PM Abhisit says Thaksin must forego Thai citizenship

[hammered]

Maybe most are missing that it has been a quick and easy point scoring PR exrecise against Thaksin. Hun Sen is going this weekend to wind up Thailand and Thai people. Reminding the Thai people of Thaksin's closeness to Cambodia and ole Hun Sen just before the Thai people get angry over Hun Sen and Cambodia is good politcal capital for at least the short term.

[geriatrickid]

Source: Office of Personnel Management, US Government. Hiring Guidelines Annex: The information contained in this directory should not be considered formal legal advice. It is intended to serve as a quick reference document, summarizing the citizenship laws of foreign nations and providing contact information. You should direct detailed or specific questions to a nation's specific diplomatic representatives.

THAILAND CITIZENSHIP: Citizenship laws are based on the Nationality Act of 1965 with Amendment No.2 AD 1992 and Amendment No.3 AD 1993.

BY BIRTH: Birth within the territory of Thailand does not automatically confer citizenship. A person born of a father or mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom. A person born within the Thai Kingdom except a person of alien parents if, at the time of birth, the father was not married to the mother, unless the mother was given leniency for temporary residence or had been permitted to stay temporarily in the Thai Kingdom, unless she had entered the Kingdom without permission.

BY DESCENT: Child born in wedlock, either of whose parents is a citizen of Thailand, regardless of the child's country of birth. Child born out of wedlock, whose mother is a citizen of Thailand and whose father is unknown or stateless, regardless of the child's country of birth.

BY NATURALIZATION: Before being able to apply for Thai citizenship, the person must have the following qualifications: -Have displayed good behavior. -Have a regular occupation. -Have a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five years. -Have knowledge of Thai language.

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: NOT RECOGNIZED. Exceptions:Child born abroad to Thai parents, who obtains the citizenship of the foreign country of birth, may retain dual citizenship until reaching the age of majority (18). At this point, person must choose which citizenship to retain. A Thai woman who marries a foreign national and acquires her husband's citizenship has technically lost her Thai citizenship. Should the marriage end in death or divorce, the Thai national woman could regain her Thai citizenship. This is an unofficial dual citizenship designed to protect female Thai nationals.

LOSS OF CITIZENSHIP: VOLUNTARY: Voluntary renunciation of citizenship is permitted by Thai law. Contact the Embassy for details and proper paperwork. If a person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of their father desires to retain the other nationality, they must renounce Thai nationality within one year after attaining the age of twenty years.

INVOLUNTARY: The following are grounds for involuntary loss of Thai citizenship: Person voluntarily acquires foreign citizenship. When there exist circumstances suitable for maintaining the security or interests of the State, the government is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who had acquired Thai nationality through naturalization.

[Scott]

There are several things that are being missed.

First, in order to obtain a passport from a country, you do not necessarily have to be a citizen.

Second, the issue of dual nationality is complex. A person can have nationality in two countries with neither of them knowing about the other nationality. Second, one country can't dictate the laws on this issue to another country. For example if a child is born in the US to foreign parents, he is a US citizen. If he must chose his home country (according to thei laws of that country), he doesn't lose his US citizenship.

A few countries will not naturalize you unless you actively renounce citizenship in your home country (I believe Singapore does this).

[way2muchcoffee]

There are several things that are being missed.

If he must chose his home country (according to the laws of that country), he doesn't lose his US citizenship.

That may be true, but the home country has the right to respond by revoking citizenship in that circumstance.

[Bill97]

hmmm. my son has both thai / british citizenship so does this mean he too has to forego his thai citizenship

The son of a friend of mine got a German and Thai passport, but at the age of 18 (still plenty of years to go) he will have to decide, which citizenship he wants to keep. How old is your son?

Germany changed that rule. Now, children born with dual citizenship do NOT need to give up their German passport upon their 18th birthday anymore (I have 3 kids with dual citizenship german/canadian).

m

It is not the German or foreign country law that is relevant, it is the Thai law that states a choice must be made at age 18 or there abouts. Like most Thai laws, they are not always enforced and there are many Thais over 20 years old who have multiple passports and use them as has been mentioned above.

[featography]

That's strange.

There a many Thais who have dual citizenship without problems, though not officially allowed by law it is also not forbidden (as far as I know).

Mr. T. has already passports of some other countries so why was he not required to give up his Thai citizenship before.

Though I support our PM in general I think it has something to do with the fact that the country in question is Cambodia.

opalhort

I called a friend at a western embassy here in Bkk.

Seems that Thailand has specific agreements with some countries to mutally allow two passports, and Cambodia is not on that list, and not surprising regardless of the current political situation between Thailand and Cambodia.

I would love to see this list, possibly also the Thai friends I have living in the States.

[featography]

hmmm. my son has both thai / british citizenship so does this mean he too has to forego his thai citizenship

The son of a friend of mine got a German and Thai passport, but at the age of 18 (still plenty of years to go) he will have to decide, which citizenship he wants to keep. How old is your son?

Germany changed that rule. Now, children born with dual citizenship do NOT need to give up their German passport upon their 18th birthday anymore (I have 3 kids with dual citizenship german/canadian).

m

It is not the German or foreign country law that is relevant, it is the Thai law that states a choice must be made at age 18 or there abouts. Like most Thai laws, they are not always enforced and there are many Thais over 20 years old who have multiple passports and use them as has been mentioned above.

So, tis the wise one that follows the infamous "Bill Clinton rule"; Don't ask, don't tell"

[john b good]

That's strange.

There a many Thais who have dual citizenship without problems, though not officially allowed by law it is also not forbidden (as far as I know).

Mr. T. has already passports of some other countries so why was he not required to give up his Thai citizenship before.

Though I support our PM in general I think it has something to do with the fact that the country in question is Cambodia.

opalhort

Almost every country including US have the same rule but they will be able to stop anyone to have dual citizenship. Also not everyone goes and let the homeland know voluntary that they prefer and want another citizenship, like Mr. T. but he already lost the citizenship anyway since will never be able to come back

"but he already lost the citizenship (I am assuming you are referring to Thailand) anyway"

When did this happen ??

Edited February 6, 2010 by john b good

[harrry]

There are several things that are being missed.

First, in order to obtain a passport from a country, you do not necessarily have to be a citizen.

Second, the issue of dual nationality is complex. A person can have nationality in two countries with neither of them knowing about the other nationality. Second, one country can't dictate the laws on this issue to another country. For example if a child is born in the US to foreign parents, he is a US citizen. If he must chose his home country (according to thei laws of that country), he doesn't lose his US citizenship.

A few countries will not naturalize you unless you actively renounce citizenship in your home country (I believe Singapore does this).

You forgot to say that under certain circumstances the THai Government can revoke the Thai citizenshop of a national if he commits certain acts one of them being taking citerzenship of another country.

Edited February 6, 2010 by harrry

[ratcatcher]

...but he already lost the citizenship anyway since will never be able to come back

From a practical standpoint, yes, one could say that. I think his alignment with Hun Sen was a huge misjudgement of Thai sentiment. But technically the only thing that Thaksin has lost so far (besides all credibility) is his diplomatic credentials. That is, his diplomatic passport has been revoked, though I doubt if he has dutifully returned it. He still holds a perfectly valid personal passport, though at the moment there is an arrest warrant attached to it. Even if that passport gets revoked someday, he would still be a Thai citizen, just devoid of travel privilege (except via his myriad other citizenships). Revoking his actual Thai citizenship (involuntarily) is possible and legal but would be a separate act and require the highest of authorities.

I think that the so-called 'bottom line" here is that in fact the Thai government does not want Thaksin back in this country. better to keep him holed up in Dubai or wherever he's welcome.

His aspirations to ride back into Thailand as a reborn King Taksin leading his peoples red army of liberation are better kept as just a figment of his own fertile imagination.

[Scott]

Many of the instances of dual nationality we are talking about are by right of birth. In taking a new nationality, you do not necessarily have to inform your original country of this fact. In many instances it is completely inadvertent that the Thai gov't would even know about someone having another nationality.

Gov'ts do not routinely give lists to other countries of who their citizens are. How would Thailand know if a person hold's dual citizenship.

In the case of Mr. T., who says he has citizenship from other countries? You can get a passport without being a citizen of a country.

[Scott]

If, for example, you are born with dual US-Thai citizenship, most children upon becoming an adult are advised to chose Thai citizenship because they will not lose their US citizenship. Thailand does not determine citizenship for other countries.

A few countries, such as Singapore, will not naturalize a person unless they actively renounce the citizenship of their home country. This is done in writing and is presented to the Embassy of the home country.

If a US born Thai, for example, officially opted for Thai citizenship, he still retains his US citizenship because he does not have to renounce his US citizenship. If he applied and was accepted as a Singaporean citizen and he said he was Thai and renounced his Thai citizenship, he would still retain his US citizenship.

You can renounce your US citizenship, but that doesn't mean that the US gov't revokes it.

[mahjongguy]

In the case of Mr. T., who says he has citizenship from other countries? You can get a passport without being a citizen of a country.

That's true. Many countries will provide a passport, often a diplomatic passport, to non-citizens. Such is the case, I believe, for that provided to Thaksin by Nicaragua.

But it was Hun Sen himself who sparked this current controversy by saying that Thaksin was now a citizen of Cambodia. Perhaps he did not mean it literally, but many think he did and enjoyed taunting Thailand with it. The PM took it that way and responded accordingly.

[Sabre]

This has nothing to do with Nationality and the person that wrote the article for youe newspaper the Nation should be more thorough instead of spreading gossip.

The Cambodian news link in the Bangkok Post, quite clearly states that he Thaksin was granted Citizenship, NOT change his Nationality. Millions of people in the world have duel citizenship.

Further the Prime Minister of Thailand should read articles before opening his mouth about Nationality when anybody can apply for Citizenship.

I'm a bit slow, so forgive me if the answer to this question is obvious, but what's the difference between 'Nationality' and 'Citizenship'?

[hawthorne]

So finding a law in a book in Thailand is going to set rule and regulation???

And whatever rules are obeyed today can easily be changed with the next PM or Mr T if he makes it back.

Laws mean nothing in a 3rd world country. Don't suggest go breaking any but they can be easily changed with power.

[Richard W]

There is every possibility that the current Thai PM still has his UK passport/citizenship.

What UK passport/citizenship ? OK, his parents were there when he was born, but they were both Thai, so how could he have acquired the right to UK-citizenship?

Jus soli. When he was born, back in 1964, it was enough to be born in the UK without the benefit of diplomatic privileges - the parents didn't even need to be lawfully present.

[aras]

this guy has become a absession lol

[webfact]

Ex-premier Thaksin in Dubai; Still holds Thai nationality

BANGKOK: -- (TNA) – Fugitive, ousted former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is in Dubai, the United Arab Emirates, and not in Cambodia as many have claimed, while he still holds Thai nationality, according to Noppadon Pattama, a legal adviser to Mr Thaksin.

Mr Noppadon disputed earlier claims by Veera Somkwamkid, a leading member of the People's Alliance for Democracy, who said that the ex-premier would travel with Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen to the ancient Preah Vihear temple along the Thai-Khmer border on Saturday.

The report on Mr Thaksin would go with Mr Hun Sen to Preah Vihear temple is totally untrue and is aimed at destroying Mr Thaksin's credibility, Mr Noppadon said.

Touching on a report made by a spokesman of the ruling Democrat Party that Mr Thaksin has changed his nationality to Cambodian, Mr Noppadon said the ousted premier had never thought of changing his nationality.

On Friday, Cambodian government spokesman said in Phnom Penh that his government had never granted Cambodian citizenship to Mr Thaksin.

Cambodia late last year appointed Mr Thaksin, ousted in a bloodless coup in September 2006, as its special economic adviser. The appointment and Mr Thaksin's subsequent visit to Cambodia angered the Thai government and resulted in a mutual recall of ambassadors.

Mr Noppadon went on to say that the Democrat Party issued such fabricated reports, and would continue to do so until late this month when Bangkok court will rule on whether the frozen assets worth Bt76.6 billion claimed by Mr Thaksin and his family should be seized by the state.

The court is scheduled to issue its verdict on February 26. (TNA)

-- TNA 2010-02-07

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[CLOD]

Abisit should have made it clear it was only his opinion he was giving, and who gives a toss about that.

He certainly was not speaking for the thai people.

He has no mandate.

[Ricardo]

There is every possibility that the current Thai PM still has his UK passport/citizenship.

What UK passport/citizenship ? OK, his parents were there when he was born, but they were both Thai, so how could he have acquired the right to UK-citizenship?

Jus soli. When he was born, back in 1964, it was enough to be born in the UK without the benefit of diplomatic privileges - the parents didn't even need to be lawfully present.

Thanks for that ... it certainly isn't the case any more.

I rather suspect, that his mother was present, for the birth !

[Valentine]

Abisit should have made it clear it was only his opinion he was giving, and who gives a toss about that.

He certainly was not speaking for the thai people.

He has no mandate.

He has a perfectly legal mandate as he is an elected politician & was elected by parliament to be PM.

[Bagwan]

I rather suspect, that his mother was present, for the birth !

This, if true, is an interesting concept. Do you think that it will ever be accepted as common practice worldwide?

[SpoliaOpima]

Almost every country including US have the same rule but they will be able to stop anyone to have dual citizenship. Also not everyone goes and let the homeland know voluntary that they prefer and want another citizenship, like Mr. T. but he already lost the citizenship anyway since will never be able to come back

No the US doesn't have forbid dual nationality for its citizens.

[Arkady]

If Thaksin's Father was born in Thailand I cannot see how citezenship could be revoked. I thinkrevokation can only be done if the Father was a naturalized thai.

I cannot find any reference for this but my wife says that Thaksin's father was born in China.

Section 15. Section 17 of the Nationality Act 1965 (B.E. 2508) shall be

repealed and replaced by the following:

“Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of

the person having been born within the Kingdom of Thailand to an alien father or

mother, the person’s Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) The person has resided in a foreign country, of which the father or

mother has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of

more than five years from the day of the person became sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that the person makes use of the

nationality of the father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that

the person has an active interest in the nationality of the father,

mother, or in a foreign nationality;

(3) The person commits any act prejudicial to the security or

conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult

to the nation;

(4) The person commits any act contrary to public order or good

morals.

Your interpretation is only correct in respect of the 1965 Nationality Act before it was amended by the 1992 Nationality Act. Before 1992 Thai nationality by descent could only be transmitted to offspring of Thai fathers or Thai mothers in the case where it was not known who the father was. Since the repeal of the patrilineage rule was retroactive, the clause you mention is now virtually redundant because it only refers to the very narrow case of those who are Thai by birth by virtue of being born within the Kingdom to alien parents who were both permanent residents of Thailand. The wording was in fact designed to apply to the large pool of people, largely of Chinese origin, that were Thai by virtue of being born to alien parents who, prior to 1971 didn't have to be permanent residents. Since the requirement for parents to be permanent residents was introduced in 1971, this means of being Thai by birth in Thailand was effectively closed but the clause remains. I think that Thaksin's father was in fact born in Thailand but, even if he were born in China, as your wife believes, this would only be relevant to Thaksin's citizenship today, if his mother were also born outside Thailand.

Anyway, Abhisit is clearly wrong, unless of course it can be proved that both Thaksin's parents were born outside Thailand and that neither had not become naturalized Thais by the time Thaksin was born. There is no provision under The Nationality Act for the involuntary revocation of citizenship from a Thai who is Thai by descent from a Thai parent. I think this is just part of the Dem Party's spin machine trying to play up the Thai distrust of Khmers and fill up headlines until after the Supreme Court case is over. Why let the facts get in the way of a good story? Most Thais will readily believe what Abhisit is saying and then it can be forgotten about, once it has served its purpose. It is not worth changing the law and cutting off thousands of dual nationals (largely look krueng), just to spite Thaksin. Anyway this would have to be done through Parliament and could not be done before the ruling on Thaksin's assets.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Arkady

[Arkady]

Source: Office of Personnel Management, US Government. Hiring Guidelines Annex: The information contained in this directory should not be considered formal legal advice. It is intended to serve as a quick reference document, summarizing the citizenship laws of foreign nations and providing contact information. You should direct detailed or specific questions to a nation's specific diplomatic representatives.

THAILAND CITIZENSHIP: Citizenship laws are based on the Nationality Act of 1965 with Amendment No.2 AD 1992 and Amendment No.3 AD 1993.

BY BIRTH: Birth within the territory of Thailand does not automatically confer citizenship. A person born of a father or mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom. A person born within the Thai Kingdom except a person of alien parents if, at the time of birth, the father was not married to the mother, unless the mother was given leniency for temporary residence or had been permitted to stay temporarily in the Thai Kingdom, unless she had entered the Kingdom without permission.

BY DESCENT: Child born in wedlock, either of whose parents is a citizen of Thailand, regardless of the child's country of birth. Child born out of wedlock, whose mother is a citizen of Thailand and whose father is unknown or stateless, regardless of the child's country of birth.

BY NATURALIZATION: Before being able to apply for Thai citizenship, the person must have the following qualifications: -Have displayed good behavior. -Have a regular occupation. -Have a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five years. -Have knowledge of Thai language.

DUAL CITIZENSHIP: NOT RECOGNIZED. Exceptions:Child born abroad to Thai parents, who obtains the citizenship of the foreign country of birth, may retain dual citizenship until reaching the age of majority (18). At this point, person must choose which citizenship to retain. A Thai woman who marries a foreign national and acquires her husband's citizenship has technically lost her Thai citizenship. Should the marriage end in death or divorce, the Thai national woman could regain her Thai citizenship. This is an unofficial dual citizenship designed to protect female Thai nationals.

LOSS OF CITIZENSHIP: VOLUNTARY: Voluntary renunciation of citizenship is permitted by Thai law. Contact the Embassy for details and proper paperwork. If a person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of their father desires to retain the other nationality, they must renounce Thai nationality within one year after attaining the age of twenty years.

INVOLUNTARY: The following are grounds for involuntary loss of Thai citizenship: Person voluntarily acquires foreign citizenship. When there exist circumstances suitable for maintaining the security or interests of the State, the government is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who had acquired Thai nationality through naturalization.

This is mainly rubbish. I would strongly advise reading The Thai Nationality Act with all amendments, including the latest 2008 amendments to get a true picture, rather than relying on misinformation for the US Office of Personnel Management. It is not very long or difficult to understand.

[brahmburgers]

In the chess game called Thai politics, Abhisit just scored.

[CLOD]

Abisit should have made it clear it was only his opinion he was giving, and who gives a toss about that.

He certainly was not speaking for the thai people.

He has no mandate.

He has a perfectly legal mandate as he is an elected politician & was elected by parliament to be PM.

He is not speaking for the thai people.

He was installed by a Military Junta and is supported by a Military Junta appointed judiciary.

He would be better calling an election to test the peoples view on matters, rather than continuing to perpatrate Human Rights Abuses on the thai people, as detailed in the Human Rights Watch charge sheet.

No getting away from it

[rixalex]

He is not speaking for the thai people.

He was installed by a Military Junta and is supported by a Military Junta appointed judiciary.

He would be better calling an election to test the peoples view on matters, rather than continuing to perpatrate Human Rights Abuses on the thai people, as detailed in the Human Rights Watch charge sheet.

No getting away from it

At any given time there always seems to be a certain number of members of the forum like you, who come day-after-day to simple parrot the same one-liners. You rarely ever expand or give any reasoning. Just trotting out the same old lines without engaging in actual debate. The good thing is these members don't last long, the bad thing is a fresh one always seems to take their place.

The forum is a better place for having a wide spectrum of views, even the extreme, but this sort of repititious droning of mistruths and lies adds nothing of value whatsoever.

[scorecard]

Abisit should have made it clear it was only his opinion he was giving, and who gives a toss about that.

He certainly was not speaking for the thai people.

He has no mandate.

He has a perfectly legal mandate as he is an elected politician & was elected by parliament to be PM.

He is not speaking for the thai people.

He was installed by a Military Junta and is supported by a Military Junta appointed judiciary.

He would be better calling an election to test the peoples view on matters, rather than continuing to perpatrate Human Rights Abuses on the thai people, as detailed in the Human Rights Watch charge sheet.

No getting away from it

Don't agree at all!!!!

Abhisit was installed through proper process and that's a fact which has been debated and explained here more times than you can count.

If thaksin was still PM they we would all be lively in a dictatorship looking every day more like Burma. No thanks.

Abhisit and Korn are making progress and they will be recognised for it in the future.

[animatic]

I rather suspect, that his mother was present, for the birth !

This, if true, is an interesting concept. Do you think that it will ever be accepted as common practice worldwide?

It may catch on, they have been practicing a lot lately.

Especially in Pattaya!