Dog Debarking Surgery

[sleepyjohn]

Hi there

I have a real problem with a neighbour's dogs barking. I and others are woken up, particularly by the female, which emits a truly disturbing screaming bark as if it's being attacked, most mornings and sometimes at night. Prior to further discussion I would like to know my options (screening may work but the female is very sensitive indeed to noise).

Before the cruelty brigade rushes in, I am a dog lover. All the dogs in question have been wild and adopted, including one that's mostly mine, but who's no problem. I used to take all these dogs for walks, and have injected them all for heartworm myself. I recently paid for an operation for an unrelated dog which had an accident. The "owner" has tried inviting the people the dog barks at to visit to try to adapt the dogs to them, with no joy.

Another neighbour uses a dog collar, but this seems to me an unattractive option, as the dog gets shocked as repeatedly as it barks. I read that debarking surgery causes little or no problems. Seems to me a better option than severely limiting the freedom of movement of the dog, which is happy to be free to roam at the moment.

I have to think about my own health and lack of sleep several days a week makes a huge difference to the way i feel. Not to mention I have a tumour in my neck and would like all the resilience I can get from good sleep.

So.

Anyone know any details about getting this done in CM? Where/how much/follow up?

thanx v much

Edited February 9, 2010 by sleepyjohn

[Nienke]

The surgery itself may not be such a biggy, but the stress you provide to the animal afterwards is and that's life-long.

Debarking a dog falls under the chapter of animal abuse.

The "owner" has tried inviting the people the dog barks at to visit to try to adapt the dogs to them, with no joy.

The good intention was there, but most probably there was something lacking concerning a correct behavior modification procedure.

Another neighbour uses a dog collar, but this seems to me an unattractive option, as the dog gets shocked as repeatedly as it barks.

I agree with you, a very unattractive option.

Why not limit the freedom of the dog(s) in the night and let her/ them roam free during the day?

[sleepyjohn]

The surgery itself may not be such a biggy, but the stress you provide to the animal afterwards is and that's life-long.

Debarking a dog falls under the chapter of animal abuse.

Care to expand Nienke?

John

Edited February 9, 2010 by sleepyjohn

[Nienke]

Dogs also use their voices to communicate. They have several different ways of barking and growling through which they call out for danger, call the others, and express the mood they are in.

Now imagine yourself in, for example, frightful situations and you can't call for help, scream, or tell the other off.

You can't tell someone to stop being annoying, you can't call your friend in a distance to tell him that a car is approaching just when he is planning to cross the street. etc etc.

Pretty stressful, I imagine.

By cutting their vocal cords, you severely disable them in their ability to communicate.

[neverdie]

Dogs also use their voices to communicate. They have several different ways of barking and growling through which they call out for danger, call the others, and express the mood they are in.

Now imagine yourself in, for example, frightful situations and you can't call for help, scream, or tell the other off.

You can't tell someone to stop being annoying, you can't call your friend in a distance to tell him that a car is approaching just when he is planning to cross the street. etc etc.

Pretty stressful, I imagine.

By cutting their vocal cords, you severely disable them in their ability to communicate.

This is true, but the idea of shocking them when they bark, works for me.

Also, there is another type of barking collar available that doesnt use shock but releases citronella, which the dogs apparently hate the smell of. I dont know where you can get either collar in thailand.

[sleepyjohn]

Thankyou for your opinion Nienke, however it seems to me we need a balance here.

(interrupted by two dogs barking)

I'm not persuaded that a dog living a nice cosy life in an enclosed community with no real danger is actually going to be affected badly at all. She was just barking at the workmen and she's walking after them barking loudly but in a very relaxed way.....it's just a habit. What's far worse is today I saw my dog copying her. This is a useless habit being propagated.

I, on the other hand, (and surely several other neighbours) am undergoing very real effects from poor sleep.

Yesterday I started feeling dizzy from it, and as I said i have health problems. I don't think it can be very nice for the workmen being audibly attacked again and again.....what about their feelings?

I have read quite a few opinions on the internet that seem to be more appeals to emotion and quite unevidenced, but read from a vet and a very experienced dog owner of 40 years that they can discern no ill effects at all from debarking.

I know we're living in the country where many owners let their dogs run out and attack people on bikes or just taking a walk as if it's normal. It's not like I want to have her debarked but hey life's not 100% perfect (though this dog's life more or less is)....

Your further comments as a fellow dog lover are of course welcome

Edited February 10, 2010 by sleepyjohn

[Totster]

John, you can't just remove a dogs ability to communicate because you are not getting enough sleep. Imagine being taken into hospital, and when waking up you can't talk anymore, you open your mouth and nothing..IMHO putting the poor thing down would be less cruel.

There are obviously underlying factors that are causing this dog to bark, which need to be investigated.

Totster

[sleepyjohn]

John, you can't just remove a dogs ability to communicate because you are not getting enough sleep. Imagine being taken into hospital, and when waking up you can't talk anymore, you open your mouth and nothing..IMHO putting the poor thing down would be less cruel.

There are obviously underlying factors that are causing this dog to bark, which need to be investigated.

Totster

Thankyou Totster

I know the underlying factors.

The dogs, when they were taken in, already had the barking habit. They then used to all but attack the workmen every time they came near, who stupidly responded by goading them but have been talked to and are every careful not to now. The men have been encouraged to come in and spend extended time with the dogs because it is such a problem., but the habit is too engrained and other outsiders go past sometimes, and even if it's a friend of the dogs they bark first and ask questions afterwards. I must say I'm amazed that the dogs ability to go "bark bark don't come here!" is considered so highly at the expense of other also sentient beings and amazed at your suggestion it would be less cruel to put the dog down than let it live an almost perfect existence. What's the evidence for all this dog stress and how does one balance it against others' stress?

Edited February 10, 2010 by sleepyjohn

[skippybangkok]

Interested - but in de-meow-ing. Have a lovely cat, follows me non stop everywhere ( no joke ). Down side is she needs a constant pat, if not Meowwwwwwwwwwww. Few times a day is ok, but litterly hundreds of times a day drives you nuts, and is not conducive to my work too.

[Totster]

John, I empathise as I have been in a similar situation. When I worked nights in the UK a neighbours dog used to be tethered in the garden during the day when they were at work.. the dog used to bark and cry all day, making things somewhat miserable. However I never considered such arbitrary action as to remove that dogs voice.

And yes, I do think that putting the dog down is less cruel than removing it's bark, but that's not to say I favor this.. just that it's less cruel in way of comparison.

How about using a muzzle on the dog overnight ?

Totster

edit/ - choice of word

Edited February 10, 2010 by Totster

[sleepyjohn]

How about using a muzzle on the dog overnight ?

Totster

I would see that as a worse solution only somewhat better than the shock collar except it now can't defend itself.....AND you're stopping the dog "communicating" anyway.

[Totster]

How about using a muzzle on the dog overnight ?

Totster

I would see that as a worse solution only somewhat better than the shock collar except it now can't defend itself.....AND you're stopping the dog "communicating" anyway.

Not permanently

totster

[Nienke]

Oops, reminder to self. Read the former post before you posts yours hours later!

Edited February 10, 2010 by Nienke

[Nienke]

How about using a muzzle on the dog overnight ?

Totster

I would see that as a worse solution only somewhat better than the shock collar except it now can't defend itself.....AND you're stopping the dog "communicating" anyway.

Why you don't confine the dogs during the night as I've suggested before?

As for the workmen and the dogs' barking: the dogs obviously had a bad experience with them. Changing their minds takes time, effort and correct behavior on the part of the workmen. My guess is something went wrong there during the process. But then, it's more difficult to train/teach people then dogs.

As for some other remarks about the debarking; I googled 'debarking dogs' and found also: debarking is banned in the UK, several European countries, and in Australia it's allowed only <investigation by an authorised officer of the municipality confirms that despite every reasonable effort by the owner to discourage the dog from barking by considerate care, training and management the dog continues to bark persistently>

The Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) states that it is "opposed to the debarking of dogs except as a last resort and unless and until all appropriate behavioral solutions have been explored and exhausted"

Debarking a dog without addressing all possible options to tackle the excessive barking in a correct way first, is IMO cruel.

And mind you, I do know about becoming dizzy as a result of lack of sleep due to whining and barking of stressed dogs at night. These dogs I usually take in the house. And only on rare exceptions that doesn't do the trick in the end.

[VocalNeal]

There is another thread in the same vein today. As you have tried the walking which was recommended. According to barkingdogs.net the next would be Prozac or cheap generic equiv.

As I write this a dog down the street has started to bark.

[skippybangkok]

How about using a muzzle on the dog overnight ?

Totster

I would see that as a worse solution only somewhat better than the shock collar except it now can't defend itself.....AND you're stopping the dog "communicating" anyway.

Must be a female dog

[neverdie]

This can become quite a serious issue and the health effects that sleepyjohn talks about are real, I read up on this some months ago & there is good information about this all available on the internet.

What it comes down to in the end, is the health of the people subjected to the dogs uncontrolled barking verses that of the dog itself. I have a neighbour with several barking dogs and I will admit (whilst being a dog lover) I have thought of evil ways of stopping the barking for once and for all.

The owners of the dogs I am talking about are indifferent to the barking and the laws here in LOS don't really address these types of issues, afterall its up to the dog if it wants to bark, right?

[Crossy]

I've removed a post suggesting the use of the Ultimate Solution (in an unpleasant manner), let's keep on topic here people.

On Topic.

Debarking (as well as declawing cats and docking of dogs ears and tails) is illegal in the UK and IMHO rightly so.

Sadly, as noted in previous posts, changing the behaviour of a troublesome dog takes much patience (more than many dog owners possess).

[Patsycat]

When I was a teenager I babysat for a couple who had a dog that had been debarked. It made a sort of horrible croaking noise, which I remember to this day. I have a friend who had a de-clawed cat that bit at anything and everything.

[neverdie]

When I was a teenager I babysat for a couple who had a dog that had been debarked. It made a sort of horrible croaking noise, which I remember to this day. I have a friend who had a de-clawed cat that bit at anything and everything.

Ive thought about having one of our resident posters declawed and detoothed, she gets a bit wild, you might know her patsyCAT?

[Patsycat]

Have no idea whom you may be referring to!!!

[F1fanatic]

Only just come across this thread and find it horrifying that anyone in their right mind would take out a dog's vocal chords! For Christ's sake - how sick do you have to be to do that??

If you really are so unable to train your dogs to stop barking after the initial 'warning' barks (which are great - they frighten intruders away), then find a 'shock' collar. I gather they also have a 'pulse' option, which stops your dog without hurting them.

Also have to say that I went on ONE holiday to the USA to meet with people that (as I found out) had de-clawed their cat..... Realised immediately I had nothing in common with them, anyone who will mutilate their animals to prevent damage to their furniture is not somebody I would care to be associated with.

Mind you, they also hated black people! What more can I say about people who are happy to mutilate animals/people??

Edited February 18, 2010 by F1fanatic

[Camelot]

Fortunately vets in Thailand do not torture animals this way. Ask them and you will be quickly shown the door.

Buddhism does not condone such cruel and barbaric practices as "debarking" and "declawing" or any other type of vicious animal abuse.

Another reason I'm so glad I live here.

[isanbirder]

Fortunately vets in Thailand do not torture animals this way. Ask them and you will be quickly shown the door.

Buddhism does not condone such cruel and barbaric practices as "debarking" and "declawing" or any other type of vicious animal abuse.

Another reason I'm so glad I live here.

I fully agree, Camelot (and Nienke etc)... especially the words "cruel and barbaric".

[Nienke]

Sorry, isanbirder, unfortunately I do know vets who do debark and declaw the animal without a wimper or considering to advise the owner to try behavior modification.

[Nienke]

Sorry, Camelot, unfortunately I do know vets who do debark or declaw the animal without a wimper or considering to advise the owner to try behavior modification.

@F1fanatic: since when are shock collars humane without hurting the dog?

Edited February 19, 2010 by Nienke

[isanbirder]

Sorry, isanbirder, unfortunately I do know vets who do debark and declaw the animal without a wimper or considering to advise the owner to try behavior modification.

I'd just read the thread for the first time and was so angry at the whole idea that I reacted to the words "cruel and barbaric" which I agreed with. I admit I didn't really take in the first sentence... I know it happens. Compare the abhorrent idea of 'decrying' a baby... depriving it of its main means of communication..... because that is what debarking would do.

I sympathise with OP's health problems, but I'm not sure there's anything which can be done. Usually, continuous barking means a dog is bored or unhappy... though I once had a Bangkaew which would not stop barking when a particular friend visited the house (and the friend was a dog-lover himself).

[Camelot]

Nienke, I believe you and always have great respect for your opinions.

I have known our Thai family vet for many years and she runs an animal hospital on Rama III Road in Bangkok. She is also a university lecturer, although I don't know how she finds the time.

I've discussed these inhumane practices with her several times over the years and she is adamant that "debarking" and "declawing" are frowned upon in a Buddhist society and not practised here. At least that's the way I've interpreted her comments. Perhaps there was an element of wishful thinking there as well that I misunderstood.

I'm so sorry to hear that they are, although I'm sure that they're not as widely practised as overseas.

"Debarking" removes a dog's ability to communicate while "declawing" leaves a cat unable to defend itself and makes it less agile and mobile.

I don't know how vets who mutilate animals this way can sleep at night. Don't they take any kind of a Hippocratic oath? Isn't compassion and a love of animals a prerequisite for the job? I guess not in all cases.

[britmaveric]

shock collar is the best. Learned behaviour so to speak...

[isanbirder]

shock collar is the best. Learned behaviour so to speak...

On the vets who do such surgery? That's where it belongs.