different legal ages for doing different things.

Thai Law is based on the french napoleonian "Code Civil" in which many of the same concepts are found, like usufruct for example.

Age of Majority: is the age at which a person gains full legal rights under Thai Law, i.e. can do anything adults can do. This means the person can sign legal contracts (meaning contracts made under the age of 20 are void, so I suppose that is why the girls under 20 are running when the cops come in - most of them don't ask their parents to countersign their employement contracts in a bar).

People under 20 need parental consent to sign contracts.

Age of Majority usually also means that people can drink, do silly things, etc. In some countries the legal voting age is even higher than the age of majority and the age for running in an election even more.

To make things even more simple, I should add that Thai Law also knows an age of "simple majority", which is almost Majority, but not quite. :-)

Then there are different other ages:

Legal age in Thailand: 20

Legal age for marriage: 20, 17 with parental consent, 15 in special circumstances with court approval

Legal age for working: 15 (under special provisions & parental consent), 18 (no restrictions on the nature of work, but parental consent required), or 20 (no restrictions at all)

Legal age for consensual sex: 15 (but risky, see below), 18 (no risk)

Legal age for working as a bar girl/prostitute: 18 (this supposes a valid employment contract which requires parental consent - otherwise 20)

Legal age for drinking was 18, and has been raised to 20 in 2006.

Then I would suppose there is a legal age to drive a scooter/bike, maybe a legal age for smoking, etc.

As an example, Switzerland has also a law that is based on Napoleon's Code Civil, and knows exactly the same concepts. A Swiss citizen reaches the age of majority at 18, but is allowed - without parental consent - to consume porn, to have sex and to work as a prostitute with 16. It is the law as it is written.

Regarding Thailand, you may be interested in reading the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand, Book1, Title2, Chapter1, Part2:

http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaici...e%20persons.pdf

The same document confirms that an employment contract is a jurisdic act that cannot be done by people under 20 years of age without parental consent.

(BTW, the site http://www.thailawonline.com is excellent, it has a great collection of translations of Thai Law. I just discovered it today when researching this subject.)

There is another good site with translated laws: http://thailaws.com/body_english_acts.htm

The legal age for sex (which is the main point of interest here, as it seems) is defined by the Penal Code for sex in general and by the 1996 Prostitution Act for paid sex.

What the Penal code says - relevant articles (Title 9, Offenses related to sexuality - ref. http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw50001.pdf):

Section 276 sanctions rape

Section 277 says any sexual act with people under 15 is statutory rape, sex with people under 13 is punished with life or death sentence.

Section 282 severely punishes traficers/purveyors of people of any age for sex.

Section 283 same as 282, only under constraint, punishment is even more severe

Section 286 goes after people who help prostitutes or get money from prostitutes (pimps)

The penal code does not punish sex with people older than 15, but leaves plenty of room for pressing charges for the ages between 15 and 18, the person (or its family) just needs to say that deceit or constraint was used, and this is it.

What the 1996 Prostitution Act says - I selected relevant articles, and leave out most of the provisions on running a brothel and trafficking prostitutes as this is hopefully not what is interesting for the readers here.

http://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/docs/WEBTEXT...63/E96THA01.htm

Section 5 bans open solicitation that is done in "open and shameless manner or causes nuisance to the public". Fine: 1000 baht.

Section 6 bans running a business on prostitution

The Act contains specific definitions that are important:

- "prostitution establishment": means a place established for prostitution or in which the prostitution is allowed, and shall include a place used for soliciting or procuring another person for prostitution;

- "prostitution" means sexual intercourse, or any other act, or the commission of any other act in order to gratify the sexual desire of another person in a promiscuous manner in return for money or any other benefit, irrespective of whether the person who accepts the act and the person who commits the act are of the same sex or not;

=> i.e. the "prostitution establishment" is a place where the acts take place, typically a bar with rooms or massage parlor, etc.

Section 8 punishes sex with a child between 15 and 18 yo INSIDE "prostitution establishments", regardless if consent is given or not. Punishment for sex with children under 15 is more severe.

Section 9 punishes trafficing.

Section 11 severely punishes owners of "prostitution businesses" (i.e. not limited to "prostitution establishments" as defined in the act)

Summary of the 1996 act:

The 1996 Act on Prostitution does not ban paid sex, nor does it ban solicitation if it is done discreetly.

It bans sex with people aged between 15 and 18 INSIDE "prostitution establishments", and punishes even more severely sex with people under 15, as the penal code does already.

Common sense says to leave people under 18 also alone if found outside of "prostitution establishments", who knows what they or their family could imagine telling the cops.

...

In summary:

- sex with people under 13 is a straight ticket to hel_l. Punished by death or life sentence

- sex with people over 13 but under 15 is also very severely punished - 20 years of jail

- sex with people over 15 but under 18 is not directly banned, except in "prostitution establishments". So, this is completely banned in brothels. Outside brothels, if cought in a room by police, they would have no other legal base for an immediate arrest than to alledge coercion or deceit was used. It remains very risky however, since the young person or family could at any time file charges, the Law leaving a lot of room for prosecution. Deceit, coercion, etc. you name it, and this is an excellent opportunity for the Thais to make money. It is also very likely that the court would rule against the pervert farang. So, this is a no-no.

- sex with people aged 18 or older: 18 is the highest age known by both the penal code and the prostitution Act for punishment, so 18 is the safe age to have sex.

This is confirmed by Interpol: http://www.interpol.int/public/Children/Se...csaThailand.asp

For Bar owners, 20 is the safe age for employees.

Edited January 28, 2010 by manarak

[Jingthing]

Great post, Mr. M. Well done. A 5 star effort.

One question though. A bar worker 19 who is working without parental consent (so legal contract); isn't that person also of questionable legality to associate with?

[Bilqis]

Is there a minimum age for posting on this site?

I know that puberty is mainly a (sexual) maturity/adulthood thing isn't it?

So judging by some of the posts on this thread of of the posters would not have reached puberty......are they still allowed to post on this site?

[manarak]

Great post, Mr. M. Well done. A 5 star effort.

One question though. A bar worker 19 who is working without parental consent (so legal contract); isn't that person also of questionable legality to associate with?

Thank you - I put some work in that.

About your question:

Yes, but an "association" is made for a purpose of gaining some advantage, like money, and is situated on the sell side, not on the buy side.

So, as a customer, you are not "associating" with that person.

On the sell side, i.e. for the bar owner, as I said, the safe age for employees is 20, based on the fact that contracts signed by Thai people under 20 are void unless confirmed by their legal guardians, i.e. parents.

And if your question was aiming at an association in a business, yes, one shouldn't associate with people under 20 years of age.

Edited January 28, 2010 by manarak

[wolf5370]

JT it does seem like you are intensionally reading something into posts that just isn't there...

The only reason why the majority of pedophilia involves heterosexuals is that the vast majority of people are, or claim to be, heterosexual. A more interesting study would be of the percentages of each group.

....

Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel your post is intended as some kind of subtle implication that of course the percentage is higher among homosexuals. ....

You may feel this, but I felt that he was poo-pooing an earlier sentiment that said the opposite (from yourself indeed) - just because he says your point is quesationable doesn't mean he believes the polar opposite is true.

Come on guys... Sickness is sickness... i am gay 40 year old and about to marry a 35 years old thai. Now if some of my people come in this country to abuse children, they MUST be prosecuted ! Thanks to Thailand for that, they do their job.

Are you suggesting you are morally superior to a man your age, gay or straight, who couples with a 20 year old Thai?

....

He specifically said children, since when by anyones reckoning has a 20 year old been classed as a child?

Edited January 28, 2010 by wolf5370

[VSteve]

GOOD! Lock him up! I went to Pattaya for a holiday not too long ago. Saw young foreign girls on the street dressed very sexy trying to get customers to go into a club. Made me sick to my stomach. Get all the guys making money off of kids. Disgusts me.

[Jingthing]

JT it does seem like you are intensionally reading something into posts that just isn't there...

Wolf, I reads em as I sees them. My observations are as valid as anyones and I stand by them without further comment. Nothing intensionally (sic) about it. Cheers.

BTW, why not let the actual writers of what I responded to explain their personal motivations? I think they would know best.

As the poster who questioned whether homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children (in the other words, pedophilia), he hasn't yet posted any links about it, so I will post this one which based on my knowledge reflects mainstream psychological thought on the matter.

I don't think anyone will be able to provide any mainstream report refuting it. However you will find hate group propaganda refuting it. Like I said, this reflects the MAINSTREAM --

Conclusion

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML...olestation.html

Now that's out of the way, lets talk about Thailand and Pattaya in general. There is no doubt that Thailand attracts a higher percentage of sexual criminals than the usual tourist destination. Thailand has that reputation and it continues to attract more than the expected share of people coming here to do bad sexual things.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[FlightRisk]

Despicable or not, this individual is innocent until proven guilty, at least under Western international law (which is rarely followed in LOS).

[Jingthing]

Despicable or not, this individual is innocent until proven guilty, at least under Western international law (which is rarely followed in LOS).

Yeah, of course, but the more I hear about this case, the more it sounds like this was a very good catch. What took them so long? He apparently has been operating in Sunnee Plaza for years. That's actually not a flip question. The guy owned a number of places known for this illicit activity. I do wonder what is the REAL story how he was able to get away with it for so long (caching caching?).

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[scania]

Who cares whether it's against gay or straight establishments??? If he's pimpin lil kids he needs to be locked the "F" Up.

Couldn´t agree more, this is as low as people can get.

[Jingthing]

Who cares whether it's against gay or straight establishments??? If he's pimpin lil kids he needs to be locked the "F" Up.

Couldn´t agree more, this is as low as people can get.

Lower than cold blooded premeditated (non self defense) murder? Lower than mass murder? Lower than Hitler/Pol Pot? I think a lot of people think that it is. I never quite understood that from a rational point of view, so those that do, can you please explain? My feeling is that as long as victims are still alive there is still hope for them. Murder victims, it is finished.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[ukrules]

Lower than cold blooded premeditated (non self defense) murder? Lower than mass murder? Lower than Hitler/Pol Pot? I think a lot of people think that it is. I never quite understood that from a rational point of view, so those that do, can you please explain? My feeling is that as long as victims are still alive there is still hope for them. Murder victims, it is finished.

Of course you're right but you are up against ignorant people who's thought processes aren't incorporating logic in any way.

I have read reports in the past where the crime of rape has been described as worse than murder, it's a popular and reasonably common view amongst the ignorant.

[ozzieovaseas]

Who cares whether it's against gay or straight establishments??? If he's pimpin lil kids he needs to be locked the "F" Up.

Couldn´t agree more, this is as low as people can get.

Lower than cold blooded premeditated (non self defense) murder? Lower than mass murder? Lower than Hitler/Pol Pot? I think a lot of people think that it is. I never quite understood that from a rational point of view, so those that do, can you please explain? My feeling is that as long as victims are still alive there is still hope for them. Murder victims, it is finished.

Sad fact is many of the victims who've lived through sexual abuse actually wish they WERE dead.

Edited January 28, 2010 by ozzieovaseas

[manarak]

Lower than cold blooded premeditated (non self defense) murder? Lower than mass murder? Lower than Hitler/Pol Pot? I think a lot of people think that it is. I never quite understood that from a rational point of view, so those that do, can you please explain? My feeling is that as long as victims are still alive there is still hope for them. Murder victims, it is finished.

Of course you're right but you are up against ignorant people who's thought processes aren't incorporating logic in any way.

I have read reports in the past where the crime of rape has been described as worse than murder, it's a popular and reasonably common view amongst the ignorant.

... but that doesn't mean that this debate would lead anywhere...

[Jingthing]

Well maybe the people with those views come from the prison culture. You always hear that in prison (at least in the west) the "short eyes" convicts are the most hated while murderers get respect.

Sad fact is many of the victims who've lived through sexual abuse actually wish they WERE dead.

I don't doubt that is true in some cases.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jingthing

[OzMick]

"The only reason why the majority of pedophilia involves heterosexuals is that the vast majority of people are, or claim to be, heterosexual. A more interesting study would be of the percentages of each group."

Subtle implications are not my thing; I'm more the blunt object type. But I do bristle when I read a post from which I infer that pedophilia is more a straight thing (there are lies, dam_n lies and statistics), and then states that if I don't agree, then I must be uneducated.

[coalminer]

"The only reason why the majority of pedophilia involves heterosexuals is that the vast majority of people are, or claim to be, heterosexual. A more interesting study would be of the percentages of each group."

Subtle implications are not my thing; I'm more the blunt object type. But I do bristle when I read a post from which I infer that pedophilia is more a straight thing (there are lies, dam_n lies and statistics), and then states that if I don't agree, then I must be uneducated.

Pedophilia is a natural phenomenon, a sickness.

Everybody can have it or catch it at a later age.

The same goes for all kinds of "freaky sex" like bestiality, voyeurisme, sadisme, and so on.

Luckely for us, the vast majority of people suffering of this can keep their freakyness under control or find a relieve in watching movies.

I am not trying to condomn these kind of extremismes, but the people who are suffering of this should have the opportunity to get a treatment and not get shot right away.

"A clockwork orange" springs to mind.

Somebody in this thread or another thread wrote that a lot of people suffering from this have the wish to be dead.

That shows the gravity of this sickness and the lack of power to fight against it ny themselves.

I had once a girlfriend who was working in an "elder home" and who was telling me stories about the elderly which once had a normal life and were succesful in their life turn into "abnormal creatures" who had dreams and wanted to see video's about bestiality, pedophilia, and so on.

Before condemning these people to the electric chair, think that you might be in the same shoes as him when you are older.

[kikoman]

I can not believe the mind set of many posters on this thread. Demeaning the damage done to rape victims, and those forced into the bar circus because of economic reasons.

It is a well know fact that many people come to Thailand as Sex Tourist, They come here with the sole intent to become engaged as consumers of the sex trade.

Gays are more excepted by the Thai general population then they are in the Western world. Why the concentrated attacks on the persons that object to the actions of the accused that are referred to as ignorant/discriminatory.

Solely, as this thread addresses the actions of one individual, why the outpouring of such a heated debate with some posters making as many as 10-20 post defending the practice of the Sex Trade , by attacking the Thai enforcement of Thailand's laws and its focus on area that has many gay bars, not all gay bars.

They should remember they are not citizens of this country, many come here solely to partake in illegal activities, The law is focusing on these unwanted individuals, as the person arrested was an outcast within the gay community, of bar owners in the area.

TIT and as such Thai Authorities have the right to defend itself from unwanted actions the threaten its youth.

Much like the U.S. and Europe are doing by excluding those they deem are a threat to the country's moral well being.

Cheers

[Bilqis]

Yes - and in a functioning democracy he is innocent until proved guilty.

[Jingthing]

"The only reason why the majority of pedophilia involves heterosexuals is that the vast majority of people are, or claim to be, heterosexual. A more interesting study would be of the percentages of each group."

Subtle implications are not my thing; I'm more the blunt object type. But I do bristle when I read a post from which I infer that pedophilia is more a straight thing (there are lies, dam_n lies and statistics), and then states that if I don't agree, then I must be uneducated.

OK, I think I see your point now. You thought I was suggesting something that I was not suggesting, and yes of course the small number of homosexuals in the world translates into smaller numbers for that group. However, the chances of a straight man being a pedophile and a gay man being a pedophile are similar. The only source you are going to find that says differently is from some kind of hate group; thank you for not posting those. Many ignorant people believe the hate group propaganda.

Pure Opinion Item

Now I will say something that is politically incorrect and will anger many gay people. I feel that it IS more common among older homosexuals to pursue partners who are young men than heterosexuals. I don't know if that is cultural, the way men are wired, or what. Remember homosexuals are men, not constrained by the female factor. By younger I mean sexually mature young men, not prepubescents. It may be possible that the common false ignorant myth that gays are more likely to be pedophiles partly comes from this phenomena. Here in Pattaya they may see the 60 year old with a 25 year old Thai who looks 16, and think that the gay man is a pedophile, but he actually is not. People confuse attraction with sexually mature young men with attraction to children. I know many straight people also love the young ladies, it is not restricted to gays. Also of course I am not saying that all or even most gay men like the young men.

BTW, I also feel most gay men would actually agree with what I just said. However, many would feel that we shouldn't talk about these kinds of things in mixed company, because people wouldn't understand. However, I disagree, because I feel people need to understand more about the difference between attraction to sexually mature young men and women, and pedophilia. I don't think silence about it helps.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Pedophilia is a natural phenomenon, a sickness.

That is true it is a medical condition. Those afflicted have it for life. However, the trouble is that they have victims, commonly multiple victims and it takes a long time for law enforcement to catch them. So unlike alcoholism which is also a medical problem (except in cases of drunk driver accidents) it is heavily criminalized and understandably so, because of the victims. I think there are fairly effective medical treatments (castration isn't one of them) now for pedophiles but the prevailing public sentiment is always going to be get them off the streets as long as possible. Its understandable. I know something about this because I studied some psych courses in college. not claiming to be an expert.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I can not believe the mind set of many posters on this thread. Demeaning the damage done to rape victims, and those forced into the bar circus because of economic reasons.

Sir, it might be more helpful if you point out a specific post to protest about. Perhaps you were including my comments that murder is the most severe crime because the victim is dead. I think that is logical. That is not the same thing as demeaning victims of other severe crimes. If that's the impression you got, you are mistaken. Indeed the law itself makes distinctions in severity of crimes. In most countries, murder is the most severe crime, again that does not mean that rape and pedophilia are not severe crimes.

BTW, the context of my original comment was in response to another poster who asserted that the Frenchman was the "lowest", I merely responded that logically murderers are actually lower. Again, the law in most countries agrees.

It is a well know fact that many people come to Thailand as Sex Tourist, They come here with the sole intent to become engaged as consumers of the sex trade.

Yes, of course. But the legal age over 18 sex trade is not really an issue in Thailand, now, is it? The upcoming crackdown is more about foreign ownership than an actual effort to stop the legal age sex trade. Edited January 29, 2010 by Jingthing

[basjke]

It is a well know fact that many people come to Thailand as Sex Tourist, They come here with the sole intent to become engaged as consumers of the sex trade.

Yes, of course. But the legal age over 18 sex trade is not really an issue in Thailand, now, is it? The upcoming crackdown is more about foreign ownership than an actual effort to stop the legal age sex trade.

Maybe I missed it but I still didn't read anything yet that clearly stated that sex trade under or over 18 years old is allowed in Thailand.Either by foreigners or Thai citizens.

[Jingthing]

It is a well know fact that many people come to Thailand as Sex Tourist, They come here with the sole intent to become engaged as consumers of the sex trade.

Yes, of course. But the legal age over 18 sex trade is not really an issue in Thailand, now, is it? The upcoming crackdown is more about foreign ownership than an actual effort to stop the legal age sex trade.

Maybe I missed it but I still didn't read anything yet that clearly stated that sex trade under or over 18 years old is allowed in Thailand.Either by foreigners or Thai citizens.

Its hard to respond to that comment in Pattaya without laughing. (Talking about the legal age kind.) Edited January 29, 2010 by Jingthing

[manarak]

It is a well know fact that many people come to Thailand as Sex Tourist, They come here with the sole intent to become engaged as consumers of the sex trade.

Yes, of course. But the legal age over 18 sex trade is not really an issue in Thailand, now, is it? The upcoming crackdown is more about foreign ownership than an actual effort to stop the legal age sex trade.

Maybe I missed it but I still didn't read anything yet that clearly stated that sex trade under or over 18 years old is allowed in Thailand.Either by foreigners or Thai citizens.

You probably missed my post on the previous page then.

1- You won't find any Thai Law saying that paid sex is allowed

2- You won't find any Thai Law saying that paid sex is illegal above 18

=> Conclusion: paid sex is allowed over 18

[basjke]

It is a well know fact that many people come to Thailand as Sex Tourist, They come here with the sole intent to become engaged as consumers of the sex trade.

Yes, of course. But the legal age over 18 sex trade is not really an issue in Thailand, now, is it? The upcoming crackdown is more about foreign ownership than an actual effort to stop the legal age sex trade.

Maybe I missed it but I still didn't read anything yet that clearly stated that sex trade under or over 18 years old is allowed in Thailand.Either by foreigners or Thai citizens.

You probably missed my post on the previous page then.

1- You won't find any Thai Law saying that paid sex is allowed

2- You won't find any Thai Law saying that paid sex is illegal above 18

=> Conclusion: paid sex is allowed over 18

So if something isn't described literal that makes it legal.

So the law doesn't state literal that I can not rob the kasikornbank branch on Pattaya tai road that makes it legal to rob that particular branch?

Edited January 29, 2010 by basjke

[basjke]

It is a well know fact that many people come to Thailand as Sex Tourist, They come here with the sole intent to become engaged as consumers of the sex trade.

Yes, of course. But the legal age over 18 sex trade is not really an issue in Thailand, now, is it? The upcoming crackdown is more about foreign ownership than an actual effort to stop the legal age sex trade.

Maybe I missed it but I still didn't read anything yet that clearly stated that sex trade under or over 18 years old is allowed in Thailand.Either by foreigners or Thai citizens.

Its hard to respond to that comment in Pattaya without laughing. (Talking about the legal age kind.)

The same can be said I assume when I had asked where it says that it is legal to drive a motorbike without helmet.