A Property Question...

[Barack]

Condo..

5.2m in foreign name - 4.2m Thai/company name...

Penny pinching ?? - whats 1m B amongst friends ??

Could one not just purchase the condo under a Thai company then resell the condo to yourself before the developer had finished selling their foreign quota? Obviously you get hit with 3.xx% tax on the transfer, but sure beats paying 1M extra.

No - if sold under Thai quota it doesn't then become part of the Foreign quota by being sold to a Foreigner (even if the Foreign 'quota' is yet to be exhausted).

It's the developer's decision which units are registered as Thai or Foreign.

I bought my condo from a Thai. It doesn't seem that the units themselves are set as a "Thai" unit, or "Foreign" unit (at the land department), but just depends how many other units are registered to foreigners at the time of the transfer?

So let's say you bring your condo deed to the land department to transfer it from your Thai company to your own name, wouldn't they just look in the book and see "Ok, 35% of this building is currently registered to foreigners" and then proceed with the transaction? Or can the developer pre-register the foreign quota at the land department as "foreign owned" even though the units are still actually owned by the developer (so are not actually foreign owned)?

It is my understanding the Land Office does not keep track of foreign ownership. This is the responsibility of the condo's juristic person. The juristic person can be the developer or a management company and they could be the same. If you want to transfer a Thai unit to your name (foreigner name) you must go to the juristic person and be sure the foreign allocation has not been used up. I don't see how a developer could pre-register the foreign quota.

[thaiwanderer]

Even if the foreign quota has not yet been used up the developer (where 1st sale of the particular unit hasn't occured for example) and later the cjp is still in control as to whether it may yet be included in the foreign quota.

The land office do keep records so they can confirm how many units have been registered under the foreign quota HOWEVER the developer and or cjp's confirmation AND co-operation is also still required.

A foreigner wishing to buy a condo unit does not have the right to insist it is sold to them as a foreign unit even if the quota is not yet exhausted.

If you are buying a second hand unit already owned by a foreigner and which you have properly confirmed is registered as a foreign unit tghen that is different.

[PattayaParent]

Even if the foreign quota has not yet been used up the developer (where 1st sale of the particular unit hasn't occured for example) and later the cjp is still in control as to whether it may yet be included in the foreign quota.

The land office do keep records so they can confirm how many units have been registered under the foreign quota HOWEVER the developer and or cjp's confirmation AND co-operation is also still required.

A foreigner wishing to buy a condo unit does not have the right to insist it is sold to them as a foreign unit even if the quota is not yet exhausted.

If you are buying a second hand unit already owned by a foreigner and which you have properly confirmed is registered as a foreign unit tghen that is different.

Then the foreigner would not be able to buy it.

And why would a developer refuse a sale, especially in the current market?

[hhgz]

"no one to my knowledge has ever posted the figures before 24 ish %"

Yeah, for the identical unit, I don't believe it either. Months back, one TVer shopped a unit, and then had his girlfriend do the same. Lo and behold, the price quoted her was cheaper, however, it was for a significantly less well equipped unit. He commented that he bought the unit (at the price his GF was quoted) and, after he outfitted it to the same specs (furniture, kitchen, flooring), the unit cost the same as he was originally quoted.

Most of the posts from those "in-the know" that "farangs are charged more, refuse to name the specific developments. When pressed for a specific example, they simply refuse to respond. So, what's the name and location of the development that charges farangs more for an identical unit?

[thaiwanderer]

Even if the foreign quota has not yet been used up the developer (where 1st sale of the particular unit hasn't occured for example) and later the cjp is still in control as to whether it may yet be included in the foreign quota.

The land office do keep records so they can confirm how many units have been registered under the foreign quota HOWEVER the developer and or cjp's confirmation AND co-operation is also still required.

A foreigner wishing to buy a condo unit does not have the right to insist it is sold to them as a foreign unit even if the quota is not yet exhausted.

If you are buying a second hand unit already owned by a foreigner and which you have properly confirmed is registered as a foreign unit tghen that is different.

Then the foreigner would not be able to buy it, not all units being created equally.

And why would a developer refuse a sale, especially in the current market?

Foreigners 'buy' land and condo units in Thailand all the time without owning them solely in their own personal name.

I was attempting to clarify some confusion I detected in the thread that a unit will necessarily be foreign owned just because the quota isn't exhausted and the prospective buyer is a foreigner.

Regardless of the market, developers may well wish to keep some particular units aside for foreign freehold ownership - which might not be the particular unit a prospective buyer is interested in.

Edited February 1, 2010 by thaiwanderer

[PattayaParent]

^but why would a Farang want to set up a dodgy company with 51% Thai ownership to own a condo that he can own it 100% in his own name?

[123ace]

Upon future re-sale you will compete with new supply that will always absorb the new foreign freehold demand.

My advice would be to buy elsewhere, there is ample new supply in all locations and at most price points.

[thaiwanderer]

^but why would a Farang want to set up a dodgy company with 51% Thai ownership to own a condo that he can own it 100% in his own name?

IF can own in own name then there is no reason to BUT not all condo units were created equally and not all are necessarily available to foreigners.

Edited February 2, 2010 by thaiwanderer

[PattayaParent]

Even if the foreign quota has not yet been used up the developer (where 1st sale of the particular unit hasn't occured for example) and later the cjp is still in control as to whether it may yet be included in the foreign quota.

The land office do keep records so they can confirm how many units have been registered under the foreign quota HOWEVER the developer and or cjp's confirmation AND co-operation is also still required.

A foreigner wishing to buy a condo unit does not have the right to insist it is sold to them as a foreign unit even if the quota is not yet exhausted.

If you are buying a second hand unit already owned by a foreigner and which you have properly confirmed is registered as a foreign unit tghen that is different.

Then the foreigner would not be able to buy it, not all units being created equally.

And why would a developer refuse a sale, especially in the current market?

Foreigners 'buy' land and condo units in Thailand all the time without owning them solely in their own personal name.

I was attempting to clarify some confusion I detected in the thread that a unit will necessarily be foreign owned just because the quota isn't exhausted and the prospective buyer is a foreigner.

Regardless of the market, developers may well wish to keep some particular units aside for foreign freehold ownership - which might not be the particular unit a prospective buyer is interested in.

^ Oi, I didn't say that

See my post #33 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3310667

[thaiwanderer]

Even if the foreign quota has not yet been used up the developer (where 1st sale of the particular unit hasn't occured for example) and later the cjp is still in control as to whether it may yet be included in the foreign quota.

The land office do keep records so they can confirm how many units have been registered under the foreign quota HOWEVER the developer and or cjp's confirmation AND co-operation is also still required.

A foreigner wishing to buy a condo unit does not have the right to insist it is sold to them as a foreign unit even if the quota is not yet exhausted.

If you are buying a second hand unit already owned by a foreigner and which you have properly confirmed is registered as a foreign unit tghen that is different.

Then the foreigner would not be able to buy it, not all units being created equally.

And why would a developer refuse a sale, especially in the current market?

Foreigners 'buy' land and condo units in Thailand all the time without owning them solely in their own personal name.

I was attempting to clarify some confusion I detected in the thread that a unit will necessarily be foreign owned just because the quota isn't exhausted and the prospective buyer is a foreigner.

Regardless of the market, developers may well wish to keep some particular units aside for foreign freehold ownership - which might not be the particular unit a prospective buyer is interested in.

^ Oi, I didn't say that

See my post #33 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3310667

Hadn't seen that - that was the last part of my post - jumped into yours somehow?

Edited February 2, 2010 by thaiwanderer

[PattayaParent]

^but why would a Farang want to set up a dodgy company with 51% Thai ownership to own a condo that he can own it 100% in his own name?

IF can own in own name then there is no reason to BUT not all condo units were created equally and not all are necessarily available to foreigners.

So I'll ask the question again.

"Why would a developer refuse to sell to a foreigner that wanted to put a condo in his own name in the available foreign quota?" Especially in the current market.

[pkrv]

^but why would a Farang want to set up a dodgy company with 51% Thai ownership to own a condo that he can own it 100% in his own name?

IF can own in own name then there is no reason to BUT not all condo units were created equally and not all are necessarily available to foreigners.

So I'll ask the question again.

"Why would a developer refuse to sell to a foreigner that wanted to put a condo in his own name in the available foreign quota?" Especially in the current market.

'PattayaParent' IMO you misunderstood.. Please Rephrase?

Edited February 3, 2010 by pkrv

[PattayaParent]

^

Thaiwanderer said

"A foreigner wishing to buy a condo unit does not have the right to insist it is sold to them as a foreign unit even if the quota is not yet exhausted."

and his reason for this is

"not all condo units were created equally and not all are necessarily available to foreigners."

My question is, why would a developer who has 'allocated" a number of units for the Thai quota refuse to sell one to a foreigner under the foriegn quota?

Why would he prefer NOT to sell a condo and not receive any money, over selling and recover some costs?

[thaiwanderer]

^

Thaiwanderer said

"A foreigner wishing to buy a condo unit does not have the right to insist it is sold to them as a foreign unit even if the quota is not yet exhausted."

and his reason for this is

"not all condo units were created equally and not all are necessarily available to foreigners."

My question is, why would a developer who has 'allocated" a number of units for the Thai quota refuse to sell one to a foreigner under the foriegn quota?

Why would he prefer NOT to sell a condo and not receive any money, over selling and recover some costs?

Because there is more fat on those they had intended to sell to farangs they may not wish to instead do as you suggest - it is their choice though of course economics / hard times MAY dictate that choice you are mistaken if you think every developer must fire sale any unit.

My earlier posts were a correction to the idea that seemed to be supported in the thread that:

farang prospective buyer + farang quota not yet exhausted in particular development = that buyer can have any unit in the development under their own name regardless of anything else and in particular regardless of the developer's wishes

(hence my previous comments)

Edited February 4, 2010 by thaiwanderer

[PattayaParent]

^but we're not talking fire sale.

We're talking a developer has unsold Farang quota and a Farang wants to buy a unit in his name and the developer refuses to sell it?

Not a very good business model.

Edit: and presumably the developer will refuse to sell over the Thai quota to any propsective Thai purchasers too??

Edited February 4, 2010 by PattayaParent

[thaiwanderer]

We must be misunderstanding each other.

There is more profit on any unit if sold to a foreigner as opposed to a Thai.

Not all units in the same development are necessarily the same (size, spec etc).

There is even more profit to be made across the development by wherever possible confining the sales to foreigners to those units that are larger and have higher spec or are otherwise more desirable.

On the same basis developers will be less inclined to sell to Thais over the Thai quota where they have a reasonable expectation of being able to sell all of the foreign quota.

There is no reason why a developer would not or can not diverge from this but there is every reason not to where there is a resonable expectation in the market in whatever area they are operating that they can stick to it in order to maximise profits, which i don't consider a strange business model at all personally.

Edited February 4, 2010 by thaiwanderer

[PhiPhi]

I don't think it's a good idea to go the company ownership route if it can possibly be avoided for the sole reason that every few years someone wants to rejig the alien business act, definitions of what constitutes a Thai or Foreign company and what they can or cannot own, sign for, etc. Couple that with a lack of consistency in protecting prior investments through grandfathering makes it higher risk but then again I don't have a huge tolerance for risk in these sort of circumstances. For example it only takes some bright spark at the revenue department to come up with tax system for these property holding companies that do no real business to ruin revenue or yield. Given the fact that there is so much stock available IMHO you would really have to want the unit to do it through the company route, trust you instincts and I wish you luck with whatever route you decide to take.

PhiPhi

[donx]

^but we're not talking fire sale.

We're talking a developer has unsold Farang quota and a Farang wants to buy a unit in his name and the developer refuses to sell it?

Not a very good business model.

Edit: and presumably the developer will refuse to sell over the Thai quota to any propsective Thai purchasers too??

I agree with what thaiwanderer is saying. In a place like Pattaya where it appears to be much easier to sell out the farang quota than it is to sell to Thai owners, if the OP is allowed to buy a condo for 1 million less than all the other farang who appear willing to pay the extra 1 million, then that is 1 million less for the developer. Obviously, the developer is expecting to be able to sell all of the farang quota condos for a premium. If not, then the price for those condos would not be any different.

[PattayaParent]

^but how does the purchaser know that a unit is in the Thai Quota or Farang Quota?

The developer can just add 1 million to ANY unit that the Farang wants to buy.

[thaiwanderer]

^but how does the purchaser know that a unit is in the Thai Quota or Farang Quota?

The developer can just add 1 million to ANY unit that the Farang wants to buy.

Of course they can (and do) - not sure what difference that makes?

The exact same unit in a particulatr development is still worth more to a foreigner than a thai because the foreigner has less freehold ownership options.

Edited February 5, 2010 by thaiwanderer

[pkrv]

Oh well, I will give this a go - I am not in any sense shape or form happy with the 51/49 % rule. At worst it will serve to piss off Thais who will see their condominium units worth less than a comparable foreign/Farang unit.

Not good for social cohesion.

That said I love Thailand and have chosen to purchase a home here. But as with every decision in life it is yours to do with as you please.

If you are a Farang and some posters here are not, you buy a Farang Quota freehold condominium in your own name/name(s) that's it. This can be independently substantiated by Juristic, and get the Chanott ti din. Do not forget there are always checks and balances in life, oddly this board is one of them. This is why society functions.

Edited February 5, 2010 by pkrv

[PattayaParent]

^but how does the purchaser know that a unit is in the Thai Quota or Farang Quota?

The developer can just add 1 million to ANY unit that the Farang wants to buy.

Of course they can (and do) - not sure what difference that makes?

The exact same unit in a particulatr development is still worth more to a foreigner than a thai because the foreigner has less freehold ownership options.

The difference is that my point is that it doesn't make any difference to the developer what unit he sells to a Thai and what unit he sells to a Farang, but you're saying that some units are only available to Farang and others only available to a Thai.

Remember the 49% / 51% is applicable to floor area, not number of units, so if the developer can sell 49% at a higher price to Farang, does it really matter which 49% it is???

[thaiwanderer]

^but how does the purchaser know that a unit is in the Thai Quota or Farang Quota?

The developer can just add 1 million to ANY unit that the Farang wants to buy.

Of course they can (and do) - not sure what difference that makes?

The exact same unit in a particulatr development is still worth more to a foreigner than a thai because the foreigner has less freehold ownership options.

The difference is that my point is that it doesn't make any difference to the developer what unit he sells to a Thai and what unit he sells to a Farang, but you're saying that some units are only available to Farang and others only available to a Thai.

Remember the 49% / 51% is applicable to floor area, not number of units, so if the developer can sell 49% at a higher price to Farang, does it really matter which 49% it is???

Yes it does matter which 49% (though i never said there are foreign only units)

The same unit if sold to a foreigner will likely command a higher price because the freehold property ownership options available to the foreigner are narrower.

Beyond that there is more money to be made on the development as a whole by selling the bigger, nicer and more desirable units in a particular development to foreigners than to Thais (rather than using up the foreign quota on all the smaller less desirable units).

1 square meter in the penthouse is worth more than 1 square meter in the basement

1 foreign quota square meter anywhere in the development is worth more than 1 thai quota square meter

Your model has the capacity to minimise profits - there's no reason it cannot be followed or market conditions may dictate selling to whoever makes an offer - but why would a developer want to do it?

Edited February 5, 2010 by thaiwanderer

[donx]

^but how does the purchaser know that a unit is in the Thai Quota or Farang Quota?

The developer can just add 1 million to ANY unit that the Farang wants to buy.

Of course they can (and do) - not sure what difference that makes?

The exact same unit in a particulatr development is still worth more to a foreigner than a thai because the foreigner has less freehold ownership options.

The difference is that my point is that it doesn't make any difference to the developer what unit he sells to a Thai and what unit he sells to a Farang, but you're saying that some units are only available to Farang and others only available to a Thai.

Remember the 49% / 51% is applicable to floor area, not number of units, so if the developer can sell 49% at a higher price to Farang, does it really matter which 49% it is???

Let us assume that there is a condo development where all of the units are exactly the same. If there was no Farang quota restriction, all units would be sold for the exact same price. But because there is a restriction on the number of square meters (which in this case equates to a certain number of units) that can be sold to foreigners, the units that can be sold to foreigners command a higher price. And because it will be harder to sell off all of the units, any foreigner willing to purchase a unit using a Thai limited company will be given a discount.

Does this make sense to you?

Doesn't it make sense then that if the OP wants to buy a unit, he either has to pay more for the unit to be put in his name or he needs to put the unit in the name of a Thai or Thai company so that the developer can still sell all of the units that will be put in the name of foreigners at a premium? This is why the OP is finding that some developers are asking for more money for condos put in a foreigner's name.

[PattayaParent]

^I fully understand that Donx, that's not my point.

My point is that a developer can increase the price of ANY unit to a foreigner and so make a sale rather than tell a customer, no you can't buy that unit unless it's in a Thai/company name.

TW - Yes it does matter which 49% (though i never said there are foreign only units)

But you said there are units a foreigner would not be allowed to buy so that must also mean that there are units that ONLY a foreigner CAN buy.

[MJo]

So far all developments i have seen are selling with one price. Can you actually name these developments having dual pricing?

If foreigners are willing to pay more than current market rates, which i doubt, sure that drives the prices up also for Thais.

[Gary A]

Companies like View Talay refuse to guarantee that a unit will be put in your name. A friend of mine fell for their crap and when it came time to get his chanote, he was told the quota was filled. Out of the goodness of their fuzzy little hearts they offered to set up a company for him free of charge. I told him NOT to go for it and to try to get his money back. Of course that was not going to happen. He finally put it in his girlfriends name.

[donx]

My point is that a developer can increase the price of ANY unit to a foreigner and so make a sale rather than tell a customer, no you can't buy that unit unless it's in a Thai/company name.

I don't think thaiwanderer will disagree with you then. I don't read his posts as saying that there are specific units assigned to the foreigner quota like you claim he says.

[thaiwanderer]

I'll give it one last go.......

Example:-

Developer has one condo with 5 penthouses and 20 basic units.

The foreign quota is equal to the 5 penthouse units or 18 basic units or a multitude of other combinations.

The day of sales opening the first person to walk in is a foreigner who wants a basic uint in his own name.

That day the devloper CAN sell any unit to the foreigner but is confident that he can sell all 5 penthouses to foreigners.

Likely he won't want to sell that basic unit to that foreigner then.

6 months later the developer has sold no units at all.

The first day foreigner returns and the developer may well snap his hand off in selling a basic unit.

My original post you disagreed with was my saying that just because a foreigner wants to buy in his own name and the quta is not yet exhausted does not mean that regardless of the unit he wants the developer will want o or have to sell to him.

[PattayaParent]

I didn't disagree that what you said was incorrect TW, just that it would not make business sense to turn away customers when they have money and you have what they want.